The AI Slop Debate, OpenAI’s $1T Web, 𝕏 Timeline Reactions | Shayne Coplan, Antoine Tessier, Rami Karabibar

28:52He picked a stock that went up 1 ,400 % today. That is an insane pop. Martin Screlly says long SPRB. His price target is$500. It was trading at$25 at the time, or I guess even less. It was trading at$8, and it went out to$152. So on Friday, you could buy one share of Bruce Biosciences for$8.78. It's now trading at$197 per share. That is crazy. Still sitting at$111 million market cap. I still don't understand. He can't run a fund, but he can trade this. Is this financial advice? He seems like he's playing it really fast and loose, but he's clearly calling good stuff and doing research. So I appreciate the work.

29:48He's been, I think, making a lot of people a lot of money. Yeah, so everyone's happy. That's helpful. He says his price target is$500. Rare disease is his specialty. The ERT for San Filippo will be approved, CMC notwithstanding, and be the new standard of care. He said, I was working on a presentation when the news was scooped, but this drug restores the abnormally high levels of heparin sulfate to normal. Without this drug, patients will die at 18. The normal ranges of HS, they may live a normal life. Well, that's really exciting. That seems really good. And TJP says, I'll pass already up too much.

30:23It's just, if it goes up a lot, there's no way it could go up more. There's no way. Well, let me tell you about Figma. Think bigger, build faster. Figma helps design and development teams build great products together. Get started for free, brother. Tyler, start playing around with Figma Make in ChatGPT. I want you to test out the integration. The integration. That sounds very interesting. At Dev Day. Yeah. Do you know if those agent builder tools are like general availability already? Yeah. So I tried to use the agent builder earlier today. And then you have to, I couldn't get it to work because you have to verify your organization.

31:00Okay. And then I tried to put in my ID and then it just like said failed. Interesting. So I don't know. So, yeah, but I'll try it again. But they are generally available. Okay, that's good. Well, Max Meyer is breaking down the Free Press acquisition. This was announced yesterday. Barry Weiss's Free Press was acquired by Paramount. Max says, seeing so much cynicism and bitterness on the timeline about the Free Press. So let me tell you why I love it as a contributor and why it means so much to many people. The FP is a match made in heaven between writers and readers. We writers can't live without readers.

31:39And the FP readers are amazing. Savvy, thoughtful, opinionated, but kind. I can't tell you how many emails, texts, phone calls, DMs I've received every time I put a piece in the FP. These are Americans I want to know. And the FP is their gathering place. I've written pieces about very random things. Warren Buffett, my brother. Warren Buffett's not his brother. There's a comma. He says, I've written about Warren Buffett. I've written about my brother. I've written about a Missouri resort town, the Latter-day Saints church, and SpaceX, which is an amazing blessing. And a credit to their smart editors.

32:12The FP team and their readers care deeply about America, even if they disagree about politics. Just scroll some of the comment sections on Trump-related articles and you'll see the amazing bites and disagreements. What Barry Nellie and the entire FP team have done in three years is now the model for media. Make something so good that people would walk over glass to pay their hard-earned money for it, not to get through some terrible paywall, but to be part of something. The free press is worth every penny Paramount paid. Probably more. How often does a talent like Barry come along? And people who work in the world of talent should know this rather than be cynical or conspiratorial.

32:45Barry and team have a long way to go from here. This is the beginning. The complainers should watch and learn. Which is exciting. Yeah, I mean, I just looked at this as a way to make CBS News relevant again to a new important class of readers, a much younger demographic than the CBS audience today. And you look at it as like a trade deal, right? This is a talent acquisition. Barry Weiss will probably create far more than$150 million of value just by being a part of CBS. Yeah. Also, I mean, I do think that, I mean, we talk about this a lot, but like audience quality is like still deeply misunderstood.

33:29A lot of people just look at total audience size, impressions. They see every reader as the same value. And that was certainly true in the days of the three major networks, CBS, NBC, ABC. But we're just in a completely different, much more fragmented world. And so I don't know if they had a million subscribers or something like that, But the people that opted into the free presses funnel are probably way more monetizable than the people that are, you know, turning on late night CBS for the, you know, 50th time. And so they definitely pulled in interesting people. Pulled in me when they signed Tyler Cowen.

34:13And I've been enjoying his column there. He wrote a wild one about how his favorite new actress is AI. Very controversial. He's really leaning into it. It's great. but Alex Bronzini Vendor is a perfect example of someone who's a little bit of a free press hater. So the free press on October 6th said, the free press is joining Paramount, and they share a link to the FP.com. They put the link right in there, and Alex says, this post has accrued 147 likes in four hours, nearly one for every million dollars Paramount thought the free press was worth. and honestly 147 likes on x with a link in there to a sub stack is uh it's a miracle it's a miracle um but uh yeah people are people are laughing but yeah uh nick says the new york times gets similar likes on twitter you're not saying anything meaningful um and yeah uh i don't think anyone it believes that barry weiss has as big of an audience as mr beast but that doesn't quite matter because it's a different audience and uh and hitting certain audiences is more valuable than other audiences um where else should we go the entrepreneurial tech the hat is back in the news the hat is back in the news and drop a cat break it yeah jordan says the tone of the quote entrepreneurial tech glaze makes me sad for the whole world and all of history that is a bold statement uh i don't know i mean did we talk about this yesterday yeah i think the i think that Anthropics campaign is good.

35:50I don't think it's, and I can see why people want the hat. And Anthropic is a great brand and they have a great team and they have a unique culture and they've been able to retain people. It's the place that many of the brightest minds in AI want to work at. That said, I don't think this is an award-winning campaign. It's like they put a verb on a dad cap, right? We've been doing this since like 2016 is kind of how I clocked it. They're selling coffee. A lot of people in tech have done this. I think this is more just excitement around Anthropics overall positioning, right, as like the anti-slop AI company.

36:33So people are choosing to side with them. And they've built up a cult around what they're doing, which is very powerful. But again, I'm not blown away by the... I love the Anthropic team, and I think their products are amazing. But personally, at no point was I thinking, I need a liner up around the block to get this hat. And I actually wouldn't wear the hat. So anyways, I think... You wouldn't be caught dead in the hat. I wouldn't be caught dead in the hat. No. Don't even try to put one of these on my head. I think the hat is kind of like a sideshow. No, they're cool. They're cool. It's fine.

37:17It's just that you put a verb on a dad hat. Okay. Yeah. Do you want an award? No. They didn't ask for an award. People are just excited about that. No, I know. So Jordan Castro is reacting to the reaction. It's not like Anthropik went out there and was like, please glaze us. It's just like they got glazed. And then Jordan is like, stop at the glaze. And it's not really their fault. But I think the bigger question is like, is like, is I, I just think the question is, can they get a true foothold in consumer? Because this campaign is very consumer focused. I saw these keep thinking billboards on, I don't know, not Melrose, Sunset Boulevard in West Hollywood.

38:03Sandwiched in between two friend.com billboards. Yeah, probably. I'm surprised they could even buy that. board. John and I drive around. We see friend billboards everywhere. You cannot go two blocks. It's like every other block. It's every block. The most massive billboards. We saw a friend.com billboard that is like basically behind the building and I was like, Avi, did you just really hit market buy? He bought everything. He went on adquick.com. Out of home advertising made easier and measurable. Say goodbye to the headaches of out-of-home advertising. Only AgQuick. Yeah. Get on AgQuick because they will help you pick billboards that are not directly up against walls.

38:47Yeah. No, in no circumstance would an entrepreneur with limited resources look at this billboard and think, yep, I got to have this one because it's like more than two thirds of it was covered by a building. You had to be at the most insane angle while you're driving by you have to you have to peek around out your window yeah so i mean uh but so here's what i'll say about anthropics campaign yeah breath of fresh air yep it's quality yep it's not award-winning yep and i think that the people that like it i totally get why they like it yeah breath of fresh air i understand why other people that are not in tech are thinking, this is the best that you got.

39:29Yep. This is your hero. Yep. It's like the bar is just pretty low, right? Yeah. The bar overall is low. And one of the challenges is that AI, the brands of AI companies get tied to the outputs. Yep. And sometimes the outputs are great and most often they're not so great, right? And so I'm interested to see how aggressive OpenAI gets with that video campaign they did with the, what's the tele, Euphoria. Yeah, the Euphoria. I thought those videos were great. Yes. What's interesting is that Anthropic did a video series that was very similar aesthetically. Warm tones, highly cinematic, shallow depth of field, very emotional, like just a few weeks or months earlier.

40:17I can't even keep track at this point. So both of them were experimenting in the same brand landscape. I personally would like our sponsor Vanta to do a hat that's actually just a huge llama helmet and it says automate compliance, manage risk, with trust continuously on it and it should also say, you know, the Anthropic hat is so simple, it's just this thinking, it doesn't even say Anthropic on it, I think the Vanta hat should say Vanta's trust management platform takes the manual work out of your security and compliance process and replaces it with continuous automation, whether you're pursuing your first framework or managing a complex program, like all the way around the hat Just put the entire landing page on the hat.

40:52I think that would be innovative. There's also, I was thinking, somebody needs to make a, nobody's made the AI smart helmet yet that you can wear all the time from the moment that you wake up to the moment you go to bed, potentially even when you're sleeping. Think about how much compute you can put in a helmet. You can have so much battery. You can have all day battery, all month battery. All month battery. Also, wearing a motorcycle helmet is incredibly cool. Hardcore. I mean, I know you haven't seen Kill Bill, but The Bride, played by Uma Thurman in Kill Bill, Tarantino classic, wears this motorcycle outfit with this motorcycle helmet and just looks so sick.

41:32Yeah, so next time we talk with Zuck, that's going to be my pitch. Yep. AI motorcycle helmet that you can daily. Imagine you're just like - In the workplace. Just rocking it in the workplace, and you're just like, I'm locking in. I don't - Put the screen down. We're joking about it, but I could see this actually being created. It's like a rugged helmet. Dude, it's more comfortable to wear a ski helmet or a motorcycle helmet than Apple Vision Pro. Let's be honest about it. And so why not strap that whole thing on your head? I love it. It's amazing. I have a couple rebuttals to you. First, I'm going to talk about graphite.dev.

42:08Code review for the age of AI. Graphite helps teams on GitHub ship higher quality software faster. But so Anthropic in consumer. They're clearly behind. but it's very interesting because they have a fantastic model that can instantiate code very quickly. You could do all of this like on the fly app development, basically. So when you ask a question, it actually builds a piece of software for you that's interactive. There's so many cool things that they can do with their foundation model. Also, they have Mike Krieger. And so I just feel - I was trying to push him on a little bit. What can you do on the social side to catalyze Claude's growth.

42:44Yeah. Like when I think of the backlash to Meta Vibes, the backlash to Sora 2 and Sora, if I were to try and build a team that would not face backlash to a consumer product, to a new consumer product, I would back Claude with Mike Krieger, right? Because he's going to build something that's delightful, just like the early days of Instagram. I would think that he would inject that kind of simplicity and beauty into the product that they build. Who knows? Maybe it's coming. Maybe every foundation model company needs an answer to the AI slop TikTok feed. And I would be very excited to see what comes out of Anthropic.

43:21The other take on this hat is, hat aside, I think that keep thinking is a good phrase. I think thinking is a good phrase. I think it's a good word. I think they picked that word well, and it excites me, and it actually hits, like you can talk a lot about it like oh they just a word on a hat but of all the words to pick it feels more human it feels less uh less cyber punky it feels less like super and personal super intelligence feels like okay maybe that's opposed to my interests like fast takeoff all these scary ai doom things which anthropic is like honestly famous for everybody is loving this campaign, but thinking machines lab.

44:11That is true. Absolutely brutal. But I thought it was interesting that the message is keep thinking. If you're a human, keep thinking. Don't stop thinking. What we do here at Anthropic is not think for you. That's an interesting message because for a long time, people were saying - They say, we here for you. a lot of the, what's that from? Waystar Roy. Oh yeah.

44:39So a lot of, uh, like a lot of the AI, like a lot of the AI rhetoric has been the AI will be able to think for you. And Anthropic is specifically putting on a billboard, whether they believe it or not, or whether that's where AI actually goes, they're encouraging you to say, Hey, keep thinking. Because that's not our job. Our job, you do the thinking and we do the coding and all the boring stuff. Are you sure they're not just worried? It's like, hey, you guys are relying on Claude a little too much. Keep thinking, buddy. Maybe. Keep thinking yourself. And so that is the question is like, is this Dario's new view?

