Want to Get Featured in The New York Times? A Journalist Reveals What Actually Works

0:00ZS is a global consulting and technology firm that partners with companies to improve life and how we live it. Working with the world's top hospitality brands, ZS brings together data, science, technology, and human ingenuity to transform ideas into customer loyalty. They're ready to help you elevate guest experiences, improve operations, and uncover preferences and motivations through their AI-powered solutions. With more than 1 ,700 clients in over 170 countries, ZS has built the expertise, fortitude, and vision to help you deliver impact right where it matters. I'm Heather Seneson, and you're listening to Sweet Success.

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1:14Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Sweet Success. I'm your host, Katie Klein, and today I'm thrilled to welcome Heather Sennison to the show. Heather is an award-winning journalist for publications such as The New York Times, Forbes, The Real Deal, Newsday, and The New York Post. After beginning her career as a reporter covering crime and politics, she went on to become an editor at AM New York and has since shifted to write about real estate, architecture, interior design, and housing trends. With nearly two decades of experience, Heather has developed a sharp eye for the stories that capture people's attention and the trends that are quietly reshaping the way we live.

1:54Today, we'll talk about what makes the story newsworthy, how journalists decide which pitches to pursue, and what it really takes to earn meaningful media coverage that can change the trajectory of a business or a brand. Heather, thank you so much for joining us today. Thanks for having me, Katie. For most people who are listening or watching us, being featured in the New York Times is the ultimate dream. How did you land your role there? I cold emailed my editor, the former real estate editor, Nikita Stewart. She's at the Metro Desk now. And I introduced myself and mentioned some of the bigger publications that I've written for in the past and told her it had some ideas, complimented her career a little bit.

2:35And when she didn't answer, I followed up and pretty much bumped her into answering me. And that's how it happened. I didn't have any connections. I don't have a fancy Ivy League degree. I just, I Googled her email address, which is how I got it and, um, just went for it. And it worked. I know. What a great story for people to just, you know, shoot your shot, to just try, and also to follow up, which I imagine as a journalist, you're quite used to. What is it that attracted you to journalism in the first place? Oh, gosh. My dad was a government worker in New York City. He was an administrator.

3:16He was the purchase director for a lot of my childhood for all the city municipalities. So that means he worked at the top of the municipal building under the Golden Angel, and he was in charge of buying the supplies for most of the city's municipalities. And he, being a government employee and a government administrator, was very interested in the news and very interested in politics. And he actually used to make me read the Times when I was a child learning how to read. That's how, that was one of the ways that he taught me how to read was I would have to sit and read the New York Times. And it was grueling because I actually have vision impaired, I have vision impairment and I couldn't read the itty bitty text, you know, and he would get so mad at me that I couldn't read the words.

3:58And I was like, I cannot see them. Um, but then, um, it was like first grade when I started to demonstrate that I had a skill for writing and, um, I thought about, you know, how can I have a career as a writer that isn't just writing books? Cause I was concerned that there wouldn't be enough steady income with writing books. And for some reason I thought there would be a better income being a reporter. I don't know that that's true. But by high school, I knew I wanted to be a journalist. And then I fixed a college that was in a city, basically, so that I could, there would be stuff to write about.

4:36That is the ultimate New York story that you grew up hating the times and how full circle for you to be writing for them today. Yeah. My dad actually passed away just before I started writing for them so he didn't get to see it which is like such a i'm just sorry to hear that maybe he you know maybe he knows i don't know yeah yeah exactly exactly i swear though he he wanted sorry but if i may he wanted me to write for the times so badly that when he was i think i think like on his deathbed he was like you know and she didn't write for this he was thinking about like the things that children didn't accomplish you know and he was like she never wrote for the times just you know you know i know i did my best dad but i'm gonna guess that's not true i'm very like you was very proud of everything and you flicking down saying wow she she's now in those tiny tiny prints as well yeah she better run for the times one day that's all i'm saying when you first started your career in journalism you were covering crime and politics politics may be less of an extension away from real estate and the topics you cover now, but crime, completely different beat, I'd imagine.

5:46What was the craziest story you covered during that time? I mean, first of all, I want to say that I was so young. I started out as a journalist when I was like 19. And so I was just, I was such a baby covering these crazy topics. So I covered everything from around 2009-ish, the New York state legislature was just an absolute mess. I mean, we had Elliot Spitzer hiring prostitutes and like every other legislator was indicted and it was just, it was pandemonium. And I covered that. That was one of some of the first things that I covered. But one of the first things that I did as a baby journalist was cover the whole Elliot Spitzer scandal, it literally broke the, this, this season that I think it was the spring that I got this job with this newspaper.

6:37And so, um, you know, it was so crazy and it was also crazy, Katie, because I barely understood these concepts, you know, I was like, what the heck is an indictment? I mean, I was like a child's like, and so I had to really get an education really fast on, um, you know, legal campaign fund spending, like all these things. And then when I went to the city, I was a general editor. Um, so let me back up. I was covering crime and corrections at the state level, um, which I covered a lot of overcrowding in prisons. Um, I covered mothers who were, who received lights, life sentences for killing their abusers.

