Is Fashion Sleeping on Twitch and Discord?

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1:06Kai Cenat: Hello and welcome to The Debrief from the Business of Fashion, where each week we delve into our most popular BOF professional stories with the correspondents who created them. I'm senior correspondent Sheena Butler-Young. When the founders of menswear label, Jared John Leonard, started a Discord group during the pandemic, they wanted to bring together fans of the Japanese fashion label No. 9. That group grew from 20 people to several thousand, and by the time they launched their own label, they had an audience that had watched them develop their first boots and choose fabrics. Within a year, the brand had landed at Harvey Nichols.

1:42Kai Cenat: That's one example of how platforms originally associated with gaming are helping shape a generation's taste in clothes. On Twitch, streamers are taking their fans shopping, introducing them to rare designer pieces, and launching labels of their own. But what gives these communities their influence? And can fashion brands tap into it without losing what drew people there? Joining me is Lei Takanashi, who reported on how Twitch and Discord are shaping menswear's next generation. Lei, welcome to The Debrief.

2:10Jarod John Leonard: Yeah, thank you so much, Gina. So excited to talk about this.

2:13Kai Cenat: I'd like to start with for our uninitiated listeners who've never used Twitch or Discord or engaged with those platforms. Can you take us inside these spaces a little bit? Like, what is it like in Discord and on Twitch?

2:27Jarod John Leonard: Well, let me just like clarify first and foremost that I'm definitely not the person who's sitting on these social platforms like for hours on Amazon end. But I've definitely engaged with them just as a person who plays video games and also just was first introduced to a platform like Discord during the pandemic to actually just talk with friends originally. So for those who don't know what Discord is, imagine if you use Slack, but it's more casual. It's like really designed originally for just like gaming people to converse on. Like, you know, there'd be like certain video game discourse and people would just come and just talk about certain video games.

2:59Jarod John Leonard: But how I learned about it was more so just through joining, you know, brand ones. Like the first one I joined was for a brand called Brigade. It was like a New York Streetwear brand. And it was just people who were fans of the brand. And they would just talk about like what outfits they were. They would like buy and sell pieces from it. And it was a very small group, you know, mind you. It was probably a couple hundred people in that one. but it was just something that was kind of different from like a Instagram or even a Twitter it felt more intimate a little more private like a little clubhouse type of vibe so Discord is

3:27Kai Cenat: interesting Twitch is where people you go on there and you watch for like uninterrupted hours someone's just live streaming right that's the other version of this yeah yeah I mean Twitch is

3:37Jarod John Leonard: very very different from Discord and there's a constant live stream of content but you're really following one specific creator or influencer on those platforms right and there is a chat room element which goes out like i guess the speed of what you know discord chats too but like the focus is more on the sole creator or influencer so someone like a kai sanada i show speed you know a plaque boy max like all these people have generated these huge huge followings by just streaming their daily lives and um that in itself has become a whole new sort of like entertainment niche right where it's like i'm not someone who's actually sitting on twitch and watching these streamers and subscribing to them but i started noticing them pop up on like my timelines because when you have people like lil yadi come on kai sanat stream it's just interesting to watch you know because they're just doing something silly or like you know they're promoting like a sneaker or something maybe or you know it's like there are all these events that happen on these streams that eventually become clipped or they call them people call them clippings and then they get shared on all these social media accounts and all that.

4:38Jarod John Leonard: So even if you're not engaged with these platforms, you definitely end up just seeing them at the end of the day, because it has become just part of, I think, just the mainstream social media ecosystem, essentially.

4:49Kai Cenat: As I understand it, they both have their roots in gaming. They both probably have in common this sort of authentic, unfiltered communication style. But one offers the public spectacle of a live stream, the other sort of the intimate conversation. What else do they have in common in terms of their ability to, I guess, incubate, for one, menswear brands, as we're seeing now, but also these kinds of creatives that can influence fashion audiences and menswear? How would you describe the commonality there?

5:19Jarod John Leonard: I think what fashion really values in general is nicheness, right? Like finding things that feel like a subculture in some sense, right? And I feel like, some people may scoff at that and be like, how is a streamer a part of a subculture? That's not like punk rock. That's not like skateboarding. That's not like any of those things. But I think what people got to understand is that yes, they're massively popular, but it's not like your mother, your father, everyone knows who someone like Kai Sanat is, even though tons of people know who this person is. And I think people are looking for icons in just different places now, right?

