Live @ NYSE, Netflix to Acquire Warner Bros. | Keith Rabois, Emily Sundberg, Adam Faze

34:07I've worked at these companies. I've run these companies where we've said like, no, no, no, no, no. Our use case is special. No one's going to build an e-commerce site exactly the way we want to build it. And so we wind up building an entire e-commerce stack custom. And then a couple of years later, Shopify just catches up and then boom, you're on, you're back on Shopify. And that just happened time and time again. I lived it at Soylent. It was a wild, wild time. This is some wild news. Logan Paul, Jake Paul and Jeff Wu are starting an eight week accelerator. It's a 25 K safe followed by a hundred thousand dollar price round for a total of 7 % equity.

34:45A lot of people are confused about doing it as a price round for a hundred K. A founder could easily end up spending like 30 grand, you know, like depending on who their lawyer is, like actually, it's like a hundred K investment. And then you have like, let's assume you're like super efficient and it's like 10 grand it's like yeah it's kind of annoying and then yeah it's it's it's uh it's annoying um that said i think there's a lot of interesting businesses that could go through this that would really benefit from working with jake and and logan and jeff right so interesting that it's a 25 safe and then a hundred thousand dollar price around like why not just 125 for seven percent like on a on a on a safe with a cap that insures being at 7 % no matter what, like, uh, that feel, I would love to talk to them.

35:33I think hopefully we're going to be able to get Jeff Wu on the show at some point. We can ask him about how he is, you know, thinking about that particular term. I know a lot of people here are saying like, oh, 7 % for 125 K that's low. Uh, and that's certainly lower than YC YC. You come in with like, I think a$10 million valuation. This is more like a$1 million valuation. Um, but, uh, You know, if you're an earlier in your career, you're not ready to go to a different higher valuation. Like this could still be a good or you don't need a lot of capital for your business. You do need a lot of attention.

36:06Like I could see some consumer brands getting started this way. I mean, I just remember like YC was my North Star for like what I wanted to get into with my first business. But like I got denied the first time I applied and I was like, if you gave me$5 ,000 for 10 % of business, like I would take it because I want to work on my thing and I want to keep going. And like, yes, at some point it can be predatory, but like with some of the first ideas that I was coming up with, like I definitely didn't deserve 125K for 7 % because they were like slop companies that were like very unlikely to succeed.

36:37So I don't know. There's something interesting. I do wonder if they will position this as, okay, you're going to be able to accelerate on the go-to-market side. You're going to be able to accelerate on the creator side, creator partnerships. uh this will be there's a whole bunch of different ways it could be something where you are you're going through this accelerator because you get to ask logan and jake about their media creation their creator work and then you're you're launching your company yeah more likely to go viral because these guys really understand virality on the other side it could be you're coming in and you're taking a crack at building something that might wind up being more like an incubation for them uh because i'm sure that they want to launch a bunch of products This is a way to just kind of take swings and get close to working with people.

37:25And then if something lines up, they could say, hey, we actually want to do like a 50-50 deal. And this is going to be like Logan and Jake as co-founders of the next thing that they're working on together. And we're going to really, really push this for you. We'll be your marketing arm. It will be interesting to see where these companies go. Jeff and Jake, I think, are coming on the show in the next couple weeks before the end of the year. So we will be able to ask them more about that. Before we move on, let me tell you about Profound. Get your brand mentioned in chat, GPT, and more. Reach millions of consumers who use AI to discover new products and brands.

37:56Aaron has a good post here. What Aaron said? It says the remaining Apple leadership team. Who is this? And it's Travis Scott, Tim Cook, and MrBeast. MrBeast did say that he's going to film on iPhones. I'm not sure what the Travis Scott connection is. Has he done a partnership with Apple in one of those? No, there are still plenty of folks. eddie q is still there the apple leadership team is still stacked don't you worry don't you worry there are still people here uh and we have our first guest boy in uh in the restream waiting room getting geared up physical restream waiting room uh they put the moon on the sphere they put cheese on the sphere now uh we're uh the sphere vegas says we're sending out the last supermoon of 2025 with something special using nasa's public domain lunar data our team built a true to science moon that is that's lighting up this las vegas skyline this looks really cool absolutely insane i still think the super the sphere is like underrated it's so cool like what i don't know how to build beautiful things anymore make it make sense yeah we do we do people look at this and they think uh you know the new york stock exchange how did they build this was this built by humans there's a lot of debate uh but the sphere really really reinstates yes we can build amazing things yeah humans built that yeah humans build the sphere have you heard about the heating the like the the level of uh of like engineering that went into actually driving the screens on the outside because so oh at that scale like the each pixel is not like your laptop it's not like your phone it's like a bright light like each pixel is like this big and it's a light yeah then and so So that light, even if it's an LED, it still produces heat.

39:41And then you have a whole bunch of them that are all heating each other up. Right next to each other. And then you put it in the hottest place in the world in the desert. And so there's just been a phenomenal amount of energy. And I'm surprised. You know people are so ready to dunk on this and be like, oh, it failed. If it shot off, if it showed a blue screen of death or an error message, that would be so viral. That would actually be a good campaign. That would be a great campaign. if you were marketing it and the video that you put up showed the the the like the windows blue screen of death like the fail like oh it broke because then you'd go viral if someone was like oh wow like what were they advertising oh they were running an ad for tbpn and the ad was too good and it crashed the whole software or something because you know the shelf life guys came on they were like we're doing this live we're live streaming to the sphere is very cool um but uh but if you if you crash if you can figure out how to crash the sphere at least make it look like you cross the sphere.

40:32I think you have some viral potential. Well, let me tell you about numeral.com compliance handled numeral worries about sales tax and VAT compliance. So you can focus on growth. And we have our first guest of the show. We have Keith for boy here in New York city coming on down. Ooh, look at his span. Thank you, Keith. Good to see you. How are you doing? Thank you so much. Thanks for having us. You are the mayor of New York now. Uh, we, we love it. It's a great setup. It looks great. And obviously, it gives us easy access to folks like you. That's true. So thanks so much for coming on down. How have you been?

41:09What's new in your world? Great. Pretty busy. You might have heard Venture's pretty busy right now. It is. People doing deals every day, investing left and right, crazy valuations. Is that a green flag for you or is that a red flag? It's hard to tell. I think a lot of people are going to lose money. Hopefully, we're not included. But the valuations have an extra zero. Yes. Sometimes, too. Literally, before this recent trend, I had never invested an entry price for any normal company above an$86 million valuation. Yeah. And that whole world is completely different. Yeah. So everything seems to have...

41:45How many deals a year are you trying to get in under 10? I would love to do them all. No, no, I know. But realistically, in the last years, maybe one a year. Somebody you knew well. My philosophy is bold, early, impactful. Bold, early, impactful. That's the KV mantra. I love that. So early means first institutional capital. Even today, if you're right, bold and early, that's maybe over$10 million. It used to be$500K. When I invested in Airbnb, it was$500K,$3.5 million post. DoorDash was something like 8 to 10 post. Yeah. So, you know, the world's very, very different. Now, there are going to be epic companies.

42:30Like, what is very clear is some of these companies are absolutely iconic and will be iconic for decades. I doubt there's as many as people think. So the argument goes that, you know, we've changed the physics and there's going to be 40, 50, 60, 70, 80,$100 billion plus companies. I don't believe that stuff. It's really not on the consumer side. I don't believe it on the consumer side. possibly an enterprise if you believe AI is going to transform every business everywhere possibly but the consumer side, consumers are busy there's only 24 hours in a day tech doesn't change that yet and so every time someone adopts a new app, a new product as a consumer they have to substitute from their friends from their family, from church from basketball and so the bar just keeps going up so I don't really believe there's going to be too many breakthrough consumer companies, chatGPT OpenAI will be one not really sure who else.

43:22And it just feels like we're in this era where if you do have a breakthrough, the big tech companies are in an offensive position. They're in wartime mode. Some of them, like Meta, are founder-led still. They're still in founder mode, and so you're going to have a pretty good copycat on your tail within six months of you going viral, within a year. I think that is an interesting dynamic. Typically, the large companies, we'd all make fun of. All of us are entrepreneurs, and we'd all make fun of these old sluggish, you know, large companies with tens of thousands. Now they're our friends. Well, they may not be your friends, but they are fast and they are paying attention.

43:56Yeah. Like they're usually sloppy and slow. Yep. Like I remember when we were doing PayPal, eBay was like the most incompetent organization on the planet. Yes. Like Google was literally being built underneath them. Yes. And eBay hired like management consultants at Bain and told them, don't worry about Google. Like that was the classic like large tech company. Yes. And admittedly, Meg was worse than most. But still, now all the large tech companies, except Apple, seem to be paying attention. Apple is behind the eight ball in AI. Yeah, unpack that a little bit because there's a lot of departures.

44:25And you're wearing an Apple wash today. You're not giving it up. I'm sure you have fun. Okay. So the hardware is still the best. What's the nature of the risk? Because I don't see us actually going somewhere else. Because we're locked in, right? I think building vertically integrated products. So to do hardware well, you need hardware skills, supply chain, battery innovation. That's before you get to the software. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But does somebody figure out how to do an AI unique, unique to AI custom device that is compelling? Possibly. Depends on what time frame we're talking. Next year, unlikely.

45:01Yeah. Ten years, I'd be willing to bet. More likely than not. Yeah. So at some point, Apple will be experts. Bernard Arnault has a best quote here. He's like, and it's something like in 50 years, will people be drinking champagne? I think yes. In 50 years, will we all be using iPhone? He's like, I'm not sure. Yeah, I'll take the champagne or at least tequila. But how is your how is your kind of view on Google's like competitiveness in AI changed over time, if at all? Well, I think we had a debate several, several years ago. Is it, you know, a sustaining innovation, you know, disruptive innovation?

45:39After ChatGBT, it's clearly more disruptive, potentially. And I do think, though, they are paying attention. They are taking it seriously. That said, ChatGBT is still the fastest-growing product, consumer product, in the last, like, 15 years. Yep. And I think if OpenAI plays its cards well and focuses on ChatGBT versus gets distracted as being a pure research lab, so there's probably this tension there. Research lab, AGI, blah, blah, comes at sacrificing the quality of speed. It's just that, but it's a let's launch a short-form video app. Let's automate. Let's do all the science. Let's do they, Sam, I mean, I think Sam's answer to Brad, which kicked off like a broader discussion, he was saying, we're fine.

46:22We're going to do consumer electronics and we're going to do science. And I think a lot of people read into that and just say like, hey, Google does that. They lose a lot of money on it. It's not exactly their profits. And those are their bets. Google mints money. Yeah. so that it's going to be clear so they can fund it. I think there's some things that Sam has to do. Hardware is probably one. Because the risk that somebody else puts AI together on a consumer device before he does can rip them sort of out of the future. What do you think about, how are you processing Apple with Gemini as a risk to chat GPT?

46:55I don't, I haven't stopped you. Because, like, to be clear, like, Gemini has an amazing model. They're well behind on just a product experience standpoint. But there are quite a lot of searches that I hit ChatGPT or Gemini with that like a Siri integrated with Gemini, I'd be going there right away if it was like integrated. Yeah, it depends on the kind of query you're doing or prompt you're doing. Yeah, but right now if I hit like for a fact, that's not that far away from doing a comp. Sure, but then there's other kinds of prompts where you didn't use to maybe even use Google. Like, for example, I asked Chachamiddy to write a book outline for me, a book proposal.

47:32I wouldn't have thought of it. No, you're not Googling that. You could probably one-shot a book with a great problem. Because you have so many podcasts. That outline was just so much about you. That outline was actually good. You've done like 300 hours of podcasts. And it was moderately creative. What I expected, and this blew me away, was that there was a spark of ingenuity to the proposal. It wasn't just like break down the middle. Totally. I tried it on Gemini. So you're writing a book? No, but maybe one day. You see, the problem with long-form content is apparently because of token rationing.

48:02Rationing? Rationing, yeah. Okay. If you try long-form content, they only spend a certain amount of tokens on you. Sure. So it degrades. So you'd have to write almost like a paragraph or a page at a time. Okay. Otherwise, the quality will degrade. Sure. But the outline, the proposal was actually quite good. I did try it on Gemini. It wasn't as good. Yeah. So I think 5.1, Chachipti 5.1 thinking mode actually still has a bit of a human personality. And I don't see that when I try the same prompts in Gemini. So I think you could build an excellent, cutting-edge human personality product if you focus.