45:13Because the view that Dario has espoused on many a podcast is, yeah, you're not going to be thinking because there's like a 45 % chance that everyone's dead. You know, he comes out with some hardcore rhetoric that does not feel extremely warm or human or anything about like, hmm, hat, like, are you gonna be wearing hats if we're all paperclips? Like, no. And so like, is this a, is this the marketing team at Anthropic saying like, let's, let's step away from Dario's viewpoint a little bit, or is it more Dario has actually shifted his thinking and is saying like, no, I actually feel like what we are building is complimentary to humans.

45:52That would be exciting. And I feel like that would be inspiring to me. and I would be excited about that. And so I don't know where all this goes, but I think it's a step in the right direction. There are so many other campaigns that could have been less human, more clanker coded and would not have hit. And this one clearly hit to the point where it got so much positive attention that there was a backlash to the positive attention, which I think is, it's kind of the best case scenario for a really positive ad campaign is that people get sick of people talking about how good your ad campaign was.

46:30So I think it was pretty good. We need to react to the AI homeless man prank on someone's dad. Yep. We've been instructed that we must do a - Our silence has been deafening. It has been deafening. Can we pull this video up? While we pull it up, Avi Schiffman has hit the timeline again. He says, every single available bus shelter in LA now has a friend ad. So apparently there weren't enough ads. That's what people were saying. They were like, Avi. They said more. We need more billboards. You gotta push this campaign further. There just aren't enough billboards. People aren't aware of your campaign.

47:07You're barely making through, buddy. Snap it up. Let's watch the AI homeless man prank on my dad video. Okay, so you take a picture, send it to the dad. I can't read any of this. This is too small.

47:30Is this like Nano Banana adding the dad to the pictures of the actual house? Seven phone calls from the dad. So he's pitching, I'm bringing in the homeless person into my house. No. Oh, in the bed. 13 phone calls. Do you think this is at all real or do you think this is all theater? Do you think this is all created? All theater. All theater. But it's mildly entertaining. Yeah. It is an interesting case study in like AI slop in the sense that like it's using AI to create, you know, Photoshop text messages, I suppose. And getting a laugh out of that. Yeah, it's like using AI to lie for entertainment.

48:19To lie, yes. But the lie is like a meta-commentary on the nature of AI slop, right? Because the joke is on the dad or the theoretical, hypothetical dad and the character of the dad. Anyway, let's talk about Julius. What analysis do you want to run? Chat with your data and get expert-level insights in seconds. Ask Julius to analyze your data. Images that make you feel pain? There's a post here from Aishwarya who says, low-key, the anthropic NYC pop-up hype is proof a lot of tech people have never been invited to a Fashion Week event or a real brand activation before keyword being invited. That's probably true.

49:05I mean, these are wildly different worlds. Hayden Johnson has a post here that says, every AI ad is like, hey, Gemini, what would I have for lunch? and then the phone is like sandwich and the guy is like wow wow okay we need to watch the video of Ken Griffin giving some hot takes about the AI boom this should be the most near term bearish thing you watch today from Bourbon Capital finally someone isn't afraid to speak the truth people have been speaking the truth or giving hot takes for months now let's just make that clear but let's hear it from Ken Griffin himself at the Future of Global Markets 2025 Cedrill Securities Conference.

49:52Large language models in particular have been in existence for a few years. I think there's a real chance that when we think about the forms of AI that are alluded to by many of the markets leaders today, that their dream for the future may not take three to five years to play out. it could be 20 years it could be 30 years you know it's like the internet and i people hate this analogy but like the dot-com moment back at the start of this century did anyone have any doubt that the internet was going to change the world no has the internet changed the world absolutely but did it take longer than anticipated and was there a period in which which there was a real sort of sorting of the winners and losers that took place unequivocally unequivocally and i think that the ai story will have many the same components there's a bubble and people calling for bubbles tyler but i think this is this is this is just ultimately a very sound analysis and it's coming from somebody who is highly intelligent highly accomplished highly invested and yet doesn't personally, to my knowledge, have a billion dollars of equity in a lab who's incentivized to keep the part.

51:20Well, he might have a billion dollars, like this second and then not tomorrow. And then not the next second and then this second. Ken's going to make money no matter what. Yeah, yeah. He doesn't, you know, I'm sure he's making a lot of money now. Maybe in a correction he makes less, but he's going to do fine no matter what. And so it's important to - got roasted in the financial crisis. Yeah. They drew down 50%. Yeah. Didn't he almost like wind down the fund? Yeah, it was really, really rough. But it's important to not just listen to the predictions and opinions of people who have the heaviest bags that are dependent on keeping the party going as long as possible.

52:00Tyler, what you got? So it could also be that his competitors are invested in the AI labs, right? I think Jane Street is big in... Anthropic? Yeah, big in anthropic. Oh, okay, yeah. So maybe it's really... Lack of bags. He has lack of bags, so he's bearish. Sidelined. Lack of bags is as much of a conflict as... Not having conflicts is a conflict because you don't have bags, and so you're incentivized to be bearish on people that have bags. Yeah. This is a fact. He wants to crush his enemies. Tyler, how many days until the singularity? We're still at 3650. I guess it should have... 3650. There wasn't a lot of big news since I changed it last, so I guess it should have gone down every day.

52:40So 10 years until the singularity. We need to be updating that daily, so at least we're ticking down. But watching that Ken Griffin clip, are you adding days? Are you removing days? What are you thinking? Ken Griffin is kind of boomer-coded, so I'm saying we're closer to AGI after watching this. Okay. You think he's a contraindicator for AGI progress? Yeah, yeah. Okay. So you're removing days. So we're down at like 3 ,000 days now. Just nine years. I mean, 600 days, I think that's almost two years, right? That's a little too big of an update. Yeah. But I would say 50 days. Yeah. Did either of you watch the Dwarkesh Sutton reaction?

53:16The apology video someone said. This is so funny. It was not an apology video. Dwarkesh did apologize in the video, but only saying, I apologize if I'm mischaracterizing your statement and I have some of the ground truth wrong. But I thought it was interesting. I felt like I came away originally thinking that the bitter lesson was poor, endless compute behind any algorithm that's working in scaling, when Sutton kind of reclassifies it as like the game of the AI researcher is to hunt for the next algorithm that will scale with compute. and he's not saying that any algorithm will necessarily scale infinitely with compute.

53:57And so my takeaway was that if he looks at LLMs, he's like, good progress for four ooms, maybe need a new thing to go for the next five ooms or something like that. Was that your read? Yeah, I mean, the thing about LLMs is like the scaling, there's just no more data to scale with. So it's like not kind of bitter lesson pill in that sense anymore because you can't just keep throwing more compute at the same LMs because if you just make the models bigger or whatever, it's not like it's not going to get better. The model won't be better because the data is constrained. Yeah. Yeah. It's this weird thing where like you can zoom out and look at like computing power over the past 50 years and see a very, very smooth curve.

54:43then you can look at like the ai winters and see that there's like these huge steps in progress the transformer paper um the uh i don't know there's been a whole bunch of like uh image net right reasoning models reasoning models big big step forward and those are like those are like a decade apart sometimes um and so you get these like qualitative bumps where you're like oh wow like this feels different. But then in that interim, you might not see a lot of like qualitative jumps in clear progress, clear new capabilities, but the diffusion of that economic value is immense. And so we like technically pre-LLM, we were kind of in an AI winter, I suppose, where like, you know, self-driving cars were like 10 years behind and nothing was really like popping in AI.

55:34AI was not a buzzword. People weren't using.AI domains. But in the period of time from, call it 2010 to 2020, what was the economic impact of AI? It was insane, right? Because Netflix was doing recommendation algorithms. Amazon was doing recommendation algorithms. The Facebook algorithmic ad feed, TikTok feeds. AI wasn't transformer-based LLMs, but AI was a massive driver of economic growth. Do you think it's possible that Anguilla created the AI hype cycle in order to sell more.ai domains? Isn't like 50 % of their GDP AI domains now? I think 50 % of their basically budget comes from.ai domains.

56:18It's remarkable. Well, if you want to generate some media, head over to Fall, the generative media platform for developers. The world's best generative image, video, and audio models all in one place develop and fine-tune models with serverless GPUs and on-demand clusters. And if you want to bring our soundboard into your team meetings, your team Zooms, your team Hangouts, go to tbpn.com slash sounds. Brought to you by fall. Yes. Chubby says, I double-checked. You can already buy Unitry's G1 at Walmart. Only$21 ,000 shipping in one week. Tesla must hurry to deploy their Optimus. Do we buy one?

56:55Do we buy one? We got to, right? We got to. We have to buy one of these and have Tyler fight it. It's such a wild thing to let a fox into the hen house, but sometimes you got to do it, right? The global economy let Sam Altman and the fox into the hen house. And we'll see what happens. The fox and the hen house analogy is amazing. But I don't think of the TBP and Ultradome as a hen house. We got to get the Unitree G1 Basic. This is the CCP fox into the Ultradome and just... I think of the TBPN Ultra Dome less as a hen house and more as a bull ring. It's more of a fox house. We're still on the farm.

57:34But over here you have the bulls jacked, fighting. You mess with the bull, you get the horns. Unitry, you're on notice. If you send over Unitry G1 Basic for$21 ,000 shipping in one week and you try any funny stuff, you're getting the horns. Because this is not a hen house. I would say this is like letting a clanker into the fox house. We're all foxes now. I think we, I think I, I, this is a head in the fox house, the foxhole. I, I'd be kind of worried leaving the G1 basic with Tyler, you know, presumably Tyler would be tasked with setting it up, but then you're thinking about, okay, the G1 is going to be here with Tyler.

58:17So potentially after hours and I'd just be a little bit worried. So we can, so we can train it to swipe ramp cards or something. What can we do with this? You could automatic gong hits. Ooh, automatic gong hits sounds good. Put me out of a job. Wow. Real, real black fellow economic. Dario was right. Automate white collar work, white collar work, AKA gong hits. White collar and I hit a gong. That is remarkable. I can't believe we're doing this again, like we did with drones, where we're just going to let Unitree just flood the market. Yes. Where is, where, where are the hawks? I'm normally, normally, you know, against government intervention, but.

58:59Two hour battery life. Look at this thing. We got to get one. Tyler wants it so badly. I wonder, I wonder what else you can do with it. Like how strong is the API? Does it have like the ability to issue voice commands? Okay, here's what we do. Can you like wrap up the entire API? You replace the hands with ramp cards. There you go. Swiping everything. You get dangerous. Anyway, we are being joined by Shane from Polymark in just a few minutes. In the meantime, let me tell you about what Bucco Capital Bloke is saying on the timeline. He says, we had a good thing, you stupid son of a, we had 98 % gross margins and LTV to CAC ratios above five.

59:35We were considered safer than first lean debt. Nobody questioned our terminal value or stock-based compensation. We had everything we needed and it all ran like clockwork. You could have shut your mouth, funded a few new SaaS companies each year and made as much money as you needed, but you just had to blow it up. You and your pride and your ego. Talking about AI. Lots of people having fun. Well, in the rest of the AI world. Obviously, OpenAI sent around a bunch of basically deal toys for people that spent over or used a trillion tokens with OpenAI. Notion got one. Ramp got one. A bunch of others.

1:00:12Lauren Good says, this is sort of like spending a million bucks gambling and the casino gives you a free hotel room for the night. It's close. I think that's the next leg up in the cycle. Cognition got one trillion. One trillion. Ramp got one. And I was trying to do the math on how much a trillion tokens actually cost so I could clock how much these companies are spending. ChatGPT clocked it as if they're doing GPT 3.5 Turbo, that's the cheapest, cheaper case. That's a million bucks. If it's GPT 4 Standard, that's$45 million. So potentially hitting, I mean, Notion has talked about how this hit the gross margins.

1:00:54It's not an immaterial cost, but a lot of value to the customers. And Tyler, what's the cheapest way? Do you have an update on how cheaply you could acquire one of these deal toys? Yeah, so the main thing you would do is you can do batched API calls. So instead of just doing like one and then you get the response, you send like a ton. And then I think it's like within 24 hours you'll get the response back. Do you actually do that when you run your examples? No, none of the stuff I do is... Oh, so money just doesn't matter to you around here. You just don't care about cost optimization at TPPM.

1:01:25I got to be timely. Oh, yeah, that's true. But I think that is... That is money. I think that's either 50 % or 90%. And then the other thing you do is you can do cached inputs, which is like... I forget which one is which, 50 or 90%. But if you combine those, then it's like massive savings. So then I think if you combine those with... Is 3.5 triple the cheapest? I feel like it's GPT-5 Nano. Yeah, something like that. But I think you could probably do it for a couple thousand dollars. I think I saw someone, maybe they were talking about 10 million tokens. Billion. 10 billion tokens. I think that post was like$25.

