The man behind Chappelle, Burr and Louis CK reveals his playbook

33:00And I say this because everybody watching, most of you wouldn't turn down $5 ,000 or$50 ,000 or$500 ,000 or$5 million,$50 million. It's like fucking crazy. So a little story on the side here. So I get a call from Doug Herzog, the president of Comedy Central at the time and he said listen can you uh i have a check of dave's chappelle's it's uh it's made out the pilot boy productions for 27 million dollars could you have him come in here and pick it up now pilot boy is his company because i did seven or eight pilots with him and uh and they all failed and so his logo if you ever see it is it says pilot boy and he's in handcuffs um and i think it's a little homage also to uh it might be to one of his best friend tony woods routines in the early going where tony said that uh you know uh in his words tony's words black people are always uh accused of being late but nobody ever knows uh why and And I'm going to share why.

34:17You see, back in the days of Africa, we were chilling. We were having a great time. We loved our lives. And then there were these flyers. We woke up the next morning, flyers everywhere. I'm paraphrasing. It might be a little different. And he said, you know, there's going to be a big cruise ship that's going to come by. There's going to be food. There's going to be drinks. There's going to be dancing, music. And so all of us were so excited. and we got to the beach early and when we got there, clink, clink, clink, clink. And that's why we had never been fucking on time after that. Anyway, so I, Doug says, can you get him in here?

35:05I said, no, I can't get him in there. He said, well, I know you don't work with him, but you still are friendly with him and I can't get anybody to reach him and I know you can reach him. I said, I know I can reach him, but I'm not going to, I'm not going to ask him and I'm not going to have him come in because he's not going to come in. I don't know him that well, but I know that he's not going to come in and pick up the check. And Doug started yelling at me on the phone. He never yelled at me. He's like, what the fuck are you talking about? You know, it's like a check for 27 and just get him in here to pick it up.

35:38I said, if he picks it up, he knows you own him and he's not going to pick it up. cut to three months later in LA I'm walking into this place called Real Food Daily and I walk in and there's Dave and his wife and I said Dave you know I think I should tell you the story that happened to me he said what is it you know Doug Herzog called me and wanted you to come into his office and um i told him i wasn't going to call you because i just the reason why he wanted you there was was something that you wouldn't agree to and i was pretty confident of that he said what what was it he said he said he told me he had a check on his desk for 27 million dollars made out for to pilot boy production for you to pick up and i told him that you wouldn't come there because if you picked it up then you know he owns you and he said uh thank you barry uh he said what was the check for again i said it was she said it was for 27 million dollars and dave without missing a beat just was like

37:07sounds a little light

37:09Luke Girgis:i'll never forget that that's that's amazing so i want to empathize here as a manager and i don't know the story so this is a genuine cold question i tried to google it i tried to do some research i couldn't figure out the timeline you started managing louis ck dave chappelle effectively broke them half bake you you took um you did the comedy central deal with chappelle show Was that after you? I did not do that deal. Was that after you? All right. I have some curiosities about that. He took six years off and went to Yellow Springs and then he came back and did that show with Neil Brennan. Did the show.

37:46So - But I did introduce him and Neil Brennan.

37:51Luke Girgis:Yeah. So these - I mean, these - You were such a fundamental part of building these comedians' careers who are now the biggest comedians in the world. We're certainly on their track now. Now you're no longer working with them. How did those relationships end? And why do you think that happens to managers who manage these big stars early? Well, I think the big stars early, big stars late. I think relationships in business are like marriages. and um you know it takes really really extraordinary people to keep the train on the tracks and and to be able to make it all happen and i'm not saying that i'm not i'm not shitting on myself and saying that i i i would like to think that i have extraordinary qualities and i would like to think the track record speaks for itself but there comes a point in time where um certain artists start making a certain amount of money and it's it's a you know it's a daunting thing when you start you know if you saw some of the checks that i've been written you know i my car breaks down and i go to pick it up the guy fixes it it's perfect it's wonderful and i get the bill i'm like fucking motherfucker these cocksuckers i can't believe i gotta pay this and so I think I think money and safety has a lot to do with it and so I can't speak to why things end because a lot of people they don't communicate a lot of them for some reason don't want the confrontation so you just you'll just meet with them and they might say like I met with somebody who I stopped working with and I think they went from like I don't know it's maybe a hundred thousand dollars a year to four million no I was I was somebody who was a part of in a way connecting them to the person who became there in an interesting weird story way to meet their wife to they started a family with I'd like to think my work helped them get like a palatial mansion wherever they are um i never got in an argument with them i never raised my voice they never raised my voice to me to me they're they're never anything that we worked on that they were like man you really that up you did this and when i met with them it was like okay so what is it that's going on here what well this one area here uh in this area of our business uh i think that uh it could be done better now keep in mind this area of the business which i'm not going to mention um had grown seven million times from what it was before but he had felt that that was an area that could be improved upon and maybe it could have been or whatever but the communication is such that I sit down with them and I'm like okay so there's this, this, this, this, this, this all this that's gone well and this you don't think is going well but you don't sit down and say, hey, listen, I don't think this part is going well.

41:42Can we revamp it and get it to where it's like this thing? And then when it all goes down, then you realize, oh, my name is on a hundred contracts through the next year and a half that are over you know millions and millions of dollars so then you realize oh and then you might ask for that what you're owed and they might say uh you know that's i don't think you're

42:20Luke Girgis:owed that because well this is this is the the post term of a contract um clause you're talking about where if a artist terminates relationship with a manager the manager's still entitled to earned several years after whether it's on specific projects or a full income yeah like like for instance if i if you were an actor and i booked you on whatever succession and then after the first you're making 25 000 an episode and you stop working with me i'm entitled to my commission on that 25 000 episode for as long as you're on the show now if you sign with another person and they renegotiate your deal two years later for a hundred thousand an episode then that person makes the percentage of the 75 000 and i still get my thing uh but a lot of artists you know money family pressures relationships marriages there's all different factors Sometimes there's drugs and alcohol.

