You Can’t Market Your Way Out of a Bad Experience

0:00Katie Cline: I'm David Goldstein, and you're listening to Sweet Success.

0:07David Goldstein: You've just checked in to Sweet Success. Join me, Katie Cline, for exclusive conversations with hotel executives, hospitality leaders, and industry innovators. Together, we'll uncover the strategies and techniques these masters of hospitality relentlessly refine. Whether you're already in the industry or just starting out, tune in every week to unlock the secret to your sweet success.

0:36David Goldstein: Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Sweet Success. I'm your host, Katie Klein, and today I'm thrilled to welcome David Goldstein to the show. David is the president and chief executive officer of Travel Alberta, the destination management organization responsible for developing and promoting Alberta Canada to the world. With more than 30 years of leadership experience across tourism, media, and the public and private sectors, David has built a career around strengthening Canada's global tourism competitiveness while driving meaningful economic impact. Before joining Travel Alberta, David held executive leadership roles with Destination Canada and the Tourism Industry Association of Canada.

1:17David Goldstein: He also served as the Deputy Minister of Tourism and Sport for the Government of Alberta for nearly three years. David, thank you so much for joining us today.

1:27Katie Cline: Thanks a lot, Katie. And I think that bio is the favourite of my mom's book club. Thanks for struggling through that. I'm not sure I like the 30 years piece, but I'll get over that. That's just my vanity. It gives gravity. I'm ready to join you today.

1:41David Goldstein: And moms of my guests are my sweet spot of listeners. So I'm happy.

1:46Katie Cline: You're going to have huge listenership from Sandra Goldstein and the lady.

1:51David Goldstein: Hi, Sandra. We're happy you're listening. Thanks for joining us. So, David, before we started recording, you were telling me you have a bit of a broadcast background in addition to all of your amazing work within government affairs and now travel and tourism. So give us a bit of background on your career history.

2:06Katie Cline: Since 30 years is too long. you don't have time today but I grew up as a kid enthralled with uh broadcast media and politics uh and uh I guess my career trajectory changed when I realized I was a failed documentary maker in my early 20s uh and which led to a series of uh you know a series of sort of accelerated jobs within the media business here in Canada uh ending up with a company that's now known It's now known as Bell Media. It's the largest private media company in the country. And I was the senior vice president of government regulatory affairs. Very challenging time for that business. And then lo and behold, a headhunter called me about an opportunity with the Tourism Industry Association of Canada.

2:57Katie Cline: And my career took a bit of a left turn. And I'm grateful for that. I would just share with your listeners that, you know, a mentor once said to me that, you know, when you're young and ambitious and you're climbing up the ladder really fast, sometimes the higher you get up the ladder, the harder it is to jump to another ladder. It takes a little bit of courage to do that. And I'm, boy, I'm glad I did.

3:25David Goldstein: I love that. But also when you said you were a failed documentary maker in your 20s, it did make me think, can we really fail in our 20s? Or was that just like a learning experience for you that has led to an incredible career that you've created? Well, I'd like to think, not to think, I believe that like good entrepreneurs, you have to fail a few times to succeed.

3:48Katie Cline: But that's where you learn. You learn what you're good at. And I don't think, I think it's, it's, it's something that happens in our twenties. It's like when you're learning to ski, when you're young, you don't, you don't care about falling down. All right. And you, you, you, your, your body's still elastic. You're prepared to take more risks. Um, and so, yeah, I, I think you're right. I, I, I don't think you really fail in your twenties. I think, uh, uh, I think you learn your path. And, uh, I would say that my, what that propelled me into the media business, which has helped me enormously here because I sit across the table from ad agencies.

4:24Katie Cline: I sit across the table from media buyers and I understand, I actually, I know what they're selling. Like I can actually critically go through media plans, but just understanding that side of the media business from that perspective, I think helps people in the marketing and advertising business enormously.

4:45David Goldstein: Yeah, I think anytime someone is sitting in the top seat and remembers those experiences, it's going to be extremely helpful. The amount of people who are in the C-suite that I start to wonder, have you ever had an entry-level job? Do you remember how challenging certain bits could be? It's really helpful, I think, if you can empathize with your team. But I want to go back to what you said about when you're young and ambitious, it gets harder to jump as you climb the ladder. Was that your experience? Because it sounds like as you climb the ladder, you had more recruiters paying attention to you.

5:20Katie Cline: Katie, I don't we don't have enough time today, but I don't think it was that crazy in hindsight, obviously, because it was a successful leap. but you know it's a different stage of life you know young family uh you know sort of you've got really really good at a core series of things including in the media business at the time and and and you know embarking on a whole new venture is um something that is I think more within the spirit of entrepreneurs like I know I I know and have our friends with and was for a certain period of my life, an entrepreneur. And you have to be okay with that. I think that's the toughest thing that folks, I hate to say the term like mid, late career, have a real difficult time with that because you get very comfortable about who you are and where you are and status and position.

6:13Katie Cline: And sometimes a jump is the best thing you can do for yourself.

6:16David Goldstein: And you said was an entrepreneur. Do you think that ever really leaves you? Or even though you're in a quote unquote more corporate job now, you probably still have a lot of that entrepreneurial mindset that you bring to work every day.

6:30Katie Cline: Well, and I think that's the difference with what we bring to Travel Alberta because, uh, that, you know, my, there's myself, there's my, uh, my chief commercial officer, John Mello came from Fairmont four seasons. Uh, there's my chief marketing officer who spent time in the tech business before she got here. Like, like we have, this is a government owned agency, but we have infused a culture of entrepreneurial spirit because that's the industry we serve. You know, the, the, the industry we serve is predominantly small and medium sized enterprises. And you have to think about, even though I don't have a cash register, I have to think about the cash register every day.