5:55Jarod John Leonard: And then I think the same kind of goes for Discord, where it's like, these are communities that are not necessarily like super open and accessible, you kind of have to like seek them out, you kind of have to be plugged in to find them and join them. And I think it's almost like being on like, kind of like a niche club of sorts, right? And I think people like that sort of closed off-ness of it, you know?

6:15Kai Cenat: What do you think that someone that is in a Discord or Twitch can get from talking about clothes in those communities that they couldn't get on Instagram or TikTok. And I found that to be one of the most fascinating parts of your story. And it's something that I've grappled with, not as a creator, but as a journalist, like the inauthenticity that I think is starting to be very apparent on Instagram, right? You know how the sausage is made. And I think what it seems like Twitch in its own way, like the kind of the streaming gets to be basically like you people have gotten arrested on a live stream like it's so unencumbered right and then you have um discord where people are very blunt like what do you think people are getting um doing they talk about clothes on these forms that they can't get like what would you add to what i just said because i certainly think people are somewhat blunt on instagram but there's a lot

7:07Jarod John Leonard: more polish happening there yeah yeah i think um the big thing at discord is that it feels more i think secluded and private you know or it's like it's and it's like not like something where it's like you don't even know who these people are i think half the time and i think that's what creates a more like honest sort of like um robust community where like people are more open about themselves i remember like when i spoke to that the young one of the young founders of jared john leonard on clark he was telling me how he didn't use instagram because um i think he just didn't feel comfortable kind of putting himself out there like that essentially but on discord since it was like this like niche community where one you know that everyone's into this like japanese fashion brand number nine right and it's like and no one's gonna think you're weird talking about it it's it's not like your family follows you there and all this stuff there's none of that baggage right

7:55Kai Cenat: or just look at lay trying to be an influencer oh lol he doesn't have that yeah but it's like um

8:02Jarod John Leonard: you know there's none of that i think there's so much pressure on instagram to perform to look to like you know present yourself in a certain way right whereas like and discord i think you don't have to bring all that you could just come as your true self i think and just talk about you know what you joined as disco supposedly for whether that's like a very niche fashion brand you know tons of like other people are obsessed with that nobody at home understands but hey you found a community on this platform to talk about it and then like to speak towards twitch you know i think what's really interesting about how people engage with fashion on twitch is that yes like you know these like streamers they they they also post instagram fit pics and do all that stuff that is like very curated and polished but then you see someone like kaisa not like you know shopping in japan like he was he recently had a stream in japan where he went to one of these vintage stores and i think he was trying on this um tom ford jacket and it's like it was funny because he basically said something along the lines ago the price is too high but you know it's like it feels real you know it doesn't feel like it's fabricated and so he's not just like it doesn't feel like um he's just buying things to buy things or it's like you're really seeing how he his tastes are developing or like um how he's just kind of interacting with fashion in real time and that also goes to what he was trying to i believe convey for that right like it's this whole the whole idea is that like you know we everyone sort of saw that video where he announced that he was like supposedly gonna quit streaming and then you know he's like filming himself going to these factories he's filming himself meeting a lot of roach and i think you know i think some people may think that's a little cheesy, but I think it's also really captivating to people because it's like, you know, it feels like a founder story, you know, that's just kind of interesting.

9:47Kai Cenat: And they got to watch it in real time.

9:49Jarod John Leonard: Yeah.

9:50Kai Cenat: So another example of how a streaming moment, like someone just, you know, going about their lives that has a lot of followers and feels connected to them and building community with them can turn into a commercial opportunity for a brand. So Kai is like on a live stream. He goes into Walmart and he buys a$25 pair of sneakers. Tell us about what, what happens next and why is that so persuasive?