1:01:57But they said$25 for a 10 billion token. So for two grand, you could potentially get one of these deal toys that are pretty rare. You might be able to flip these. Who knows? This is a piece of lore. Did you see Matt Levine's summary of AMD and Opening AI? Yes. Martin Scrawley put this in the truth zone, to be clear. Let's read it. But first, let me tell you about Turbo Puffer. search every byte, serverless vector and full text search, built from first principles on object storage, fast, 10x cheaper and extremely scalable. Read Matt Levine's summary. How do these negotiations go? Like schematically.

1:02:27OpenAI. We would like six gigawatts worth of your chips to do inference. AMD, terrific. That will be$78 billion. How would you like to pay? OpenAI. Well, we were thinking that we would announce the deal and that would add$78 billion to the value of your company, which should cover it. AMD, dot, dot, dot. OpenAI, dot, dot, dot. AMD no I'm pretty sure you have to pay for the chips opening I why AMD I don't know it just seems wrong not to opening I okay why don't we pay you cash for the value of the chips and you give us back stock and when we announce the deal the stock will go up and we'll get our 78 billion back AMD here we go AMD yeah I guess that works I feel like we should get some of the value opening okay you can have half you give us stock worth like 35 billion and you can keep the rest martin screlly didn't like it he said this is not at all what happened in matt levine is stupid you shouldn't read him zero days wall street experience word sell he's not happy about it mogged mogged but uh um this is interesting i think it's i think it's a funny day from uh uh j bull tard on x uh how hilarious is this oracle move oracle makes all the ai names rip on some made-up capex guide using revenue that doesn't exist from open ai and now it sinks the entire space with bad news regarding ai capex not working what a joke I mean, how quickly do you expect the capex to pay off?

1:03:53Oracle sold off hard this morning. It went from$290 a share to$270 a share, but it's climbing back up. We may be back to where we were. I think that's because people are reading into that article about the margins. Is the information the new Hindenburg Research? Potentially, but I think people corrected the record pretty quickly on that. Yeah, if you were expecting high margins, it's like two weeks out from the Oracle news, maybe a month. I mean, I guess we were at the stock exchange for, uh, for the Klarna IPO when the Oracle news broke, right. Or it was then, right. Yeah. That week. So that was just a couple weeks ago.

1:04:34And, uh, and, um, I mean, it was definitely like the most aggressive deal ever. And it was a crazy deal, but, uh, people are potentially reading too much into the near term, the near-term financial impacts. Because it just takes time to understand. If the demand shows up and more people pay and the ads monetize and more people are seeing ads on Sora or paying for credits, there is a world where the economy keeps flowing back and forth and consumers are putting money into the system. And so even these circular deals work out. You want to know something bullish? Please. I'd love a bullish. Russia's flagship AI product is called GigaChat.

1:05:18that's bearish because russia is the bear right their mascot cool name that's a crazy mascot to pick russia just instantly bearish your entire country uh wait what what is it it's called giga chat giga chat that's a pretty good name all the different countries are really leaning into their sovereign ai yeah you don't hear much about russian ai though no i was wondering when they would get around to announcing something like because they have all these incredible math uh like math experts you'd think that they would be like really really good um but maybe they've been preoccupied with a bunch of other stuff going on certainly yeah i mean they lost uh nebius too which would have been a national champion had they not gotten into a that is a crazy story yeah we gotta have the nebius ceo on and dig into that it's what what a wild wild time uh good morning Nat Ellison.

1:06:11Is it Eliason? How do I pronounce that? Nat Eliason. Good morning. Remember the name. Do we have time to get through this Wilmanitis post? This looks a little long. Yeah, this is the new meta, I think. I think the algorithm has changed on X. It used to be all about short, pithy, punchy posts, but now the 500 word long post is doing really well. And so We're seeing a lot more of those. Jeremy Giffon has dropped a couple that have done very well. Will Manitis is now getting in on the action. Let's read through it. He says, every few weeks now, a fee-drunk allocator declares a company going from zero to two million is not interesting.

1:06:53Only the ones that go from zero to 500 million. This is, of course, a very silly idea, but it is proximal to an important one. We are returning to a much older model for growth of internet companies. Welcome to the deal, Yuga. Following the dot-com crash, the modern internet company was defined by sales as its fundamental motion for growth. Scared of the business development of the 90s, companies would hire farms of thousands of SDRs to smile, dial, and build pipeline. ACVs across the businesses fell steadily over the decades as we realized if we lowered the contract price, collective delusions like product-led growth allowed increasingly lower and lower individuals on the totem pole to sign software contracts when cold called and thus increase the speed in which a business could grow albeit in smaller and smaller steps as the discretionary spend capabilities of a random software engineer increased this is like the bottom up adoption of software so did the viability of product-led growth and thus we cargo culted a set of growth metrics built around it time to 100 million, cloud 100, et cetera.

1:07:57Some good businesses were built alongside many bad ones. It's easy to think of PLG as a trauma response to the dot-com and subsequent SaaS bubbles. If you lower your engine of growth to only grow in human-sized chunks, you can both grow increasingly predictably that revenue and decrease the damage of any given customer imploding has on your entire book. The best way to think of PLG perhaps is to perhaps imagine it as the golden calf of Exodus 32. If we had the real God, Enterprise, and we decided to take the easier path after he stopped, when he stopped speaking momentarily. The shift we are watching today with many companies growing quickly, one to a hundred million dollars in 48 hours, and many companies growing in massive chunks, OpenAI owning AMD, et cetera, is not a new model, but instead a return to the origin of this industry.

1:08:52Deals. Deals are, of course, the origin of the internet business itself. The internet business, as originally built, raised money exclusive to conduct deals. The 90s were awash with channel partnerships, leasing agreements, customer book buyouts, IP sharing and washing, and all kinds of beautiful deals. Deals. Deals, in all caps. The incredible Alex Danko, speaking on Jackson Dahl's podcast, put this well. One of the interesting hallmarks of that era was that much of the genuinely forward progress a company had to make was by doing deals. The incredible stable surfaces and platforms we enjoy today, from which you can just build and get growth, didn't exist.

1:09:30Companies were ultimately dependent on business development at a much earlier and more critical stage. The path was much more milestone-driven, involving major deals. For instance, you had to secure vendors for compute, buy computers, buy a database from Oracle, and also arrange distribution deals priced in than it ought to have been. Sound familiar? It certainly should. Even Oracle is still the same. These$100 to$500 million stories are not software companies growing fundamentally quicker than their predecessors. They are software companies growing in fundamentally different ways. As we return to the deal yuga, we should expect the shape of these companies and the teams that run them to change even further.

1:10:09The teams and investors that learn from history from the first great deal age will avoid the many pitfalls that come from this kind of growth. Chief amongst them, the idea that partnerships and infrastructure providers much larger than you are somehow win-win altruistic arrangements. And not having you the device of your underdog, of your undoing and hoping for the best. welcome to the second deals era we've never been more back it's fun very similar to what i mean this is what people say about you know in another life sam altman would be on wall street yeah being as a banker yeah right doing deals yeah so it is uh even his critics should admit that uh it's remarkable fantastic deals guy remarkable and And I think people have been so skeptical of the early deals, like the Microsoft deal.

1:11:02It seems like that deal completely saved OpenAI. They were never going to get Compute as a nonprofit. They had to do this insane deal to create this for-profit entity, very complicated, something that requires an immense amount of greasing the wheels. And we're just seeing more and more of these founder-to-founder deals, no investment bankers involved. It really is the era of the high agency dealmaker. Jeremy Caffon was talking about this. I asked Patrick Hoshanasi about this on the show, this idea that in the future, folks with private equity backgrounds, investment banking backgrounds, might be better as founders because they are more set up to be deals guys on day one, as opposed to the more product-focused, PLG-focused, engineering-focused founder of the YC 2010 era that was focused on building a product that was sticky, had a viral loop, would grow and kind of just compound.

1:12:01And then eventually they would learn to do deals at some point, but that was something that they would add on later, like learning financial engineering in the second decade of your company. Now companies and founders seem to be adopting these ideas on day one. For sure. Well, there's a video that went quite viral yesterday that we can pull up in the timeline. Another illustration of the deals between NVIDIA, AMD, and OpenAI. While we pull that up, let me tell you about Profound. Get your brand mentioned in ChatGPT. Reach millions of consumers who are using AI to discover products and brands. And we will pull up this video.

1:12:39Let's see it. Where did this come from? You just saw this on the timeline. Is this AI generated? We need some audio here. Let's see. AMD, NVIDIA. Isn't that Three Stooges? I think it is. Uh-uh. You owe me 20. Here's 10. I owe you 10. Here's the 10. I owe you. Here's the 10. Speaking of money, how about the 20 bucks you owe me? Oh, yeah. Well, I only got 10, so here's 10. I owe you 10. Thanks. Hey, Moe. You owe me 20. Well, here's 10. I owe you 10. Uh-uh. You owe me 20. Here's 10. I owe you 10. Here's the 10. I owe you. Here's the 10. I owe you. Good. Now we're all even. And speaking of money, how about the$20?

1:13:19Just keeps looping.

1:13:24Somebody quoted this and said, a copy says, 25 years ago, this was called round tripping and was considered illegal. After investors suffered trillions in losses, it will probably be considered illegal again. So we will see. It's kind of the Wild West right now. Well, in non-AI news for once, we have Shane from Polymarket joining the show. He's in the Restream Waiting Room. We'll bring him into the TV in Ultradome. Shane, how are you doing? Look at that setup. You look fantastic. Shane, can you hear us? I can hear you guys. I cannot see you guys. Okay. Okay. Well, trust that we are looking at you and smiling at you.

1:14:06You look fantastic. You look fantastic. What a day. Today's about you. break down the news? It's hard not to look fantastic with this backdrop. This backdrop. Yeah. Right there. I had to FaceTime all my family members be like, hey, look at that. With all the AI stuff, you got to show that it's true. You got to break through. From the bathroom office in 2020 to the nice seat in 2025, anything is possible. What a run. Take us through the deal today. Take us through the news. what are the key points in the announcement?

1:14:45Yeah, I mean, look, I've never been really like a deal guy or a guy that's very focused on, you know, I would say a lot of entrepreneurs, they're very optimizing around fundraising, et cetera. I really just like building things. And usually what I've found is when you get traction and when you get motion and when people start taking notice of what you do, the money usually follows. and in this case there was a lot of interest from people who wanted to invest and I'm very grateful and humbled by all of it and then Jeff reached out to me and it was kind of like we got we got to talking he has he knows markets and traditional finance better than anybody he runs his own company that he started solo founder like myself and there were all these ideas that we had that we could do together and we were very like-minded on it and he was a big fan of Polymarket.

1:15:34So when he started saying, hey, let's do something, there were a lot of synergies that came together quickly. So it's very exciting. And this is not a token strategic investment. I mean, this is very, very meaningful. I think I, correct me if I'm wrong, but this is like the single, this is the single largest investment in a crypto company ever. Okay. Yeah. Give us the actual numbers. What's the structure of the deal? Is this a strategic deal? Are you giving it a series number, like a letter? How are you actually describing the deal? I want to ring the gong for you. I want the numbers. Yeah, they're investing$2 billion.

1:16:23Let's go. Hit that gong. There we go. Oh, the gong's from your side. I thought the gong was like a periodic New York Stock Exchange thing. The gong is from our side. We have it here in the studio. What can you share about what the partnership will actually look like over the next 12, 24 months and beyond? What's most exciting about it to you? I mean, look, it's right now such a moment for prediction markets. It's been exciting for us to sort of be, like, you know, sit there. and even two years ago, it really was a category that people kept writing off and saying, oh yeah, it's an idea that makes so much sense, but it's never going to work.

1:17:08We're really excited that we were able to buy QC and be set up to enter the U.S. market. I think it's lining up perfectly. The stars are lining. The timing's about as good as it could be. So on that side, there's a lot in terms of data and in terms of distribution and sort of who can have access to Polymarket, particularly in the U.S., but also globally. because ICE has, you know, exchange assets all around the world. But also, Jeff in particular, as he mentioned on CBC earlier, is like, he's a big believer in tokenization. He's a big believer in all assets are going to be tokenized. It's a superior technology for the exchange of assets.

1:17:48And Polymarket is the biggest consumer product that's built on tokenization. Under the hood. For every prediction market, it's actually tokenized. There's a yes token and no token. So there's a lot of ideas we've kicked around there. And I think ICE has incredible savvy and Jeff is incredible savvy about how you can do these things, utilizing existing assets and understanding sort of the existing matrix of U.S. regulation. and then where there could be pockets that there may have to be collaboration between the regulators and the innovators for how to basically do things that exist but in a more efficient way utilizing new technology.