7:11Katie Cline: I have to think about how we're going to stimulate success or help stimulate success for those folks across the province. I refer to us as the espresso. Like I can't take credit for the entire visitor economy here in Alberta. We stimulate almost a billion dollars worth of activity here. I'm like the espresso in the demand curve. That's the stimulant.

7:35David Goldstein: for my week.

7:37Katie Cline: And I think sometimes organizations like ours have to share that perspective with entrepreneurs.

7:44David Goldstein: Yeah, I'm really resonating with a lot of what you're saying. I am a mom of two young kids. I recently left my corporate career to pursue entrepreneurship. And you see a lot of that quote out there that's like, this most successful people are the ones who have just failed more than everybody else. And I hear that in a lot of what you're saying right now.

8:04Katie Cline: Yeah, there's some pain points. And anyway, you've got to be okay with it.

8:09David Goldstein: Yeah. And so within travel and tourism, now that you've seen it from like the government affairs side, as well as in your current role, how do you think as an industry we're doing in terms of our ability to try things, to fail, to do things differently, to truly innovate?

8:25Katie Cline: it well you know again that's a pretty broad statement and there's a lot of different segments of the business um some of them are living a very old school model uh some of them are cutting edge and trying very hard uh to meet where the customer either is or is going to be uh like i love the steve jobs line that you know the the consumer doesn't know what they want because they haven't seen it yet. Um, and you know, it takes really cutting edge entrepreneurs, uh, to do that type of activity. We're fortunate here in Alberta that the province has given us the, the investment level to invest with, and in those SMEs, those, those operators to change, to do creative stuff, some cutting edge stuff that sort of traditional lenders or, or, or investors may not, may not do in and of themselves.

9:19Katie Cline: It allows us to push with entrepreneurs a varying array of products and destinations throughout the province that we believe is going to give us an edge.

9:33David Goldstein: Can you give any examples of those?

9:36Katie Cline: Yeah, I immediately think to the Indigenous tourism. So we're the largest provincial investor in indigenous tourism in the country. We see it as both authentic and sustainable and important from a cultural perspective as to who we are as Albertans, as to what we want to share with international clients. We have made probably$5 or$6 million worth of investments over the last two or three years in actual indigenous properties. So that's not just marketing support. That's actually helping them sort of get their new product off the ground. So there's a fantastic experience called Métis Crossing, which is just a little bit north of Edmonton, which originally was a Métis settlement made for your listeners around the world.

10:30Katie Cline: The Métis are one of the peoples of First Nations or the Indigenous nations here in Canada. and they had this dream of sky watching domes, so unique accommodations. So they had a boutique hotel and they wanted to do sky watching domes so you could watch Northern Lights while you were lying in bed. And so our initial investment, I think it was half a million dollars, helped stimulate that additional development there. And now I think they have nine or ten of those domes and they're really quite spectacular. And, you know, I'm sure we'll give you the link to that. So your viewers or listeners can take a look at that.

11:14Katie Cline: Blackfoot Crossing is another one just south of us where it's kind of a glamping operation, but you're you're you get to stay in authentic teepees, indigenous teepees. And you are guided. You can you can book guiding opportunities. So so that's those are a couple of examples, Katie. But they run the gamut from distillery experiences. So, you know, um, lots of folks, uh, have decided they want to be in the beer and booze business. I don't think that's an affectation of COVID or whatever, but, uh, you know, a distillery is a distillery until you get people to visit there and you have to get, you have to create a reason why someone would show up as opposed to just going to the liquor store and picking it off the shelf.

11:55Katie Cline: So we've been working with one particular operator who's created this cool sort of speakeasy tour product, uh, which is very cool. And so there's lots of those examples, Katie, across the province where, and particularly in areas where we wouldn't have a lot of traditional visitation, especially in the wintertime. So part of our mission is to deal with the sort of seasonality and regionality issues here and to create opportunities in different parts of the province. People are still going to want to go to Banff. You know, people are still going to want to go to Lake Louise, but we want to show them that there is a multitude of things to do outside of the traditional seasons, outside of the traditional locations.

12:40David Goldstein: That's definitely something I want to ask you about. But before we do, when you talk about making investments in these business, is that government funds that you guys are shepherding or how are you making those investments?

12:51Katie Cline: Yeah, so that's we have we are more of an economic development agency now than we are just a marketing agency. And I hope to drill down into that a little bit because I think that's the future. I think too many destination organizations think they can market their way out of the problem. And we've been chasing demand for so long and we haven't really been paying attention to supply. I'm not saying that we're the only ones, but the root of the problem or the challenge is that so many destination organizations are based on hotel levies or taxes that fund them and therefore are really focused on some of the short, medium term things.

13:35Katie Cline: where am I going to get that convention? Where am I going to get that sporting event? As opposed to looking at the broader supply as to what the customer is going to want to do and where they're going to want to stay. Um, and how is that original, but, but sort of circling back. Um, yes, we are a government funded organization. There is a provincial hotel levy of 4%, which is not our funding model, but it's sort of loosely tied to that. And during COVID, through COVID, the province made a decision before my recruitment that they really wanted to broaden the mandate of Travel Alberta beyond being a kick-ass marketing organization, which it was.