43:28But the bottom line is, and I'm so glad you asked it, because I think it's important for everybody, you know, watching. I'm not an AA, but I represent a lot of people who are in the program. And one of the things that I hear often throughout my life is, what's your part in it and what's their part in it? so I could sit here and tell you story after story about why things happen the way they do and from my perspective but the bottom line is is that it happens there's people who stay and there's people who leave and the people who stay there's their part in it and my part in it and the people who leave there's their part of it and my part of it as well and just because i don't have a clear understanding of what why somebody would make that decision after i feel like i've done an extraordinary job for most artists i work with i feel like i it's the results are pretty incredible for some artists you know i feel like i wasn't doing the job like i actually resigned from working with bill burr because i was family i was i couldn't i i wasn't moving the needle at the end and i felt shitty about it i felt really sick how did you

45:06Luke Girgis:quantify that like what defined not moving the needle because i just wasn't you know things weren't happening the way they normally did with my formulas that i normally utilize inside me to help somebody get to the next level and i felt sick to my stomach about it because so talented and uh and i just i i just whatever showcase or whatever thing happened people just weren't they weren't giving him the opportunities like they did before with townies and I just felt that he could find a better manager or if they weren't a better manager, a manager that was better suited for him and could figure out a different way to move the needle with his talent and their talent and I think that that's I did that also with Mike Epps another guy I just great things were happening but he was very up and down in what he wanted and I just didn't feel like I was even though he was making money I just I don't know I just didn't feel like I was doing the right thing so sometimes as a manager it's the same in your personal relationships out there it's like You want, I hope you don't mind me being long-winded, and I have no time limit here.

46:44When you're in a relationship, whether you're gay, straight, whatever you are or you decide to be, the bottom line is you have an idea of what you want from the relationship and the things that are going to be important to you that you want to have happen. And during that relationship, and I'm sure everybody listening knows this, there's times when your partner says, hey, listen, you're upset about that, but you didn't really tell me that you, or your partner says something that's like that. And then there's the other side where you think you know what's best for you as an artist, and you think you know what's best for you as a manager, but you're just anticipating because you don't know what the best working relationship and time is.

47:47I just had an artist reach out to me today and said, listen, I'm going to send this deal memo over to this company because you haven't given me your notes. And I typed back, may I make a request? Could you give me another 24 hours? You only gave it to me last night. Jesus. but in his mind he wants a relationship where something's sent and it's addressed and marked up then but another artist might be like hey listen I'm sending you this and take the rest of the week but somebody could look at that artist and say boy that's unrealistic and then somebody could look at me and say, well, he's just, I mean, why didn't he just reach back to him that night and just say that he got it and that he needs some time?

48:47Why did he wait for the guy to do it? So there's a devil and angel on every shoulder speaking. And as my mother used to say, there's three sides to every story. There's their side, there's my side, and there's the truth. And at the end of the day, nothing matters because when you're a manager, like you are, you don't own the IP of your artists. You are not in control of your artists. You are a fucking slave to your artists. I'm not saying that a slave is a negative word, but I just want to say in the connotation of that, you're a servant to their needs. That's your fucking job. They make the list of what they want.

49:39you check them off and you own nothing and you have no time limit do you think that's the way it should be i think that um i think that it can be any way that anybody does it there's no rules anymore so if i want to represent an artist and i say i'm not going to represent you unless i'm guaranteed for this amount of time. But the reason why none of that matters is, you know, when you get married and you're, if you're Jewish and you break the glass and everything until death do us part, well, you know, men have cheated on women. Women have cheated on men. Both parties have lied to each other people do bad things and then you're still in that contract and till you get out it's like and so no written contract for a manager or even an agent fucking means nothing

50:44Luke Girgis:nothing they're just it's like it's what about the post terms surely post terms mean a lot you can't okay here you go and for your audience okay let's just say um and i don't mean to talk about these things that may happen to people that are negative because i don't look at so this is barry this is like don't apologize this is very important because managers are always the first to get blamed and the first to be fired even though they're typically the hardest working, most invested team member in an artist's career. So it is a very important topic, not only for managers, but also for artists, because what happens is when good executive functioning talent managers, highly strategic, highly capable talent managers keep getting fired or keep losing their talent just as they break, they leave the industry and they go somewhere else.

51:38Luke Girgis:And then artists are just left with the, like, there's just not many good managers left after that. If everybody leaves the industry, there's not many good... So, it's bad for artists too. So, it is like understanding post terms, understanding contracts, retaining great managers in the industry is imperative for comedians and musicians and YouTubers and everyone to succeed. It's important for them. So, I think this is an important topic. Okay. So, let's just say you're a music manager and you're working with artists for five years. they figure out a way to launch an album in their own unique way, and it blows up.

52:21And then there's record labels want them, and they're negotiating that, and they're squeezing the record label because they can, because there's many people after them. And they do the deal, and let's say the artist has a tour coming up, and they're scheduled to make, let's just throw out any number and it might be unrealistic. Let's just say it's a million dollars. This young artist is going to make for 40 dates.

52:54Luke Girgis:And music managers typically making 20%, so they're likely to take after costs about$100 ,000 to$150 ,000 from that. Yeah. So the artist decides to fire them after the tour is booked because they got their tour manager. And so now the manager wants to at least get his$150 ,000 back, right? Okay. So what do you have to do? Right away, you know that you're never getting 100 % of what you thought you were going to make. it's never going to happen. I'll say it again in the camera. It's never going to happen. Unless you have pictures of the artist with sheep, okay? It's never going to happen. So now you have to say to yourself, what am I accepting of taking when I just had an artist try to take that away from me?

54:08Now, normally, your thought process is, well, I mean, I'd like to make three quarters of it, but realistically, after all the craziness and bullshit, if I could get half of it, that would be great. but the legal fees are crippling because the greatest lawyers who do litigation like that they're not going to take a case for 150 000 most places won't take it and if they do take it they're looking for 33 of sometimes 40 of what you sometimes 30 of what you get so you fight hard and you do whatever, you get the lawyer, put it together. Let's say you get the contingency, which is so rare to get normally.

55:03You have to hire an hourly lawyer between$500 and $1 ,500 an hour.