7:17Like real, again, really heavy stuff for being like 20. And then I went up period and at 20. I know I'm I'm still affected by some of that stuff to this day. I really am. And then I went to the city, and then I was covering crime in the city, which was also crazy, like gang violence. I went to a house that had been firebombed on Christmas Day. I interviewed a mother whose son was murdered as a gang initiation. I know, crazy. I was living in Queens, and I was going to the Queens precincts, and some of the Queens precincts have some of the highest crime rates in the city, or at least they did at the time.

7:53and I was covering, you know, how their approach to gangs. And I went to one police plaza and watched a day-long presentation on current terror threats against New York City, which is like, I'll never sleep again. None of it I would ever sleep again. One day I would be like, I am moving to a farm someplace very far away. Yeah, and I actually had meetings with editors where they would like coach you on how to get through it, which is really crazy to think about. Like they would say, like, you have to have, you know, fixed, like, you just have to swallow it. You go home and cry. Like, you know, just that kind of thing.

8:30You know, you're fearless. That's why I hired you. Like that kind of stuff. And you're just like, you're looking at them for like to like save you. And they're like, I've been doing this for like four years. I'm extremely jaded. I don't know. Okay. So it was really intense. And I think it was especially intense being as young as I was. Like, who is this child? I don't know. going into a prison as a woman period is probably extremely intimidating. And then at that age. Yeah. So it was, um, it was, it was a lot of it was pretty intense. I mean, I can get the answer to this, but what made you shift out of that or how to make believe?

9:08So this is a great story. So I was at a newspaper in the city and I was there a year and it was, it was time for, I felt that it was time for me to move on. And so I was looking for jobs and I, I literally think that in Craigslist, I saw that the newspaper AM New York was hiring an associate editor. And AM New York, for those who aren't familiar with it, started in the wake of 9-11. They started handing it out to people on the subways. And it was a free newspaper. And it was kind of every time that there is a like a crazy thing that happens in society, you know, like a catastrophe or whatever, everyone all of a sudden watches the news all the time.

9:44So these really, really smart people were like, let us start these simple little newspapers because people will be reading them. We could put advertising them and people people will be reading them because everybody wants to know what's going on right now. And in the early days of AM New York, the editors were very silly and they would run headlines that there's no way that would be tolerated in today's politically correct climate. it. And so my friends and I in high school made scrapbooks of AM New York headlines and, and, and, and little news articles because they were so over the top and so funny.

10:15So when I, once I saw that AM New York was hiring, I was like, no, I have to get this job. So I, I emailed the editor and I said that I love to read AM New York on the train, freaking coffee. And the editor calls me and, um, and he's like, he's like, I saw your cover letter. I loved it. I also like to drink coffee. So he was like, you know, we have something in coffee. It's like, oh, well, we should obviously work together that. So then he called me into the office for an interview. And he said, you know, the thing is that we're actually hiring. You have to you have. Newspapers are very short staffed.

10:46And so everybody does everything. And he was like, you have to do everything. But on top of everything you have to your your the real estate section and the business section, a couple of other smaller sections, careers and whatever else are going to be your sole responsibility. And he was like, do you think, you know, what what experience do you have? Do you think you can handle that? And I was like, well, I shop at stores. So that's, I was like, I, I, I know what a business improvement district is. What more do you need? And I was like, and I live places, which is real estate. So we're good. I was like, you know, my parents had, you know, a rental property.

11:19And I, at that point I was helping my dad landlord this rental property. And, um, I had rented apartments as like a, you know, at a young person because again I was I think I was 23 or 24 at this time still very young and um and I was like I I think I think I'll be fine and he was like that sounds good let's do it I was like okay an alternative answer could have been I figured out how to cover gang violence and prisons in New York City I'm pretty sure I can figure out anything yeah at my age um and so you know um And so we went from there and I ended up loving it. I loved covering real estate.

11:58I loved covering real estate before it was as popular as it is today. Yeah. And you must have just been so happy to be on a more upbeat beat, if you will. I guess. I mean, I still love true crime to this day. I don't I don't think it I don't think it destroyed me as much as it would destroy other people. I don't know what that says about me, but that's a lot of reporters were really tough. And I what I covered isn't even that crazy. When you think about the war reporters and stuff, you know, they're literally risking their lives every day. I didn't feel like I was risking my life. And and honestly, covering general news isn't that much better because you're still covering like I still had to edit stories.

12:40on, you know, terrible things that were happening around the world. Yeah. But I think you're probably right that back at the time I probably felt, I know my mom was like, oh my gosh, you. Ah, yeah, exactly. I'm wondering, as you say that, it makes me think of that old trope of if it bleeds, it leads. Do you think that that's true in journalism today? You mean if it bleeds, it gets attention, like people want to know about it? Yeah, that like the kind of understanding is like the kind of negative news gets more attention than like the positive happy stories? My response is that the public is impossible to please.