1:18:29So that's the thing that I'm definitely going to be leaning on him for. That's not the thing that I'm, you know, I can't say that I'm the best at that like he is. But in terms of the consumer side and building the products, ICE doesn't have any consumer properties, right? So that's where we come in. And that's where I think him and I, we have this mutual understanding, common ground of how these products could work. It's a very innovative guy, very forward thinking. And, you know, we can kind of see the vision in terms of polymarket.com, how it can look there. And he can understand the infrastructure and how to make it happen from the regulatory and infrastructure side.

1:19:01Did you ever expect prediction markets to be in South Park to have an episode? Was that on your bingo card for this year or was that still a surprise? Yeah, I mean, I love South Park. Like, I grew up a South Park kid. I remember watching the original movie. I remember being at Best Buy and buying season two, season three on VHS. And, look, I think that it's funny because the geopolitical markets on Polymarket have proven to be extremely useful. like in the WhatsApp groups from people in the Middle East and people who are into open source intelligence, OSINT, they really watch Polymarket like a hawk.

1:19:43And the sort of crux of the episode being this idea of like, you know, this sort of, well, the mother in the Jewish family, you know, bomb Gaza, like that kind of being, it's this play on those markets. It's like, it's definitely pushing it, but it's also just so South Park. And, you know, it's obviously all in good fun, but the way that they interpreted the situation and distilled it into a South Park episode, you know, you wouldn't expect anything less from them. What about just the Intercontinental Exchange, ICE, founded in 2000, backed by Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, Shell, Deutsche Bank, Sock General.

1:20:30It is the ultimate bridge to Wall Street. How important are those connections? Are you already plugged into all the Wall Street firms? Is this a new pipeline for you to just Wall Street generally and professionalization? How does that all play out for you? Absolutely. Look, I've historically been more of a cold email guy, so I don't think that would get me that far on this street. And yeah, you know, when I talked to Jeff and co about this, like they know everyone and everyone's a text or an email or phone call away. And that's really exciting because there's a lot of interest. Every time I meet somebody who's, you know, from the traditional world high up, they, they love Polymarket.

1:21:16They love what we do. They're obsessed with the data and they oftentimes track it. And, you know, it's something that Polymarket's something that they look at frequently. And, you know, now one having the bridge, but also having the credibility of, of such a great partner, uh, it's probably hard to underestimate how important that will be in terms of us bridging the gap, especially as we ran into the U S market and we opened up for institutions. Fantastic. Well, absolutely iconic image today of you outside the exchange. Congratulations. It's funny, like we've had so many misconnections, right?

1:21:51Like, there were so many times we were going to hop on and I was going to be in a little booth or like a little chair in the back and I said you know one time if I'm going to go on your guys pod it's got to be special I got to figure out how to mog one way or another well mog you did Shane so here we are thank you for everything that you do to make this show possible I appreciate it I'm a huge fan of what you guys do and it's awesome to see right there that the polymarket ticker you guys are real champions, pioneers thanks so much for having me great to have you on Shane, congratulations to you and the whole team we'll talk to you soon cheers those cubes look fantastic absolutely mogging we have another post here Blake Robbins said yesterday, OpenAI is operating on a different level, the amount they have shipped in the past few weeks and months is incredible True.

1:22:48Eric says, indeed impressive, but the scattershot nature raises questions about the company's discipline and ability to support these disparate initiatives. Is OpenAI a frontier research lab, a social network operator, a commerce engine, a hardware company? Because it's hard to do all of that well. I would say they are a hyperscaler. If you look at any of the hyperscalers, they have a frontier research lab. They usually have a social network. They usually have a commerce engine. They usually have a hardware division. Yep. And it is hard to do all of them well. I think that Sam is playing for keeps, right?

1:23:27He's, you know, there's a lot of founders that wouldn't have launched Asura as a standalone app, right? There's a lot of founders that wouldn't acquire a company for$6.5 billion that doesn't have a working product yet and just kind of an idea of what they want to build, right? But he is incredibly aggressive. He's fast becoming too big to fail. And I think that put differently, if you asked, okay, this company has 800 million weekly active users. Do you think it's fair that they would get experiment with a social network? Do you think it's fair that... So there's a lot of companies with far less scale that are doing this kind of range of activities, But you have to, my framework for OpenAI now is looking at them as a hyperscaler that's going to launch products all the time, some of which will work, some won't.

1:24:23And that's totally okay. They're just, they're experimenting, they're shipping, and they're taking big swings because at this point for them to take, for them to create something that's meaningful to their business, it has to be a billion dollar opportunity. I agree. I have a rebuttal, but first I'm going to tell you about Linear. Linear is a purpose-built tool for planning and build products. Meet the system for Microsoft development, streamline issues, projects, and product roadmaps. So back in GPT-3 launch 2020, I was playing around in the playground and I was writing video essays at the time about companies and I wanted to create a list of companies that could potentially profile.

1:25:06And so back in the day, there was no prompt, there was no RL, there was no RLHF. And so you had to, as Rune told us, like the foundation models are complete hallucination. And so you had to write a prompt that would really set it up to just continue what you were saying because it was just guessing the next word and it was not very good at it. And what I did was I went to GPT-3 in the playground and I typed out like some of the most interesting business stories in history. And I put one, Theranos, two, WeWork, three, Lehman Brothers, four, dot space. And then it would continue to fill in based on your prompt that you had written.

1:25:48and it's just trying to guess the next word. And it actually did come up with some interesting companies that weren't on my radar, and I was able to go and Google them and fact check them and understand those stories. It never really became part of my workflow, but I thought it was interesting. And at the time, I was thinking like, this is a search engine. Like it's just something that I would normally have gone to Google and searched for like top 10 most interesting companies, and I would have gotten a listicle, but GPT-3 just gave me the text itself. And so for a while, my model for ChatGPT and OpenAI has been like, they're just the new Google.

1:26:24And my wondering is like, how much of the culture of Google has, you know, is a natural outgrowth of just having a fast growing consumer, you know, web app. And if ChatGPT is growing, then will they have a bunch of 20 % time projects? And so the social network operator, the commerce engine, the hardware company, like Google's tried a bunch of those. They tried Google Plus. They tried Google Glass. Those didn't work. But YouTube's a great social network, loosely. And their Android phone ecosystem is a successful hardware bet. Commerce engine, certainly that's cooking at Google. And so I do wonder how much you, like, I agree the scattershot nature raises questions about the company's discipline.

1:27:15But we've seen it play out before where if you have an engine that's growing, growing, growing, you can actually go and do a bunch of 20 % time projects. Some of them hit, some of them don't. Also, Sam Altman has never come out and said focus is our highest virtue and we're just going to work on chat GPT. It's like, okay, their research, they're becoming an infrastructure player, right? They're going to experiment in all the different areas. They have an API, cloud business. They do, right? I think I would be interested to see if they do, again, like do they acquire someone like a Snapchat at some point?

1:27:54Does that happen? Yeah, I don't know if they'll do. At some point they have to do a bunch of acquisitions, I would imagine. They're already doing some of them. Didn't they buy? by Statsig, and obviously other companies as well. They announced an acquisition of a company called Joy the other day, which was like a finance tool. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So they're adding a bunch of stuff. I mean, other hyperscalers have done this in the past. I wonder, you know, obviously there's always a risk of being too scattered, but it is a large company. And it's also interesting to look at the time frame. A lot of people are viewing OpenAI as a company that started in 2023, essentially, even though ChatGPT launched in 2022.

1:28:41They really feel like the OpenAI story started in 2023. It did not. The company did start in 2015. And it was a frontier research lab for now a decade. And so if you look at the timeline for Google, well, Google search launches in 1998. and then six years later in 2004, they're launching Gmail and that's a great product and it worked out. And so should you give them credit for the time they were wandering in the wilderness as a nonprofit or should you comp them just to when they got product market fit on ChatGPT? Maybe something in between, but there's certainly a lineage of companies that find really strong internet product market fit, scaling, growing, and then doing other projects and not having those, not getting over their skis.

1:29:27Social network operator, what's the real cost if Sora blows up and it never goes anywhere and they light a bunch of GPUs on fire? Well, if it fails, they won't be lighting that many GPUs on fire because nobody will be generating anything. If their hardware project goes south, like, yeah, that's probably multi-billion dollar investment, but a company of their scale at$500 billion with billions coming in from all sorts of different deals can probably take that hit on the chin and keep moving and keep refocusing on the main project. So I don't know how big of a worry it is, but they certainly don't seem to have been massively falling behind in the core product.

1:30:11We're not seeing a huge turn or anything. Doug from Seminole says, OpenAI is tweeting about real interest rates. We get a new Fed share that's whole job is to lower rates to as low as possible. OBBB means no taxes. Money becomes really cheap. You got to invest in America at all costs. Wow. It's so clear. Yeah. People are excited. DJT certainly wants you to invest in America. Yeah. Well, let me tell you about numeralhq.com. Sales tax on autopilot. Spend less than five minutes per month on sales tax compliance. Peter Wildeford has a forecast on how AI infrastructure spending goes over the next four years and what kind of models we'll see as a result.

1:30:53This is a very bullish take on infrastructure that I thought would be interesting to read through. I continue to assess that we are on track for models that can replace a wide variety of human labor, sometimes four to 15 years from now. The big gap. Right in that singularity calculator we have going. He says, currently the world does not have any operational one gigawatt plus data centers. However, it is very likely that we will see a fully operational one gigawatt data center before mid-2026. This likely will be a part of a 45 to 60 gigawatt of total compute across Meta, Microsoft, Amazon, AWS, Anthropic, OpenAI and Oracle, Google and DeepMind, and XAI.

1:31:37So everyone's building huge clusters. They're all investing a ton in CapEx, and it will net out to something between 45 and 60 gigawatts next year. His median expectation is that these largest 1 gigawatt data center facilities will hold between 400 and 500 ,000 NVIDIA Blackwell chips and be used to train 4 to the 27th flops, or 4E27, so 4 times 10 to the 27th flop model sometime before the end of 2027. Such a model would be 10x larger than the largest model today and 100x larger than GPT-4. Each individual 1 gigawatt facility would cost$40 billion to manufacture with$350 billion total industry spend across 2026.

1:32:21Now, the big question is how confident are we on scaling up those models? There's a wide range of takes around how easy it is. Clearly, we saw with GPT 4.5 and LAMA Behemoth that just scaling up, you have to be very careful about what you're scaling up. The actual underlining design of the model matters a lot. By the end of 2027, he expects a fully operational 2-gigawatt facility with total AI compute across all companies reaching 90 gigawatts. That'll be a lot of inference. These two gigawatt facilities would cost$95 to$100 billion each, and total industry spend would reach$500 to$600 billion by the end of 2028.

1:33:04I expect the largest single facility to be a three gigawatt facility holding one million NVIDIA Blackwells Rubin Mix. That's roughly three nuclear reactors worth of energy. Something like that, yeah. costing$150 to$165 billion to build capable of a 1E28 flop training run. A 1E28 flop training run represents a computational effort thousands of times greater than what was used to create GPT-4, allowing the AI to process and learn from vastly more information. Total AI data centers would reach 130 gigawatts combined with$900 billion to a trillion spent by the AI industry over 2028. That is a lot, but that matches up with what everyone's saying.

1:33:48Everyone's marshalling the capital. Everyone's planning to do this. Yeah, I think we want to look to Meta's earnings, next earnings call, October 29th. Zuck is going to feel pressure to say the biggest number. Yep. And we should probably stream that live, do a companion stream. It'll be fine. I mean, I just think that's going to be a big indicator of do they push all the chips in? Literally. By 2029, it starts to get very fuzzy to predict, and his forecasting powers break down, how AI continues to scale, whether we've encountered data-related or other algorithmic bottlenecks, what AI capabilities have already emerged, and how economically valuable those AI capabilities are will be key to whether the economics favor continued scaling.

1:34:35Needless to say, building$150 billion individual data center campuses and spending a trillion on AI infrastructure would get very difficult to sustain financially, let alone to increase dramatically year over year. I feel like the trillion dollar cluster is within reach. I mean, it needs to be probably distributed across all the different companies. But these numbers don't, they're not as scary as I think. When you think about like across the hyperscalers. One trillion doesn't scare you? No, because across the hyperscalers, you have almost$20 trillion of market cap, maybe$10 trillion of market cap.

1:35:10And so you're looking at, okay, so they need to move 10 % of their market cap into this project. That's not 50 % of the market cap. Can they liquidate 10 % of their market cap and put it towards this? It's at current prices and they would have to lever up significantly. No, not significantly, 10%. Like, they would need to take 10 % of their equity, of their money cap. I know, but if you have a massive correction between now and then, it starts to be quite a bit more than 10%. Sure. But, I mean, a trillion dollars spread across the Mag 7, it isn't actually that much. I mean, NVIDIA is a$4 trillion company.