55:11Luke Girgis:The contingency is? The contingency could be versus 30, 33, 40%. So it's a percentage of what you win versus an hourly fee. And so they finally, after all the years, get it done, all the anguish, whatever, and you get let's say you get a settlement of $75 ,000. So then the lawyer, if he's taking the contingency, he's going to take about$30 ,000 or$35 ,000. And if you're paying somebody hourly, you're going to pay way over $75 ,000. And then you think of all the hours you have to spend with it on your mind, fighting it, doing it. and it's better to just get in settle it and get the fuck out because you have to move on because the world has a plan and in your case the world's plan was move this guy out so you have time for another person to come in but management is about riding the bull for as long as you can and then when you get thrown off know that you're healthy enough to get on another bull and ride again and and that's what it is now I'm a very I think I'm a very bizarre case because One of my strengths is also one of my weaknesses.

56:44I love doing everything I can in this crazy fucked up business. So I've owned comedy clubs. I am a corporate consultant. I have a three year deal with Cirque du Soleil to bring comedians there. I work with products that want to incorporate comedy in there. I have my podcast, Industry Standard. I've done that for 13 years on the side. I've interviewed everybody from Kevin Hart to Judd Apatow to the president of Netflix, Ted Sarandos, Dr. Phil, anybody you can imagine. I've interviewed 25 network presidents. Okay, I do that. I do my blueprint program, which is this weird, fun program because I can't manage everybody, but I always know everywhere I go in comedy clubs, people have always come up to me and asked my advice or whatever.

57:54So I wanted to set up a portal where any artist in the world could come in and there'd be different tiers and they could have a part of me in different ways they could have a weekly meeting with me they could have a private meeting with me they i could help them in anything like that and there's like a thousand people what's the website for that it's called the industry blueprint.com and it's um and it's just these areas where people can airbnb my brain and within that there's a whole other area that's a blueprint accelerator which is this collection or collective of people from all over the world so there's a guy in new zealand who has 3.5 billion views on his youtube channel he's like the youtube expert there's a social clipping expert there's a palette and branding and logo and website design and skinning expert there's a literary expert that looks at scripts with me and identifies problems and issues and gets going there's people there's two emmy award-winning producers who help me shoot pilots and presentations and hour specials for like 25 000 they can do an hour special what and so So I can, because of my connections and everything.

59:25Luke Girgis:I'm a comic. I come to you for$25 ,000. You can shoot my hour special. Yes. Fully edited, delivered. And it'll look like something that's - I think I got a lot of referrals for you. That's okay. That's amazing. Keep going. Because what happens is in this day and age, if you can find people who want to do something different, like these guys won an Emmy Awards for a documentary on HBO. and but they love comedy and they and and shooting a comedy special i've done 45 of them it's like breathing for me it's not difficult so i can just tell them how i think they should go have them look at 10 specials and look at the study the angles to see which works best show them to the artist what does the artist want and then we make it happen and and and and these guys own their own equipment and do everything and when i you know 20 years ago when i started doing a lot of hour specials for other people i just actually ran into tom arnold and uh it's kind of an emotional moment because i i asked him if i could do his first hour special this is back when it cost like a hundred thousand or more to do them and he said yes and and i'll never forget he he got off stage and he got a standing ovation and he hugged me and he was like like almost hyperventilating crying like just like thank you and again from the beginnings of what we talked about on this podcast this is what you want, you want to make a difference, so let me keep going so with the industry standard I know I make a difference to thousands hopefully, I mean there's millions of people have listened and it helps them, I run into Ted Sarandos, last time I ran into him and he said Barry you know i don't do really any podcasts but uh you know i keep hearing about my podcast i said how do you keep hearing about it he said mostly when people interview with me they sit down with me i'm like how do you know all this stuff about me like oh i listen to the podcast or whatever so the blueprint is a way to help artists that i can't manage everybody but i can make a difference and the sad part about the blueprint which I don't like is that I guess I do a lot of private consulting too people a ton of people who no one knows that I help them and what's difficult which I don't like is the people with more money get more of me in the private consulting world and so that's why the blueprint was important for me so i could do something for people who don't have as much money and i'm excited about that and then do you use the blueprint also as an a and r oh i don't know if a and r is the right language in comedy but a um a scouting source because somebody comes through blueprint and you're like this guy's fucking good or this girl's freaking good i actually might want to manage them uh i've definitely uh been in situations where i've produced uh things that people have done there's a pilot presentation that i did with a consulting client that uh um has won seven festivals this year as the pilot um uh so i i do those things i there's another consulting client I had that came to me with a script.

1:03:16I love the script. It was a drama. I'm not really a drama guy, but I love drama. And I'm like, wow, man, this is good. He said, look, I put money in the bank 11 years ago, and there's$445 ,000 in there right now. Can we make the movie for that? I said it's going to be tough but I think we can do it and I'd be honored to help you produce it he said great we put a deal together and these are the god shots that happen everybody listening or watching knows that everybody's had a god shot and what I mean by god shot is like things just you're like how How do these things happen? So I finished the producing deal with him.

1:04:15He said the first agenda is getting a star for the movie, or at least somebody who... When you're working in an independent movie, your goal, one of your first goals, I believe, if you don't have relationships, or people aren't going to take chances whose stock is moving higher. They're not going to take a chance on an independent film if their stock is moving because they can take a chance on a film that's fully financed and big and can pay them a lot of money. So you have to concentrate on the people who have a household name whose stock might be down a little bit but who everyone knows and knows that they're capable of doing and extraordinary performance.