13:16Because if I run a positive story, like the second home's first story, I get emails that are like, this isn't journalism. You only cover the positive side of this. This is just a happy story. You're not doing reporting. But then when we cover the bad things, it's, I don't want to watch the news because it's just depressing. And, you know, and it's just like, the public must be mostly New Yorkers and are just absolutely impossible to make happy. So I don't know. Like if you figure out what the public wants, then please let us know because we're dying to know. We're all going to figure it out. And a bit of background for anyone listening or watching.

13:54I met Heather when I pitched her a story. I have another podcast called Second Home First, and I pitched her a story about this trend of people buying their second home first. that's how we first got connected and everything. So she covered it for the New York Times, the biggest moment of my life. I have officially peaked now. And then she very graciously decided to come on both this podcast and Sweet Success to give us the inside scoop on what it takes to really get this amazing press coverage. So let's move on to talk a little bit about maybe misconceptions. If you are at a family party or you're with people who don't work in the media or with the media.

14:34What makes you laugh that those of us who aren't in the space think? I think just how much choice we have. You know, so I write a weekly column for the New York Times on the market. And it's just, I take three properties that are for sale every week. And I write a little blurb about them. And I list the pros and cons of the apartment. And if you ever want to kill time with something entertaining to do, you should read the comment section on the online version of On the Market because people really just absolutely shred my column. And they think that it's just completely up to me what properties I choose.

15:17And it's not because I have to run quality high-res photos. And like you were saying earlier, or when we were chatting earlier, you were saying that regular people can't afford publicists. Well, regular people who are selling their$200 ,000 apartments in New York, which in New York is literally nothing for an apartment. They aren't necessarily going to have a professional photographer taking images. And I don't care if the apartment is messy and dirty and cluttered. I actually prefer to have how real people live to be in all of my coverage. But I do need it to be not blurry, not grainy. If it's going to run in print, has to be, you know, 2000 pixels wide minimum.

15:59So I think that people think that, that we just get to that, that, that everything is just in our control and, and it's not, I also think people think that, that everything we do has some slant or slander or has some ulterior motive. And it's like, no, no, no, we're just like trying to make a living and get home to our kids. And, you know, And most of us are like just regular people that are, you know, mostly good people that are doing our best. And so that's kind of it. It definitely is funny to hear what people say like at a family barbecue. Well, and as you touched on the comment section, it makes me think about social media in general, too.

16:45Do you think that social media has made it easier for you to find stories because you're getting served things that you're like, oh, I want to like investigate that more? Has it made it harder? Baby reporters now have no idea how good they have it. When I used to report on a story before there was social media, I would literally text everyone in my phone and I would email everyone in my phone. And when I met people, like if I was at my dad's boat club and I was introduced to like Harry, I would ask him if he was okay with being on my list of people that I contacted when I was looking for sources.

17:15I was constantly collecting people that were okay to be on this list and I would literally have to contact everybody. Um, and in the early, early days of email, you couldn't even like, it wasn't as easy to have like a list serve. So, you know, um, and I used to, and I used to text everybody and I knew like whose mom was like really good at finding people. And, and, and I used to have to do that. I mean, now you have quoted, you know, in sites like that, um, help a reporter out, help a reporter out is, is, is much, much older. It's been around for much longer, but there didn't used to be that. And it was, it was really hard to find sources.

17:50And our, I think our coverage and the news was very different back then, literally, because we just had only, you know, so many people that we could find. Yeah. If you think back on all of the stories that you've written, which one are you most proud of writing and why? I think one of the, one of the, you know, I have a few that I'm proud of for different reasons, But one of the stories that I'm the most proud of is a story that I wrote two years ago on a widow on a Native American reservation. And her husband had passed away while she was in the process of buying a house. And she was left a single mom with four kids.

18:32And she not only had to overcome her husband dying of a heart attack, like one afternoon and being left with four kids. She also had to navigate home buying on a Native American reservation, which is just a million times more difficult than it is for the rest of us who live off res. It takes years to buy a house or property on a Native American reservation, which, you know, doesn't make any sense. And that's a whole other conversation. And it took her, I think, three years to close on our house to no fault of her own. and so um that was one of the most rewarding stories that I wrote because not only and this woman was so humble like she um I didn't even really hear from her again after the story ran like she wasn't like she wasn't like oh my god thank you so much she was just like shy and and you focused on her four freaking kids right right and so um that was and also just the opportunity to write about and a truly underserved community that nobody talks about and nobody thinks about was really like that was good work like that's what I'm that's what we're supposed to be doing although yeah you know that's what we're supposed to be doing when we're doing real journalism that gives voices to voiceless that type of journalism right and shines a light on things that many people would have no idea that it takes that long to do that yeah there There are probably so many follow up stories that I could write and so much, so much more that you could delve into that because it's land ownership in regards to Native American reservations is truly just so crazy.

20:04And it's really, really complicated, too. That's that was also one of the most difficult stories that I wrote, because to try to understand those laws and literally like hundreds year old treaties. Right. I mean, it was really, really complicated. And I think I shed tears in the process because I was so stressed that I didn't was not understanding these laws and these regulations. It was like you have to understand it and then you have to understand it well enough to be able to write about it and articulate it so that we all understand it. So that's a whole other level of comprehension. Exactly.