48:36And then I think you do need to try a device just to make sure you're not blindsided by somebody else. Some of the other stuff, though, may interfere. There's only so much talent. There's only so much bandwidth. Sam only has so many hours in the day, et cetera. May interfere with success with ChatGPT. ChatGPT should be a$4 trillion business if you maximize it. Talk about hardware. It feels like we're in this weird era where everything is getting more capital intensive earlier and earlier. We were talking to John Cito yesterday. So this is a good question. I think there's some companies where that's true.

49:09Sometimes have markets, sometimes have products. I think other people are raising capital for no apparent reason. Like, let's talk Harvey, illegal AI. I have a competitor investment that doesn't need a lot of capital. Which one are you in? It's called Spellbook. Oh, Spellbook. Yeah, Spellbook. They target somewhat different markets, but they're actually illegal AI. But there's no real reason to spend that money. Like, in other words, their compute costs can't be that high. Sure, because they should be able to pass that through as gross margin. Like, they should have good gross margins on day one.

49:34So when I invest in AI companies, so two-thirds or three-quarters, somewhere in between, of all my investments over the last 18 months are AI-based. Yes. Mostly application layer, but not all. Yes. All the application layer ones, I expect them to have positive gross margins. Yes. Extremely positive gross margins, actually. Yes. I'm like, you have to build a business, too. Yeah. And I don't believe in these excuses. Now, if you're building frontier models and cutting edge or you're going to do hardware, you're clearly going to spend money or infrastructure. Clearly you're going to lose money intentionally.

50:00And that's always been true in tech. But if you're building an application layer, I don't buy that your margins should be upside down. There was this hilarious expose on Hacker News about AI startups that aren't actually training their own models. They're just wrappers. And they were breaking down the gross margin. I was like, this is a VC's celebration. It looks good. It looks good. The only thing that was bad is they were making the claim that they were more of a research organization. They were training models when they're not. But my takeaway was that the wrapper market is extremely healthy in certain markets.

50:32Because workflow, you have to productize things. If I'm working as an investment banker or an accountant or a lawyer, it's not just the performance of the model I care about. It's like how efficient, how does it improve my life? And that's a function of how intuitive is the UI, how easy does it make the entire job to be done, so to speak, be able to be accomplished. So it's not just a model performance. I think when I'm looking for an application layer CEO, I want them to really understand what their ability for, why, and what the P &L impact to their target customers are. In legal, it's actually a complicated question because of the bill of power.

51:10You don't necessarily want to make your lawyers more efficient if you're on a law firm. We've been talking about this so much. We had, I know a lawyer who switched firms because he knew he was with a big, like probably top 30 law firm. He's like, they are not going to adjust in time. Like there's no, they're like, we like that our associates are just running up hours on tasks that could be one-shotted by AI. I built 3 ,600 hours my last month as a lawyer. And what is this? Last month. Yeah. Next time someone tells you they're working too hard in tech. I literally built 3 ,600 hours. Now that was not the average month, but still.

51:45I hit over$3 ,000 a few months a year, though, usually. But an associate today will do like a few thousand a year? The culture is degraded. Wait, but how do you bill$3 ,000 a month? I wasn't even as good as a firm in a year. I wasn't anywhere near the top 5%. You mean a year, right? You mean a year, right? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. 360 – oh, sorry, here it is. 360 hours in January 2000. Okay, okay. That makes sense. But the top associates in S &C were over$3 ,000 for the year. Yeah. I'd be like$2 ,600,$2 ,700. So I was a slacker. I mean, you're a buyer of legal products as well as an investor in legal AI products.

52:20Are you advising your portfolio companies to push harder on their law firms to get better deals? Well, they are. So every founder I know actually uses ChatGPT for legal research. Then they call up their lawyer, and their lawyer is giving them advice, and they're literally chatting. Sometimes they're actually screenshotting and saying, what you're telling me is wrong. Does ChatGPT need some legal – clearly a lot of people are using it, But there was just a judgment today that was requiring ChatGPT to turn over a bunch of stuff. So it's not privileged. It's technically not privileged. Sure. So it's complicated to use it.

52:51We'll see how the law is, but it's probably the right decision as a legal matter. But I do know, I had a conversation with the CEO of a more than$100 billion company. And he has a legal team that spends$40 million a year. And he authorized all his lawyers to use ChatGPT. Wow. He's just like, look, you need to adopt this tool. I mean, they all use Google. Make it more efficient. Right, of course. So if a lawyer technically uses ChatGPT, it might be privileged. But if you as a consumer, normal person, input stuff like, oh, how do I hide the word of weapon? That is definitely not privileged. I wonder if there are certain businesses that start and build knowing that they're going to get sued a lot.

53:30I wonder if this levels the playing field for businesses like that that are going after markets that don't want innovation. And they can just say, yeah, we would have needed a team of 20 lawyers back in the day. but actually now we can have a few really efficient... Yeah, well, there are startups in the legal space that basically are a substitute for a lawyer. Sure. And then there's the legal AI startups that make lawyers more efficient. And which is Spellbook? Spellbook is making lawyers, mostly making lawyers more successful. For firms and now for companies. Got it. We have a lot of, actually, fortune thousands in companies.

54:00Okay. Because you think about the incentives of a corporate legal department. Yep. They're different than the law firm frenzyers. Yep. Like, corporate legal departments want to spend less and get faster responses. Yep. So it makes tons of sense. And then you can customize to the culture of that company. So like eBay uses Spellbook, for example. And they have their own preferences about how they want to practice law. And we can implement that on software versus like Google's not a customer, but Google might have different preferences. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, we've been seeing this new trend. I mean, the lineage here in legal is ClearSpire and then Atrium.

54:31And now people are trying it again. What do you think about folks who say, I was on a particular track where I'd be at a firm. Now I'm going to start an AI-powered firm. Should they be raising money or should they just go do that on their own? Well, usually the way they start, though, is a ratio of humans and models. It's not like just all models. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? So you're going to have to pay lawyers for a while. You want to take the ratio from 80 % humans to 80 % automation and hopefully quickly. Atrium basically never did that. Sure. And maybe they didn't have the technology to do it.

55:02They got hooked on the drug, I think. Yeah. I knew some of the machine learning folks at Atrium at the time, and they were like, we're close to understanding documents with AI. But close doesn't pay the bills. It doesn't pay the bills. So you still get a human in the loop technically for most of these products right now. That's going to change. And the ratio should be like one human for 99 customers or 99 documents or 9 ,000 documents. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then the economics could work. But I think you would need to raise venture money up front. Sure. Also, maybe for credibility. There's some signaling.

55:32People are buying enterprise companies. Enterprise, all across the globe, any vertical, are buying AI products. That's what would allow these vertical application companies to hit$100 million in revenue quickly. There's top-down demand at very large Fortune companies. How do you assess quality of revenue if a founder comes to you and says, yeah, I am raising at$100 million for my first round, but I have a$5 million deal with some Fortune 500 company, and so it's really not that crazy of a revenue multiple. But then you start wondering, obviously, is that going to stick or can they just bounce?

56:05We ask for the contract, actually, because the terms may vary. Often ask to call the customer. Why are you buying this? What do you hope it does and achieve? What are the business goals? How confident are you that you're achieving those business goals? So that's actually a pretty standard reference. Just as due diligence. Does that mean that the level of due diligence required on these deals, even if the early stage, like the round numbers, it might still be a seed, but it's a bigger number. You're treating it with the due diligence that you would bring to an A. I think you do need to look at what's the source of the revenue?

56:37What are the terms of that relationship? Are they a pilot, permanent, do they have cancellation rights? And then you can look at the underlying metrics like we always used to, which is what's the active usage? Yeah. Like ultimately, and everybody in your organization is using the product. Yeah. Even if you have the contractual right to cancel, you're not canceling it. So like you can look at MAUs, DAUs, all those kinds of things. And actually, we do tend to look at that. I tend to personally look at the engagement metrics as much as the revenue metrics. You also look at the margin metrics because ultimately, like, yeah, if you give away, someone pays$5 million, that costs you$10 million.

57:07Yeah. It's a great deal. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, that's not a long-term business. I mean, if you're an enterprise, you know, CIO or CTO, you're probably getting pitched some stuff where you're like, wait, I was going to buy those tokens anyway. Yeah. They were going to give me half the cost. And I don't even have the infrastructure to run it, so it's like, totally. I don't have to buy it. I don't have the fixed price. Totally. There was a lot of bearishness around certain vertical-specific AI tools and enterprise AI after that MIT report came in that nobody read the source material. And just anecdotally, it feels incorrect.

57:41But I think the simplistic way to look at it is, like, will large companies spend more on AI in 2026 than 2025? And I think, like, you'd lean like, yes. Answers definitely, yes. I mean, I think you could critique. You're right. Nobody read the report. They just look at the high line, you know, the X or something. But I think it comes down to, as Vinod has talked about, the quality of the implementation. If you have the right people implementing it, you're going to get high-quality results. If you just think the software is just going to show up out of the box, it's going to work and transform organization, highly unlikely, unless the product was designed to be that way.

58:13There are a few products that you see that, you know, are designed for a consumer or a user, like an average employee, to just use out of the box. That's pretty rare. Usually you have some implementation hurdle. And I suspect a lot of these things are getting trapped in the implementation sort of box somewhere. Do you think that? No, sorry. You guys have stayed out of the prediction market wars? We have not invested in a prediction market. Was there a moment where you wanted to and the dynamics of the round didn't work out? Or was that a conscious choice? It's a good question. Maybe I've been burned because I helped start and seed invested way back in the day, this thing called BlueBet, which is an early prediction market.

58:54It's a really cool product. Kevin Hart's job and I worked with this founder on back in the day. It was like 2005 or 2006. Was it from YouTube or PayPal? Yeah. Yeah, right? There's never any new ideas. We could never get it to work. The hardest part that made it work wasn't like on the better side or the wager side. It was actually getting enough bets. And maybe now with AI you can scalably create enough interesting bets. We had to do it by hand. Sure. We just never could get that treadmill working. Well, you maybe didn't do sports betting. Well, we didn't do sports betting. It was illegal. So, yeah, obviously, there's a lot on-ramp attraction has been sports and then cleverly politics.

59:30But we did have political bets there. And so, anyway, maybe I was burned by that. Then there's another question, which is I like the political markets. Yeah. I said we're bold early and impactful. home, you do have to start thinking about which market segments are actually positive impact in society. Sure. Like just giving average Americans more places to gamble certainly is not something I want to invest in. Now, there are markets that are illiquid and the byproduct of the liquidity is a good thing for society like politics. Yep. But I don't want too many people speculating. Like Americans don't have a lot of money.

1:00:04They gamble. That's fine. They bet on sports now, which may be fine. They bet on crypto, whether they call it that or not. Yeah. So adding more speculation to the American consumer, I'm not sure is something I want to invest my time in. How much attention have you paid to just this tension between states clearly want to regulate this stuff, and yet the CFTC has decided, like, hey, these are event contracts. It's under our jurisdiction. How have you kind of watched that play? Well, obviously the polymarket guys have played their cards really well. Controversial at the beginning, probably very high risk.

1:00:40I saw Alfred Lynn talking about it a little bit. I'm sure he probably opposed it, but the founder was pretty tenacious and it worked out. They all played the regulatory cards in interesting different ways, so it's worked out well for them. But the story's not over. Well, I think they're in pretty good shape. The biggest issue they had historically was more U.S. citizens were using their products before they were supposed to. but I think the statute of limitations might sort of be hitting that. Sure, yeah. It's fascinating. Do you think this will be a political issue in the next cycle? I doubt it.

1:01:16In terms of tech stuff that we've been monitoring, it feels like the AI data center, energy use, water use, those are the questions that people want to answer in D.C., job displacement stuff. Job displacement is obviously top of a lot. That's a bigger question than, okay, yeah, my uncle, he was always a sports better, now he uses a different platform. Like, it's kind of a status quo. I think unless people start losing a lot of money. So, you know, in sports betting, you definitely have this. You have the opposite of whales. People, you know, whales, the company. Totally. But, like, people lose a massive amount of money.

1:01:46And that becomes a really sad story for them, for their family. And it becomes a political issue then. If, for some reason, you get more people betting, betting, waitering, whatever, predicting, but they're not, like, massively exposed, I think then it won't be a political issue. Yeah, yeah. I mean, we've been tracking AI diffusion. We're obviously excited about a lot of the products getting in people's hands, like Spellbook, like Law Firm for legal AI. At the same time, we're just not seeing that much job displacement. Maybe it's coming, but it feels like there are, if whatever's happening, when somebody lays people off, it's probably not because they're just, oh, now it's just a prompt.