10:15Jarod John Leonard: So yeah, what happened was, um, so Kai and his streamer, his friends with name were Kai. They went to Walmart to do like back to school shopping. Right. And, um, it's funny cause like, uh, he, well, they say goes to like, I guess the, the fashion, whatever closing section. And he picks up this like um they pick up this like 25 pair of like avia 5000s right and rakai says something like online so like this is like super fire like this is really dope and then like i don't remember if he ends up buying them himself or like i think he does but regardless of whether he did or didn't just him saying that this shoe was dope led to like tons of people picking up this 25 seeker right and then you know a year later he ended up um collaborating with um under armor on their own sneaker and um yeah i think it just goes to show the influence that these um creators could have even just like a small little moment like that where it's like they're just shopping at a Walmart

11:08Kai Cenat: of all places but do you think that that is more persuasive and i have my own instinct about whether it's more or less i i think it's more but like compare that to you know i don't know a Kardashian, you know, putting on their Instagram grid, like just picked up these, I mean, clearly like hashtag ad, you know, back to school shopping with the kids, you know, and found these amazing $25 Avia sneakers. Do you think it gets the same results? And even if it generates sales, do you think that it does not build the long-term, you know, connection that you want as a brand? Like how does the value proposition of both of those moments compare to you?

11:48Jarod John Leonard: Yeah, I think it's so different because like i think when what you're describing sounds more like a a planned thing right like when a brand plans like a celebrity endorsement i think it's very clear and i think now we're dead before consumers can tell like even when like the content creators like clearly seated like a package right or like a pair of shoes or whatever whereas streaming it's kind of just like happening you know it's like and you can never tell like what's going to happen next and i think that's what kind of keeps people engaged and just like glued in i mean i remember for Aaron Levant, when I talked to him, he's at Complex specifically, like they've been really paying close attention to this space and all like the influencers and new creators coming out of it.

12:27Jarod John Leonard: And I thought a great point he made to me when I was interviewing from the story was that there are very few things that create just like concurrent attention today. And I think the only other thing beyond streaming is just like sports, you know, and you know, to speak towards that i mean like you know i showed speed right he was um i believe like one of the first streamers to get invited to the fifa world cup this year and like they gave him so much permission to do just whatever and like and john karamadaka actually in new york times recently profiled him and he wrote about that partnership they made and it it's amazing how much unprecedented access they gave this creator, but also just how they focused the camera on his reaction.

13:12Jarod John Leonard: It wasn't necessarily like the game, right? And I think it just goes to show that people are just really invested in these personalities and just really do pay attention to what they do. You know, I thought it was really interesting about this profile John wrote that was published yesterday was how like, you know, people like huge amounts of people come out to these places when, you know, where they go and they were literally watching the streams. And like, there was one instance in this story he brought up or like, I should speak, went to like a restaurant and people start calling the restaurant to try to speak to them.

13:40Jarod John Leonard: Like that's how powerful the pool of these, these P &Ds on these streamers have. And I think, you know, I think that's a lot more powerful than a curated Instagram post by a celebrity to be honest.

13:53Kai Cenat: So the CEO of Complex called these streamers, the new rock stars. How long before some of this authenticity starts to feel too commercial? So we, you mentioned Kai's not. He has a brand. We talked about that authentic moment at Walmart. Like, is every moment that's showing up on a stream authentic? Is every moment that becomes commercialized out of the stream still as authentic? You know, like every celebrity says when they launch a product, like, you know, I would never do it if I didn't actually have a passion for this lip gloss thing. You know, are there limitations to the authenticity of this once it becomes commercial the way it is

14:30Jarod John Leonard: becoming commercial you know i think it could get over indexed like anything you know like i think i feel like right now is like the hottest moment to get into it because you know brands have relatively stayed away from it for a lot of reasons over the years you know really streaming i think is tough for brands to engage with because there's so much risk um you know you don't know what could happen on a live stream i mean like i mentioned in my story this infamous moment where kai sanab after he was like signed to a nike deal you know brands like asics were seeding him packages and he was opening a6 on the stream and then you know he started talking about dash and be like wow this is amazing but oh my god like you know i'm violating my contra nike you know that type of thing and um i think we haven't reached like the peak of it yet and i think there's still so much more opportunity here at least in the present moment i mean i feel like just this year you know we've seen brands like 424 bring like boost drop them off on the runaway um we've seen on Burberry and fight streamers like Marlin to sit front row I mean these things I don't think have been like just like super blown out yet so I think they're still exploited the way brands exploit it hasn't reached the peak of exploitation yeah yeah yeah but um I get your question like because it's like yeah I think you know like any sort of celebrity marketing thing you got to think of new ways to do it like for example like when Rakai was doing that Under Armour collab he was design that live on stream right and i think you gotta wonder if it's like you know okay can you just do that playbook again with him like probably not i don't think it's because that content then becomes kind of old it's like you can't just repeat that i think idea like oh let's make a you know a underarm collaboration live on stream i think you have to kind of like be a bit more ambitious and think of like new ways and but i think you know with streaming it's just a lot of opportunities because of that live component you know it's like i i mean i can't necessarily like conceive of one right now, you know, but I'm sure a very savvy brand marketer can just like figure that out, you know?