20:32And after I ran the story, a member of the Federal Reserve, like literally the National Bank, emailed one of my sources and said that I said that something was in every state and apparently it was only one word had to be changed. But like, you know, that was also crazy. I was like, see, this is why I was so nervous. This, like, extremely powerful person read the story and was like, actually, this one word isn't correct in yours. No, we fixed it. What does that feel like to know, particularly when you're writing for some of these massive, globally renowned outlets? What does it feel like to know that so many people are going to read it and therefore they're going to have feedback?

21:12I don't spend a lot of time thinking about it. I think that would probably freak me out. I think a lot of people read stories and don't look at the byline of who's writing it. So I'm kind of hiding behind that. Most people are just reading the topic. They're not necessarily memorizing the name that they're seeing, which I can be guilty of too. I have to like force myself to look at who wrote every story. And so, but, you know, I know that like the president, you know, reads the Times and Martha Stewart reads the Times real estate section. And it's definitely like, I feel like I have imposter syndrome.

21:49Like, I'm like, I don't know why I'm qualified to be here and why I'm qualified to have these people read my stories. Like, I'm just like Heather from Flushing. I don't know. Like, you know, but but it's also it's also a compliment that my editors think I'm good enough to be there. Yes. Appreciate that. And I imagine that has opened some doors for you as well. Yeah, that's true. I mean, I did recently interview Martha Stewart, and I actually went to her house. And I'm trying to convince me to let her come over again because this is how much gumption I have. Not only did Martha have me over once, I think she should have me over again, right?

22:26Your best friend. If you talk to her, please tell her if I'd have her over again. And so, yes, yes, that's true. And I have interviewed some, you know, top politicians. And, yeah, I know it's crazy, right? I just like don't even know. And then like also, you know, celebrities have interviewed some famous musicians and actors and actresses. And yeah, I haven't been able to convince everybody to let me over their house, though. Yeah, there's still time. Once you find out that you're besties with Martha, they'll be opening up right away. I'm curious for people who are listening and watching and they want to get amazing press coverage.

23:08What do you see as really good pitches that you've received from people versus what are the things that you immediately go delete? I'm not even bothering to respond to that. Sure. So I can only speak for myself. There's so many different types of reporters, right? And so many reporters out there. So other people might have different answers. but for me I I like to see that you have I like to see that it's that there is possible to interview a regular person tied to a story um and that's not always the case because sometimes we'll do like you know a roundup of new hotels that opened in Miami or something and then I don't need to speak to a new person I need somebody who who has a new hotel that opened in Miami that's what I'm looking for but if you're pitching me out of the blue not for not for you know just with an idea that's not something I'm already working on.

23:56I don't like just promotional. And that's partially because I'm a freelancer. They can get promotional, editors can get promotional stuff, like stuff that's easier from their staff reporters. When you're a freelancer, you really have to bring something to the table. You need to present them with something that they can't just get from somebody who's already on staff because they have to spend extra from their budget to pay you. So So I like to see something that has a regular person that I can that I can interview. And I love to see that you've thought of that. I also like to see that you have like looked at the type of coverage that I do.

24:31Not because I take that personally, but there's just like people pitch me stuff that I'm just like, I don't cover this even close to remotely. Why am I on your list? Like, I'm going to delete this. This has nothing to do with me. um and and and it's it's hard but everybody does love like an individual email i know that's hard so i don't i don't hold people to that but it does help if you can be like hey heather like hope you had fun at martha's i you know i have a story idea it just gets my attention because i'm human and we love attention you know yeah so yeah it's been really interesting to me kind of being on the opposite side now because I spent my entire career in PR pitching journalists like yourself and now hosting this podcast and my other I receive a lot of inbound pitches too and I feel almost more angry maybe than you do because I'm like agencies let's be a little less lazy like it's very obvious to me when AI has written your pitch or when I'm bcc'd on just a press release that there's not even an email that explains why it's newsworthy or interesting.

25:40I really also am like, you need to show me that you've listened to the show and that you're bringing me a pitch that's interesting. Now, I will remove all of that if you're bringing me something actually interesting that I'm like, oh, the audience is going to love it or they've a notable person tied to it. I'm like, you can BCC me all I want as long as like I get that interview. But by and large, there are so much inbound now that I just think people should remember. We can tell. It's very obvious when you've spent just 10 minutes, just, okay, I've listened to the show. I saw that you recently had this person on.

26:14I know that you like to talk about X or Heather, you cover Y. This is why I thought this pitch could be of interest specifically to you. Yeah, and I will say part of the reason why is because I need to know that you're going to be responsive when I'm reporting on a story. I, I'm from New York. And so I expect, or I'm used to a response like in under an hour. I mean, pretty much immediately. Cause that's just what we're used to when I work with, with publicists or real estate agents or sources in other parts of the country. I mean, the answer like the next afternoon and I'm like, what are you, where are, where are you doing?