14:16Katie Cline: I got outside my office, there's shelves of awards up there just to prove it because that's what we all care about. I don't, but anyway. And that we had to do it better. We had to do it differently. and frankly when i uh when i applied for this job i walked in with the new zealand tourism strategy um which was heavily based on product development like beyond product development and air access and

14:40David Goldstein: and and other elements other than just marketing marketing is still important katie but i continue

14:46Katie Cline: to tell people that you just can't market your way out of the problem it's so refreshing to hear as

14:51David Goldstein: someone who spent her entire career in pr and marketing the amount of times where companies is just say, oh, well, go make this PR-able or go tell this story. And you're like, but that's not fixing the customer experience when they walk through the door. Like we can make it look however we want, but if it doesn't actually live up to it, it's not going to do it. And so that's really cool. But I imagine that's really, really hard what you're talking about to actually make the change and the supply side first. So how do you do that?

15:22Katie Cline: So I just let me take a step back, Katie, because you're hitting on a really important point. There is a point where over-marketing hurts your destination. That if you build a brand promise beyond your capacity, it actually, and then people show up and then they're disappointed. That actually creates a negative brand halo and then that becomes a problem that you have to then try and market your way out of. And it's become like this virtuous race to the bottom. Yeah. So there has to be in the discussion between demand and supply, and I'm probably put some of your listeners to sleep by now, but in this race, I refer to it as three legs of the stool.

16:05Katie Cline: So there's marketing, access, and place. So I don't refer, I mean, we refer to it. Marketing is self-evident, although the fact that we have to continue to evolve within the marketing milieu of where the customer is. And, and I think sometimes we forget, um, cause there's all kinds of jargon and all kinds of cool and all kinds of technology. It's still about finding eyeballs in years. Like it's, it's about finding listeners and viewers and, and, and, and then an inspiration to travel. That's fine. Access, especially for Alberta, like we're a fly to a destination. Um, there's no big U S city sitting beneath us.

16:44Katie Cline: There's no big rubber tire traffic, uh, coming from the U S. our connectivity specifically by air is, is, is fundamental and important. And then place like, what, what would you do when you get there? What, what, what, what is the culinary scene? What is the culture scene? What, where would I stay? And no offense to my, my, my friends at Marriott can, yes, I'm Bonvoy Platinum, but no events, but people want to stay in cool places. People like there's this huge demand for unique boutique accommodation, right? So, so, uh, and stuff to do when you're on the ground and stuff to do all seasons, right?

17:21Katie Cline: Like, like, like, um, we're a well-known ski destination on the globe, but if I'm bringing my family to Alberta to go skiing, what are the other things that we're going to be able to do that are winter related? So, uh, it's that struggle. And, and, and again, if you go back to the analogy of three legs on a stool, if one leg is too much higher than the other, the stool falls over. Right. Right. And so that's where we, I mean, we were, I guess, fortunate that our provincial shareholder shared that vision coming out of COVID and wanted us to come out of COVID a different way than other destinations and invested in it accordingly.

18:01David Goldstein: It makes me think when I was living in the UK, there were two destinations I really, really wanted to visit that I never ended up going to. And one was Albania and one was Uzbekistan. and I think both of them have done an amazing job with marketing. The fact that I know about them, that I can tell you a few things that make me want to go and I'm intrigued by. But it was the place section of when I started to look into hotel accommodations, I couldn't find a place that made me feel comfortable. Not to say it doesn't exist. Maybe it does. I'd love for everyone to jump in my DMs and send me some great places to stay.

18:37David Goldstein: But at that time, I couldn't find a place that I felt confident would have my kind of Western sensibilities of like cleanliness and safety, as well as being cool and interesting and in the right part of town and everything. And so what happens? I didn't go. And so I think it's a really important metaphor that you're pointing out of like, when teams just say like, well, just market it or PR it, it actually is going to hurt more than help if the other parts of the stool aren't sturdy.

19:06Katie Cline: Oh, I can tell you, my wife and kids hate going on vacation with me because I'll walk into a hotel and I'm like rolling my eyes at stuff and they're like, you're not at work. Like this is like, you have to, like, you have to stop being the travel industry guy and you just have to, and it's like waves of submission that take place until I'm okay with where I'm at. because, yes, we have a different level of expectation. Even, you know, it doesn't have to be five-star either. Like, there are certain things that we see that civilians don't see, right? And, you know, I can honestly say that, especially my wife is going to, I'm not sure if she's given up.

19:44Katie Cline: Like, we're still going on a vacation. But she's just like, you have to stop being the industry guy. Like, just submit. Just come to it.

19:52David Goldstein: But you're right.

19:53Katie Cline: I don't want to, Katie, I don't want to name and shame, but I know exactly the thing that you've gone through because I've had a couple of those experiences, you know, both in South and Central America, which are sort of compelling, increasingly compelling destinations. And it's not like I'm just traveling on my Marriott Bonvoy points or, you know, my Accor. Like, I can look a little past that, but then you start to wonder, like, what am I going to do for four or five days there, right? And it's not always evident what the itinerary looks like without booking through a travel agent, right? Exactly.

20:29David Goldstein: And it's not to say it didn't exist, but as someone who had never been there before, as someone who was potentially traveling as a solo female traveler, maybe with one of my other girlfriends, it puts a whole other level of concern in there, too, that almost you need the marketing side to be able to help support it, but only if you have the actual things in the place to be able to tell the story about. But I want to touch on, you mentioned Banff and Lake Louise. Of course, we couldn't have this conversation without talking about those two gorgeous, gorgeous destinations. How do you encourage visitors to see other spots, to go other places, while I'm sure supporting the fact that they want to go see these gorgeous spots?