1:05:07And I'm like, God, I've got to put my list together for people like this. And I'm in the bank. I'll never forget this. I'm in Malibu, and I hear that distinctive gravelly voice. Can I get this deposit and interview it? And I'm like, I look over, and it's somebody who I've been friendly with and I've interviewed. It was Michael Madsen, the late Michael Madsen. and i hug him i say mike how are you i haven't seen you in a long time he said uh barry um my son just uh committed suicide and uh i've been in rehab and they just let me out to come to the bank my sponsors out there and i just uh my life's shit right now barry i want to get my family back together again i said you got five minutes you want a movie he said yeah what is it and before i said anything he said he said this he's buried you know before we talk about anything can i just tell you something i said yeah what is it look i'm really really in tough shape man if you have anything for me anything for me where you can get me some money right away so i can send to my family i'll i'll guarantee i'll do the movie i'll sign it i said funny you should ask um how much do you need he said can you get me can you get me thirty thousand dollars for the movie and another ten thousand dollars that you give me that my manager doesn't find out about oh geez i said you don't want your manager to know he said no man i just i need that extra money I said okay get on my cell phone I call the guy from the blueprint who I met and did the film well I said can you wire$10 ,000 today I got to give it to Michael Madsen in cash he's like Barry I don't even I mean that's exciting but I don't know he's gonna do the movie I said you don't but we're gonna take a risk and I'm gonna hope my relationship with him works and we can make it happen and i'll work with his manager on the other thing and just pretend it's a 30 000 deal for three days work and well he'll do me the favor and he did and you know to have a guy who'd been in eight 100 i think eight 200 million dollar movies yeah uh was a huge thing and that helped us get you know uh a lot of people who've done a lot of things zach gordon from diary of a wimpy kitty to the lead in those movies now he's an adult and he's great dramatic actor uh rob morrow who was uh on the show numbers for five years on cbs and northern exposure and a great actor.

1:08:19We got him. Jay Moore did it. Kirk Fox, Jeff Ross did a cameo.

1:08:28And we submitted to festivals this past year. It closed the LA Film Festival with the Man's 400-seat theater pact. It won the New York Soho Festival's Best Picture Award. So I do get involved in certain things that I believe in. And the tough part is, is like, what do you get involved in and what do you don't? And when you're giving notes to people to let them know that, you know, because you're a manager. I was on the phone with a client the other day and he sent me a sizzle reel. He said, this sizzle reel just won the$10 ,000 first prize at this competition. And it won the$25 ,000 first prize at this other competition.

1:09:13and I watch it. I'm like, I don't laugh at all. I'm like, so I have a lot of interns and assistants. I think 10 different people I show it to and I'm watching them not laughing at all. And I call them and I say, listen, I don't want to tell you this, but I don't know. And there's something here, but it's not written funny. And it's like, you got to, we got to change. He's like, everybody likes it. You're the only one who doesn't like it. And 10 people you don't like. you don't like it i'm like look i'm i'm not a yes man yeah i'm in your life to give you contrarian opinions to help you make things the best they can be and then he said i love constructive criticism i eat constructive criticism for breakfast whatever you want to tell me i can take it i'm like okay well um i really don't think this is is that good right now i think gonna make it better what the fuck are you talking about it's great so you so you you yeah you you this happens all the time so then just to keep going with my theme i love managing i love producing tv and film i love creating shows and so there's all these things for the barry business which is your biggest income source right now it changes all the time because one time you could be managing a client that just fucking it's like ridiculous yeah and then one time they're like hey i'm not gonna work this year i'll never forget dane cook i was working with dane cook i hope you wouldn't mind if i said this because it was just fascinating it was just so much and i never care about the money i'm not one of those managers that care about the money and the money's gonna come you do great work do you not care about the money because you have a lot of it no, I never consider myself having a lot of it.

1:11:02I've always put everything back, either my personal life or my business. I'll share something that's, again, I don't want things to come across the wrong way. When I was a little kid, and let's get back to the Dane Cook story. When I was a little kid, I saw the ocean for the first time, and I said to myself, I have to live looking at the ocean i want to live looking at the ocean i want to be there and um when i came to la i remember nick swartzen who was a client of mine was living in this building in venice beach uh near a rose uh it was for those of you who come to la and know la it was uh above the fig tree cafe which is a famous vegan restaurant on venice beach and uh he said my friend is leaving his apartment and i know you've always wanted to be by the ocean and i was staying in this beautiful home in the hollywood hills like beautiful but i hadn't lived on the ocean yet then i was just busy and crazy and he says check it out and i check it out and it's this building is a fucking shithole okay it's a it's a walk up smells like piss and it's next to a halfway house there's a guy you know on meth in the front door every night you have to fucking open the door but i walked into this corner place on the ocean this one bedroom and i'm like fuck it i'm getting this place and it was like 850 a month that's all it was and it was a dive and i was in this beautiful place and i just said fuck it i want to see what it's like to live on the ocean and ever since i have and so i do live in malibu and i lived in malibu for a long time and people a lot of times ask that question that you asked about the money and look if i lived a life in glendale or Valencia or insert suburban neighborhood here, then I'd look across from you and say, man, I'm, you know, you see, you know, it's fucking craziness.

1:13:23But when you decide to live a certain lifestyle that makes you happy, you have to dedicate a lot of money to that thing. And I'm not like spoiled, and I'm not like I don't get a lot of stuff, but I love the calm and peace of mind that I have and once you find this and all your artists find this and everybody listening finds this at the top of the chain in terms of everything the very very top in anything you do is three words peace of mind and if you have peace of mind you have everything how do you get it I'll tell you how you get it so first of all you get it by something that has a negative connotation because right under peace of mind right below it on the chart control

1:14:32and control is a negative she's controlling, he's controlling my boss is controlling the network executive is controlling they keep trying to control the show but the thing is as an artist, as a manager, as a CEO the more variables that you can control the way you want them to you control how much money you make and control the products that you put out, you control the money that you pay people, you control the people that work with you, you control your content,

1:15:12you control who you find, who you fall in love with, and who's going to spend the rest of your life with. You control which house you buy, which furniture you buy inside. You're the most happy. There isn't anybody who doesn't have control. I'm sorry. There isn't anybody that has control that doesn't have peace of mind. But I say peace of mind is at the top rather than control for a weird reason. And I always go back and forth on it. Because I used to say that control was on top and peace of mind was second. but I recently have been putting peace of mind on top because you kind of need to have this peace of mind and calm to be able to understand what you have to do to control the different variables of your life and sometimes if you don't have that peace of mind and you start going with control you start making decisions that create more problems for you and so

1:16:21to create that peace of mind it is controlling as many variables as possible. Now you as a manager you can't control your artists. It's like you can't control anything. It's like all you can do is do the best job possible you can for them. What they want. and hope you understand how they're communicating things to you and hope they understand how you're delivering for it. And that's it. You know, it's like, look, Steve Jobs, everybody talks about how incredible Steve Jobs was, but everybody knows that he, you know, wasn't great socially with people. He didn't really have those skills or whatever, but he had other skills and but sometimes you can't always control things elon musk remember