26:45Like, you know, even like for when you were covering second home first, I had brought you a list of people who had been on real stories podcasts before. And I said, you know, who would you and your editor like to, interview in addition to me. And I remember reaching out to a bunch of these people that you were interested in and how long they took to get back to me. And I was like, guys, you're missing it. It's not going to work. The boat is leaving the station. We're not on it. Yeah. And there are a couple of people that are on like a little bit of a blacklist for me, like a couple of falsists where like, you know, I interview, I just tell you the stories running the next day and you answer me the next morning.

27:25I'm not working with you again because you just made me look bad. You just caused me a bunch of stress. Maybe I had to work at 10 o 'clock at night because you didn't get back to me until five. Like I can't, I don't, I can't, I can't deal with that. I think, I think with, with regular, with regular people who aren't, you know, media trained and don't have a publicist and everything, I'll obviously have a little bit more patience and understanding, but those people are always super responsive. They're like a reporter's talking to me. I don't know. It's like the most exciting thing that's happening in that day.

27:52Right. I I have a little blacklist started myself because I had one person reach out, invite me to something. I rearranged my day to come, confirmed that it was going to happen. And then they didn't realize that I don't write for one outlet. And I was doing this for the podcast, even though I was extremely clear. And then all of a sudden it was like, oh, no, sorry, we've canceled the event. And I'm like, you are talking to a publicist. I know what you did. Then they put me on their mailing list. So somebody else from the agency continues to just mass AI pitch me. I have responded multiple times.

28:26Please remove me from your mailing list. And then eventually I CC'd the other person back in and just said, please stop. Because this is not a fit. And like you said, time is so precious on both sides, source side and journalist side. We need to be very respectful of the symbiotic nature of this. Right. And I do work on some stories that take like six to eight months to run. Like some stories I write can be ridiculous. You know, I just told you earlier about a story that I've been working on for like years. Like, but there are, but like, you know, if it's, if it's, um, if it's a property, a celebrity's property or celebrity sports person's property that just sold and broke a record in, in South Florida, I'm obviously trying to run the story right now.

29:10Right. How could you not get back to me? Like, you know, you should you should know, I think, as a as a publicist and as someone who works in this industry, you should know the urgency level of different topics. And that that makes a big difference. If I tell you my story is due in three months, then I understand you deprioritizing responding to me until we're closer to deadline. Yes. But if I tell you I'm writing the story tomorrow. Like you and I need to be we're we're connected right now. We're doing this together today, you know. Yes. Also, let's talk about what makes a story newsworthy, because right there you touched on something timeliness.

29:44So if you have that timely hook that you can say this is just opening or just signed or just announced or this person just is arriving, what else are you looking for when people reach out to you? And of course, you want to make sure it's something that fits your audience and who you're talking to. But what else makes it something that you're like, that's a good story. We'll do it. often something that hasn't been covered a bunch already or isn't being covered a bunch right now. Certainly it hasn't been covered by the publication that I write for. Yeah.

30:14And something that people wouldn't normally think about. You know, it's something that's like just kind of like not terribly obvious. Like a really talented publicist that I know talked to me about a story on new developments that have helicopters. like to as one of their amenities to help get people you know to and from airports like no thinks about helicopters like this great idea yeah um and um i think also money numbers definitely helps like for that story if i were to write it i would want to know how much does it cost to have to own helicopters and to operate how much does the gas cost you know um is this affecting their common charges are these people having to pay extremely high common charges because they're paying for freaking helicopters um you know i want to know that you can help me get the nitty gritty um a lot of people will pitch me things and then when i ask the details they're like well our source isn't comfortable sharing it and like okay well i can't write the story then i mean you know um and so that that kind of thing um you know a big name is always is always good exclusivity is always good um if i'm the only you know if you're giving this to me as inclusive for the time exclusive for the post that always helps um yeah i think just being genuinely interesting and also not just truly promotional like i cannot run a press release in the paper that says that your clients new restaurant opens that's just not there are there are hospitality journalists that that that write that for commercial news outlets and like you know that's not me so i'm not i'm not going to be able to write that.

31:50My audience doesn't care. I think the helicopter one is an interesting one because what I think I'm hearing you say too is that publicist didn't just come to you and say, write about my one building and the one helicopter pad. It sounds like they were doing a bit more of a trend story. That is a really good point. I actually think that publicist did tell me about just one building, but if I were to write the story, which I genuinely want to look into it, but, you know, I'm just busy with the two kids in my other job. But I, I, or, you know, the jobs that are the stories that I'm already writing, but I think she did pitch one to me, but I put a call out to some other publicists that I know, and I was able to find some other buildings that are, are housing developments that, but that's interesting, have some kind of connection to helicopters.

32:37Yeah. I think that is a good lesson for anyone who's listening or watching in terms of if that first publicist had pitched you the trend and say, here are other buildings that have done it. You know, I'm connected with the publicists over there, or I know whomever I could give you other sources. I have to wonder if all of a sudden that pitch would rise to the top of your to-do list, because now it sounds like there's a lot of homework that's on you to make that story into something that you know your readers will like. Yeah, I think it would be easier. You know, it's always easier if you can give someone multiple examples.