21:14Katie Cline: So through our work, through our direct, ATIS is the sort of website off Travel Alberta that sort of helps you understand what some of those experiences are and their individual experience. But they're also sort of grouped in areas like outdoor adventure and culinary and stuff like that. A pretty standard, pretty standard for a destination organization like ours. although right now, and I, we're probably, probably given away the, probably given away the secret, but this is going to be our building block for AI. This is going to help our, our individual entrepreneurs become identifiable and scrapable in that space.

21:55Katie Cline: So that's the first thing. So we're building a whole back engine on the algorithms on that. The second thing is we have developed 10 tourism development zones. Again, another product of coming out of COVID and our, we called it the bootstrap strategy, which was our emergence out of COVID, and to create sort of 10 development zones, mostly within a two or three hour drive of when the international airports would serve as sort of a incubator for activity to grow product so that there are a series of alternatives, both for Albertans and Canadians who are traveling around Alberta, who are feeling that pressure on the main destinations.

22:36Katie Cline: but also to create some product that was year round. So that, that, uh, to ease the sort of issue of everybody has to go to Banff in the summertime. And so, um, you know, I'm, I'm not in denial, Katie, I don't think like, I'm going to convince my, my, my German operators to stop my partners in Germany to stop selling Banff. Okay. Uh, but I want to give them a list of other things, both the receptor tour operators and the traditional, both OTAs and traditional travel trade, to have itineraries that they can sell that go beyond just that piece. So it's been a thoughtful, I think we've invested almost$55 million over the last four years to build up those tourism development zones.

23:21Katie Cline: 65 % of our investment has been in the rural parts of the province. So it's kind of a win-win because these are often small communities that talk about agritourism. They talk about, you know, things like our new whiskey trail, uh, the ale trail, uh, how you incorporate very authentic, um, rural experiences, which I believe, I don't believe actually our research shows that it's very highly rated. Uh, Americans, Europeans, uh, our traveler, our international travelers from Asia, they find it remarkable that you can land in it at one of our international airports and 20 minutes out of town, you're in nature.

23:59Katie Cline: Like it's a very spectacular feature, which I think we take for granted, but it's something that, uh, I, you know, when I talk to our, our international partners, they find it magical, right? So like, like, uh, so we're not going to deny that Dan Flake, Louise and Jasper are the, you know, the jewels of the crown. Our job is to build Katie a crown around the jewels. give folks alternatives to that where they could spend a night or two elsewhere maybe three

24:29David Goldstein: elsewhere in the province yeah and i think that's happening with traveler behaviors too first of all right away i'm thinking if someone comes and does you know those three destinations and they have a great experience they might want to come back again and they'll say well where am i going next time, right? Or I've seen it with the UK. I've seen travelers who have never actually been to London being like, I'm going to the Cotswolds. And to me, I was like, what? Like, you haven't even done London yet. How are you going to the Cotswolds? But I do think, especially with social media, which is something I'm curious to get your thoughts on, there are ways now for these lesser known destinations to become very well known quite quickly.

25:10David Goldstein: So in your perspective, social media, a gift, curse, someplace in between? What do you think?

25:17Katie Cline: First of all, I'm going to do a shout out to my friends at Oddly Travel who are based in the Coxwells. I was there just last year up there visiting and I had a lovely couple of days up there. So I totally get that. And I think that backs into how do you, again, blessing, curse, all the above. Okay. More on the blessing side. I guess my history in media taught me has taught me that, um, if you're singularly focused on ears and eyeballs, like if that's what you're, if you focused on that, the technology bridge to get there and how you adapt to that is less worrisome, as long as you sort of figure that out.

25:57Katie Cline: Like I'm old enough. You said earlier in the interview, like somebody who started at the bottom, I, I, I, you know, I'm old enough to remember how I was like to buy a national radio, a national radio buy and how you would piece that together. And then the, the, the, then consolidation, there's a cycle consolidation takes place. And then you've got to figure out how to adjust your media buying pattern. And by the way, when I say media buying pattern, that's just an old term for search optimization or, or finding your audience. Okay. Um, which is, by the way, I love this podcast. Uh, by the way, congratulations.

26:31Katie Cline: I love this podcast. And I love the use of audio, maybe because I'm an old radio guy, but I have found for years I've struggled that, I know you're asking me about new media and I'm not talking about old media, but give me a second.

26:46David Goldstein: No, please.

26:47Katie Cline: You know, tourism always eschewed audio or generally eschewed audio, which is crazy because there's all kinds of benefits. I mean, there's radio, but there's podcasts and all kinds of stuff. Um, because it did, it's hard to get the big, beautiful pictures on, on, on it through an audio channel. Um, so I got into a flight, not a fight, a spirited argument with our creative agency. And we actually did a series of radio spots in LA, which were, had huge impact. And it was about skiing.

27:19David Goldstein: Okay.

27:19Katie Cline: So it was a fun, very funny little spots about it. I'm not going to maybe to paraphrase, but you know, if you fall, come skiing in Canada, if you fall down, your friends won't see you or stuff like that. Like it was really, but it had a huge impact, right? Like we could see through our partnership with Ski Big Three. I could, we could see through the, like it had, and I just, I wish. I, I, I'm of two views, Katie. Either I wish that my counterparts would take up some of this stuff, or maybe I'm just happy they don't. Like I, I, I, there's a, a competitiveness streak in me that says, screw you guys.

27:54Katie Cline: I'm going to do it. I'm going to, we're going to do a little differently and see where we land. Getting back to your question though. Um, the only fear I have of the new wave of whether it's AI generated or the only fear is that I know what we're going to see or what we've already seen is a massive consolidation in that space. And so you're going to have to, it's not as organic as everybody wants you to think it is. And so you're going to have to buy your way into the space. And, you know, you, then you create sort of a race to the bottom where, uh, the big corporations win there, uh, and smaller destinations are going to have a hard time finding their way.