1:35:53They're all a trillion dollars, right? So, I mean, I agree with this conclusion. 2029, it gets crazy. And then the real question is like, okay, what about the$5 trillion training run or the$10 trillion training run? But just purely like is the money there? Like the money feels there. The less clear thing to me is this question of how AI continues to scale, whether we will encounter data-related or other algorithmic bottlenecks. And then the question of you're spending 1 ,000 times more money. Are you actually getting 1 ,000 times better results? It's more likely that it'll be an energy bottleneck, right?

1:36:31Yeah, yeah. That's another good one. Where are you going to get three nuclear reactors worth of energy in two years from now? Yeah, when it takes us 30 years to build them. So, yeah, there's a big, big question there. We got to check in with the nuclear bros. Yeah. Because wasn't it the last time we had Isiah? Yeah. He was saying he was going to have a first reactor in like 12 months or something like that. Yeah, he's working on it. So, uh, I mean, a lot of the, he, he was going kind of mid scale, I think 10 megawatts. And so if you're like, you're talking about him, not just making the first one, but then making 10 ,000 of those, which is a lot, uh, to, to generate this much electricity.

1:37:12Um, we did talk to the nuclear company at Palantir Dev Day, and, uh, he was saying that he's much more encouraged by, uh, bringing, you know, nuclear, like, like the, the original, like GE plants online, the one gigawatt, like the large scale nuclear reactors. Yeah, Doug's point is like energy, when a premium is placed, when there's more demand, there's more capital chasing energy, energy will come out of the woodwork. So there's... Gabe in the chat says Buffett is good for$400 billion. He does have a lot of cash right now, right? He has, I think like$350-ish billion of cash on hand. Can you imagine?

1:37:52He just gets super AGI pills. If Sam does a deal, if Sam can do a deal with Buffett, I mean. I mean, it's the final boss. It's the final boss. There's no one bigger that he hasn't been able to do a deal with. I mean, he even did a deal with Elon back in the day. He's done deals with every single person at various times, pretty much. Yeah. What if Buffett ends up owning all the data centers because they just get super levered up and just go bankrupt and just buys them for pennies? I can see it. I mean, he loves rail. He loves infrastructure. I am compute. I become compute. Yeah. Berkshire just becomes the next hyperscaler.

1:38:33It would be so insane if Buffett's vindicated and just like his model holds forever. I mean, it's pretty much a Lindy. It's held for his whole career. It's pretty Lindy at this point. Can you imagine him? He just winds up owning every power plant in America. It's so crazy. So Berkshire is up 2 % over the past six months. Let's go. So 2.2%, to be clear. Hit that gong. Congratulations, 2 % gain. Is that not a lot of cash? A lot of cash. Ship putting gold. The market cap is just basically three times their cash on hand. Wow. Three times their cash on hand. In other news. Elon names Anthony Armstrong as the new XAI CFO.

1:39:25Strong name. Armstrong, strong arms, the financial markets. That's right. During complicated fundraisers at XAI. The New York Post headlines write themselves. Let me tell you about not XAI, but Fin.ai, the number one AI agent for customer service. Number one in performance benchmarks. World champion. Number one in competitive bake-offs. Number one ranking on G2. Mark in the chat is asking about TPPN merch. This first merch run we did, we didn't sell. We just gave it away somewhat randomly. You've got to make more. We're making more. We actually have a design meeting right after the show today to get into it.

1:40:03So it is coming this next time. We will make it available for the world, and the chat will get first access to it. For sure. Yeah, we'll drop it right at the end of an episode. I got to stop wearing it. I know, you're teasing everyone. Stop teasing. I don't throw on the suit. David Holes, the founder of MidJourney, says, my previous startup, Leap Motion, made the best hand tracking to this day and an amazing open source AR headset, Northstar. Now the tech is getting deployed by Globus. Great name. Oh, I work for Globus Corp. Globus. Oh, what? Oh, I work for the Globus Megacorp. I work for the Globus Center of International Business.

1:40:47Globus is a great name. That's so good. It's like, well, we do business around the globe and in the United States. Globe, U.S. Globus. Globus. Globus. We've got to get the CEO of Globus on. This sounds like a great company. They are deploying these AR headsets to surgical theaters around the world. Globus? I mean, Globus is an$8 billion company, undervalued just on the value of the trademark alone. Globus. Great hit. Let's hear it for Globus. Huge Globus fans here. This is a very cool tech. It makes a ton of sense in a medical setting. Obviously, you're not wearing the headset for fun all day.

1:41:29It's a professional environment. There's always been enterprise applications here. And of course, it's a medical device, and it's adding a ton of value to a high paid doctor's routine. You can probably put the best, most cutting edge technology in there. If it's 10K, it's probably cheaper than the, you know, the chair that you sit on in a medical setting. So congrats to David Holes for being on an absolute run. The Leap Motion story is fascinating. I dug into it a little bit. It seemed like they were about to sell the company to Apple and then Apple had printed like welcome letters to everyone on the Leap Motion team.

1:42:06And then something happened. The deal fell through at the last minute. David was like, you know, in and out, had a really rough run with venture capitalists, then went back to mid-journey. Didn't raise the dime. He loved to see it. Bootstrap founder. And him and Mark Andreessen were going back and forth. Did you see that yesterday? No, I missed it. So David Holtz posted something to the effect of like, hey, any other bootstrap founders in SF? To call Mid Journey a bootstrap company. I mean, it is a bootstrap company. They haven't raised venture. But it's like the biggest company ever. Oh, I did see this.

1:42:39And Mark's like, me, I bootstrapped A16Z. Like I own the GP. Two hundreds of millions of revenues. Love to see it. Yeah. I didn't see this yesterday either, but the US is taking a 10 % stake in Trilogy Metals. I haven't heard of this company. It was a$480 million Canadian dollar market cap company. Yesterday, it is now$1.63 billion Canadian dollars. Well, metal, so that's exciting. How many? I don't know what the exchange rate is probably pretty rough. I have no idea. Well, let me tell you about Adio, customer relationship magic. Adio is the AI native CRM that builds, scales, and grows your company to the next level.

1:43:21Next level CRM. Tim Cook is likely to step down as Apple's CEO. According to Bloomberg, John Ternus, who I'm dying to have on the show, got to make it happen, get to him before he becomes CEO, potentially. Apple's senior vice president of hardware engineering is expected to take over. Interesting because you don't see him in all the keynotes. He's not the biggest face, but he's clearly doing something right at Apple. And for all the discussion over, do they get AI right or whatever, the hardware is good. nominative determinism turn us turn us around turn us around okay i see what you're doing there yeah like it bloomberg notes that apple will now likely johnny apple seed tim cooked we know this tim cooked i saw a graphic of like all the different products that that tim cook has like six you know overseen yep and it's actually remarkable i think he will be while he certainly isn't being celebrated in the AI era, he will be celebrated in the fullness of time.

1:44:30Yeah. And while I think he's dramatically underpaid, I hope that the history books will remember his name for just exceptional execution on Steve's vision, Steve's visible vision. Totally. Yeah. Well, whatever your view on Apple, whether you're long or short, get on public.com. Investing for those that take it seriously. They got multi-asset investing, industry-leading yields. They're trusted by millions. I have some hot news. And they just launched direct indexing, which is very cool, specifically because it allows you to, you know, if you have outperformance with one stock, underperformance with another, you can actually recognize those losses.

1:45:16Oh, interesting. And so it can be more tax efficient way to get exposure to a broad swath of companies. Interesting. In one go. Cool. I have a bit of cognitive dissonance about Apple. On the one hand, apparently they have this like belief or something that Bloomberg was reporting that they don't believe like chatbots are going to be a dominant form factor. Like they've really leaned back in terms of chatbots. Siri has kind of been slow. I've been trying to use Apple intelligence to query ChatGPT and it's still like it's I have to click a button every time It's very like it doesn't seem like they're really moving quickly And it's been like years now since ChatGPT has come out and I would have liked a deeper integration on day one They could have bought something they could have trained their own model Like there are so many companies that have been able to catch up It doesn't feel like it's complete rocket science the narrative of like the foundation model commoditizing, even if they have something that's not at GPT-5 or CLAWD 4.5 Sonnet or even Gemini 2.5 level, it would still be better and it would improve my experience, but they've really leaned back on that.

1:46:25So that's a really, really clear bear case for they're not winning AI. And then at the same time, whenever we talk about hardware and the next devices, we just keep coming back to, well, not only is the hardware extremely good and sticky and, you know, just like the best devices and the best supply chain. And Tim Cook's done a fantastic job of managing the tariff battles and whatnot. But they also have iMessage, which feels like an incredibly powerful social network that is very, very hard to rip people out of. Social graph. Social graph. And so when we demo smart glasses or anything else. Somebody was posting yesterday, Apple better start moving faster.

1:47:08And it was in reference to ChatGPT's like booking.com integrations. Yeah. And it was fairly, you know, it was getting quite a lot of engagement. But I was surprised by that considering that Apple's never been able to really directly tax like retail. Yeah. They don't get a percentage of every dollar that's spent on Meta. Well, they do take a cut of Booking.com in the sense that Booking pays Google, Google pays Apple. Yeah, but it's way less. That revenue is not necessarily directly threatened because if Google has more, you know, they're happy to keep paying their version of the Apple tax. But again, it's not like Apple is getting billions of dollars a year from Amazon and they would suddenly not be getting that if ChatGPT starts dominating in retail.

1:47:59Yeah, yeah. Maybe what the move internally or the mood internally is at Apple is something like they don't see AI or LLMs or chatbots as disruptive to Apple's hardware plans. They think that even in a post-AGI world, people will still be carrying iPhones. And so they can just sit and wait until they get some foundation lab to come to them and say, we're going to pay you$10 billion a year to be the default. and they're just like yeah we'll just wait and you you come to us today but we're not we're not doing the deal until and so like it's it's going to be uncomfortable for customers until someone ponies up yeah it still feels hard for me to imagine a world where siri is just replaced by another brand like what siri does functionally in terms of being an assistant layer on top of the hardware device, it feels very unbelievable to me that Apple would say, like, we're going to let this other assistant directly integrate throughout the entire device.

1:49:06Like, that feels like a big step. It does. Because the phone, in many ways, already was operating as, like, an assistant, right? It's, like, the center of your world. It can do anything you want to do in your digital life on your behalf. It's sort of, um, and so giving up that, uh, giving that up feels major. Um, but yeah, I think we have to see more announcements out of Apple this year on this front. I know based on the last, uh, they still have longer time horizons internally around their like AI turnaround, right? They're not saying we're fixing this this year. It's very much like we're fixing this over the next 24 months.

1:49:49And again, I still stand by Apple and believe that the competitive threats, OpenAI just doesn't feel like a legitimate hardware threat today. No, not at all. Because of the lock-in around the Apple ecosystem. And it does feel like Apple might be looking at AI more as a profit pool. and once that profit pool gets really big, then they're going to want to go after it and they will have a ton of leverage at that moment and so it'll be fine. But just chat interactions are not generating tens of billions of dollars in profit yet. But Google search is. And so Apple says, hey, we got to go get a cut of Google search.

1:50:34They did and they've been very successful there. Once the profit pool of chat interfaces becomes really big, Apple will probably say, hey, we got to get a cut of that. And maybe at that point, we will invest, but we understand the economics and we're not supply constrained on data centers. And so we don't have to pay a high margin. We can do Apple Silicon chips for our inference or something, our own custom model. There's a million different ways that they can get their fair-ish share of that market when the time is right, because they will still have the leverage and they don't see that their leverage is decreasing because people are not churning from iPhones based on the lack of chat GPT integration or the lack of LLM integration, even though it's like a pretty crazy feature to be missing in 2025.

1:51:21It just still hasn't really hurt them. I bought a new iPhone. I didn't switch. I'm still waiting for my iPhone that I ordered. I'm waiting for my iPhone that I ordered weeks before John just walked into a store and bought an iPhone off the shelf. Skill issue. Skill issue. Unbelievable. The iPhone was delivered. Here I am thinking like, wow, there is so much demand for Apple, the new iPhone, that they can't deliver me at one. I mean, to be clear, like there was only one in stock that I was able to purchase. And it just happened to be a model that I was happy with. But I didn't get to pick a color or anything like that.

1:51:58I was just like, yeah, just give me what you have. Anyway, speaking of iPhone apps, open up your 8 Sleep app and tell me how you slept last night. because you had a tummy ache from lack of alcohol consumption. I was boozing it up with the white wine at the luxurious event, and I slept for seven hours and got an 84. I did pretty well. I slept for five hours 56. Five hours? Wow. Oh, 56 minutes. Okay, that's close to six hours, yeah. And my eight sleeve is very concerned about my health. Oh, no. Well, did you get over 100? I got a 75. And you know what you got to do, Jordan. I know what I got to do.