33:12I also think you should be ready for the reporter to ask you if you have other examples, because again, you know, it's very difficult for us to just write about one thing. So if you're not going to give us that up front, at least be ready to do to help us with that legwork once we ask for it, which we probably will. I want to talk about interviews in general, because I think a lot of people who are tuning in are probably corporate spokespeople. They are media trained. They have done interviews in the past. Now, from my seat as a publicist, I have seen many executives who are very talented and very skilled.

33:48And I have seen some who think they are and who are not. So I'm curious from your perspective, what separates an interviewer or interviewee, I guess I should say, who gives you what you need, but also kind of shifts the narrative towards what they want your story to be about versus somebody who you're like, oh gosh, that's going to end up backfiring. Yeah. I don't think you have a ton of control over that. Stories need to be balanced. So the second home first story, I actually had more

34:24potential pitfalls that someone buying a second home first could encounter in my original copy, but I think they cut it for space reasons. Actually, it got cut. But I like my stories to be balanced, as most people do. And so I don't like to write that something's only a good idea. I always want to at least touch on, you know, how that's, you know, the other side of something. Even if I write a story on, let's say, a historic property that's been renovated and is now hitting the market, you know, I might mention that it doesn't have a pool or doesn't have a view. Right. And so when I think someone's going to be a problem is when they're difficult from the get-go.

35:08And you've just kind of learned this is the kind of person who, if they're asking to see the article before it runs, I don't think you're terribly experienced in what you're doing because we don't do that. I'll have people say, I used to be a journalist. I used to do that all the time. like I don't really want to work with you again because that's like an annoying thing to say um and so it's just like anything else in life like if somebody is easy to deal with then that's then that's a good sign but if somebody's difficult every step of the way you know that it's going to be a headache with when that story runs that they're going to be contacting you and complaining or asking for changes or whatever it is so um also if someone is difficult like if I want to interview us if you put forward a source and the source is like really wishy-washy about whether they want to talk to me I'm like you know what never mind because then they're not going to be happy with anything that I say yeah and I can just ignore their emails and whatever like if they're complaining about it but you know I don't know it could be more of a headache than that and so if I have to unless unless I'm writing about a topic that is is is really good and maybe a little controversial and I'm trying to get like this small-time landlord to talk to me because his perspective, like I'm talking about, you know, people who have publicists and media trained people.

36:31If you're, if you're difficult for me to get ahold of and you're don't, you're not sure that you want to talk to me. Um, I don't, I don't think that that's then, then I'm, I'm, I'm going to be unlikely to work with you because you're good. If you're difficult from the start, you're going to be difficult to the end. This person's not going to get easier to, to deal with When you're interviewing people, especially those who have publicists and teams, do you see certain traits that make people a better interviewer, like the way they speak? Do some people speak in more like pull quotes more easily?

37:05Or how do you see that? What's some advice maybe you could give for people who are giving an interview? you? Honestly, talk a lot because it's really difficult to interview somebody and they give you. Now, as a journalist, you're not supposed to ask yes or no questions, but we do sometimes. I think especially if you're like not an intern and you're specifically never asking yes or no questions, like when you're later in your career, you're asking yes or no questions because you know the person knows that they're supposed to give more than a yes or no answer. But there are sources who have publicists who will literally like you will ask them something like, yes, you're like I can't quote yes so could you give me something more than that you know or um they'll sound maybe a little like impatient with talking to you and it's just kind of like well why are we I'm confused why do you have a publicist if you don't want to be talking to me why do you want to be in the press because you need to talk to the press in order to be in the press that's how that works yes and so um I definitely think talk a lot you can't you can't say the wrong thing because we can work with anything.

38:05The only thing we can't work with is nothing. If you give us no words, we can't work with that. But if you give us a ton of words and it's a run on and, you know, even if it's something's wrong and you have to tell me later, like, that's not wrong. Or I look into it and it's wrong and I have to come back and ask you about it again. Like, that's fine. Just for the love of God, please talk. I find the same thing with a podcast host now. I'm the person who used to write the briefing documents and the talking points and coach the executives. But now I can see when someone I'm speaking to is just reading off of the document and I can feel the difference.

38:38And I know the audience can feel the difference too. When someone is just talking off the cuff and sharing their experience and their true opinion, it's such a more rich conversation. And I imagine from your perspective too, it's going to shape the story, but it's also going to like give you quotes that are actually going to build the story too. They're not, like you said, not just like a yes or no answer. 100 you know i am self-critical but i don't always feel that i'm the most creative writer like i don't have a ton of stories that have like a a five paragraph intro like full of metaphors and and whatever that's just not how that's first of all i haven't had a ton you know i'm always working towards those sets of opportunities to write that type of story but also i think that a lot of my creativity comes from the way that i use quotes i think that's just the type of writer that I am.