28:35Now, the, the blessing Katie is if, if you're smarter, if you run, you know, the old saying,

28:42Katie Cline: I don't have to run faster than the bear. I just have to run faster than you. If I'm running faster than a lot of other destinations and I can figure out what the algorithm bridge is for our product, our destinations, our experiences, I think we're going to be okay. I think we're still going to punch above our weight, but it, you know, I am not, I'm not afraid of the profits. Like I think they're like the hot topic at every international forum is how is AI going to change our life? and I could, I'm not going to bore your listeners, but we're having the same discussion about programmatic five, 10 years ago, right?

29:20Katie Cline: We were having the same, you know, how do I buy around Facebook? Like, like, like, like it's just, it's a different, it's a different series of platforms and technologies. But if you remind yourself that it's about eyes and ears and figuring out how to find your way to the customer. And lastly on this, I, this is just my personal philosophy. um i i was taught years ago that you fish where the fish are but not where everyone everyone else is fishing like there is there is this rush and i i think i mean skiff is a platform that that really specializes in this industry and and and that's great but i think smart folks in this business are going to find other platforms where those fish are where i'm not competing with bermuda or you know if this the analogy of the old magazine where i'd open up a travel magazine and there's 72 different ads for different destinations i don't know how i pierce through in that environment yeah um but i can if i'm using another kind of publication or another publisher or another uh piece of media that's talking to the same people that we want to talk to i'll give you one example i know i'm running long but uh like we have just done a really interesting media arrangement with the Financial Times of London.

30:38Katie Cline: And it was primarily to reach investors to look at some of the new bigger projects, the all-season resorts that were lifting off the ground or building off the ground. But it also hit our main target on people who are affluent or who are travelers, right? It had that secondary lift and actually it's turned out to be sort of a one-two punch, which is really cool.

31:02David Goldstein: And what's so funny is that people forget a lot of times those investors are also travelers too. Like that is always really funny to me. I worked for a technology company for a minute and I was doing consumer PR for them for the first time. The company had never done consumer press before. And you had some people in the C-suite who were like, I don't understand, like, why do we need to be doing this? It was like, well, because the people who are decision makers for B2B are also consumers who are reading press coverage. And just like you're saying about, like, you want to be one of the only in one place where your target market still is, or do you want to just follow everybody else from your industry who's already there?

31:45David Goldstein: Also, I'm going to have to shout out for a quick minute your love of audio. Of course, this podcast is both video and audio, but I, too, am a podcast listener instead of a podcast viewer. And there have been so many studies that have talked about the level of intimacy that you can forge with your audience because you're hearing someone's voice. You're hearing their intonation. You understand them more than just maybe a talking head video on social media where you only get 30 seconds of audio.

32:14Katie Cline: Or the montage, you know, it's not that we haven't done it, but you know, you know, that beautiful montage, 30 second or 60 second spot that tries to show you all aspects of the destination and has really cool music and pretty people. Like, yeah, but this is an intimate form. This is where, whether it's radio or podcast, when people are sitting in their cars, this is what they're listening to. This is how they're engaging with the world. And in fact, in many ways beyond the traditional media thing. And Katie, I think that, first of all, I do want to applaud you for what you do. And to let you know that your brother in arms here understands the audio business.

32:55Katie Cline: And so I'm appreciative. But I think it's all about finding the eyeball. I keep going back to eyeballs and ears, right?

33:03David Goldstein: Yeah.

33:04Katie Cline: And audio pierces. like audio gets to people uh in a way that even video can't and one of the things i learned in the production business a hundred years ago uh was that 80 of video is audio and why when i sit down with our creative agency i i don't really i don't want to see their shot list i want to be an audio post i want to sit there with the audio producers to hear to close my eyes and hear what the actual track is saying and what you hear because that's the lasting impression i don't think people realize i want to go back i want to skip back to the investment thing though because it's you know again it's an important part of what we're doing which i think others aren't because our investment uh because we have an investment arm it is it is part of what we're doing from a marketing perspective as is our air access piece like we this gives us our investment in air access gives us a very unique opportunity to actually co-invest with carriers.

34:07Katie Cline: So traditionally there's been a little bit of investment or destinations invest in air access. We're doing very complicated co-investment strategies with our carrier partners in our seven international markets. So I'm creating brand, we're working with them to create brand awareness for their airline, but also for the routes that are coming to Calgary and Edmonton. So it's kind of, I hate the term multidimensional chess, but it's a very coordinated piece of activity as opposed to folks are doing one of all three. Like there are folks who are in the marketing business. There are the folks that also do some air access or subsidize some flights.

34:47Katie Cline: And there are some that actually do, like dev organizations that do product development. We have that all under one roof here in Alberta, which I think is part of our winning strategy.

34:56David Goldstein: And allows you to treat the destination holistically as opposed to in silos. So let's think if somebody like myself who has never been to Alberta before, I know I apologize, what is my perfect itinerary that you feel like by the time I get back on the plane to go home, you're like, you've got a great first impression of Alberta?

35:18Katie Cline: So I'm going to say two things that are non-congruent. First of all, Katie, that hat is worthy of the Calgary Stampede. And you have to come next July. So that's my invitation to you.

35:30David Goldstein: All right. I'll be there. How many hats can I bring? Because I've got a lot.

35:34Katie Cline: Oh, you're going to bring all the way. Trust me. I have at least four or five hats.

35:39David Goldstein: Okay.