1:02:25But do you think tech needs to do a better job of telling that story or understanding how? Well, absolutely. Tech is not in the future. I was in a speech that President Trump gave, and he says, I don't like the terms artificial intelligence. You guys need better branding. And nobody's come up with a better answer. I think someone should. Artificial intelligence sounds scary. It does. It sounds bad. Robots. When you say you're having artificial sweeteners. So I think you can rebrand it. Something like that. Yeah. Because right now, it really is like a power-up. If you're a very creative. It's credit to Satya Nadella and the Microsoft folks.

1:02:56The co-pilot feels like, okay, I have a helpful assistant that's alongside me. Does the co-pilot ever put the pilot out of business? Never. Not yet. Not yet. Maybe it happens, but in general. Yeah, but you have a long tail and kind of situation on planes that makes it prudent. But I don't think there's going to be job elimination. I think there's going to be job substitution. Sure. We need more data centers. Well, to build data centers requires a lot of advanced plumbing, a lot of advanced electricians. These people get paid a lot of money. You're hearing the story. They're getting plenty of money.

1:03:27Three times the PJs. three to five acts easily the median income of the United States. So we're going to be building a lot of infrastructure. Building infrastructure creates jobs. Are the people who are doing this now going to have to substitute something else? Maybe. But I do think there is going to be some substitution for white collar work, like accounting lawyers, maybe primary care doctors. So what advice would you give to a high school student? I think you should still read. Learn reading, writing, and math very well. Well, even though the computers can read, they can write, and they can definitely do math.

1:04:01You need to know the fundamentals. I mean, there's a research paper I retweeted this week about if you handwrite your notes, first type your notes in class, on any metric, you can match back. And where? If they're in middle school, if they're in high school, should they be fighting to the nail again in the Ivy League? Where are they going? Where are they learning? Well, that's a good question. Chill fellows seem to work out well. It does. I'm a fan. I'm a fan. You know, my kids are four. I hope by the time. They better not have to go to college by the time they grow up. It'd be really sad. Because you're not saving for it?

1:04:28I know. Sorry, no call. We're spending it on AI. We'll give them a little data center. What about for the next generation of entrepreneurs that are just getting to Silicon Valley right now, and they're seeing a trend of what we call the deal guy yuga, the deal guy era, this idea that it used to be you get to Silicon Valley, and you're writing code. The earnest hacker. And you're in the basement or you're in the garage. You write the code, and then you put it on the Internet, and everyone shows up, and your elegant algorithm just produces Google, and then you create a trillion dollars in value.

1:05:01And it's because you're the PhD scientist, you're the mathematician that you get rewarded. And now it feels like you can maybe make it in Silicon Valley, maybe not caring so much about the technical aspects, but instead about the deals, putting pieces together. That's a little scary. So the funny thing, though, is people use Sam as an example of this. But he was running a research lab for years. Yeah. And so even though maybe he's— He was a CS dropout, too. Yeah, he was also a CS dropout and definitely built an app. Yeah, he built an app. So the reason why it's scary, and this is maybe portraying my age, is back in the late bubble, internet bubble in 96, 2000, there used to be all these what we used to call business dev people running around all the companies and doing all these deals.

1:05:41And then the bubble collapsed. And a lot of people ascribed the bubble and collapse to these business dev people. Oh, interesting. So everybody stopped using the label. What was the last time you met a business dev version? Yeah. Like, never. for the last 25 years. BDR, BDR, but they're like lower. They're like rebranded. Well, BizDev was like higher. It was like quite a few. That was like, I come to you, I say, Keith, I'm going to give you$100 million of revenue. And you're like, funny enough, I'm also going to give you$100 million. So$100 million in the company, I'm going to give you$100 million of revenue.

1:06:10That was the classic example. So that's how I started my career at Tech, actually, as a BizDev person. And if you look at my LinkedIn profile, it's still there. Okay. But it became like this, you know, sort of negative signal on your resume. Those are business people running around. And so everybody's doing that now. That is a scary indication that maybe we're hitting some people. Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, would your advice to new entrepreneurs say, ignore the noise, ignore the frothy rounds, retreat to what? Product market fit? Yeah. Programming? Well, pot eye. I think, look, ultimately deliver value.

1:06:43I think it's actually really simple, building a startup. It's like you create a value proposition. Yes. And then you explain the value proposition to people. You're a pin post. And then you actually, yeah, yeah. There's market, you know, that's basically it. Like, what is my value proposition to who? Like, what do I do for you that's good for you? It could be good for your business. It could be good for your life. And then can I articulate that in a way that causes you to interrupt your life and test it out and verify those claims? And then rinse your repeat. So you can create a value proposition through massive use of technology.

1:07:13Create it through design. You can create it through the intersection of humans, design, and technology. It doesn't actually matter, but you have to have a very crisp, succinct, compelling value proposition. In business cases, you want to move the P &L of your customers. Like I had an enterprise company, maybe the only true enterprise company I ever funded and joined the board of, where our first customer was Walmart. Everybody's like, no, how's Walmart going to be your first customer? And they spent$5 billion on us. The reason why was we figured out there was one of the top three priorities for the company we could address.

1:07:45Our second customer was AT &T, another classic customer. Spent$10 million. It was a telecom. It wasn't AT &T. It was a different telecom, actually. Our technology allowed them to understand their churn better. What's the only issue in a telecom business? Churn. Subscriber churn. That's the only thing that matters because they all compete on churn. Somebody else is going to offer some phone. Nobody had a technology that could literally take all their data and actually figure out why people were churning. So if you have the correct value proposition, all of the rules are changed. So just dial into the value proposition and then figure out how to articulate it, which sometimes can be different per my post.

1:08:22Sometimes you have actually marketing fit, and sometimes you actually have your product positioning fit, and sometimes you actually have value proposition fit. Sometimes you start with both, but sometimes you're bad at one, and it kind of masks and it is not clear that you're actually really good at the other. Yeah, marketing market fit will mask the lack of product market fit for about a year. Yeah. The other one doesn't get masked. Sometimes it's hard to fix. You may go back to the product and think you don't have a value prop. You actually do. You just can't explain it because you only get a certain amount of attention to explain.

1:08:53You've got to distill it. Once you distill it to the right people, then it might take off without changing the product. But that's the art. A true CRO is actually good at this art of triangulation. How do you, there's been some kind of coalitions or not really coalitions, but Walmart and Etsy have leaned into LLM commerce. They've partnered with OpenAI. Amazon and eBay have not yet. Shopify has. How do you, who do you think is going to look smart in two years for like leaning into these platforms early? Well, I think leaning in to learn. So there's a question, are they leaning in or are they leaning in to learn?

1:09:28Leaning in to learn is a great idea. Like, if you're Shopify, of course. Like, will people use ChatGPT in a way that leads to product discovery and product purchases? A friend of ours has a Shopify brand. They do, like,$200 million of revenue. He says people that land on his site from ChatGPT convert at 12%, which is, like, insanely high. That I agree with. I'm sure that's true because it's authoritative in the recommendations. Sure. The signal is better than a blue link. However, the question is the volume and what's the increase in that volume? Yeah. Like, how much of it's low today? Yeah. So that's the question is, what does that change and what triggers that change?

1:10:02What catalyzes it? But, I mean, you know, we invested in a company called Profound. They're a sponsor. They're a sponsor. Yeah, so they allow you as a brand to track how various, whether it's Gemini, Chat2P, etc., are showcasing your products and brands. That's critical to the future. But what consumers ultimately decide to do, do they actually start using Chat2P to recommend the next issue to them or not? I think in some verticals almost surely yes. I want Christmas data so badly. I feel like this is the first year that we're really going to get an answer, at least the labs will now. I don't know if we'll figure it out, but about the agentic shopping, just the propensity.

1:10:42So let me give you an example of something they can solve. So think that you're a guy and you want to buy a new blazer. I need a blazer so I don't look ridiculous for you guys. You're looking like a nice Christmas sweater. So I've got to figure out what blazer is going to fit me off the rock. I don't have time to get a tailor. Sure. almost an impossible task, like today. Literally, you'd actually, even if you know your fashion, almost an impossible task. You might know your brand. It's a roll on the dice. I can imagine, though, ChatGPT kind of knows what I buy, how it fits, what things I return, what things I don't over time, and just says, Keith, go to Hugo Boss.

1:11:1838 or 48 or 42 will fit you off the rack. That is something that doesn't exist online, and there's a lot of latent demand for consumers not to go to retail. The reason why I go to retail, typically, is I either need something immediately or I need to try it on. Yeah, there's also this interesting thing where ChatTPT and basically every LLM has been only pull in the sense that you have to go and prompt it. It never just sends you a push notification and says, they're experimenting with pulse. So they'll say, okay, we know that you like venture capital news and you like learning about data centers.

1:11:51I think they deprioritized that. They have deprioritized it, but I still think that there's a glimmer of something valuable there where they could proactively send you results. It's very compute intensive and I don't know if they got the form factor right, but there's clearly a glimmer of something. There's a glimmer there. The question is going to be the quality, right? Because that's magical. Yeah, it'd be totally magical, but I'm going to react to the first five they sent me and either love it or hate it and they're not going to get a second shot totally. Totally, totally. So I think that's hard to do in a beat-off.

1:12:20No, no, no. It's hard, but I think over time, the scale, like all the math and the actual value. We've seen it work with some of the Instagram ads where you're like, wow, I didn't even know I wanted that. It's really cool. People are satisfied. I think that will come. People are also more comfortable sharing data with ChatGPT than any other tech product I've ever seen. So I think my sizing and things like that, if I put that in memory, it makes it a hell of a lot easier. So help me square that because I feel like that's true. I feel like people have these incredibly personal conversations with LLMs.

1:12:50They use them for all these funny things. They're obviously seeing AI search results. And yet AI as a whole feels like the most unpopular technology in decades. Well, I think it may be a 1 % issue, too. There's a lot of people who are motivated for their own reasons to create negative feedback on AI. Well, to be clear, it's also because five years ago there was a lot of interviews that happened where they were talking about job loss and just total destruction. Well, even Sam made the mistake of talking about UBI. We need UBI. This is a mistake. We need UBI because there's going to be job loss.

1:13:26Well, first of all, there's not going to be job loss, which we were talking about, arguably. But B, highlighting that a decade before any of that happens makes no sense whatsoever. And UBI, by the way, is a terrible solution. Sure. So for all those reasons, it created more fear. And then the safety hoax people, the people who are always creating hoaxes about, it's literally a hoax. Safety is a complete hoax. This is my challenge. Why? Name a single person who believes we have an AI safety issue that's been right about any political issue for 50 years. Every single person who's talking about safety has been wrong on the environment, has been wrong on equality and all that nonsense.

1:13:58So, like, I just don't believe any of this because the people are always finding an excuse for bureaucrats to interfere with progression. I mean, I hear you. That's just like, that's kind of sad for our tech community because. Well, as you know, a lot of people in tech, though, have very sad views. I suppose. But what I mean is like Mark Zuckerberg has dealt with a lot of attacks on like social media is bad, right? But at least you got five years of people kind of liking posting Instagrams, you know? People kind of liked social media before they started critiquing it. AI, day one. Yeah, meeting with the critiques.

1:14:31Day one, immediately. Which is critical. Like, you know, there's this old line that's stuck in my brain from when Newt Gingrich was Speaker of the House. Yeah. He said, you know, if the electric light had been invented today, it would absolutely be banned. Because it would have threatened the candle making industry. The safety, you know. It actually was somewhat unsafe, actually. A lot of people died. But then we never would have allowed electricity. And think about society without electricity. Yeah, we have a fast feedback loop on fear and actually taking action. And then monetizing that fear or one way or another.

1:15:03And we saw this with nuclear power, like, to some extent. If you see an AI video that was generated and it's bad, you're like, I don't want to lose my job to this thing that I don't like. Well, we have to remember people also, there's a bell curve distribution of people's content. Let's take video. Yeah. Of all the humans, let's assume there's no technology. What fraction of human-generated video is great? Or good? Yeah. It's probably a fairly small fraction. Yeah, totally. But then you see the AI, you're like, oh, this is terrible. It's sloth. The guy that made this said, I'm going to lose my job and that I'm going to need UBI.

1:15:38Why don't we just stop all of this altogether? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a little bit like Paul Graham had this epic blog post about, you know, if someone unfortunately, like, meets someone, you know, and sexually assaults them at a grocery store like Safeway. It's not like a front page news story for The New York Times. I mean, this happens all across the country, unfortunately. God forbid, you know, someone meets someone on Instagram and it DM. Front page news story, you know, something bad, god awful happens. But it's the grocery versus the new technology. And so you have to always remember that people are going to critique the new technology differently than what the real risk in the real world is.