39:29And so I love real personality in a quote. I love a joke, you know, make fun of someone, make fun of yourself, you know, whatever it is. Um, that's how I add personality to a lot of my stories, especially these shorter stories where I'm not allowed to have a five word, a five paragraph creative lead. And so I really like, and so publicists will ask me, can you send me questions up front? And I'm like, no, like I'll send you what I'm going to ask about, but I'm not sending you a list of questions up front. I might as well just do the interview by email then, you know we could just i'll just email them and just answer them because there's no and i have at some point it's been like you know what i'm not going to take up my time if you want the i've gave you the questions just send me just send me email answers back because i'm not going to talk to somebody who's reading answers who's scripted yeah and i think that is very normal for people who are tuned in especially these top tier publications by and large they're not going to share questions in advance because they know you know what that means is there's a lot of prep that went on before that phone call happens.

40:29Yeah. And, um, and it's not, again, it's not because I'm trying to trick you and it's not because I'm going to, I'm not, you know, CNN interviewing the president. I'm not going to ask something like out of the blue because I'm trying to make you look like, you know, get one over on you. It's because I want to speak to a real person, even if I'm speaking to the CEO of one of the leading, you know, real estate development companies in the country. I want to get the real person. And so, and it's like, that's what readers respond to, but that's also literally what makes my job more enjoyable to do.

41:02I mean, I have to do this all day. So I want to, I, I enjoy that more and I figure, you know, then readers are going to enjoy it more too. And I've had a lot of compliments from editors that I'm able to put real human, like, you know, real human perspective into my stories. People like that. So that was going on and on. I also want to say, though, that no one is going to let you read the article. Like, stop asking us that. No one is going to let you read the article. If it's an ad and you're paying for it, but no journalist who's worth the words they're writing is going to let you read the article.

41:38And a lot of us have signed literal contracts, legal documents that we are not allowed to do that. Wow. I was even saying, I can't think of one time in my career that I've seen an article before it was published. And here I am, you know, more than two decades into being a publicist. Every single time I read a piece, even if I'm really confident it's going to be positive, I read the whole thing and hold my breath until the very end because you don't know. And that is the beauty of journalism. That's why editorial coverage is so powerful to the reader because it's not an ad. And we know that there's someone really smart on the other side of the keyboard, writing that and shaping the opinions and everything, not based on just pay to play.

42:21Yeah. Yeah. I'm not trying to sell you something. I'm just, you know, giving you something. A lot of times, just giving you something interesting to think about. Yeah. What would be one piece of advice you'd have for someone who is trying to get a meaningful piece of press coverage? I think, again, find find a regular person to talk to or find someone who um has some interesting story to share uh give me something that i can't get anywhere else and that everyone isn't isn't getting if it's an app try to find someone who's using the app you know um and i don't think it's as hard as you think it is have your brothers in have your brother-in-law's best friend's you know, cousin download it and talk to me.

43:07I mean, honestly, um, but it's probably harder than probably that's probably condescending. It's probably harder than I think it is, but, um, find, you know, find someone and, um, and have, if you're, if you're going to, if you're going to give me an expert, have them ready to share something sort of, I don't know, kind of like personal, like, um, you know, they dealt with this problem. And so, you know, would they like martha stewart just launched an app and so when i interviewed her about it i asked her it's a it's a home maintenance app and i was like what home maintenance issues give you a headache at your house yeah you know i mean even martha stewart has i choose she said she said maintaining her atvs and and her tractors is is really annoying i mean you wouldn't think so but even where I was through.

43:57I was like, right. I know. I know. Martha finds it difficult to maintain the engines of her Polaris. So I think that just, I can't stress enough, like a human interest angle and something personal helps a lot for the type of coverage that I do. Yeah. Heather, I want to ask you the last three questions that I ask everyone. And the first is, what was the best hospitality experience that you have ever had? I mean I stayed at a five-star hotel once I was in high school I was this crazy but I was a touring musician and then whole other life I know czar and um we would go on tour and at the end of our tour we would treat ourselves to like a nice you know the adults that were helping us do this because we were we were teenagers would help us stay in a nice hotel and I stayed in this I stayed in the Sheridan Waikiki.

44:52I still remember it. And it had, I mean, we all had robes and every, every room had a balcony overlooking the ocean and it had a jacuzzi tub and it had a sushi restaurant and it had an aquarium in the lobby. And I certainly hadn't been anywhere that nice before or since I stayed in a five-star hotel in Denmark and it was nothing compared to that hotel. I was like, so that was a really nice hospitality experience. I also like when I stay at Airbnb is I like when the person checks in on me and asks if I need help finding like a restaurant. If they know I'm bringing my kids, if they leave like games for my kids to play with, you know, just kind of, again, that personal element where you can see that someone genuinely cares.

45:42it really makes a big difference in making me want to come back and stay again. Yeah. On the flip side of those experiences, what was the worst hospitality experience you've ever had? I mean, going back again, my husband and I stayed in an Airbnb a couple of years ago that it reeked of cigarettes and the jacuzzi had sand in it. Oh. And that kind of was not, that's my, maybe that's not my worst of all time. You know, I mean, I've stayed, I've traveled a lot. So I have stayed in like, you know, places with brown running. I mean, I've stayed in lots of places. But most recently in my like more established married adult life, that was pretty gross.