1:52:40Let's go. I win. Credit where credit's due. I've been on the run. I've been doing very well recently. Anyway, Mick Franchisee shares, I remember this Happy Meal promo back in 1991 for Earth Day. You could ask for a free tree at McDonald's, no purchase necessary, and they would give you a sapling, I guess. Pretty cool to see. That is so big. And these McTrees, over three days later, 30 years later, have grown into behemoths. And so after 50 years, this man's family is moving out of his childhood home. In the 90s, McDonald's gave out pine seedlings for Earth Days. And look at this tree. It's now 30 years old.

1:53:21What a beautiful tree. My happiest childhood memory with McDonald's, they had a deal with Sugar Bowl. that if you bought anything at McDonald's and you brought the receipt to Sugar Bowl, you could get a$5 lift ticket. Okay. And I was doing that all day. I mean, that was like the greatest trade of all time. You get like a McFlurry. This was a big thing. And then you get a$5 lift ticket. You used to be able to take a Coca-Cola and go to - You were probably like 30 at that point. You used to be able to take a Coca-Cola can and go to Six Flags for cheap. There were a bunch of these like cross promotional like deals that were going on.

1:53:56I think this is a great merch idea. I think some startups should do this. If you're super not AGI-pilled, give away a tree sapling and be like, yeah, this tree is still going to be around. It's not going to get paper clipped. I'm long humanity. Keep thinking, folks. This also reminds me of our idea for merch, the bonsai tree. I really like the idea of sending everyone a bonsai tree to remind them that progress is measured in decades and you should never stop working. Keep grinding. Anyway, what else is going on? do we ever recover this? This is something that's probably worth mentioning. Jay Boll says, here's the thing with today's OpenAI pump.

1:54:36Elon is B-U-T-T-H-U-R-T. He hates Sam. Sam is getting all the attention these days and nobody cares about Elon anymore. I fully expect the mother of all pumps from Elon sooner than later because he's a narcissist and no way he doesn't do it. What a funny way to frame what happens in the capital markets. It's like, oh, yeah, like they're going to do a pump because there's spite or something. Spite pump. Spite pump. What about just like building something that delivers value? And Tesla's at an all-time high right now. I mean, the Roadster. The Roadster video dropped yesterday over the weekend. You're going to get that, aren't you?

1:55:13I'm 100 % going to get one. I'm so excited. Roadster. It's actually having the aesthetics of a supercar, but having like great self-driving. Yeah. that's a recipe for a hit. Wait, we have the perfect guest to talk about the Tesla Roadster. We have the, is it the CEO of DuPont Registry? I corrected Tesla's not at an all-time high last year, but getting close, getting close. Well, we have our next guest in the restroom waiting room. I am absolutely pumped for this. Oh, look at this. What's happening? Fantastic background. Great, great setup. Thank you for having me. How are you doing? We couldn't have said yes faster to having you on the show.

1:55:53So I think I'm a daily active user. 100 % of the registry. Of the products. And yeah, super excited to get the update from you. Thank you for having me, guys. Yes, please kick us off with an introduction on yourself and actually describe the company for anyone who might not know. Yeah, sure. So I joined the company two years ago, as you will hear from my accent. I'm not from Paris, Texas. I was born and raised in France. I came to the U.S. 16 years ago. started my career in the luxury and tech world with Louis Vuitton and moved two years ago to lead DuPont Registry Group. We're going through a major transformation.

1:56:36We're disrupting the luxury automotive industry. The group has been building for the past 40 years amazing trust towards the audience of car enthusiasts and car collectors. Today, we're the only one place where any car collector can find the product of their passion. And we're transforming the industry. We're building a brand new tech platform to have a far ecosystem of dealership and clients, a way for them to transact online. We're very excited about it. The market opportunity is huge and the group is moving in the right direction. What's the shape of the business now? and then how much do you want to move to online platforms?

1:57:20I want one-click checkout. Yeah, like how far does this go? I want one-click checkout too, and this is what we are working towards. That's great. So the group has been, the foundation of the group is, again, 40 years of legacy and trust. We have today amazing brand within our portfolio, events that are gathering all the enthusiasts and car collectors, some of them the most affluent car collectors in the world. And we want to use that foundation and the data that we've been accumulated for years to build really an omnichannel tech platform that will allow anyone, when they see a product and a car that they want, to be able to purchase it online and get delivered at their home.

1:58:04This is what we're building on right now. And the recent investors that we announced today that brings capital to the company We're going to use that capital to build that tech platform. So expect a lot of new changes in the next few years.

1:58:26You mentioned events, more seamless transactions. That all makes sense. Are you guys planning anything on the auction side or you feel like that is well served by the industry today? No, no, no. It's definitely something we have in mind. And it's part also of where I came from in the luxury world. It's all about Omnichannel and being taking care of our clients wherever they want to buy and whenever they want to buy. So if you look today in the car space, the auction piece is quite important. and we are launching in a few weeks our own Dupont Registry Live auction platform that will support our audience and allow us and our dealers to sell their cars.

1:59:12It's going to be a disruptive one. You will see a couple of announcements are coming in the next few weeks. How do you think about defining the tone, the vibe around what type of cars make it onto the platform? It feels like, you know, dollars a dollar, you could have every car on there, but you have to define the brand somehow. So how do you think about what is an appropriate car to work with? And how do you let someone down if they bring something that's just not quite there, a little bit too not special enough? To me, we don't let anyone down because at the core of our audience, there is passion.

1:59:54Sure. So whether you're talking about, and we had someone the other day from Eastern Europe that rebuilt the Dacia from his father. There was a strong passion about that Dacia. And we actually talked about it. And with Petrolicious, one of our brands, we did a movie about this guy. So to me, it's all about that passion component. Of course, for the past 40 years, we've been the leading marketplace. And our positioning is luxury and high-end luxury. And we want to continue to go there. but my job is not to say no to my clients it's to be able to welcome them in our ecosystem and serve them and make sure that they evolve with us throughout their collector's journey Give us a high level view of the current state of the automotive industry we obviously are car enthusiasts ourselves but cover tech about a thousand times more closely than the automotive world but seems like we're at a very interesting time right now you have pressure on the Chinese market You have trade wars.

2:00:55You have back and forth on electrification. Yeah, electrification that enthusiasts have certainly not, you know, overall not been huge fans of. You've also seen, you know, the massive depreciation on that front. If you're an automotive enthusiast, nobody wants to buy a car that might look pretty and drive well. But if it's going to depreciate 40 % in the first year, it's just not, you're never going to really get that enthusiast love. So I'm curious, what kind of trends are you tracking most closely and kind of new activity over the next 12 months? Yeah, it's a very good question. So all you mentioned does not really affect us today.

2:01:38we're in the used cars luxury space and we're in the business of our clients are looking for something they want not something they need so from a pure purchase funnel standpoint they're not really affected today by tariffs and otherwise you will see in the next few weeks we're partnering with Boston Consulting Group and we're going to release a luxury car market report we've seen first few things in that in that report we're talking about 100 billion dollar markets so it's going to be a uh it's quite interesting there is a huge market opportunity not at all digital today what's interesting too is that we see that electrification is not there there is nothing if you're looking at the luxury car market people are looking for performance they're looking for fun they're not looking at their daily driver so they will look more for that car behind me a 2001 ferrari 550 maranello than an electric car yeah yeah the other the The other thing I think is worth calling out, part of your guys' opportunities, is like I have bought, I've purchased a number of cars sight unseen online.

2:02:47And maybe that's just because I was born in the, you know, I was born in 1995. I grew up purchasing everything on the Internet. I have no problem seeing a video of a car. I might get a remote PPI done on it to have that confidence. But I continuously am happy to purchase cars out of state, you know, wherever. I don't need to see them. I've done that, I think, at least three or four times at this point. And I expect to do that many more times in my life. Do you think that that is part of your guys' opportunity and that the new generation of car owners and enthusiasts are just willing? Again, it doesn't matter if the spec you want is out of state.

2:03:26Great. I have no problem kind of purchasing. Yeah, it's actually very interesting. Today, we see that about 99 % of the purchase decision starts online. It takes a couple of months for anyone to decide which cars they want to buy. And there is a lot of online research. Yet, less than 1 % of those transactions are happening online. So there is a lot of potential to disrupt the market and disrupt the industry. When you're talking about buying a car sight unseen, and this is the power of our brand and our ecosystem. We have the trust from millions of people that have been looking at our brand and coming to our brand for the past 40 years.

2:04:05And they trust the brand to show them the right product with the right condition and be transparent about the product. And this is what we're offering at the national audience for the US. You'll be able to buy a car from California, get it delivered in New York. And behind the scene, we will be the intermediates to facilitate that transaction and make sure that you trust the seller and the buyer and trust both parties. How do you think about the next generation getting into cars? What's different about Gen Z or millennial car collectors? Are they going less far back into historical or retro cars?

2:04:46Or does every generation just love the car that they had on the poster in their bedroom forever, and you're kind of locked in a time capsule? Or is there something unique and different about the millennial generation or the Gen Z generation as opposed to the Gen Xers or the boomers? I think there is something unique is that they are discovering the luxury car market through experiences and community. And that's what we are doing at the group. We're organizing many events every year to build that community and to continue fostering the dream within the community. From a purchase standpoint, as any other car enthusiast, you will start with the car that you had as a poster in your bedroom when you were 14.

2:05:34And that will be your first car. But then you're going to evolve throughout your collection. The good thing is that today we're seeing a transfer of wealth between generations. The passion is also transferring. So we're actually seeing that our audience is getting younger. And definitely, to your point, the audience is ready. and they're used to buy those products online and luxury products online. And this is where we're going to offer them that ability. How are you thinking about marketing and content production? I engage with DuPont Registry on X, actually. I see every new auction and there's a lot of facts and interesting details in there.

2:06:09It's very interesting to me. But there's so much that you can do with cars when you're marketing a platform because the cars themselves are interesting. Like that car behind you, I could watch a 20 minute video about it. It's fascinating. I probably have by other creators. How are you thinking about partnering with creators, either sponsoring content or bringing people in-house, agencies? How do you think about the correct shape for just raising the awareness of DuPont? It's all about stories to me. We need to tell stories between a driver and his cars. That's what we're doing with one of our brand, Petrolicious.

2:06:46Every Friday, we have a new movie about a car story. Cool. This is what we want to do. We want to make sure that we tell the story of the enthusiast community. We tell the story of the car collectors and how they build their collection from the first purchase until their latest investment. And this is really how we're today, how we're targeting our content strategies, really focusing on that. Very cool. Jordan, anything else? Amazing. We'll send you some posts after this, but we've featured DuPont Registry. Thousands of times. Thousands of times in our early episodes. It was a core part of the content.

2:07:23Please, like never stop posting on X. It is the best little drip feed. It just sprinkles itself in with all the other tech news. And I see it and I love it. And I usually tag a friend and I say, you should get this car. Well, yeah, I can. I'm very excited you guys have. Again, it's just a daily active user. I'm very happy that you guys will have more investment. and let us know if we can help you recruit anybody in on the technical side. Did you share the terms of the deal, how much was raised, anything like that? Do you have any numbers to share for us? No, unfortunately, we don't disclose financial numbers.

2:07:58What I can tell you is Francois is one of the top collectors in the world as well as very well-known race car drivers. He brings a lot of validation of our strategy. is a big tech guy and he loves tech as well. He sees what we're building from a tech and AI standpoint with the data we have and we're very happy that he's on board with us. But one number, you guys reached unicorn status. That's correct, right? Yes. Yes, there we go. Hit that gong, John. Congratulations. There we go. You'll appreciate this. We're waiting for the right car to put this on. So this just came in the mail. Maybe it's the 599.

2:08:45Yeah, yeah. Well, thank you for not for sale. No. Yeah. Another one. They're rare these days. Awesome. Thank you so much for coming on and congratulations on the milestone. We appreciate it. We'll talk soon. Cheers. Bye. And if you're looking for a luxury watch to go with your luxury car, you know where to go. Get bezel.com. Your bezel concierge is now available to source you any watch on the planet. Seriously, any watch. um add cars bezel tyler what do you think about this gpt image one mini post uh angel is saying they didn't fix consistency apparently the prompt was remove all the ingredients from the burger and keep only the top and bottom buns leave a gap between them keep keeping the same spacing as if the fillings were still inside why are you laughing sorry taylor with a deep cut he says dupont registry is going to love my nissan morano cross cabrio play let's hit the gong this is most underrated car it's so good uh i think this is what other convertible suv two-door are you getting a range rover evoke we really botched it not there's one for sale right now with almost a hundred thousand they're available it's for ten thousand dollars and it's honestly a great production car.