1:16:13That's actually probably more material. We have a couple minutes left, and we're here at NYSE. What's your IPO outlook? How are you thinking about 2026? We've got some good ones coming up for you, hopefully. We've got some ventures going out. I've heard rumors about some other funds. We are definitely not. I can assure you, we are not going to be a real... We have never had a conversation about whether we should be a public company. We're the craft business. IPO rumors swirl. IPO rumors swirl. No, absolutely not. We'll let someone else do that. Who else? But, you know, obviously, we've been involved in really good companies.

1:16:46Ramp, your sponsor, obviously, is phenomenal, can be a public company whenever they choose to be. Got Avon, Trade Republic in Europe. Not as many people are paying attention to. Great future company. There's a bunch. I'm so excited about the future. I saw there was some news that SpaceX is maybe thinking about going out next year. I don't have any inside information there. I mean, I read the same thing. I think it would be great, you know, 22 years or something. It would be a long time. And also just a lot of Elon fans have been riding with Tesla for a long time. Yeah, it's unlocked a lot of them.

1:17:17They need something new to invest in. Yeah, they need something new. Well, actually, they took X private. They'll take it back public probably at some point that you can invest in X. Take me through what you're advising those portfolio founders, without naming names, but on whether or not how they should be thinking about timing an IPO. You've obviously been along for the ride on many. What are you counseling them on when to do it? Well, I'm always a fan of go public as early as possible. Okay, interesting. Yeah, so I wrote a whole chapter in Eli Gill's book, High Growth Handbook, that explains why.

1:17:43One of the best books that industry has ever produced. It's a great book. I have two chapters, one about hiring and then one about going public. Sure, but my general view is$50 million in revenue plus predictability. You should be a public company. Wow. There's so many benefits of being public. So I'm always counseling, as soon as you possibly can, go early, not late. What about burning money? I feel like there's another bar which says, hey, if you're a public company, you shouldn't need to raise money anymore. Has that changed? Well, it depends on the company. Some businesses are profitable. Like Trade Republic wouldn't need to raise money, for example.

1:18:15Sure. We actually pay taxes already. Oh, wow. I've actually never had that happen to me. I've never been on the board of a company that's actually paying taxes. because, you know, to pay corporate taxes, you actually have to offset all of the money and profit. So like we're such a great company. Yeah, you burn through all your care forwards and you're done. Wow, that's fantastic. Well, thank you so much. Is there anything else we should talk about? No, this is super fun. We really appreciate you being with me. Why New York? Why are you here? Is it the ramp mafia? You want to make sure you pick off all that?

1:18:41Pick off all that. So we actually looked at my geographic investments. I mentioned AI is two thirds, three quarters. New York is the number one geo, has been the number one geo for me for five or six years. It's about 60 % of all my investments. Application layer stuff, financial services, you know, like Imprint, Ramp, a lot of great companies. Basis, Accounting AI, Rogo, Investment Banking AI, Trauma is here, you know, Ramp. They've got a great set of companies here. And then it's better for me to be on the East Coast for personal reasons. Yeah, of course. Well, we appreciate you taking the time to come, Darren.

1:19:13This is fantastic. Good to see you. I'm sure we'll catch up with you soon. Thanks for the invite. Have a good rest of your day. I'm going to tell you about Numeral. Compliance handled. I think I already told you about Numeral, so I'm going to tell you about Figma. Again. Think bigger, build faster. Figma helps design and development teams build great products together. And our next guest is Lynn Martin, the president of the New York Stock Exchange. While we wait, Dan Soroker's company, Limitless, has been acquired by Meta. Ooh, congratulations to him. There's a video here that we cannot play, but Meta acquires AI wearable startup, Limitless.

1:19:44We were going to talk about, I feel like there's a lot of opportunity in the AI wearable space. there's a lot of cool stuff happening. And it just feels like fertile playground. I feel like it'd be a fun time to be a hardware hacker. We talked about that transcription piece of hardware that's making$250 million out of nowhere. Very interesting companies. There's obviously cool things to do. A lot of the attention goes to the Rabbit R1, the Friend pin, the Humane AI pin. But there's cool stuff happening all over the industry. And so, it's a voice recorder. Again, voice recorder. They had a hardware device.

1:20:20Amazing. Notable that, yeah, again, Limitless, I don't think, was able to crack real growth with the hardware. But that company, Plod, has. Sure, sure, sure. But again, this is a great outcome for them. I'm sure the whole Limitless team is pumped. And let me tell you about Privy. Privy makes it easy to build on crypto rails, securely spam white-label wallets, sign transactions, and integrate on-chain infrastructure all through one simple API. What else is going on in the timeline, Jordy? Let's see here. Yeah, I mentioned this briefly in the conversation with Keith, but apparently OpenAI must turn over 20 million chat logs to Plainis.

1:20:59Oh, okay. Judge Ona Wang has ruled. Yeah. You have to send an email to a server that adds a chat GPT response in with your lawyer CC'd. That's how you maintain confidentiality. Harvey, who Keith also mentioned, raised$160 million at an$8 billion valuation. This is why Keith was talking about raising money. 2 % dilution round from A16Z. A 3X revenue this year to$150 million. They raised$300 million from Sequoia at$3 billion in January. $300 million at$5 billion from KOTU and KP in June. And then$160 at$8 from A16Z. Shout out to Spencer and the boys at KOTU. for a little markup there. And I feel like law firms have got to be pretty discerning on making this purchase decision at this point.

1:21:51Like, it's not entirely exploratory budget anymore, and it's not viral, like, something that's like, oh, it's like a flash in the pan, and then all of a sudden, like, they're not going to be able to monitor. Yeah, my question is, like, do you, like, if anybody that wants to say, like, oh, this is, like, out of control, it's like, do you think they'll be able to get to, like, a billion dollars of revenue? The legal industry is pretty big, And it's been traditionally pretty hard. And they actually, they actually, so the labor displacement thing does feel real here because I do think a law firm would say, hey, currently we have 100 associates.

1:22:22We can condense that down to about 20 and do the same amount of work by working with something like Harvey. And again, the vibe had at least with a lawyer buddy of mine had shifted drastically with Harvey a year ago. He was saying, we're like using it a little bit now. he's like it's one-shotting stuff yeah i didn't think it would he says i'm one-shotted actually by it i'm one uh well one shot your data analysis your data analysis with julius ai the ai data analyst that works for you uh this join millions who use julius to connect their data ask questions we should have gone rahul here you should have we should have told him to come here and be in the capital with us uh we'll do that soon yc has a new company called the hog oh wait really It's called the Palantir for GoToMarket.

1:23:12We were just talking about... Yeah, we were talking about swine-themed startup names. You have Pig. You have... Apparently, carry no interest. Watch their launch video twice. I evaluate software businesses for a living. Still no idea what Hog does. Lynn, good to see you. What's happening?

1:23:31Good to see you. Good to see you. I like having your bringing up the green situation. Oh, yes. Green sandwich. But it is. I mean, yesterday we were greeted by a number of folks on your team. Everyone was dressed to the nines. What is truly festive and fantastic was the tree lighting, right? Yes, it was. So this is every year. Walk us through exactly what happened. There were mascots. There were celebrities. Everything. There were singing. Oh, you've seen the tree outside. It's massive. CFOs, celebrities, mascots, charitable organizations, all celebrating the holiday season. We had about 10 ,000 people outside.

1:24:05We heard. No, it was crazy because we walked in yesterday. It felt like there was an IPO going on. It felt like an IPO. It felt like Sienna was IPO-ing. And then today, a little bit quiet. We were like, oh, okay, actually, this is a huge event. You know, Hank Azaria actually made a joke that he was IPO-ing yesterday. He was one of the celebrities. He did a spot. That was great. But, I mean, it's a great opportunity for our list of companies to get some visibility, particularly the consumer focus brands. There are about 30 different tents outlining Wall Street. It celebrates the downtown community.

1:24:36It's a great opportunity to generate business and give a bit back. What other big events like tree lighting that are kind of off of, like things that you can count on happening every year? Yeah. What's on the calendar regularly at the New York Stock Exchange? You know, we do a lot around the... Is it like the 4th of July? We do a lot, 4th of July, Memorial Day, like those types of holidays to celebrate Veterans Day, to celebrate our military. Anytime there's something to celebrate our military and people who have served this great country. It's all about giving back and highlighting what makes this country great.

1:25:13Obviously, one of the things that makes this country great is our phenomenal capital markets. Yes. And it's really a unique differentiator. Yes. There you go. Love that. But then also our military, people who selflessly protect us every single day. And then the not-for-profit, the charitable organizations who so many of our listed companies support as part of the tree lighting. We highlight the charitable organizations that our listed companies support. And this year we have 400 of our listed companies that have contributed to that program. So all throughout the season, we like to highlight that.

1:25:56People who have done good things but also are paying it forward. Yeah, and we heard that in 10 years there has never been an IPO that landed exactly on the tree lighting. No, but some of it's close. Some of it's close. Have come close. So what's the latest in December that you remember an actual IPO happening? The week before Christmas. I think Newbank. Yeah. Oh, no way. Yeah, Newbank in 2021 was a pretty late IPO. I don't remember if it was the 19th or the 20th of December. Oh, that's late. That's basically the last day that I think the e-commerce brands can, like, you can place an order and still get the product.

1:26:47That's kind of like the last day of business, basically. Exactly. The rush. Right? Right? Yeah. Yeah, what is the holiday season? When is the stock exchange dark? How much time? You know, we're not really ever dark. If I look at the calendar for the next couple of weeks, for example, we have a ton of ETFs going out, which has actually not received as much coverage as the IPOs of operating companies. Yeah, what does that process look like from even like the roadshow stage all the way to like listing? I mean, that one's a little bit different because you can just launch the ETF and then accumulate AUM.

1:27:26I know, but is there any like, I mean, but I'm assuming like you're building, well, I'm assuming you're trying to build like attention going into the process. A lot of times you're also spending the time looking at the index you're benchmarking against and backtesting the results and then going out to the people who are going to contribute the AUM and show them the performance of the ETF. and how it would have performed under stress periods and different macroeconomic events. What trends are you seeing in some of these net new ETFs? Crypto ETFs have been a big unlock for that industry. You're seeing just a continuation of the various types of ETFs.

1:28:11Equities, fixed income as well. Fixed income has also been a big unlock. lock ETFs have been probably one of the greatest financial innovations of our lifetimes my lifetime yeah in particular where it allows someone to invest in an incredibly liquid vehicle that has incredibly illiquid constituent baskets so if I think of like the fixed income markets where I came from like the muni ETFs yeah they've been able to accumulate a good amount of assets It's crypto. It's been another amulet. Some folks have been on our show talking about the future of putting graphics cards in an ETF or getting AI compute or data centers and giving folks more access to that.

1:28:55I know some of the private credit funds, we had John Zito on the show yesterday from Apollo, but some of the other funds have taken different funds and IPO'd them separately so that they get more direct access. I would expect to see more of that, but I don't know. Yeah, I mean, there's been a fair amount of folks have talked about private instruments and putting them in an ETF wrapper. I know Vlad's talked about that from Robin quite a bit, that he's looking at that as an opportunity. Yeah, I mean, there's been insatiable demand for private company stock all in Silicon Valley, but it's usually done through angel investing, never really through an ETF.

1:29:34But it seems like a structure and how you disclose information. and whatnot, make sure you're in a good basket of assets. And do you actually have a voting share in the underlying basket? There's a lot more logistics to work out in that. But in general, ETFs are going to add a layer of transparency that a lot of these illiquid assets don't have. Because they're marked to market every day. They have NAV at the end of the day. The fund has them. There's been some other experiments with trying to bring private shares into the public markets that end up trading three, four times NAV and end up being the underlying assets can be high quality.

1:30:15But if you're buying them at 4X or something like that, the actual valuation is like you're just actually lighting money on fire. 2026, everybody's super excited. We just talked to Keith. It's going to be a big year. It's going to be a big year. It's going to be a big year. The year was going really, really well. And then you had various events such as Liberation Day. In the beginning of the year, that sort of shut the window, the IPO window. But obviously it reopens. How we met you guys, here we are. And then the government shutdown temporarily closed the market as well. So a variety of our deals have now pushed into January.