46:26Don't let people smoke in your faces. Yeah. So. Final question for you. What does hospitality mean to you? And is there anyone? It could be a person in your life. It could be a brand that you think has truly mastered it. I think it's taking care of people. I have a really good friend up here who happens to be a real estate agent. We don't know each other through work. We know each other personally. But she is so good at taking care of people. For example, when my dad was intubated when he was dying, she dropped off. I didn't actually didn't even know her at the time, which is my husband knew her husband and I kind of knew her husband, but I didn't know her.

47:11She dropped off like six bags of groceries, you know, and she didn't ask me what I need and like what I eat and if I have any allergies or whatever. She just dropped off food. And she has just been when she hosts. I mean, you want to go to her house. She'll have like she has a clawfoot tub in her backyard that she fills with ice and drinks. you know um she invited me over for a barbecue like just me and the kids it was like the most elaborate but it doesn't even have to be that way it's just that she genuinely enjoys taking care of people and she's so generous she never expects anything in return um you know it's not like you know i'll get you this time you get me next time she's just don't stop stop you know um and you have to have like the means to do that but it's just a it's just a it's just a thoughtfulness that she has that I bet she's a really good real estate agent.

48:02Um, and, um, and it's, um, she takes like actual pleasure in, in taking care of people and making people feel, you know, cared for. That's an excellent example. Yeah, absolutely. Heather, thank you so much for joining us today and for giving us a little bit of behind the scenes on the world of media. Sure. Thank you too. All right, everyone. It's time for today's sweet summary, where I break down the key insights and actionable takeaways from today's conversation. I'm so lucky to get to hear from so many of you working in different roles across different industries and in different corners of the world.

48:41But what unites us all is a shared passion for hospitality. And I believe another thing that unites us all is a universal desire for great press coverage and equally maybe a fear or general misunderstanding of how to actually make that press coverage happen. So today we got to turn the tables and hear directly from a New York Times journalist about what it really takes to land meaningful media coverage. So what did Heather say? Well, what makes a good story is not the same thing as here's my press release. Just because your company has something exciting for you to announce doesn't automatically make it newsworthy.

49:24Heather talked about the importance of finding an unexpected angle, identifying a broader trend, and bringing people into the story, particularly real people. So rather than simply pitching your new hotel opening, think about what that opening says about the way people are traveling, what makes it different, and why someone who's never heard of your brand should care. Second, make the journalist's job easier. do your homework, understand what they cover, come prepared with sources, examples, and actual numbers, and be ready to respond quickly. As I've been writing the summary, I received about 20 pitches.

50:06The most recent one was a follow-up, seeing if I was indeed interested in featuring a business owner who created a better cover for his Camaro, the car. And this was to be featured on my other podcast, Second Home First, which has absolutely zero to do with cars. Don't just copy and paste your pitch for quantity. Focus on the quality. And finally, don't confuse media training with being overly rehearsed. Instead, Heather suggested you simply talk more. Now, as a former publicist, I'm a little wary of this suggestion, but here's what she means. Journalists need personality, anecdotes, and interesting quotes to bring their stories to life.

50:52If you're so focused on delivering your three approved talking points that you stop having a real conversation, you may actually be making it harder for that journalist to tell a compelling story on your behalf. I've even seen that on this show. My favorite conversations and the ones that are the most memorable for you viewers and listeners are the ones where someone was honest, had stories and anecdotes to share and at the risk of using an overused buzzword was authentic. Earning great press coverage isn't about convincing someone to promote your business. It's about helping them to tell a story their audience genuinely wants to read or hear and finding a way to do that that happens to promote your business.

51:37The next time you're preparing a media pitch, ask yourself, If I took my company's name out of this story, would it still be interesting? And before you reach out to a journalist, read something they've written or listen to a podcast they've produced, taking just a few minutes to understand their work can be the difference between landing meaningful press coverage or causing a massive eye roll. I'm looking at you, Mr. Camaro Man. As Heather put it, give me something that I can't get anywhere else and that everyone else isn't getting. And that concludes another episode of Sweet Success. If you enjoyed today's conversation, please subscribe, rate, and review the show.

52:17We all know how important those five-star reviews are. I also wanna say a massive thank you to each and every one of you for tuning in. It means the absolute world to me. And I'd love to hear from you. If you have ideas for future guests, new topics to cover, or even just wanna say hi, don't be shy. Message me through our website, sweetsuccesspodcast.com or on social media at Sweet Success Podcast. That's sweet like hotel suite. Once again, I'm your host, Katie Klein, and I'm super excited to see you all next week. ZS is a global consulting and technology firm that partners with companies to improve life and how we live it.

52:56Working with the world's top hospitality brands, ZS brings together data, science, technology, and human ingenuity to transform ideas into customer loyalty. They're ready to help you elevate guest experiences, improve operations, and uncover preferences and motivations through their AI-powered solutions. With more than 1 ,700 clients in over 170 countries, ZS has built the expertise, fortitude, and vision to help you deliver impact right where it matters.