2:10:00You lean out the side, take some video of the other cars. It's a great production vehicle. It's the most wild car. It's a V6. Give it up for V6s. That's not bad. I'm a four-cylinder. But Tyler, did you see this post about the remove the toppings from the burger? What do you think is going on here? Does this push your AGI timeline out or pull it in? What's going on here? I think just from this, like I think it's we can probably just assume that like nano banana is there's some kind of like architecture difference sure where it's not just like doing diffusion on the entire image yeah I mean it seems like it might be it might have like tool use and I feel like tool use has got to come to uh image generation soon to just be like for this prompt you actually just need to cut one half of the image out and cut the other half and just stitch them together using basically like Figma or something.

2:10:55Like a basic lasso tool is like what you need. So just give the AI image generator that instead of trying to re-render the entire image. Yeah, and like maybe that like kind of tool use was only in the training step and it's like kind of been distilled into the weight somehow. Yeah. But it does seem like there's some, it's like, it looks like it's just like segmenting something out. Yeah. And then it just does kind of in-painting on that part and then it just gives you the new image where GPT is like very clearly, it's like you're it's doing the whole image yeah yeah exactly yeah sean says vision reasoning is far from a solved issue uh i'm i'm very excited to see where where that goes it feels like tool use and reasoning all that's coming to image but just uh just slowly it's gonna roll out slowly um i i demoed one uh image generator project that was clearly cutting out pieces of the image because the grain was even the same and it wasn't re-rendering the face and so you could say make this a giga chat or a bodybuilder and it would add the muscles but you'd look at you'd zoom in in the face and it'd be pixel perfect and it's like that's not re-rendered like i can just tell um anyway uh grok is still on a tear on uh on open router one trillion tokens every three hours that's a lot of plaques um they're doing well we already dug into the grok stuff uh that's fun uh and uh ksa says the dumbest person you know is currently being told you're absolutely right by chat gpt this is a repost someone else posted this we talked about this uh somebody just found a banger and just re re uh i told you that yesterday you said you did you said i finally over hits and suddenly i'm craving pumpkin everything binge watching horror movies and planning the ultimate costume who's with me on turning this month into pure spooky magic i said you're absolutely right john yeah uh compound 248 says if i am sundar pachai i will bury all competing foundational models in negative gross margin tokens for eternity i will never take my foot off the price and gas to merely compete i will force you to dilute your equity into oblivion sam will drown in my tsunami of cogs so very well written piece the dilution is real dilution seems real uh certainly yeah it's interesting i talked to somebody a long time ago who was like there was a moment at maybe AWS or maybe GCP or one of them where there was the option to to get in a price war and they chose not to and so all of the hyperscalers all of the clouds have like the soda companies right if you if they got in a price war it would suck all the profits out of the industry for sure there's that there's also just uh the way I heard it described to me was uh like if you're a CFO you're just kind of like but I want but I want 30 margins like that's my goal.

2:13:44So like, why would I do, why would I do low margins when my goal is 30 % margins? And so it's almost just like kind of hard coded into the fabric of these financial institutions or the finance functions at the large companies is that it's like, yeah, there's like this world where we get into this price war and there's risk, like maybe we could win, but we could also just continue to get 30 % margins. So I don't know if this will play out this way, maybe, maybe on the, on the API side. But Tyler, have you noticed any real price fight going on in the foundation model layers? They're all pretty price competitive, right, on a per million token basis, right?

2:14:21Yeah, they're all pretty close. I would say maybe Anthropic is a little bit more expensive. More expensive. But it's supposed to be a better model. Yeah. And it's like, if you look back, it's like, oh, the models are staying the same price. But it's just because you keep updating to the new model. Like if you're using GPT 3.5 Turbo, it's like obviously super, super cheap now compared to what it was. So there's something there, but I don't know. Well, Barry Weiss dropped a letter to all CBS News employees. And there's some debate in the comments as to whether or not this was AI generated. Really?

2:14:58What was the call out? There are M dashes, but that's it. And so I'll read it. And I think she wrote it herself. But she says, dear colleagues, I am thrilled and humbled to be writing you as the new editor-in-chief of CBS News. Growing up, CBS was a deep family tradition. Whenever I hear that tick, tick, tick or trumpet fanfare, it sends me right back to our den in Pittsburgh. The opportunity to build on that legacy with you, hyphen, and to renew it in an era that so desperately needs it, hyphen, is an extraordinary privilege. Right now, I imagine you all have some questions. I do, too. My goal in the coming weeks, days, and weeks is to get to know you.

2:15:34I want to hear from you about what's working, what isn't, and your thoughts on how we can make CBS News the most trusted news organization in America and the world. I'll approach it the way any reporter would, hyphen, with an open mind, a fresh notebook, and an urgent deadline. She drops the Oxford comma. This feels extremely human-written to me. And, of course, it should because she's been a writer for a decade, way before LLMs were a thing. So why would she lose that ability to do that? She has a couple. She has 10 points that she defines journalism around. It reports on the world as it actually is.

2:16:06It's fair, fearless, and factual. You can say journalism. Journalism uses all the tools of the digital area. Journalism that understands the best way to serve America is to endeavor to present the public with facts first and foremost. I look forward to meeting many of you in the days ahead and listening and learning to you. I am profoundly honored to join you, M-Dash. And I can't wait to get started with gratitude and excitement, Barry. That seems very well-written. I don't know. Gold is up at$4 ,000 for the first time ever. It's a record run for futures. Comes amid concerns about the economy's outlook.

2:16:47Gold has been on such a run since 2000. A little bit of a sell-off post-GFC, but has been on an absolute tear, going from$2 ,000 per troy ounce to over$4 ,000 in just a few years. Gold soared to 4 ,000 a troy ounce for the first time, signaling an investor rush into alternative assets at a time of concern about the outlook for the U.S. economy. The price of precious metals has surged this year more than it did during some of America's biggest crises, raising more than 50%. Futures run up in 2025 has outpaced rallies during the pandemic and the 2007-2009 recession, not since the inflationary shock of 1979 has gold catapulted so much higher in a year.

2:17:32I think I look at the gold chart and I think, I'm in danger. The U.S. dollar is in danger. Yep. Bitcoin was at an all-time high yesterday, too. Everyone is flying to other assets, whether it's AI stocks, energy, Bitcoin, gold. Everyone wants something else. But what a run for gold. We have our next guest in the restream waiting room. We have Rami from EvenUp. Let's bring him on in. What's happening? Welcome to the show. Hey guys, how's it going? It's great to see you. We're doing great. We got our gong ready for you. Yes, introduce yourself, the company, and any of the news today. My name is Rami.

2:18:21I'm the CEO and co-founder of EvenUp. We are happy to announce our$150 million Series E, led by Bessemer. There we go. Congratulations. There we go. Yeah, breakdown, the company history, yeah, how you got into the category. Yeah, we started even up about five years ago. This is before legal tech or generative AI was all that interesting. And the premise was to ultimately even up the playing field for personal injury victims in the US. So every year there's about 20 million injury victims where often these cases take a lot longer than they need to to settle or settle for a small fraction of what they're worth.

2:19:02And so our goal is to even up that distribution by helping ultimately their attorneys, so it's a B2B startup, we're helping them across the whole life cycle of their injury cases. Think of it as doing the heavy work for these attorneys for them at what I call superhuman quality. We're helping them settle their cases faster, helping them settle their cases for larger amounts and removing a lot of the manual work as we go through a lot of these workflows for these attorneys and their staff. How are you guys already running up against the oppositions or the defenses AI themselves? How is the battle evolving?

2:19:41Yeah, we don't really see too much of that. The crazy thing is, this is our fourth round of financing in the last two years. Wow. And we're on this really rapid growth trajectory where we see about 10 ,000 cases a week. But when you think about just the TAM here on 20 million cases, we're about 1 % penetrated today. So in a way, even though it's a big number, it's still really early days in our space. So we haven't seen any of that come through. What we have seen is ultimately being able to change some of the operations of these law firms for the better. So one of our firms has scaled revenue by about 70 % year on year on a base of over$100 million of revenue without adding headcount.

2:20:23Another one of our firms have used one of our products in mediation in real time where they turned a$50 ,000 offer into a multimillion dollar offer. So it's kind of crazy to see the impact we've been able to have, but it's still early days. Is plaintiff screening a different business? So, yes. Not fully. The way you can think of this is the way we help is, you know, imagine somebody gets injured. They would typically call an injury attorney. They would sign up. They see a billboard. They see a billboard. And the billboard says, injured, call this number. They call that number and they describe their injury.

2:20:56And then someone needs to qualify that. And it's probably not the most highest paid lawyer. And it feels like those intake forms could be processed by AI. But is that something you're looking at doing? Yes, that's really interesting. So we don't do the intake call themselves. But as soon as the intake call is done, the transcript of those calls is something that we would analyze. Sure. to say, hey, law firm, you need to prioritize this case, or this might be a case you want to draw. We don't do the signing up of the case, but as soon as there's any information, whether it's audio or document-based info in these cases, we read that, we scan it, and we ultimately make decisions off of that with the attorney hand in hand.

2:21:33How are hallucinations and how are you thinking about like lawyer in the loop. Jordy was talking about this. There was some case about a consulting group that turned over an analysis to a city and had to give them a huge refund. Yeah, it was Deloitte basically got caught delivering a study that was just inventing like judgments that no judge had actually. Yeah, it wasn't grounded in like the ground truth of case law. And I imagine that like, I mean, the stakes are pretty high. The model just had a really great imagination. But also, I mean, you could wind up in a situation where like your firm is like forever tainted by a certain judge.

2:22:15And the judge is like, I remember what you did. That was really sloppy. I imagine that your clients and your customers care deeply about that. Like what are the strategies for avoiding those types of situations? You both brought up really great points here. And it's a really funny thing because folks are always like a generative AI and legal tech are all shoe-ins for each other. but folks generally tend to forget accuracy really matters in these cases. You can't be 90 % of the way there in a legal letter. That's how you get this part. That's how you get some of those headlines that you guys just mentioned.

2:22:48The way we think about this internally is you need to have done a lot of cases because every basis point of accuracy matters. It's another way of thinking about it. We do a number of different legal workflows for these attorneys, but if you think of one letter called the demand letter, That's one of the documents to repair for our firms. The quality from this and us being able to repair this two years ago versus today was very different. When we started, keep in mind this is before GPT-3 and the big, all the craziness around AI two years ago, we had to have a human in the loop to QA these letters.

2:23:22Yep. And if you think about the inputs in these cases, and we're at a point now where we're going to be some millions of pages of medical records, medical bills, police reports, raw underlying documents, we've had to fine tune these models, one, to be able to get a much higher level of accuracy than what you typically see off the shelf. And so what's a simple example of this is if you think of something as intuitive as, hey, list me all the medical visits that a plaintiff has seen in a case. If you just go into any of your models today that are publicly available, ask it to do it for you, you'll see the accuracy is just not good enough.

2:23:59And so this is where we have to change our own data service model just to do something as intuitive as be able to pull out a date. When you look at these case files, you get to see timestamp dates, signature dates, date of birth. Sure. There's so many different dates. It gets pretty complicated with even just one piece of extractions. And that's how we had to build this with time. You had to do a lot of, you had to get your reps in to get the quality where it needed to be. How are you growing the business? Are you running billboard ads? If you're an injury attorney, call this number. Or are you doing steak dinners?

2:24:31You should really do that on the 101. That would be great. Or are there like legal tech conferences? What does the top of funnel look like for you? This is the crazy thing as well about our space. This is such a massive space that folks just don't necessarily know too much about. But when you mention those billboards, and you folks are saying this in just, but when you see one of these firms has a thousand billboards in California, I don't know any SaaS business that has a thousand billboards. You know what I mean? Like massive marketing machines and they're, based on our math, there's around 300 ,000 of these injury attorneys and about 20 million cases.

2:25:10And they're all over the place, right? One of our largest customers, as an example, is in Alabama. You would have never thought it would be in Alabama. We have massive firms in California, massive firms on the East Coast. And it really follows population. Wherever there are people, there's going to be injuries because it can mean anything from a motor vehicle accident to a dog bite case, even police brutality cases. There's many different ways folks get injured. And so as long as there's people, there's going to be personal injury attorneys, as long as there's personal injury attorneys, they're all B2C.

2:25:38They're all kind of like they want to be found. And so if you think about our go-to-market approach, we have a over 100-person go-to-market team that's territory-based. So this is where we would go local in LA, in SF, wherever it might be to be able to get these folks. And that's where a lot of this is outbound as opposed to in. Did you ever think about the Atrium, Clear Spire model of like bolting an actual law firm onto your software company? You have an LLC bolted to the C Corp with an MSA. That was a model that's been tried a few times. I think people are trying it again. But did it ever occur to you to try and try your own cases, team up with a lawyer, build a firm?