1:30:54But January, it's going to be a busy January. It's going to be a really busy Q1. And now it feels like momentum because that narrative is out there and these deals are going to go early in the new year. Momentum's truly building for for the rest of 2026. But you got to remember you got midterms at the end of 26. Oh, yeah. How have midterms historically impacted just like whether or not it's kind of the windows open or close? Probably for a couple weeks before the window will be shut for a bit of time. Because people are going to be, they're not going to want to go when there's potential volatility in the market.

1:31:37Anytime you have a large group of elections or a monumental election like the election for a president, you're not going to want to go just before. Because you just don't know what's going to happen around that election period. Yep. That makes sense. Well, we just want to say thank you for welcoming us. I am so psyched to have you guys here. I mean, look at this. We love being here. It's fantastic. It's still surreal. And thank you for letting this be our home on the East Coast. Our home is your home. We literally could not have picked a better place. Your interview yesterday with Kramer. It was so much fun.

1:32:14Oh, my gosh. Off the charts. Off the charts. Well, because he tweeted in the morning. He was like, it could be fun. It could be wild. It could be wild. And we got wild. All the above. But he's just. We talked about the market. We also just talked about interviewing, building relationship with CEOs over decades. And it just laid the groundwork. I remember we watched his interview with Tim Cook 15 years ago, a decade ago. And you guys mentioned that. And watch how he built that relationship. Really remarkable work. And a lot of it happened in this building. A lot of it happened right down there.

1:32:46A lot of it. Right down there. Well, we're looking forward to eventually joining him on his show. And I just hope we can bring the same level of energy that he has. You can bring your gong and your panel alongside his panel. And I can't wait to see who's louder on that deck. We got to hit the gong for the partnership. The gong hit for the partnership. I will hold this up. This is for you. The official gong hitting. Go. There we go. Now that's a gong. That's a gong. That's a gong. We're going to leave these here for you, so if you're ever, you need a boost of energy. Yeah, yeah. Totally do. Coffee.

1:33:27Thank you so much. Thank you so much. We appreciate you. We will be back soon. We are going to come back. Can't wait for you. Cognition. Cognition. The team behind the AI software engineer, Devin. Crush your backlog with your personal AI engineering team. And I'm also going to tell you about Gemini 3 Pro, Google's most intelligent model yet. state-of-the-art reasoning next level vibe coding and deep multimodal integrations um what else is in the timeline we of course have emily sunberg from feed me uh joining in just a second we're very excited to have her on the show uh but is there anything else in the timeline that we should run through before we bring in emily uh chrome hearts chrome hearts acquired acquired uh acquired one of my favorite hotels wait the surf riding the surf rider oh they did so that i think it was the family the starks the the owners yeah we've been there dylan dylan will stay there sometimes when he's in la yeah uh they acquired uh yeah one of my favorite hotels i used to stay there a lot and then i moved like right near it and so now i don't have any reason to uh to stay there unfortunately but uh interesting pickup it's an iconic hotel they paid more than 1.8 million per room uh which puts it among southern california's priciest hotel deals in years uh it's just 20 rooms uh and so uh yeah i don't i don't uh i i was it had been owned by i know the guy who created the hotel it was basically an impossible task to like redevelop this like basically uh it was an old motel that was kind of crumbling he redeveloped it made it beautiful uh many people said it couldn't be done just because of the coastal commission and just how hard it is to like uh do any type of like development work in malibu he did it sold it to private equity i think this is it trading hands again uh but i'm excited to see what they do with it they've been um they have they've just been in malibu for so long and have a great presence there so it's a beautiful hotel i love it um and it's fun that it's krill hearts now uh shout out we move on let me tell you about fall the general media app platform for developers developing fine-tuned models with serverless gpus and on-demand clusters uh shout out to jim o'shaughnessy he says when i say i love bach i really mean it he listened to 64 000 minutes of bach last year which puts him in the 0.01 percent of global fan he's just on repeat the repeat it's like no mozart i don't even drift away i'm never he never riding with bach 24 7 how many minutes are in a year can You actually looked that up?

1:36:0360 times 24 times 365. 60 times 24 times 365. He was listening. Okay, okay. So there's 525 ,000 minutes in a year, I think, if I got that right. Yep. And so he was listening for 60 ,000 minutes. 60 ,000 minutes. So more than 10 % of his time. So that's more than two hours every day. Hey, this guy's listening to just Bach. He's an absolute dog. This is the craziest thing. What happened? I mean, I feel I didn't even, I think I was like top 2 % fan on my most played artist or something like that. I actually haven't looked through my Spotify. He's the.001%. This is hilarious. Okay. Yeah, we're good.

1:36:47Well, let's bring in Emily Sundberg and let's also tell you about GetBezil.com. Shop over 26 ,500 luxury. Great to see you. Fully authenticated. Hi. Welcome. Hello. Hi. Good to see you. Good to see you. I'm not saying welcome. I'm in New York. Yeah. Good to have you here. How's it going? It's going great. Last night we were at an event and the interviewer was asking us a bunch of questions about the business and stuff. But one of the questions that it didn't phase me at the time, but then I talked about it with someone later. And I'll give you the question and I want to see how you interpret it.

1:37:16It was, if you are on a desert island, you're stranded on a desert island, what are three Twitter accounts that you would follow? Oh. Maybe do that for subsec. Yeah. Three Substack accounts. You can do anything. I wound up listing a Substack as well. It was just technology analysts. John's just on a desert island just, like, reading Ben Thompson and Semi-Nelson. I think I would need New York Times for Twitter. Need Joe Weisenthal. Yeah, let's go. You definitely need Joe Weisenthal. Need him. And then a third, probably, like, a Frank O 'Hara bot or something. That just, like, automatically gives me some poetry.

1:37:56So you answered the question exactly how I answered the question. And then someone came up to me after and was like, no, like if you're stranded, you need to be hot. You need to be following like alert services or like the Coast Guard or like. Oh, right. You know, like a pilot, like someone with a plane. But also pirate. Don't stop analyzing technology. You're just waving. You're waving the Joe Weisenthal post. What is Joe Weisenthal going to do to get you off that? Joe would figure it out. He's not going to help you. He would know that I was missing, though, and have like tasks. OK, OK. And you want to know that he's coming for you.

1:38:28Yeah. Yeah, he would give me the update. Speaking of Joe Weisenthal, he recently made an appearance on your new podcast. He did. Expense account. Right. And he had a take that I thought crossed journalistic lines. I thought he... Let's hear it. He said that Malaysia has the best food in the world. Have you been? No. So how would you know? Because I'm from America, and I know America has the best food in the world. I went to a birthday party at a Malaysian bar last night. Okay, was it the best food? It was great. Is Malaysian food actually that good? What is Malaysian food? It's like spicy, green.

1:39:01It's, uh, do you like spice? Yeah, yeah, I like spice. I'm just saying that, like, Malaysia has one type of food. It's delicious. You should call it. And beef saute. A lot of beef. I love beef. I love beef saute. And then, like, sauces and greens. But in America, we have pizza. We have McDonald's. We have the Doritos Locos Taco. Do you have pizza in L.A.? No, but in New York, which is, again, in America, he would say on a country-by-country basis, we have Las Vegas. But if you're in New York, you can make swings like that. We have San Francisco. We have French laundry. We have all sorts of restaurants.

1:39:30Have you guys had any great dinners while you've been here? We had a pretty good dinner last night. Where did we go to the Hock? We went to a steakhouse. It was delicious. Which one? I don't know. Hock something? Oh, yeah, yeah. But I just think that the variety that you get, like, I will give Joe Weisenthal, I've never been, but let's give him, Malaysia is an A+. It's an A+. Yeah. It's like, well, then America has got to be B-plus in steak and B-plus in French and B-plus and sushi and B plus and, you know, Italian and all the different genres of cuisines. Malaysia is awesome. And you add all that.

1:40:02Okay, okay, you're defending your guests. But I think what he was really probably saying was like a great, like probably one or two specific great Malaysian places in New York. Because he has his spots. No, no, he was talking about going to Malaysia physically and saying that being in Malaysia, that's the best food in the world. We went to Hawksmoor. We went to Hawksmoor. It was good. I've heard of it. It was good. You're not a... I mean, I haven't been yet, but I'll make a trip. Okay. Well, how is Expense Account going as a new podcast? Are you excited about it? It's great. It's a blast. You know, it started, Jason, my restaurant columnist, he started writing a column for me a little bit over a year ago called Expense Account.

1:40:41And it's sort of about, like, business guy restaurants, like places where somebody slams the card down. Yes. And it was a great column. And I was reading one of them. He joked about having a podcast. I called him and I was like, are you making a show with someone else? And he said he wasn't. But then I said, do you want a show? And we made it in Substack and Silver Oak Wines sponsored season one. That's a great sponsor. They're great. That's amazing. Substack, Silver Oak. Great Substack sponsored. They're the presenting sponsor of season one. Very cool. Yeah. Love Substack. Yeah, what I liked about it was the fact that I am not really a foodie, as you can tell from my...

1:41:23You guys say that, but you've been having more culinary conversations. Yes, but my example of good food in America was the Doritos Locos Taco. Great. Or Baja Blast. It's a fantastic drink. I like a Baja Blast. I like a Diet Coke. I like a Red Bull. Same. We're on the same page. So I was worried that I was going to open up the RSS feed and see a bunch of names that I didn't recognize. And when I saw Joe Weisenthal, I was like, I'm in. And he has great takes on food. Yes, and it was great because... He's one of New York's best food reporters. I'm used to him in one context, talking about the markets, about what's happening with the latest news in the Fed.

1:41:56Talking to founders, talking to entrepreneurs, CEOs. It was really cool to see just a different side of him. So I think if you can keep doing that, I'm hooked. That's the idea. Yes, yes. And I think a lot of people will jump. And honestly, a lot of people should be trying to get on the show because it shows them a different side of them. And I don't know. It just seems like it's a best meet for success. I love it. What about the West Coast expansion? I need your advice here. So I found that Substack is very limited analytics. They're great for other reasons, but in terms of the demographics of my readers, it's limited.

1:42:30But I do know that about 20 % of my readers live in California. Yeah. It feels like a loss to not—it feels like a miss to not do some sort of California product. when I was there on my last trip. Everybody was saying, like, we want something. Like, we read Feed Me religiously, but we want something in California. So I decided next year I'm just going to go out there more, like, there as a state. Sure. And I think it will probably start as, like, a monthly letter. But all of these readers of mine, they, like, have tips for me. They have stories they want to tell. I'm not sure exactly how I'm going to focus it.

1:43:08But I was putting together like a small newsroom or thinking about people to help me with it. And then I realized I can just go and do it. I think that's what people want. Yeah, for sure. So I'm going to San Francisco at the end of January. Great. I asked my Twitter followers where to stay. We need a prediction market on how long you're going to actually stay in that set. Right now it's three nights. Okay. You're making it sound like it was going to be like three weeks. I'm going to be all the ground. I mean, maybe I'll never leave. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're going in January, not for January. In January.

1:43:39My husband would not want me to go for that long. I don't think he would miss me. And my readers would miss me in New York. Of course, of course. But, yeah, I'm not sure where to start, but my Twitter community of my reply people in SF have been very welcoming and generous, and have invited me to a few dinner parties and bars. You'll probably leave with a scout fund. I'm looking for like some hidden doors sure sure so I mean that sounds like sort of restaurant focused but other cultural touch points all kinds of establishments have doors okay go to Sand Hill Road and just start trying doors like against the side of some of the others I think the Feed Me report on the Rosewood bar on a Thursday night would really go that would go great definitely go on Thursday I'll be there on Thursday I'll do that on a Thursday night but there's a lot that I don't understand I mean the only other time I went to SF was for WWDC thank you Apple for bringing me earlier this year got a selfie with Tim Cook yeah but Cupertino's a very different environment than San Francisco I know you probably spent a few nights in a neighborhood called what's the neighborhood that you don't that not everyone always likes to stay the Tenderloin yeah oh yeah I live there that's rough really yeah we walk through there at night after dinner a while back.

1:45:04The Twitter headquarters for a while were there. It wasn't fine when we were walking through. I had John as kind of like security. Any plans to take a trip to the Hamptons of San Francisco? Which is? Tahoe. Oh, Tahoe. I would say Tahoe, right? Or maybe Martha's Vineyard. What's the Martha's Vineyard of San Francisco? I don't know. I said Marin. Marin. Yeah, wine country. But I think Tahoe is more of the Hamptons. Because when I think of the Hamptons of, I think like two hours, three hours, four hours. Is that skiing? Yeah, you can ski, you can boat, you can do a bunch of different things. Do you guys ski?