1:17:23Luke Girgis:that demo of the cyber truck oh yeah the broken window he throws the shot putt in the thing you know i i don't want i want to say to you ross i have no dog in the fight i'm not like saying i'm an elon musk fan i'm not an elon musk fan but this is what i am a fucking fan of I'm a fan of a guy on the biggest stage introducing the biggest product he's introduced in like three years and having a cascade failure of broken glass dented doors and fucking nothing. just peace of mind calmly whether inside he was raging just like went through that thing do you remember what he said after I forget it was fucking hilarious he goes ah room for improvement yeah and it made me want to get the fucking truck even though it was a fucking failure that's because he gave me the peace of mind and he made me feel safe that he's going to take care of it And being a manager is about making people feel safe, just like it is in a relationship.

1:18:40And when I'm in a personal relationship, not to get creepy, but I look at it a lot of times the same way as a business relationship in the sense that it's like being a cast member on Saturday Night Live. Sherry Oteri once said this to me. I represented her for a little while. she said whenever I was on SNL I always felt like even though I was in every sketch and I was doing great work and I was on the cover of Rolling Stone that I was just auditioning for the next day and personally when I'm in a relationship I have to audition for the next day and if I don't get the next day then I got no one to blame but myself and look in the mirror.

1:19:34So if I get fired, yeah. Does it sting? Of course, I want to represent people when I'm in a wheelchair. But also, an artist has the right to feel things. When I interview Ted Sarandos for my podcast, anybody watching here, do you think most artists are like, yay Barry that's great news that you interviewed Ted Sarandos and you brought information to the world that's helpful for the world they're smart they would say Barry

1:20:14Luke Girgis:it's great you have a relationship with him so when I need you to pick up the phone he'll answer no but this is what in my mind I'm not saying it's right this is in my mind what most artists feel after they find out. Hey, Barry, how you doing? Yeah, great. Listen, I heard your episode with Ted Sarandos. Yeah, thanks, man. It was great. I had a great time. Listen, did you talk about me? No, I was just doing the interview. Did you lock him in for my podcast? No, I was just doing the interview. Did you talk about an hour special for me? um no i just went to his office or when i were to do the interview but if you you know i i i will be doing those things in the future but i didn't do them then well why not you're with them so in my mind that's what some artists might think and so there's this there's this episode of the office where Michael Scott is trying to sell a paper contract and his boss, Jan, at the time is so pissed off at him because all he's doing is drinking and talking about dumb shit and not actually doing the clothes.

1:21:30Luke Girgis:And they build this strong relationship over the whole night and then right at the end, he kind of goes, oh, look, you got to help me out here, blah, blah, blah. And then he closes the deal. And then his boss realizes, oh, my God, this Michael Scott idiot actually knows what he's doing and he's building a relationship. and that's one of my biggest things that people make fun of me all the time the word i say over and over again relationships and you mentioned neil brennan early on and then i've got a big big man crush on him and uh and as jeff ross would say you drop more names than oscar schindler but uh neil brennan when i interviewed him the thing he said that i resonates with me so much he said nothing valuable has ever happened in my career unless i was hanging out at a comedy club around comedians and there is that relationship thing and i do believe that and that's a lot of times what happens with the podcast people ask me like a lot of times like have you um have you interviewed jay leno when i've known jay leno you know 40 years i'm like no why not um you were just with him the other night you were hanging out at the improv and uh with him and arsenio another guy you haven't had on the podcast how come you just don't ask him i said because i just i just want the relationship to evolve and when i feel the time is right i'll i'll ask there's no sense of urgency i'm not gonna no one's passing away if i don't do somebody on the podcast it's not a money thing um and so i like creating those relationships and those are i think really important and i the ability for you to call someone and then answer your call is maybe the most important skill set you can have as a manager or the important asset you can have as a manager and that's one the then if that's the case then then humbly i'm very blessed because i i can't remember a time when somebody didn't pick up the phone you know or even somebody who i don't manage anymore.

1:24:03One of the greatest feelings in the world is knowing that you've experienced something that isn't maybe didn't go your way per se the way you think it did. And instead of holding a grudge you have the greatest respect for them. I'll never forget Bob Morton who was the executive producer of Letterman for 15 years or more. a really good friend and I've produced a lot of shows with him and I interviewed him and he said one day Dave just called him in the office and sat up down and said listen we're gonna make a change Morty he's like what and we're gonna make a change what kind of a change I'm not gonna not gonna need you here anymore

1:24:59Dave, we've worked together for 15 years. I know, but I'm making a change. Thanks, Morty. And I asked him, I said,

1:25:14you know, what's something you can tell me about that that people wouldn't really realize or understand? He said, I watch that show every night. even after I was fired I watched the show every night I'm like why did you watch it every night because he's the king Barry

1:25:41Luke Girgis:he's the king I don't think I could bring myself to watch it anymore if that was me I know because people hold grudges and you can't hold grudges now I know what you're saying like there's sometimes when I stop working with an artist and they don't engage me anymore. Like, I don't see them anymore. They don't reach out. They don't. And this happened to me recently. Jay Moore interviewed Frank Caliendo. I represented Frank Caliendo for about 10 years. I did a deal for Frank Caliendo. though I think I can talk about this safely I did a deal for Frank Kelly and you want to talk about managing I reached out to dish which I don't even know if it exists anymore was a cable network and I pitched them the idea of Frank doing a commercial with all different characters on a green screen or white screen and they loved the idea and there was somebody at the company I knew who knew Frank and loved Frank they weren't sure what they were gonna do but I thought that then we could do it this way we sort of collaborated so I don't want to take all the credit because they were really aggressive to you and they make an offer for a hundred thousand dollars for him to do a couple of days shooting commercial and I tell Frank and he says oh that's great thank you Barry I said no problem I'm gonna I'm gonna ask for more he's like Barry you don't I mean I'm good with the hundred thousand I've never you know I've never made more than 25 ,000 on a gig you know and I'm good with a hundred thousand I said I know but I think there's more he's like just don't lose it I said no problem I negotiate with them some more i call them back i said frank i just want to update you on the dish thing we're up to 250 000 he's like wow this is fantastic thank you so much barry i'm so grateful thank you i said i think i can get more he said barry just stop this is this is this is fine I'm happy everything's good whatever Frank just trust me I think you know I can get more I call back a week later I say we're at five hundred thousand oh he said Barry close the deal I'm happy I'm happy I said I just have this instinct there's more frank he's like barry close the deal i'm like frank i just trust me he's like barry and this is like one of the first times that i was like i i was really going against somebody's instincts and and their direction but he didn't really know that i was going against it because in my mind every manager has a trump card and this is the trump card that every manager has if they call back and say the deal's over fuck you we're not doing it the trump card is you go to your artist and you say here's a letter to send to them say that you never authorized barry to ask for those numbers and you're firing him tomorrow and and i'll take the last deal so that's your trump card now that you don't have to fire the well i've never used that before that's really that's a really fun tip okay so i call him back i say frank um i'm ready to close the deal he said oh great thank you barry i said it's a million dollars and an option for another million for some more commercials.