2:26:16Yeah, for us, the way at least I see this space evolving is I see this as very much a winner take most. And even though we're in vertical SaaS here, there's like elements of Uber and Lyft that feel true to our space where the first startup that gets 10 % of LA will win LA. Because every time you see these cases, the better this whole system gets. I'll just elaborate on that a little bit more. And that should hopefully explain why we're doing this in a very B2B fashion. But the one thing you folks should know is even though there's 20 million cases, 99 % of them are settled privately. and so there's a real wide gap in performance in terms of how long these cases take to settle and how much they settle for and generative ai alone can't solve that problem you need to be able to see a lot of cases for you to be able to do that because most of this data is sitting in the inbox of a very fragmented industry and so for us the goal is how do we expand or go to market as quickly as we can to be able to go from one percent to ten percent to thirty percent market share and if you want to think about it as a key metric, more cases we see the better the system ultimately gets.

2:27:21And if we're just very focused on, I mean, we will never do this, but like competing against our own customers, you're only going to get a ton of the cases that are out there. Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. Do you think that legal AI is under-hyped as a category? Obviously, there's a ton of funding flowing in, but there's not, you know, on the code generation side, it's sufficiently hyped, right? Every researcher at every company is talking about the leverage they're getting. Every startup founder is talking about the leverage they're getting. Every CTO is talking about the leverage they're getting.

2:27:52Public company CEOs. Legal is like, you know, just happens. You know, we certainly have plenty of lawyers in tech, but they're not, you know, they just don't tend to be in a position where they can talk about stuff in the way that regular software engineers can. So it feels like you could be seeing the same type of revolution happening, but it just would be much get much, much less coverage. No, for sure. I think that there's obviously been when we started even up a couple of years ago, you folks can imagine it's like legal tech sucks. AI sucks. Personal injury sucks. Like my background is I used to work at Waymo and I used to work as like a tech investor before that.

2:28:33And so it's definitely a lot, there's a lot more attention today in legal tech than there's ever been before. Is it, again, is it overblown or not? I think in the end of the day, the thing that makes our space so different when we're selling to these injury attorneys, the thing you folks should know is it's a very fragmented, highly competitive, and most importantly, commission-only industry. These folks make a percentage of the value of the cases that they settle. So unlike other parts of, you know, AI or legal, there's no experimental ARR, right? These are not like big firms where they can afford to spend a million dollars on something.

2:29:06And because of how competitive it is, you better believe this thing can actually help their case operations. Otherwise, they'll turn. They don't have the luxury of being able to have big IT budgets, et cetera. And so in that sense, if you think about our 2 ,000 customers, it wouldn't be around if they're not seeing real demonstrable ROI in terms of increasing case outcomes or reducing the duration of these cases. And in that sense, I do think it is, call it, it's still early days. And if you think about the mission of the business, it's not, I think it's just going to be, it's inevitable in terms of those 20 million cases being able to be settled, not again all over the place, but as fast as they can for the fair amount.

2:29:43And so in that sense, when we're just 1 % penetrated, it's not overhyped, at least in my mind. It's like clear ROI. Well, yeah, and there's that customer alignment where they're incentivized to adopt as much AI as they possibly can because they're not billing hourly, right? They're just getting paid when these cases settled versus, you know, a traditional law firm. If something they used to be able to bill 10 hours for suddenly takes 30 minutes and they had a lot of margin in that 10 hours, there's not the same incentive to adopt as what you're seeing. You nailed it. And the other thing that's also different about this wave, and it's funny because I was having a conversation with one of our customers about this.

2:30:28some of these folks are still on-prem, but they're one of our biggest customers. And so when you go to a law firm and you're like, hey, you've got to be on the cloud, they're not going to understand what you really mean. When you're going to these law firms and you're like, here's a legal letter, it was drafted instantly, you can evaluate the quality of this thing relative to your own staff because you're a subject matter expert. You know what this legal letter does. And that's what allowed the space to adopt a lot quicker than anything that we've seen before in legal tech. and again I think you really pinpointed where they really genuinely care a lot about being faster, settling quicker spending less time on review because anything that they save they get to keep right as their own margins.

2:31:10Totally. One of my first jobs ever was doing paper filing at a law firm as an intern. I was like a kid. You were a paper boy then? You're kind of a paper boy now. You're still a paper enthusiast. I hadn't put it together until I actually just had this conversation and reflected on like how crazy that was that, I mean, I guess the cloud like barely existed then, but yeah, it was paper back then. It was wild. I mean, computers were around, but like my job was sort of like, yeah, in inventorying this stuff. So yeah, law moves slowly. Like a lot of the law firm partners that get like effectively tenure are like, my process works and I like it printed out or I like having the network, the intranet at my office is reliable.

2:31:54I don't know about putting it in Google. And so people got to figure it out. When do you expect the first AI legal company to IPO? Still feels like we're probably a couple years out, but I imagine the revenue for you or some of these other players could get there, you know, get to that$500 million mark or wherever it needs to be to be interesting to Wall Street. Yeah, so on the paper piece real quick, and I'll answer the other question. It's so funny. The way you can kind of think of this, there's been so much innovation and more of the consumer, like how to get leads, like the consumer part of personal injury where attorneys are advertising on TikTok, on social, et cetera.

2:32:45But on the operations side, there's been very little innovation back to your paper days. They're still doing stuff on paper. We've had some of our folks ask to pay our annual SaaS subscription with monthly checks to give you a sense of how the ops piece can be in this space. And so this is the first time really in history that these operations of these firms are changing substantially, right? Because you now can do a lot more with a lot fewer staff. And if you think about where we're going with this, you're going to see these firms be able to handle a lot more volume. And if you think about the amount of cases that personal injury attorneys take on today, you'd be surprised at how many cases they're not taking on because they just don't have capacity or they can't make the math work, as again, of their model.

2:33:33Sorry, I think I missed the other question. What was the other question again? Oh, I just kind of, yeah, IPO timelines for the category. When do you expect the first companies to get out? Yeah, it does feel like an entirely different market. There's no clear comps that everyone knows. It's not just like, oh, another SaaS company that we can just immediately comp to. So it would be like a new process. Yeah, and the legal industry, law firms can't go public, right? Yeah, yeah, exactly. If you want exposure. And financials got to be different. Yeah, I would love to hear some color on how the public market might receive some of these.

2:34:05In terms of timeline, I'd say the 500 million of ARR, median ARR business going public, I think we're a couple of years away, but we're scaling super fast. We're doubling year on year on a meaningful base. I do think we're maybe two, three years, not us, but we're one of the companies, two, three years out before going public. In terms of how the markets might receive it, it's so interesting. These are such different businesses where you're going to see a lot more TAM than you've seen in traditional software. And so I kind of say this. One of our biggest customers is paying us$4 million a year, and they have 100 employees at the firm.

2:34:45Wow. Think of the implied revenue per head. Yeah,$40 ,000 in value per head. Yep, exactly. So you're delivering a ton of value to this. Yeah, it's because one of the things that comes up with some of our investors, hey, is you're focused in the very niche part of all personal. 300 ,000 attorneys out of over a million, it's maybe 30 % of the base in the US. But when you're making 10x more revenue per head than traditional SaaS, your talent is actually meaningfully bigger than a lot of these SaaS companies that are out there. And so, again, I do think it'll be interesting to see much more rapid growth, much higher base SaaS businesses than you've ever seen before, and how the market would be able to evaluate that, because it is going to be different than traditional SaaS.

2:35:26Totally. well congratulations on the funding milestone i'm sure we'll see you back here again soon maybe one more round before the end of the year you've already done a couple you know uh but uh looking forward to the next conversation have a great rest of your day thank you so much for hopping on cheers we'll talk to you soon and now it's time for our song find your happy place find your happy place book a wonder with inspiring views hotel great amenities dreamy beds top tip cleaning and 24-7 concierge service. It's a vacation home, but better, folks. Go to Wander.com. When Lisa Su took over as chief executive of Chip Company Advanced Micro Devices, AMD, in 2014, the company's market value was just under$3 billion.

2:36:13A decade later, today, it's worth more than$330 billion. A little 100x. There we go. The more than 100-fold increase that reflects how deftly AMD has pivoted its strategy from mainly producing graphics cards for gaming and personal computer processors to more tightly focusing on the data center chips that power the artificial intelligence revolution. The share price rose 24 % on Monday after the company announced a partnership with OpenAI to build six gigawatts of power for inference. The deal has given rocket fuel to AMD's share price and the company's ambitions to compete with rival chip designer NVIDIA which is by far the dominant competitor in the AI semiconductor industry at more than 10 times the valuation.

2:36:56Now, the AMD share price is kind of up and down, and we're now at all-time highs, but just barely. March 8th of 2024, the stock was trading at$207. Now it's at$211. And so they've already ridden an AI boom from$50 a share,$60 a share, up to$200, then back down to$80 a share, and then back up to$211 a share. So Monday's deal specifies that OpenAI will be issued warrants for$160 million shares of AMD stock at a marginal price of one cent per share once OpenAI hits certain deployment targets and once AMD's share price rises. The final tranche of shares will be granted only if AMD's stock hits$600 a share.

2:37:45So it needs to 3X and become a trillion dollar company, basically. For now, the market capitalization, with a market capitalization of$4.5 trillion, NVIDIA is nearly 14 times the size of AMD, and most analysts' estimates peg the market share for graphics processing units, or GPUs as they're known, thank you, Wall Street Journal, that power AI training and inference at more than 75%. So 75 % of the market is NVIDIA, and they're trading at 10 times the price of AMD. AMD faces pressure from companies such as Broadcom, which produces application-specific custom chips for customers such as OpenAI. And so the OpenAI deal might have shifted the balance in AMD's favor somewhat.

2:38:27How AMD got to this inflection point is a combination of careful strategic planning and being in the right place at the right time. Quote, over the last few years, what's been important to us is to understand the workloads that would really drive the next generation AI training and inference. Sue said in an interview, this deal is a huge expansion of the work that we're doing. For much of the past decade, AMD's arch rival has been Intel, the troubled chip designer and manufacturer that recently received major investments from NVIDIA and the US government on the strength of popular designs for the graphics chips used in the PlayStation and Xbox gaming systems and the CPUs, or main computer brains.

2:39:05Thank you for explaining what CPU is, Wall Street Journal. using consumer PCs. AMD has steadily eaten away at Intel's market share for years. Intel has been bogged down by a costly effort to turn around its chip fabrication business. AMD, however, spun off its manufacturing business, now known as Global Foundries, in 2009, while Intel has continued to pour money into its unprofitable foundry segment, even as it fell badly behind the more technologically advanced rivals such as TSMC. And so this is where everyone always says Intel should have gone fabless. They should have split the companies off.

2:39:39That's what AMD did. They split off Global Foundries, became a fabless semiconductor design shop like NVIDIA. The business is similar to NVIDIA. And now this seems like they're catching up. I mean, the stock's up a hundred dollars. Somebody asked Lisa Su if they are going to partner with Intel. Buko Capital says they gave a very, she gave a very awkward and funny response. She says, well, as you know, the supply chain is something that we work on very meticulously. I think we have a very strong supply chain. We're certainly partnered with TSMC across the supply chain. Just to that earlier question, we're absolutely prioritizing building in the United States because I think that's super important.

2:40:23This is the USAI stack. We want to have as much of it in the U.S. as possible. And we continue to really look at how do we ensure that there will be a strong supply chain going forward. So when you have it typed out, it really, you can tell she's trying to - It's always tough to stuff a mic in someone's face and then transcribe it. Who knows? We've been going back and forth on the AI bubble. I think we should close out with the clearest evidence that we're not in an AI bubble from Trung Fan. He says he's not worried about the AI bubble bursting until corporate social accounts start having these exchanges again.

2:41:04And back in 2021, December of 2021, Meta says, this is going to look great in the metaverse. And the official Pepsi account says, you know it, friend. And Budweiser Beer chimes in and says, welcome, brand friend. Wag me. And then Pepsi says, thanks, friend. Wag me with the rocket emoji. And this was a moment. That was a moment. This is a dark time. That pretty much was. That was actually two weeks or about a week after the actual top. Yeah, Keith had called it. Keith called it perfectly. Everybody should have post notifications on for Keith. Yep. Probably going to, if he makes a call again, I think people will be listening.

2:41:52Yes. Anyway, keep monitoring the situation, folks. Stay sharp, and we will see you tomorrow. I cannot wait. Give us five stars on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And tune in Friday for our interview with Sam Altman, the CEO of OpenAI. Sam, it's time. Thanks for watching. See you tomorrow. Bye.