35:40Katie Cline: My wife thinks I'm crazy. And real cowboy boots. So that is an event in and of itself. uh, as we call it, the, uh, uh, greatest outdoor show on earth, uh, just finished up a few weeks ago. I'm still drying out. Um, and, uh, it's both a great tradition of agriculture, like rodeo itself and the tradition of the agricultural roots of this part, but it's also a great music fest. So, um, put it in your calendar for next year. Um, and then there's a bunch of hub and spoke things that you can do out of Calgary, uh, that can make that very special. We are the stewards of six UNESCO heritage sites. So, so, um, there's a lot of cool stuff depending on what you want to do.

36:28Katie Cline: Uh, but I would take you, uh, I mean, I would take you down to a dinosaur provincial park, uh, where you can actually watch the excavation of fossils and, and probably the best, uh, archeological or, or, um, dinosaur museum in North America, which is, uh, in Drumheller, Alberta. So there's that side. There's a bunch of sidecars that we can, we can do together. Um, that would be the first. Uh, but the second where we, we bring quite a few media fans and, and sort of some of the CEOs of some of the travel trade companies is on our winter itinerary. and I call it the big C. But it starts at, you know, you land in Edmonton, you go out to Métis Crossing for a night or two.

37:17Katie Cline: You come back through Edmonton, we'll probably show you an NHL game, you know, because, you know, there's a great rivalry in Alberta between Calgary and Edmonton, so there's a great opportunity. And then we'll loop you through the Rockies, Jasper, uh, uh, the newly, uh, and, and I would bring you to the newly renovated and reopened Jasper park lodge where I was just a couple of nights ago, uh, with a spectacular focus on wellness. Um, and then we would bring you through Banff and then back through Calgary, um, where I would fit you out, uh, with, uh, a proper pair of cowboy boots from the Alberta boot company.

38:00Katie Cline: now i'll tell you that the story about the alberta boot company it's like a three generation or a company that's been making the best cowboy boots in north america and i know you're going to get a bunch of hate mail on that um but uh it started off sort of in a an industrial park we brought we helped them come downtown we created uh through our investment uh a tour product so you can actually go through the factory and watch boots being made. And you can actually have your custom boots made on scene. And, you know, this is a thrill for even, I always find it funny that the CEOs of these big companies find this to be such a thrill that they get to go and do the behind the scenes thing.

38:44Katie Cline: And so you'd leave with a great pair of cowboy boots, a proper pair of cowboy boots. And there's a whole bunch of series of things along the way, including a series of Indigenous experiences, some outdoor activity. I do that in the wintertime. I do that tour to show folks what you can do beyond just the summer months. So it creates some opportunities both in the Rockies and outside the Rockies. And it gives you a sense of time and space in the wintertime.

39:15David Goldstein: That sounds incredible. Of course, I've known about Banff and Lake Louise, But so much of what you just shared, I think, is a great example of like building that ecosystem outside of it. And I can imagine just from that example itinerary that people bought the tickets, booked the trip for BAMP, for Lake Louise. is but maybe it's something else on that itinerary that actually is if they had to pick the one part of their trip that was the most memorable it might end up being one of those other things because of how much time and energy was put into creating something that really is very different and makes

39:53Katie Cline: sense for the destination yeah and and you know i can pitch on spa product we have lots of really cool spa products uh shadow like louise just did i think a hundred million dollar renovation on their new wellness. I can pitch you on all that stuff. I can pitch you on the elements, right? I can tell you, you know, here are the great restaurants along the way. Here are the, here the, but as a comprehensive set of experiences, as a night, as a sort of itinerary, I know I'm supposed to say this and everybody else is going to roll their eyes. It's incomparable. And sitting out by a fire at Jasper Park Lodge and having an indigenous storyteller talk to you about the aspects of how Mother Earth renews itself and what are the linkages for tens of thousands of years to that land.

40:44Katie Cline: And then there's an owl hooting in the background, which I always think is funny because I think guests think we do that on purpose.

40:51David Goldstein: I think it's a mechanical thing. Like you're on a speaker. That's right.

40:54Katie Cline: But I mean, I've had some of the grisliest veterans of our industry walk away crying from this tour. It's so deep and meaningful. But that takes a different level. Lots of people do curation. A lot of people do itineraries. A lot of blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. We're actually kind of building the bridge as we go across it, right?

41:20David Goldstein: Well, you used a word there that I was thinking about when you were talking about media in general and audio specifically, and it's storytelling. And I think as much as it's become a little bit of a buzzword, I do think that in most things in life, when you're able to actually tell a compelling story, whether you're trying to, you know, sell a physical product or market a destination, it is going to be more memorable. That, like you said, you would have someone who's usually quite hard walking away from this in tears because it really just touched something in them.

41:54Katie Cline: Well, so I have a, my eldest daughter is sort of a, has started off her career in public relations. And I keep telling her, like, there's this, their generation is consumed with AI is going to take my job. And I'm like, the storytellers will win. like it's not about being able to find the right pitch to the right journalist like there's there's there there's truth to that but not to personalize this katie but you're not going to invite somebody back on your show who doesn't who can't tell a story right there's a huge difference when i sit

42:28David Goldstein: and talk to somebody when i can tell someone is speaking from the heart telling me their genuine experience and someone who knows their talking points and i say that with love because i'm a

42:39Katie Cline: publicist and I'm very happy for executives to read their talking points.

42:43David Goldstein: However, we connect with people who sit and give us our genuine experience. Doesn't mean we agree with them, but we listen more when we know it's authentic.