1:29:52$2 million deal.

1:29:54Luke Girgis:How did you know that there was this much? Because I'm assuming the story is you closed it. Yes. Oh, fucking crazy. So how did you know that there was 10 times the money in the deal than the original offer, which was already five times more than he'd ever earned before? I just instinctually felt it, and I felt like he was the only guy who could do what they wanted. But no, hang on. What are the actual economics of it? I mean, gravity, everything comes to the ground. So there must have been something that you knew about the budgets of the company, the budgets of the show, the budgets of whatever, where you were like, there is a million dollars here I can extract somehow.

1:30:31Look, these cable companies and these publicly traded companies, these are billion dollar companies. And it's the thing, if you want something, you go after it. This is the thing about artists. Artists rarely have a sense of urgency. So you'll get an artist that'll say something to you. Let's say you're YouTube. Let's say you have a young YouTube artist. And you really want them to create this new character that you've seen them do. And you really want them to do like a YouTube series in their YouTube channel. this character that you love that they do and a month goes by they don't do a second month a third month

1:31:20Luke Girgis:and they complain why there's no money coming in yeah but I can guarantee you if I or if there's an artist that we talked about auditions where they go on ten auditions they don't book a job I can guarantee you if there's an actor sitting right here with us and I say to them, listen

1:31:47your family is being held hostage and you're not going to see them alive after January 1st unless you book a job before January 1st do you think they're going to book a job? yes they will if an artist says hey I want to record my own stand up special how long has it been in the works? four years if your family is being held hostage and you have to shoot that special before january 1st or you're not going to see them alive you're going to shoot the special yes you are and it's it's all about the sense of urgency and uh and that's what i believe it is and so with frank it's the power of no it's knowing that you have a commodity i don't mean to call frank a commodity he's not a kamadi but an impression an impressionist of his magnitude at that time which was 15 years ago or whatever it was there was nobody even close to what he was doing it was just it's insanity uh he's probably and and i know people don't look at impressions as talent.

1:32:59They look at it as this God-given channeled thing that happens with people, and they don't. It's not even understandable. It's like that young four-year-old kid who climbs up to the piano and plays the rack. Obviously, there's something bigger at play here. But if we don't look at that, you know frank helen and there was is arguably in that world one of the most unbelievably talented people and i and i said i stopped working with him um over a money issue um and um but i i'm sure it wasn't just a money issue i'm sure there might have been other things and i I really haven't talked to him that much since.

1:33:47And it saddens me because I have no animosity towards him. Whitney Cummings, who I work with, I just was at an episode of the Hollywood Squares. And I'd even booked her for a show that I did. I did this show called Telethon for America. It was Jane Fonda and Chelsea Handler and Whitney. and she was in the building with me and we didn't really talk. And I was like, hmm, I wonder if there might be something going on because I have no, I have no, and I love Whitney. I have so much respect. Maybe she didn't know that though.

1:34:32Luke Girgis:Maybe she was thinking, oh, Barry doesn't like me. But who knows what it was, but I was at Hollywood Squares and I saw her talking to Drew Barrymore and they were sitting down and i i i did something which i i don't i don't i don't think is adequate wise it was bad etiquette because i interrupted a conversation with her and drew barrymore but i i guess i presume that since drew produces the show too that they had spent many times talking together and and they could continue right after and i just said uh drew i'm sorry to interrupt i haven't seen whitney in a long time i was wondering how you just take one minute and then you can go back to your conversation i'm so sorry she said no no problem and whitney stood up and you know she hugged me tight and uh introduced me to her child and uh and said to drew that's the first person who ever believed in me and so and then you're like oh okay well uh this is good you know so when i when i run into uh chappelle or burr who i love the quote he said about me to me he said uh barry i love you but i wouldn't open a lemonade stand with you oh why is that no it's just uh you know just he's he i did a podcast with bill and he roasted me for that's so funny so i don't want to finish up with you without some free advice free advice i want free advice you're not paying i'm not paying so if i am a comic who has been on the grind for 10 15 years i'm living full-time off comedy not doing like Not amazingly.

1:36:34Luke Girgis:I'm doing all the big comedy clubs multiple times a night. I'm grinding. My follower count isn't that big. I'm stuck. I'm living full time off comedy, but I'm stuck. Why am I stuck? What can I do to get myself to the next level? Well, the first thing I'd say to them, which they wouldn't like to hear, is that why are you asking me a question that you know the fucking answer to? I mean people aren't dummies they know everything I mean it if I'm an influencer and I post one time a week and my competitor posts seven times a week who's going to be seven times better at the end of the year if i'm a stand-up comedian i go on once a week and the others go on seven times a week who's going to be seven times better i i don't know of any artist in the world that outworks and outsmarts all the people that do what they do and loses.

1:38:01Now, I do know people who work harder than other people.

1:38:09And I know people who don't work as hard as other people. I don't, if Bert Kreischer, who I represented for probably eight years and I love, if he were sitting here, I presume that he would say, I don't work as hard as Judd Apatow. I presume he would say, I'm not working as hard as Bill Burr.