1:45:38Occasionally. I'm not super into it, but it's fine. Yeah, I'll go to that. And we're into the track right now. We're very much in a race car phase, less of the skiing phase. The most recent experience of being on the track just completely reset my expectations for what's possible with recreational sports. Find me in thermal, not Jackson Hole. You're getting ad deal ideas also from F1. Oh, yes. Always. Love F1. Always. It's the best. Back to Substack. Yeah. Jack Conte at Patreon is trying to poach Substack writers. Yes. What do you think he's thinking? What do you think he needs to do? How do you think about the positioning of Substack versus Patreon?

1:46:20Just like from a vibe and cultural perspective maybe first, like how do you interpret like a Substack creator versus, hi, I'm a Patreon creator? Yeah, I think the medium is, like, you think Patreon, you think podcast. I think one-on-one model, the Lensphere model. Yeah, yeah. Otherworld, you know my favorite podcast, Otherworld? Jack. Jack. Yeah, he was originally. Tamagotchi, Versace, whatever. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, he rocks. I think if they keep him, that's a good first step. He was with Vyla Wardell on that show. Yeah, yeah. I love Otherworld. It's amazing. I've never listened to a podcast. The paranormal?

1:47:00Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like little... No, no, no, no. I never... I've never watched a full horror movie. Yeah, you don't have a ghost story. I'm not into any of that stuff. You're not into that. He just turns into a ghost. He's too afraid. You're missing out. It's a world of wonder and history. Yeah, yeah, I'm a scaredy guy. I'm a scaredy guy. Okay, I think if they keep them, you know, they keep some of the big hitters, like Red Scare or whatever. Yeah. But I don't think... I think what both of these platforms are doing wrong is when they try to do, like, the sports team trade thing. and I was feeling a bit of FOMO for a while why not go try to get new people on your platform incubate if you're Patreon don't go poach from Substack go find someone who's working in legacy media way underpaid relative to the value they create have them come over and do their new thing and that was the lineage of some of the early Substack deals was we'll help you get set up we'll give you enough money that you can pay for healthcare pay for the first thing, and then get your business up and ready.

1:47:59Right. I was feeling a lot of FOMO that I wasn't getting the email from the Patreon team saying, come over here, it'll be a big check. And then I got one the other day, and it had the term. I haven't responded yet. Poached. Poached. Poached. Media trading card. Attempted poaching happening. You're way too loyal. I genuinely think you're, I feel like your audience would have a mutiny. They would be like. It wouldn't work. It wouldn't work. I think you're substat coded. That's the thing. I think you're a Substack writer. But also when you see certain terms, like we're rolling out new features that we want to tell you.

1:48:35Roll is like a slow thing. It's not like we're launching this. And that, the email kind of just fuzzed out after that. And then he followed up. I won't out who emailed me. This is amazing. Yeah. I love it. But I think, like, it's okay that we're Substack to be a newsletter platform. It's okay for Patreon to be a podcast platform. And I'm very curious to see what an email CMS on Patreon even looks like. Do you have Netflix? Do I have Netflix? Yeah. Sure do. Are you like, because I pay for it, but I'm not logged into my phone. Like, I'm not like a regular watcher. Oh. Yeah. Have you ever watched it on the phone?

1:49:14Like watching on the plane? Yeah, on the plane. No. I won't do that. I won't do that. Apple TV, maybe. Okay. There you go. So, but do you think you'd ever watch a podcast on Netflix? You've seen that they're doing this? they're starting to buy podcasts and put them on Netflix? More like distribute them. Distribute them. They got the ringer. I would not, but these kids are really watching a lot of podcasts. They're into podcasts on TVs, on the wall. Wherever they can get them. Throw it on for a couple hours. I just messed up my mic. No, I think you're right. Wall podcasts. Yeah, they're all watching podcasts.

1:49:45People are watching expense account as much as listening to it. And do you think they're also watching it on smart TVs, basically? Like they throw it on on the TV the way they might throw on, you know, a reality TV show or a movie or the news. With all the, like, working from home. Okay. It's the close.

1:50:05Another week. People are welcome to know here. They're closing the stock exchange. Who is it? It's Wells Fargo. We got one tower still up here, guys. We got one tower. Shout out to Wells Fargo. We're holding on. We're holding on to one color. Yeah, we got one feud left over there. That one. Yeah, there we go. Well, for me, that's the management. They cut to the claws. We're here, Lars, at the New York Static Strait. Let's give it up for Wells Fargo. Yes, yes, yes. Wow, she is going for it. That was great. Maybe future Feed Me sponsor there. Who knows? Who knows? Anyway, you were saying people watching Netflix shows at Ears.

1:50:44I think more and more people are sort of using their TVs as like that always on thing in the office, but in their house. So it's like, you know, like the Harry Potter moving picture frame. It's just like the TV is on, the podcast is on while they're doing whatever else they're doing. Holiday gifting. Yes. Our gift, our, do gift guides matter in a world where you can tell the LLM, describe the person and say, generate a gift guide at, you know, every possible price point all the way through. Did you guys see the gift guide that I wrote about that Evercore sent out to everyone? It's like what to buy the, I think last year the subject.

1:51:21You wrote it for Evercore? Somebody at Evercore sends it to the whole team. Because I feel like Evercore, that's a premier product. It's great. I'll forward it to you guys. I looked up the person who makes it. They've been doing it for many years. Last year it was like what to buy the women in your life. And this year they changed the subject to what to buy the people in your life. But it's like luxury items. This looks amazing. Lists, men. Love it. Yeah. So I like the idea of sort of like this word of mouth kind of gift guide if it becomes a little bit more secret. Sure. Substack has become a storm of gift guides this time of year.

1:51:56And it's a lot of clothes. I didn't realize that that's what people want so much. Are you guys going to make a gift guide? Yeah, but we're going to restrict no clothes, more hardware, more like what track car to buy. Are you going to get some affiliates? What plane to buy. No, no, no. We don't. No shop line. Love of the game. Love of the game. Oh, yeah, Shopmai. We've got to have the Shopmai. Is Dostry on Shopmai? Yeah. We should get that on. They have a lot on there now. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, if they get Ferrari Challenge cars on there. Shopmai. That would be our... Word of the year. Word of the year?

1:52:28Phoebe needs a word of the year. Every publication has a word of the year. The Economist has a word of the year. Do you? The Economist's word of the year. We do. We haven't disclosed it yet. The Economist's word of the year is slop. Right. I saw that. And that feels like appropriate, but also potentially could have been last year's word of the year. We were talking about slop as a term that was sort of, you know, I think you called the top on slop in February. Yeah. So it really was an important word. It became a word of the year. I think the economists did a good job picking that. And then Oxford had rage bait.

1:52:59Oh, yeah, they did. Rage bait. That's two words. I know, I know. For the term. Yeah, yeah, yeah. One word put together, I guess. I want to say our word so much but we need to introduce it in the right way Have you been hearing everybody saying flow state now? That's like very hot over the last week That's like such an old I feel like that's like a 2018 era Slop is negative, rage state's negative, flow state's positive Yeah, we're moving I remember when I was like in college, when I was in college listening to Tim Ferriss, who's always trying to get in flow state Yeah, I was going to say like Wiz Khalifa.

1:53:37Okay. Ploestein's good. Yeah. Well, yeah, I would encourage you to drop Feed Me's Word of the Year. Okay. I think you should think about it. I've been thinking of doing some sort of list at the end of the year. Like, I was going to do a Men of the Year thing after GQ did theirs and left you off. Oh, yeah. Crazy. Well, didn't they give it to Sydney Sweeney instead? Yes. She was at the event. It's funny. Did you get the invite? There was another... No, we didn't even get the invite. No, there was another... You guys would be a mind man of the year party. Thank you. Thank you. If I would make the list.

1:54:14What do you have? Are you having a holiday party? I mean, I... No, we've really, like, dropped the ball on events, like, since the event we did. Yeah, without your help, it's impossible. You knew with our event. You were like, we're doing an event. We picked it, like, at rough time and then did nothing else until the day of. but you pulled it off. It was fabulous. Did you guys ever go into any 2016 awesome SF world holiday parties? I feel like the budgets have kind of vanished and things have changed. Vanished? What do you mean? Holiday parties don't really feel the same. Wait, how so? Maybe I'm talking about the media ones.

1:54:55Oh, okay. Okay, yeah, because that does make sense. Because in tech, there's more money than ever. Yeah, so the next two weeks, basically the holiday parties have begun. Tech has obviously taken the, they saw the media companies with their big holiday parties, and they said, that's actually our money, we're going to take that. Right. And now, but I was wondering how you would handle room blocks for, as like Feed Me, if you were going to put on a big event, how would you handle room blocks? Because there's been a big kind of more. Well, you have a very big team. Yes. So you're saying how do we transport the team if something was happening in New York?

1:55:36Yeah. Well, we travel light. We travel light. There was just four of us. There was four of us. Yeah. I mean, do people, there's like two questions here. One, how do you, how does, who has to put up that many people in a different city? Like if a media company is doing, if they're doing, I'm somewhat doing a bit. I think you guys need to open a New York office. We should. Well, this is our New York office. We're partnering with the New York Stock Exchange now. But I'm just saying, if you were doing an event in New York and you were inviting people and you were like, I'm going to pay for your accommodation because you're speaking at my event, what hotel would you choose?

1:56:11We need a high-low strategy. Yeah, a high-low strategy. What we need is a sleeping bag on the floor of this booth. When we come to New York, we crash in the booth and we're like, we are grinding harder than anyone in Manhattan. Or like a Vice Warehouse strategy. That'd be good, too. Do you guys know the media company in D.C., Punchbowl? Like, they own a brown seal. Yeah, that's cool. Their office is there. That's awesome. And I'm sure someone has slept there before. That's very cool. But you might need to, you know, check out the real estate. Where would Punchbowl go on my media map, which was 100 % accurate?

1:56:43I mentioned that that day and I didn't like the map, and I think I got it. We still are getting notes from people saying, like, you didn't put me on. We did this Axios event last night. People thought that was like the Magna Carta. It was like. It was thrown together. It was so crazy. It was so crazy. It was so crazy because Tyler put it together. We, like, glanced at it. We're like, oh, it looks pretty funny. And then we're like, all right, we'll have Emily basically be the heat shield and put this out to the world. Yeah, that was great. And then people tried to make their own, and it didn't hit the same, obviously.

1:57:13Well, yeah, I mean, I think that these formats, when they hit, they hit really well, and they're very shareable. Yeah. I would say that stuff can get overdone, but I would be excited to read the Feed Me holiday gift guide. Also, just the recap of the top ten moments from the year. Pieces that I might not have read or snippets that I missed. Things like that. Like the scoops that you've gotten or interviews, things you learned. I have a question for you guys. Predictions for next year. All of this stuff. Like the formats are, they're played out, but they work still. They work, and it's just a good way to enjoy information.

1:57:47I like seeing a market on a map. Yes. I like seeing a list of top things, whether it's people or companies. Like, people like ranking lists and stuff. Yeah, it's very easy to digest. Yeah, you need a little bit of heat shield, but, you know, that's good. Can I ask you guys a good question? Please, yeah, yeah. I was at DealBook this year, and Andrew interviewed Mr. Beast. Yeah. And he was playing the videos that he made 10 years ago with, like, camcorders, like, early stuff. That video that went viral this week, me and 10 years or something. Yeah. And I'm curious, are you guys? I got like a pang of regret that I'm not capturing more like how I built this style stuff.

1:58:20Are you guys capturing that as well? Like, are you guys getting behind-the-scenes stuff? Yeah, we have a little bit of behind-the-scenes stuff. We've seen it. The thing is, we put our entire studio on the stream. Right. And so, like, it's in some ways, like, you get a behind-the-scenes look every episode. More like back in the car on the way home, like. Ben gets some of that stuff. Ben brought a camcorder. We're not crazy about it because, like, you could tell, like, if you were trying to just make the documentary about, We actually thought it would be hilarious to make a two-hour documentary about TPN and release it in one year.

1:58:55Because you could just put a documentary on Amazon Prime if you want. Totally, yeah. But you could tell the story through the show pretty effectively. And we have ISOs for everything. And we often have meta conversations like this one about the show on the show. And so right here we're talking about the decision to do behind the scenes. There aren't that many discussions that we're like, oh, we should have captured that off camera. Maybe there's a little bit more where we should be doing stuff. I think that the lower hanging fruit for us is just like. I think you should become one of those live streamers that just spends all day long walking around and being like, yo, no, no.