42:53Katie Cline: And I have a publicist on the line who's killing herself because I'm not reading anything. And she did great subs because she does great work, but she's wringing her hands right now. But back to the point, storytellers will win. And, and, and when I was, the one thing I did learn when I was in the production business at a very young age was this line from my mentor. I said, people will watch people's stories forever. And if you can relate it to me as a human being, um, and how relatable these things are, then it's not just trying to go through a website and figuring out, uh, well, I want to stay here and what am I going to do?

43:34Katie Cline: And like that type of approach to the consumer is very, very important to us. Whether it's and we have just found indigenous is a really good way to do that just because it's very important. It's meaningful. It is about where we are as Canada and our reconciliation process. It's a very tourism is a great way to create economic development for those communities, especially those rural communities. and it's it has the additional benefit of they are a storytelling culture and our international clientele for example just fall in love and it's okay that's the other thing that we've had to wrestle with it's okay to talk about the bad history like they're the you can't you can't

44:22David Goldstein: paper that over uh in fact you gotta you gotta be really upfront about it uh and so you know that

44:30Katie Cline: That is core to a lot of the work that we're doing and how we're going to touch people and make them resonate.

44:36David Goldstein: Because am I the hottest destination on the planet?

44:40Katie Cline: Well, we did get a big Wanderlust award last year for the best region in the world. But aside from that.

44:48David Goldstein: Yes, we are the hottest destination in the world.

44:50Katie Cline: But I'd like to think we're the friendliest destination in the world. Like, like, and this, I, I, I know people say that, but when I first got here six years ago, I'm sure, or just over, just over five years ago, trying to figure out what's the distinguishing piece, right? Because everybody market, a lot of people market the same stuff. And we made a significant shift from, it was called Remember to Breathe. Campaigns were called Remember to Breathe. They were breathtaking. They were about these big vistas and mountains and very few actual people. And they won a ton of awards. And it was a great brand proposition for about 10 years.

45:26Katie Cline: And then we, COVID allowed us to stop and breathe and think about what we were doing as a destination perspective. at the time Katie destination Canada kept putting out research about who are the destinations they didn't say the friendliest but the most welcoming of visitors right Alberta was always at the top of the list and so we sort of and I had just moved here so I was sort of kind of getting this notion that friendly is part of the brand you know you could say safe or you could say like there's a bunch of adjectives that go with that but the the the there were two things that sort of stood out for us one was the friendliness of the people and the other was and we now call it canada's wild side but it was sort of a different type bit of a different swag or a different attitude and we were uh because i i don't know if you got time for this but there's um the problem when you're representing a province or a state, unless you're Texas or California or New York, like people don't really know subnational organizations.

46:38Katie Cline: You know, they were lines written on a map a hundred years ago or 150 years ago. Like, you know, name me three states in, in, in, uh, in Germany, aside from Queensland and like maybe three states in, in, in Australia. People don't think that way. They don't. So a lot of my brothers and sisters in the business are busy trying to tell you like visit wyoming or you know visit british columbia like like and and travelers don't think that way and and you cannot start a conversation with a geography lesson like that's just not how the consumer thinks that's how uh politicians feel uh and i don't diminish that but we we put canada in the front window as canada's alberta canada's well outside and we had to figure out what distinguished us within Canada.

47:26Katie Cline: And if you imagine there's 13 or 10 provinces and three territories, imagine a family table of 13 kids. Okay. There's always that kid who's the black sheep of the family. There's always that kid who, you know, got a nasty, you know, letter back from the principal's office. Like that's Alberta.

47:44David Goldstein: Like, like we are, we are, we are not ashamed of that.

47:47Katie Cline: When I'm in France, I call us the Mouton Noir, which is the black sheep in, in French. Like, like, like we're okay with that. We wear that. We wear cowboy hats. Not every day. Well, some do the real cowboys do, but you would not look out of place in that hat. Sure.

48:02David Goldstein: For anyone who's just listening, it's a fedora, not a cowboy hat, but you know, we got the point.

48:10Katie Cline: So like sometimes you have to be truthful about who you are and authentic to who you are because everybody else is trying to do the other thing. or real me vegas or disney and you know what millions of people go spend billions fine okay i'm not in that class i don't want to be in that class um we also made a very uh distinct um we have a distinct approach katie where we're not really hung up on visitor numbers we're really looking at spend so we're trying to really focus on the yield clientele as opposed to the volume side. So it's a very, I would say, different approach than most of the provinces in Canada, most of the states around the U.S.

48:55Katie Cline: And the numbers telling us, touch wood, the numbers telling us that it's working.

49:01David Goldstein: David, I want to ask you the last three questions that I ask every guest. And the first is, what was the best hospitality experience that you have ever had?

49:09Katie Cline: I've had many. I'm going to tell you a story. I was sitting having dinner at the Savoy Hotel in London with the then general manager, an epic guy by the name of Phil Barnes. And I was tucking into my beet salad. And almost in slow motion, I watched a drip of beet juice land on my tie. And it was one of my favorite ties. And I don't really have to wear them much anymore. But it was one of my favorite ties. I'm like, fuck that's done. Major D came over, said, Mr. Goldstein, can we launder your tie for you? I'm like, well, I'm not actually staying in the hotel. And Phil's like, take the tie off. So I give this guy my tie.

49:52Katie Cline: I think I'm going to have to come back tomorrow or the next day to pick it up. By the time the coffee was served, the tie came back beautifully dry cleaned. Wow. Now I know I was sitting having dinner with the GM, so it's not, but I mean, that level of expectation, like we will just take care of this for you. Like, please don't worry about it is the most important thing. And it leads me to a discussion. I know we're running out of time, but Katie, I think sometimes we forget in this business, the anxiety of the traveler. Travel is exciting. But if you go to the thesaurus, another definition for exciting is anxious.