1:38:47Luke Girgis:He's not as big as Bill Burr. There's a lot of people that are what I'm saying is you're saying that there's people that are bigger if Dave Chappelle were sitting here I presume that Dave doesn't wake up at the crack of dawn and start writing until he goes to sleep at 2am I presume that he the biggest mistake people can make is looking at aliens dave chapelle is an alien and say i can do what the aliens can do do assume you are not an alien work like a human being not like an alien yeah so you can't compare yourself to all these people but the point i'm trying to make is that you just have to as an artist the evidence is all there.

1:39:44I mean, I, you know, remember I said that you know, the top of the thing is peace of mind. Well, when it comes to the advice that you're asking for, the number one gift that you have as an artist and I tell all the people I consult with, if I manage it, if I do the blueprint or even the industry standard, I really believe this is a key. It's all about the lyrics. and when I say lyrics, I know lyrics are always associated with music, but I associate them with magic. I associate them with stand-up comedy, sketch, YouTube influencers, singers, songwriters. It's like you have the lyrics. Get a helmet.

1:40:41It's all over. I mean, I want to share this with you, because it's one of the most important things that I talk about, and I use this person as an example a lot, and I don't even know why, but it just always stuck with me. and it wasn't one of the greatest bits of all time but if you're a comic the most important thing is your premises original premises and then you can write as many jokes as you want under those but just premises that you, you know, what is it, Joe List does a routine, Jay Moore was telling me that he just interviewed him on Picasso who does a routine on Picasso it's like Jim Jeffries gun control

1:41:30Luke Girgis:I mean who's doing that was his hit single if we're using music analogy that was his breakout single like who's doing routines on gun control yeah or Oscar Petoric or whatever your name is the guy with the prosthetics Chappelle the crack baby who's doing routines about a baby selling crack in a diaper. And so this guy who I represented long ago named Nick DiPaolo, who's now a political comedian, I'll never forget the first bit I saw him do. And because after the premise, if the premise isn't necessarily extraordinary, or if it is extraordinary, the next most important thing is the phraseology.

1:42:26Original phraseology. So I'll share this with you and your audience. Simple premise. I'm having a bad day. I'm really hungry. I'm in New York City. I go into a sub shop. There's no one at the front desk of the sub shop. I ding the bell.

1:42:50young pimply-faced kid comes out of the back with rubber gloves and a plunger in his hand. Says, can I help you? Pimply-faced kid with rubber gloves and a plunger in his hand. Number one.

1:43:10I looked at him and I said, yes, you can start by boiling your hands. Start by boiling your hands. Another phrase, incredible phrase. The guy says, I don't understand. Next line. Wash them like you're sterilizing surgical tools. Three. The guy's like, look, pal, I'm sorry, I don't understand. I don't understand. He says, look, pal, I don't want the rhino virus in my tuna. So one minute, he's got four phrases that no one uses. You'll never hear. And these are the things that...

1:44:04Luke Girgis:Phrases you'll never hear, but you instantly understand. Yes. and they gain respect of your peers, they gain respect of your audience, and you become instantly memorable for what you have to say. I just think to myself, I saw a clip of Jim Jeffries because I love Jim. Australia represent. And I just saw a one-minute clip, and you've seen every clip and probably your audience has, but I just want to share with you and paraphrase it because I love it so much because sometimes the greats can pen and teller a joke. And what I mean by that is pen and teller were famous for telegraphing the routine and showing you what you're going to see, how the magic trick is done.

1:45:02And that was their thing. They would do a trick and show you how it was done in a comedic way that they created. And so there's certain comedians who can do that. And Jim Jeffries, and I know you've, again, I'm sorry if I butcher this, Jim, but it's just this one minute clip from his special that I just love where he just says, you know, he talks about something, a premise that's been talked about for decades. The statistics of marriage. And he goes through the statistics. He says the least successful marriages are lesbians. The second least most successful marriages are heterosexuals. And the most successful marriages are gay men.

1:45:56so he's told you the statistics your job as an audience member always when you're sitting there is to try to figure out the puzzle of what the joke is going to happen the greatest comedians of the world do not let you know what the answer to the puzzle is until the last minute and I want to talk a lot about this because this is really important in a horror movie The reason why you're scared is you're fucking the person goes in the basement and you just don't know when the fucking kill shots going to happen, when the fucking hands are going to come up from the stairs. You just you have no idea.

1:46:38And that's why it's great. Horror and comedy are the same. And great comedians are telling the story or the joke. You don't know where it's going to go and you can't figure it out. But the greats can sometimes show you where you're going. Well, I already know where he's going with this, so how is this going to be funny? But it's still funny with the way he explains it. He says, let me mansplain this for you. And then he just says, you know, gay women are the least successful marriages because there are two women involved. You know, and I just, the phrase, even though it seems common, it's not.

1:47:25There are two women involved. And then he says, you know, regular marriages, heterosexual marriages are not much better. They're the next least successful because there is one woman involved. And then the next line he says is something, who knows, you probably heard in high school. He says something to the effect that, well, there's a reason why the word gay meant happy. Because there are no women involved. So you got these phrases that are, they seem common. There are two women involved. There is one woman involved. There is zero women involved. And it's just like, oh, my God. This is fantastic.

1:48:19And so let me just go with this for a second. One-liner comics are really, really challenged. And there's not a lot of one-liner comics because they have to write like, you know, five, six, seven, eight jokes per minute or whatever it is. Let's just say five, ten. But Rodney, his jokes were like four or five second jokes. And you probably think to yourself, well, how, why does he get laughs all the time? It's because the audience doesn't have time to figure it out. Well, I got to tell you, my parents hated me. My bath toys were a radio and a fan. You know, it's like four seconds. You don't have the time to figure it out.

1:49:07You know, it's like I went to the bartender. He said, surprise me. He pulled out a picture of my wife. you know it's like it's just it's all these things where it always got a laugh because you there's no time for the audience to solve the puzzle somebody i saw i was consulting with somebody and they said what do you think of this joke and i said i want you to say it slowly and i want you to stop before the punch line and see if i can guess what the punch line is and if i can It's no good. And it was like a common formula. It was like, I traveled to Georgia last week. I went to the black area of Atlanta.