1:59:35All around New York, you just have somebody following you with a camera. You're just doing stories, scooping. I could. I mean, that like photo in the New York Times where I'm in the back of the car is kind of that vibe. yeah yeah yeah maybe maybe we should do more uh behind the scenes shots but it's just hard to figure out like how would we productize that because it's a lot of effort i think it's more for the time capsule yeah but i think for us like think about the time capsule is 30 years from now you'll be able to do a second from every single show forever and you'll be able to see those and memory yeah there are a lot of stuff it's not exactly like building silently like it's very much in public.

2:00:11Building very publicly. Very excited. Massive year for you. Congratulations. Thank you so much for coming on the show. You're going to come to New York more? Yes. There's going to be a lot of IPOs next year. This New York Stock Exchange partnership is all about. Look, we've got Adam over here. He's suited up. Thank you so much for joining. Thank you for having me. This was so fun. I'll see you guys soon. Bye, guys. While she hops off, let me tell you about Wander.com. Spoke a wander with inspiring views, hotel-grade amenities, dreamy beds, top-tier cleaning, and 24-7 concierge service. And I'm also going to tell you about 8sleep.com.

2:00:47Exceptional sleep without exception. Fall asleep faster, sleep deeper, and wake up energized. What are you laughing at? What do you got on the timeline? Can't share that one. But... Varda is flying its fourth mission, Home to Earth. That's exciting. Varda has been on an absolute tear. Well, Brewery is sharing a photo of the Siya Sun Kuniba Go W-4. Somebody was joking about how Varda names their missions W-The-Number. They're now on four. Someone was making the joke that eventually it's going to start sounding like tax forms, like W-9, 1099. I mean, that would be a funny bit. Memorable. Does the W stay for Winnebago?

2:01:33I know that they have this whole Breaking Bad theme internally that they like to joke about, but I don't know. TJ Parker's quoting Granola. Granola did Crunch, which is a great name for their version of rap. Oh, that is good. TJ Parker says, you're 2025. Deposed. What did you mean by this? That actually, I mean, a rap style product for all of your meeting notes is extremely interesting. for the corporate athlete out there. Really, really. If you're a corporate athlete and you put up historic numbers in granola, please send us your crotch. I love how Keith is like, I did 3 ,200 hours in a month.

2:02:14In one month? It's just like, you can't possibly work 3 ,000 hours in a month. There are 3 ,000 hours in a month. Because I know a full work year is 2 ,000 hours. And if you're working 80 hours a week, that's 4 ,000 hours. uh it's uh yeah that's andrew reed says when your vendor sends out their forward deployed engineers they're leaving their flank exposed to a pincer movement by your calvary it's ridiculous the metaphors i love it let me tell you about adquick.com out of home advertising made easy and measurable plan buy measure out of home with precision with adquick.com onto announced a 15 million Series A yesterday led by Excel and launched Prism, a gentic reporting that can explain your finances.

2:03:01We got Adam Faze in the New York Stock Exchange. Wow, wow, wow. Can we get a suit check real quick? You look fantastic. You look great. Thank you so much. Are you a tailoring guy? You get it off the rack? You buy a suit, then you get it tailored. I'm not at the level that you can get a custom suit. We're getting there. Well, you had some thoughts on the timeline. I did. About the news breakdown. What happened today? How did you find out about it? I found out from someone. I'd been in favor of this merger from the day it was announced. So I think when there was conversations around who might be the new owner of Warner Brothers, Netflix for me was always the best option.

2:03:47And so I was having dinner with a friend two nights ago, and I was saying this. And the next day, last night, he texted me. He's like, it happened. I was like, wait, what? And I was shocked. I really did actually think this was possible. But I think I'm one of the few people in Hollywood that actually think this is good for me. Okay. Why? Why? You say in Hollywood, but you're here in New York. You know what? Hollywood is kind of everywhere you are. Hollywood is a state of mind. It's a state of mind. Hollywood is a state of mind. Okay. So, yeah. Why is it good? Why is it good? I think everyone is still stuck in 2015 and thinks that we are in a battle with Netflix.

2:04:15Okay. The reality is we're in a battle for attention with Netta, Google, TikTok, the AI companies. And I think whatever's best for this IP is what's best for Hollywood. And we as content creators, IP owners. I think it's people that love our industry. I think the IP that Warner Brothers owns is so rich. At the end of the day, Netflix has the most powerful distribution arm in entertainment. And so when you look at the force of a K-pop Demon Hunters, for instance, which is arguably the biggest movie of the year, you think that Warner Brothers is the second most important animated IP library, second edition.

2:04:43This is Looney Tunes. We're talking Hanna-Barbera. We're talking Rick and Morty. These are titles that are gathering dust on platforms. And it would gather dust on Paramount Plus as well. And Netflix now has the IP to match the distribution that they already have. Why do you, you don't think Paramount would be able to put it to use? Not to the power of Netflix. And I think at the end of the day, Netflix has wanted a licensing business for a very long time. But I think what they figured out is that IP is really hard to make. I think after 10 years, there's like three titles you can actually say are IP.

2:05:12Stranger Things, Squid Game, and I think you can say Teemo Hunters. But like they spent$15 billion to do that. It really is remarkable because I feel like Netflix, I feel a very positive association with Netflix. I've always had a good time with it. I've always enjoyed it. But when I actually look through, I can name 10 HBO shows that I love and revere as fine art relative to, I've had some good times on Netflix, but it's not like, oh, you're not watching, you've never seen The Sopranos? Exactly. You're not watching Game of Thrones? Exactly. It's not the FOMO TV. No. And I think at the end of the day, we're matching now the most powerful audience in streaming with the greatest library on Earth.

2:05:50So I think, like, in revenue alone... Wait, greatest library on Earth? Hey, I really do think Warner Brothers has the greatest library. When you include HBO as well. Okay, sure. I mean, there's some good stuff, yeah. And I do think when you think about the licensing revenue, they're going to start making for merchandising. I mean, we're talking Netflix now owning Harry Potter. The merchandising on that alone is the reason why this is the best deal. Okay, okay. Yeah. You're not worried about the debt. You're not worried that everybody that subscribes to HBO Max is already probably paying Netflix.

2:06:17And there's just so. Look, but I don't mean it'll be cheaper for all of us, right? I mean, I think you're going to get two for a little bit more expensive. Well, you say that a little bit more expensive, but then you can just keep bringing it up, bringing it up, bringing it up. I mean, I've always been, like, Netflix has felt like such a good value proposition for so long. I've always been interested to see how people will churn if there's not, like, a hot show. Totally. on Netflix at that exact moment that they're engaged with because there's just so much content. Help me wrestle with this. There was someone on the timeline who was saying, like, I cannot imagine another place where Warner Brothers would land that would create more of a monopoly.

2:07:00And they were saying they're going to face antitrust concerns. Yeah, so Jason Kalar, who is a founding CEO of Hulu. That's right. Warner Media CEO, he says, if I was tasked with doing so, I could not think of a more effective way to reduce competition in Hollywood. Reduce competition is particularly an antitrust phrase. Right. But I was saying, like, what about selling it to Disney? What about selling it to Paramount? At the end of the day, there'd be a lot worse consolidation with a Paramount and Warner Brothers combined merger and a lot more lost jobs. Wait, wait, wait. Okay, so explain that angle.

2:07:32Because I was talking about Disney, and it just seems crazy to put Superman next to Spider-Man. I think at the end of the day, as much as people usually like to say that they'd like to keep the teams at both studios, at the end of the day, if Paramount and Warner Brothers were to merge, they'd have the same film studio. Oh, sure, sure, sure. And so I think what we're really talking about here is the consolidation for the survival of a 100-year-old industry. That's going to continue to happen. But again, we are in a war for attention with the digital platforms that are free to watch, which is YouTube, which is Instagram, which is TikTok.

2:08:00So I think that at the end of the day, we are trying to keep alive an industry that is not thriving, but still is a very powerful industry. I think that this puts it in a much better direction going forward. Yeah, what about actual physical theaters? It seemed like Netflix was trying to get ahead of some narrative that, you know, movies that you love with the next Harry Potter maybe, whatever that is, or the next Superman movie. Well, the next Harry Potter, it is about to be an HBO TV show. That's been in development. Okay, sure, sure. So it is going out of theater. But you understand that. Well, you say that, but it still feels like this deal has a long way to go.

2:08:33Has a long way to go. And it still feels like there's a number of different scenarios. By the way, I think most likely this has just held up for a few years. So I think that's probably more likely the option. But I do think we're probably going to look a little similar to an AT &T Time Warner situation. Sure. But on the idea of Netflix choosing to say, hey, yep, obviously the next great movie we have, we could just put it on Netflix, maybe get a couple more subs. We are going to consciously make an effort to put it into theaters. Do you think that's lip service? Do you like that plan? Do you think, like, how are you feeling about the theater business and where it goes from here?

2:09:09Do you see Netflix putting a pop-up that's like, hey, this isn't movies now, but if you pay$100, you can watch it today? That, no. But I will say, I think this year we've seen Netflix kind of go back on things they've said. I mean, they put K-pop Demon Hunters in theaters and made$19 million in one weekend. So I do think they understand the force is you can make additional. There's something about a musical in the theater, too, because everyone's seeing it, especially with kids. Yeah, and you're seeing it with a shared audience. Comedy too, you laugh. But I do think that at the end of the day, Warner Brothers has to continue having their releases come out in theaters if they're going to want to still make movies with people like Paul Thomas Anderson.

2:09:41And so I think what you will more likely see is the window being shortened. But I do think that they will have to keep maintaining this sort of theatrical exhibition release. Yeah, yeah, that's fascinating. I wonder where it goes. There's been a trend that I've been a fan of where the movie theaters, at least in my town, have been reducing the number of seats but then increasing the amenities and upsells. and they'll try and sell you a whole dinner and drinks, and you get out of there and you spend$200. But I don't get to go to the movies that much, so it's like a fantastic experience for me. So you like the eating in the theater?

2:10:11I love the iPick. Really? I love that. I like the iPick. I don't like the eating in it. I like the, like, luxury seat for sure. No, no, no. You bring a bottle of wine over. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You bring a steak. How is the wine? Is it good wine? I can't tell, but it doesn't matter. It's like Josh. Yeah. Josh. No, no. Sometimes the wine's fine. I don't know. But I think they should go all the way. French laundry, put a movie theater in. Yeah. I mean, look, at the end of the day, I think you look at something that the Lincoln Center I'm asked, which is usually sold out for weeks on end. It's almost impossible to get a seat when you have a one battle after another or a DC movie or something premiering there.

2:10:40And so I think the trend is going to, you will only go to the theater to see an experience. Is it sold out during the day or just in the first place? It sold out like 10 a.m. No way. I mean, I actually tried to go see, I finally saw one battle after another, like weeks after it had come out. Yeah. And I had the shittiest seats on earth because I couldn't find seats at any other given showtime. But I do think the trend's going to be the only reason you will go to a theater is to have an experience you cannot have at home. So if that's the ultra-luxury, sort of beautiful screening room that you have a steak dinner at, great.

2:11:06If that's the biggest screen in North America, then that's also amazing, too. And I think a lot of this is sort of repeating what the movie experience was 100 years ago. We used to build, like, palaces to watch movies. And it went to the multiplex in the mall, which really does mirror probably a worse version of what you could watch on Netflix at home. And so I'm in support of kind of going back to that original experience and making it something that's just like spectacular as a way of getting people back in those seats. What other media stories are you tracking? I mean, this is the biggest one of the week.

2:11:37This is history. This is like actual history. And I do. I am sensitive to that fact. I think there's a lot of people in Hollywood that are scared about sort of what is next for our industry. We had a very long strike that then came to an industry that was sort of smaller than it was at the beginning of it. But at the end of the day, I do think that this is an exciting story. And I also think that it's going to be, as someone who's a fan of Looney Tunes, for instance, I would rather a newer version of Looney Tunes be on these platforms than having kids watch YouTube kids' AI stuff. Favorite Looney Tunes character?

2:12:09That's a great question. Wile E. Coyote. The influx of just pure AI content now to YouTube is actually crazy, specifically in the video essay kind of documentary space where they're just like, hey, like I'm going to just generate a deep research report. Yeah. Use 11 labs to like basically create an audio track and then just put pictures and some videos over it is actually crazy. I've only been I like some of the history content on there and I'll just like search for a topic. and if I don't know the channels yet, I don't know until I'm three minutes in the video and the video says, this move wasn't just this, it was that.