50:30Katie Cline: And we see it in airports and we see it on planes and we see it people lining up to check into hotels like i think we have lost a level of civility since covid but on the other side there's a level of anxiety especially amongst the traveling public the civilians as you were or maybe it's worse with those of us who are not civilians i'm not sure but there's a there's a general anxiety about travel because you have put so much of your time and energy to decide where you're going and what you're going to do and like so much is riding on this trip and it's not just like a family vacation. It's a, you know, I'm going to Calvary for a big convention, or I'm, I'm going, uh, with my kids on a, on a, on a hockey tournament.

51:14Katie Cline: Like so much has been vested in your, the success of your trip. It becomes a point of anxiety. And I think people in the hospitality business have to, it's not just empathy. They have to sort of recognize it for what it is. And I think that's where sometimes there's breakage between what we're doing in the hospitality sector and where the customer is.

51:37David Goldstein: On the flip side of that amazing Thai experience, what was the worst hospitality experience you've ever had?

51:44Katie Cline: That's hard because there's many of them. The problem is I'm a food guy. So I am constantly rewarded and yet sometimes very disappointed by how the culinary business and the service side of the culinary business has has come to pass and i i started off bussing tables when i was and waiting on tables when i was a kid so i like before kitchen confidential came out and then when kitchen confidential came out like oh my god this is so true like like like oh my god you know anthony bourdain is a hero to me but but but uh you know as twisted and tortured as he was i but that's the bit that's the business right and i have an ongoing fight i have a friend of mine who owns gusto tv which is a competing food network and uh like we fight about this all the time maybe you go to a restaurant uh food or front of house and my view is i'm prepared to sit through mediocre food if i have great front of house and sometimes that's disappointing and sometimes in the greatest of spaces right I have a whole story about, I guess it's closed now, so it doesn't matter, about going to Le Cirque in Vegas, which was the worst mistake of my life.

52:57Katie Cline: But I'll save that for next time you invite me back, Katie.

53:00David Goldstein: That's right. That's right. We got to save some juice for next time. Final question for you. What does hospitality mean to you? And is there anyone, it could be a person in your life, it could be a brand that you think has truly mastered it?

53:13Katie Cline: so I'm going to avoid the brand thing because you know, I love all my children, but I think at the heart of hospitality, I am going to go back to that empathy piece that, uh, and it's hard to train, right? It's hard. I mean, I think many people in this sector of sectors have started to realize that the person I interact with the most as the customer is sometimes the lowest paid person on the payroll. It's the front desk person. I'm going to see the housekeeping people more than I'm going to, than I'm ever going to see the GM of the hotel.

53:53David Goldstein: Right.

53:56Katie Cline: And some hospitality companies know that and they train around that. And there's certain brands, which again, I won't mention, you can't walk down the hall of a certain hotel without the hospitality folks saying, good morning, sir. How are you? Like, like just acknowledging you. And yeah, they've got 30, 40 beds to make, uh, but they still take a couple of seconds to acknowledge you and, and wish you a good morning and good afternoon. I think empathy and how we train folks in our sector, the least of which, um, are not the least of which, right. Um, I have another daughter who is working at a visitor center in, in you know, in a place that shall not be named.

54:43Katie Cline: But, you know, her whole day is trying to help people who have landed in her destination or just trying to figure out what to do. And they're anxious about how the day is going to roll out and God forbid, if it rains, right. If it rains, like what, what does that change your itinerary. And because travelers, very few travelers build in the unexpected into their itineraries, that's when hospitality takes over.

55:08David Goldstein: What a beautiful way to end. David, thank you so much for spending time with us today. I just need to pack my hat boxes and then I'll see you next July, it sounds like.

55:18Katie Cline: You're welcome.

55:19David Goldstein: All right, everyone. It's time for today's sweet summary, where I break down the key insights and actionable takeaways from today's conversation. David and I started chatting about something I think a lot about, failure. As a type A perfectionist, failure used to be something I avoided at all costs. But the older I've gotten and the deeper I've gone into entrepreneurship, the more I've realized failure isn't something to be ashamed of. Not trying is. That mindset seems to shape how David approaches his work at Travel Alberta. He sees his role as championing thousands of entrepreneurs, from hotel owners and guides to restaurant operators and outfitters and so many more.

56:07David Goldstein: Innovation requires taking risks, which can sometimes mean getting it wrong, but it also means having the courage to go first and to try ideas that others haven't even considered yet. When we talked about indigenous tourism, he said that celebrating culture also requires acknowledging the painful parts of history where things went wrong. It can't and shouldn't be glossed over. He thinks similarly about destination marketing. You can't market your way out of a product problem. If the visitor experience isn't there, no advertising campaign is going to fix it. That's what authenticity really is. It's not pretending everything is perfect.

56:51David Goldstein: It's being honest enough to tell the whole story in the first place. Because as David said, it's the storytellers who will always win. And that concludes another episode of Sweet Success. If you enjoyed today's conversation, please subscribe, rate, and review the show. We all know how important those five-star reviews are. I also want to say a massive thank you to each and every one of you for tuning in. It means the absolute world to me. And I'd love to hear from you. If you have ideas for future guests, new topics to cover, or even just want to say hi, don't be shy. Message me through our website, sweetsuccesspodcast.com, or on social media, at sweetsuccesspodcast.

57:30David Goldstein: That's sweet like hotel suite. Once again, I'm your host, Katie Klein, and I'm super excited to see you all next week.