1:49:57It's called, what's the joke?

1:50:02Luke Girgis:I'm worried there's too many American references here I won't get. So I'm sorry. That's okay. I went to the black area of Atlanta. It's called Atlanta. That was the joke. And I knew it was coming. I mean, you didn't know because you're not from around here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then I remember this other woman in the blueprint, and I loved this joke, and I never saw it coming. Hi, my name's Jane. I'm 45 years old. You know you're getting old as a woman when? And I was thinking to myself, God, what could that be? When your Spanx have an expiration date. That has a few things that come to mind.

1:50:41When your nipples get caught in your shoelaces, what is she going to say? And then I asked her to say a few more lines to see if I could guess it. Hi, my name is Jane. I'm 45 years old. You know you're getting old as a woman when you have to buy. And I was stumped. I said, tell me a few more lines. when you have to buy your own. And I fucking still don't know what it is. Drinks. Yeah. And so this is the line. My name's Jane. I'm 45 years old. You know you're getting old as a woman when you have to buy your own cocaine. Fucking boo. Like just fucking Mike Tyson uppercut. And a lot of times artists, musical artists, you know, comedians, magicians, they're throwing jabs.

1:51:41And you're not going to get anywhere throwing jabs. Yes, if you're a boxer, jabs can break down the opponent to where you can win. But jabs and comedy don't win. you need the fucking Mike Tyson uppercuts because there's other people throwing them. And that's the one thing you'll never understand from comedians. People will send me like hour specials who I look at and I take the time with. And a lot of times, like half of them, half of the jokes or even 40 % of the jokes are fucking amazing. They're like amazing phrases. Like one guy just watched this special, I think his name's David Smalley. And just amazing.

1:52:41You know, I'm from Houston. I'm from a progressive area of Houston. People wave a rainbow Confederate flag. Rainbow Confederate flag. who what is what is another line he said I'm in a bar a guy's uh being rough with his girl he's he's pulling her hair he's throwing her into her seat and he looks over to me and he says they're all bitches right and he says look man uh I'm just wearing a tank top I didn't know I was wearing your uniform. Okay, I'm not one of you, you know, whatever. And it just, it's, and then there's other things that he might talk about that are low-hanging fruit. And you wonder, like, well, do comics know what the low-hanging fruit is, the easy laughs versus whatever?

1:53:41Because what I like to do is I like to think to myself, like, even with a musical artist, anybody, you know, everything's drowning in the ocean and you can only say one thing. What is it going to be? What do you believe is your best thing? I mean, do you know what your best song is? Do you know what your best character is? Do you know what your best clip is? Do you know what directing style you use that's going to be best? Do you know when you write something what is going to be the way you write it that's going to get the most response. And that's the thing. As a comedian or anybody, you have to know what you do that's the smartest, that people love.

1:54:31You've got to think to yourself that you're in a room with your Mount Rushmore of comedians. It's Carlin, it's Chappelle, it's Pryor, it's whoever you love on top of that. and they're watching your routines, the best night you ever had in your life, they're watching every routine with the best response you had in your life, which ones would they do? What a question. One of the things you realize when you... It's like... When I started working with Brad Williams... Again, I always want to make sure I say the right thing so that... So Brad used to close off with this routine before I started working with him...

1:55:28where he called somebody out of the audience and he did a lap dance for them with music. He was dancing around. Brad is an extraordinary, one of the greatest dancers you could ever imagine, even though he's four foot four. I don't know if he does it anymore. I'm in dancing, you know, because he works so hard. And, but he's amazing. And so he's out there, whatever. And I remember I was at April Foolishness, which was a benefit. at the old Universal Amphitheater, 6 ,000 people. I'm backstage with Jay Moore, Jim Jeffries, Bill Burr, and I forget who else it was, and it was Brad. And Brad goes on and he does the lap dance, gets a standing ovation.

1:56:17And I'm standing next to Bill Burr, and he looks at me and he says something like, and this is great, I've got to follow a dancing midget. And Jay Moore gets on stage after Brad and he looks out at the crowd and he says, listen, I was just out back with all the comedians and I think it's pretty obvious we're playing for second place. But the point I'm trying to make is that Brad knew that that routine was not going to garner him respect in the comedy community. but he also knew that that was a standing ovation bit that he was closing his shows with at the time i'm sure he knew in his mind that he had to evolve to something else and i made it clear to him when i met him to represent him that i wanted him to not do that anymore because i saw him as somebody who would garner enormous respect in the business because he's so great and such a hard worker and so there's a lot of comics that close on routines that are like they're like what are you doing like why are you closing on that routine and and and why would you do that when you know you have all the evidence this is the last thing i'll say every comedian every musical artist every youtube influencer you have something that none of us had when we were growing up but when i was growing up i i didn't have any buddy to to see to watch to study and you have to study greatness imitate greatness and then you become great and and if you want to be a comedian my god you fucking can study every video you can freeze frame time out when the laughs per minute come, a musical artist, whether you love him or hate him, if you watch early Eminem or Juice WRLD freelancing, I'm sorry, freestyling in a radio station for an hour, you know, XXX, you, I mean, it's incredible what you can see.

1:58:34You watch influencers, original influencers like Ed Bassmaster, three million subscribers. You watch the things he did. You can see the formulas. You don't have to steal them. You make your own thing. You do your own thing and you see the formula. Adam Sandler still makes love stories where, you know, there is somebody walking through a place. They see the girl. The music stops. than the second act, getting the girl and losing the girl and coming back. Nobody's upset at it. It's just a formula. Sitcom formulas, talk show formulas. There's still the desk with the thing. But make it your own and everything will happen.

1:59:19Again, if you work hard, you work smartly, and you create original lyrics or content that fuck people up. and I like to say create holy shit moments and get a fucking helmet because it's all over

1:59:36Luke Girgis:Barry I am so grateful for everything you've shared with us today the insight into your career the how the business works free lessons Barry it's actually a huge privilege and I'm very grateful thank you so much thank you you should be very proud Oh, I'm back. I don't take breaks. The world need more hope. I pray it ain't too late. I don't know what the plot is.