2:12:49And I'm like... Gotcha. I will say YouTube Kids is one of the scarier things I think we have in culture because you might think your kid is safe because they're watching a Miss Rachel video. It's very cute and innocent, but the recommended feed, I don't know if you've ever spent time with YouTube Kids, it's terrifying. It's crazy. It's like AI slop coming from Russia. They're not going to swear and there won't be nudity or adult content, but it's weird. It's weird and it is like weirdly sensual at times. And I think that like, I don't know when we decided that these tech companies could be the babysitter for your child, but I imagine that we're going to sort of reverse those trends.

2:13:21I completely agree. And I think the meme is already taking hold. Like the whole iPad kids meme is definitely something where parents are now proud to be like, oh yeah, my kid doesn't have an iPad. And it's like, if it becomes a status symbol, then all of a sudden everyone does it. And hopefully the meta. What about social media being banned? There's something in Australia. I'm in favor of this. I think under 16, they're banning social media in Australia, which I think is a great thing. I really do think we're nearing peak sort of consumption. Here's the issue with that. Kids are still going to have devices.

2:13:51They're going to use various services. They'll use new networks that have less control. I think kids are still going to be social on the Internet. And if you ban the platforms that actually invest billions of dollars a year, you're going to get them on these like places like dark corners of the Internet that don't have any scrutiny, that don't have any whatever you want to call that safety teams, whether you're in favor of them or not. I just think this is you cannot ban humans being social. They will always find a way. They will always find a way. But I mean, we had a very similar conversation around cigarettes.

2:14:23Right. And like we know that the sort of laws we put around cigarettes had safe lies. the count outs elemental lies and so i do think that like regardless of what the solution but the comp would be like it's you ban cigarettes which is your physical item that you need that needs a supply chain you need it it's hard to like make a cigarette uh we're not banning kids cell phones they're still going to have a device roll with one hand john's john was probably rolling his own you got a pipe actually yeah yeah i'm whittling whittling a pipe whittling a pipe so i just so i I just think like you're going to end up in a situation where kids are probably going to make, they're going to just vibe code a crazy social network and it's going to invite in a lot of.

2:15:02Sure. I mean, I think, look, regardless, I think we're, we're nearing that point where we need to have a national conversation about this. I don't think anyone out there can say that like kids are better off today as a result of the amount of brain rot and consumption they're doing on these platforms than they were before. And I think like on top of that, these platforms are in the business of getting more addicted to their slop. There's a reason why Instagram moved the Reels tab to where messages used to be. Because they know that once you're on the Reels tab, you're probably going to watch a few more Reels.

2:15:27That's a$50 billion 8th. I was not on the Reels tab at all. I would just check my messages. You swipe and now it's Reels. Now I swipe it down there and I'm like, okay, wow. It is cursed. It's cursed. So I just think that this is a conversation that needs to be parent-led. And we don't really have the data yet to show just how harmful it is. I always just go back to my experience with video games. You know, Halo, I think, was M for mature. I was not supposed to be able to play it until I was 17. I was probably able to get my hands on it at 14. I think I turned out okay. I'm not obsessed with killing aliens and not doing anything.

2:15:59No, I'm actually completely fine. Same thing with Call of Duty. I remember going to GameStop with my mom and trying to buy GTA V, and they had to give you that whole warning. Like, do you know this game includes every horrible thing you've ever heard in your entire life? And it's like, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So having some sort of warning system. I'm a big fan of MPAA ratings coming to tech products. I've been kind of beating that drum for a couple months. But I like, I think the MPAA ratings, I hope that the MPAA figures out a way to work with the tech companies in a way that's like accretive to them.

2:16:29Like they get paid or whatever. Because I think that there's just something about if I say, hey, like Instagram is R-rated, you'll be like, okay, I know what that means. For sure. Or like Instagram is PG-13 rated or it's G-rated. Like I know intuitively and I'm ready as a parent to decide when and maybe I want to say, hey, you know, PG-13 rated movies like a little bit earlier because parental guidance is recommended. It's OK. It's like we can even with video games, I'm a big fan of like cooperative games being a wildly different dynamic than like solo online in like the toxic chat room. whereas if it's like me and my son playing a co-op game together like troubleshooting and stuff even if like the the screen images are a little bit like like adult it's like we're collaborating and so it's a wildly different dynamic than being like lonely and then seeing imagery i mean i do think these are just sort of unfortunately some of the problems we had to deal with with user generated content yeah we're talking about games that were made by hundreds if not thousands of people that had to go through an approval system to get that rating there are dangers when it is totally left up to the person of just making whatever type of content you want of course platforms like youtube are going to police that content and you're not allowed to have you know can murder somebody and have that video exist on on youtube you can't on x though so i think it's just a matter of figuring out like where do we want this conversation to go and like what approvals do we want to give the parents yeah uh want your take on uh the marty supreme marketing campaign Oh, yeah.

2:18:00Because this feels like, to me, I don't pay much attention to movies, but I'm seeing a lot of Marty Supreme content. That's good. It's Geordi's film of the year already. Have you seen it? No, no. I saw it a few weeks ago. I have just seen it on Christmas. I went to the premiere. I understood it came on Christmas from that. But it's fucking, I mean, it's amazing. It's the best movie of the year. I will say it is the best movie of the year. And it's Marty Supreme. Not to put a brother in the race between the two, but Josh Safdie is the GOAT, and he's the one. He's a football. It's the best score.

2:18:33It's the best acting. It's the greatest cast. It's such a phenomenal movie. It's the best score? Best score. Really? Yeah. Interesting. Like the game in the ping pong. No, no, no. Like the music of the movie. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. 21 to zero. I will say, I don't know. I think part is that they're dealing with... Timothy, not that I'm friends with him, has a very short amount of time. I think he's filming Dune right now. So I don't know if that's available for press. I think what they're doing is super creative. Totally. I worry that it's a little inside baseball. And I think like you could be going more mass culture with this, like he did with the Bob Dylan movie by going on Pat McAfee and all these.

2:19:08I will just say the blimp. The blimp. I've been trying to get somebody to use a do a blimp marketing campaign for so long. You want to do a blimp. Yeah. No, I was just pushing like ramp to do a blimp. Yeah. I told the Gemini team do a blimp, right? Like blimps are an amazing asset because you can physically put them over the air. Like you're putting something that is naturally inspiring. You look up and it's a blimp and it's like amazing. They are. And I think it was fun that it was connected to the Instagram video. Of course. It is, it is, it is the movie of the year. It is best picture. Okay.

2:19:35Wow. Best picture. Whoa. Whoa. What's the show of the year? The show of the year. Um, honestly, I feel like I actually didn't catch up that much with television shows this year. I feel a little more. I'm rewatching Homeland though, which I, Oh, Homeland. Wow. That's a throwback. It is a throwback. It hits. It's sort of like Obama era. I remember season one having a great like cliffhanger. I was really into it. You're deeper in the seasons? No, no. I'm like episode seven, season one right now. This is like a new bit. Oh, and you've never seen it? I was kind of like in passing when I was a kid, but I don't really think I like went through it.

2:20:07No, I remember being really into it when I watched it. Anyway, thank you so much for coming on the show. Of course. This was fantastic. Thank you for having me. Great to see you. Congratulations on your booth. Look at this. Yeah, look at this. This is crazy. This is crazy. We're here. We're doing it. So great to have you here. Thank you so much. Have a great rest of your day. I'm going to tell you about adquick.com, out-of-home advertising at easy measure. We'll plan by and measure out-of-home with precision. Did you know the owner of AI.com is DeepSeek? What? Apparently. No way. It could be fake news.

2:20:37It's according to a Google AI overview. Wait, no, no, no. This is completely wrong. Completely wrong. Because it says it was owned by tech YouTuber MKBHD who acquired it from Elon Musk. That doesn't make any sense. That's complete nonsense. um no no no that's like completely unreliable i i'm not buying it i'm not buying it um anyway is there any other news that is worth running through there was a review in the wall street journal of a book called maintenance maintenance of everything part one review making of the future uh by steward brand this is a stripe press book we should try and have him on the show um so uh it begins with this drama this is a this is interesting it's talking about like the the process of maintenance and says the author recounts the stories of three contestants in the 1968 Golden Globe around the world solo sailboat race.

2:21:33One was a former merchant marine whose wooden 32-foot catch was barely adequate for a journey through the punishing Southern Ocean. Make, do, and mend was his motto. Another competitor was a tech whiz who packed his plywood trimaran with electronic gizmos. A dreamy optimist, he set sail in a rush, hoping for the best. The third and the most experienced racer sailed in a purpose-built steel-hulled boat, which he maintained with zen-like discipline. He said he spent his days working calmly at the odd jobs that make up my universe. And so while this story will be familiar to sailors and others who have read the many books written about the race, Mr.

2:22:18Brand mines the competitors harrowing experiences for deep lessons. Maintaining the technology that keeps us alive is more than a necessary. Josh Wolf, remember, he was talking about his thesis for maintenance. I think he was on the show, if I remember correctly. I mean, the idea is like everybody wants to build things. Nobody wants to maintain them. But we have a lot of things in the world that maybe aren't functioning the way that you want them to. You can throw them out or you can like maintain them. Sure, sure, sure. bring them, revitalize them. So I'm excited to read the, did they give a proper review?

2:22:53I mean, the New Yorker isn't, or the Wall Street Journal is not doing exactly like two thumbs up here, but they are reviewing it and they say, maintenance will engage students of technology, challenge business readers, and inspire home tinkerers who will be happy to learn that fixing gadgets is also a path to enlightenment. Fittingly, the book was initially published in installments online, visible at books.worksinprogress.co. As a kind of editorial DIY project, Mr. Brand tends to jump from topic to topic as he follows his passions. Some might find his digressions neandering. I certainly wouldn't have a problem with that.

2:23:35And the author of this post on the Wall Street Journal says, I found them delightful. reflecting that quirky organization, the book ends on a tangent rather than a big wrap-up, but that only raises expectations for part two. And so I think this is a positive review by Mr. Meigs, the former editor of Popular Mechanics and senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute. And I think that concludes our show. I found out AI.com. The owner is trying to sell it, and they're redirecting it to a bunch of different sites to try to generate anything. Exactly. And so people are people. So so they'll they'll send it to MKBHD for a couple of days.

2:24:14I hope that he'll be like. And then and then if you're in the analytics and you're Elon at XAI or something and you're like, oh, wow, I'm getting all this traffic from where. Oh, someone someone redirected at AI dot com to me. I'd be curious. This valuable. Maybe I should buy it. It is a lot of traffic. I wonder how much traffic it actually gets. I have no idea. I can't imagine that there's that many people that are just going to AI dot com. Are those the best customers? Really? Like people haven't made a decision. I mean, openai bought chat.com. So maybe these short, short domains make a lot of sense.

2:24:44I mean, does Google own.ai or something? Because they have ai.studio. So I guess they own the TLD studio. Google doesn't just buy domains. Yeah, see, ai.com only got 93 ,000 visits in October. According to SimilarWeb, which does not seem super valuable. But you could do something fun with it. You could do something interesting with it. I'm sure that there's a way to make it somehow. But it's not worth$100 million in any situation. Yeah. Well, in other funding news, there's$350 million new funding for Castilian, who's been on the show. And the Wall Street Journal is putting in context there's alarm over the hypersonic missile gap, and it's fueling a startup.

2:25:30Boom. The Pentagon is getting serious about hypersonic weapons, a technology that have eluded the U.S. military for decades. It's looking to startups with no experience, but billions of dollars backing them to fill an increasingly glaring hole in the national arsenal. China and Russia both have stockpiles of these long range, super fast, maneuverable weapons. The U.S. doesn't, even though officials consider them essential to winning future conflicts. As the Defense Department belatedly looks to close that gap, private investment is pouring in. And startups, many of which haven't built hypersonic systems at scale and haven't flown at hypersonic speeds, are seeing their valuation soar.

2:26:11The latest is Torrance-based Castilian, which on Friday said it raised$350 million at a$2.8 billion valuation. Wow. Congrats to the team over at Castilian. Great progress. That is fantastic. They were around, I remember they were around like$100 or$200 earlier this year. Oh, yeah. Big, big jump. We are in the back of our show, so I will pull up this post from Jason Freed. He's talking about the best back quarter in the last 50 years. What car is this? This is the Aston Martin Zagato. Oh, the Zagato. No way. Which is probably an underrated car in general. And just a fantastic color. Hopefully the team can pull it up.

2:26:53but Jason has incredible taste in all things in life and certainly in cars. But that's our show for today. We'll be back home on the West Coast on Monday. I can't wait. And thank you for tuning in with us today and yesterday from the NYSE. Thank you to Lynn, Chloe, and the whole team. They're all fantastic. And we will be back here soon. We'll see you on Monday. Cheers. Thank you. Goodbye.