16:25Kai Cenat: Well, a similar question or similar thought with Discord. I remember, I believe when we did the text, the BOF Tech Summit one year, I think we had like a Discord theme panel and there were so many excited tech or tech slash fashion executives talking about this is going to be the next big wave and brands should kind of figure out a way to get involved. And then I think your story mentions like they think was the Mason Margiela discord, but like just other brands in general when they got on there being so corporate, like how a publicly traded company with all the layers of bureaucracy trying to get on an authentic platform and engage in conversation while also, you know, checking off the shareholder values box.

17:07Kai Cenat: box and you know we have we're in a quiet period for q1 earnings like there's so many limitations that i think prevents them from being authentic why is discord sort of an interesting place for brands to play but also maybe the very way they have to operate probably goes against any benefit

17:26Jarod John Leonard: that they could get right yeah yeah i think really the answer to that is just if it hasn't happen for your brand like there isn't like a channel outside of like your brand's own direct you know social media presence which i was like i think you just have to just let that exist or happen or just like foster the creation of it you know i think a lot about um you know i don't think discord's too dissimilar from a platform like reddit right where it's like there's tons of people engaged in these brand reddits like you're for like huge luxury brands like louis vuitton right i don't and if you go on those reddits like you'll find praise you'll find criticism you'll find like critiques you'll find everything there and i think discord is a very similar place right so i don't necessarily think brands have to control those spaces but i do think they should just pay attention to them right and just listen to them and just like you know if you're not directly involved at least it'd be little search for them be aware of their existence and just uh you know, listen to what the consumer has to say there, because that is where you'll probably find the most honest opinions about your brand and the most unfiltered praise, critiques, whatever it is.

18:36Kai Cenat: We'll be back with more of The Debrief right after this.

18:47senior correspondent: Being a serious business owner takes hard work, patience, and a drive to keep moving forward. So it's important to find a serious business card that goes the extra mile. With the VentureX Business Card from Capital One, you earn unlimited double miles on every purchase. And with big purchasing power, you can spend more and earn more. This is your sign to take your business to the next level. The Capital One VentureX Business Card. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com for details. Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, email, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, The Headline Hammer.

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19:44Jarod John Leonard: That's goo.gle slash workspace with Gemini.

19:51Kai Cenat: What do you think brands misunderstand most about Twitch and Discord? I think the headline from what you just said is maybe thinking that they can contrive it to a corporate outcome versus just paying attention. If you can't participate authentically, maybe you don't. But they are so valuable and brands would want to leverage them. Are there some other things that they misunderstand about how these spaces work or what their value is to the larger fashion ecosystem?

20:21Jarod John Leonard: I think the big one that I think about, especially from this story, is just I don't think you just knock the influence, particularly just like streamers right now. I think that's just a huge new celebrity category that I think everyone should be taking a bit more seriously and not just like dismissing people like Kaisenaz like, oh, this is just a celeb with money who's able to like start a brand. It's like, I mean, I just remember going to that Vivette show and like, you know, there are tons, like dozens and dozens of people just waiting outside. Like just like you're trying to get a glimpse of him, you know.

20:55Jarod John Leonard: These people really have considerable influence in this world now, I think. And I think that's worth paying attention to. Whereas like Discord, like I'm not sure what else I would add beyond like don't try to make it like super corporate or polished. But I think it's really just, again, just like paying attention to these things. And also I think Aaron made a good point about streaming where it's like, you know, the best people to work with are the people who really understand the space and are really passionate about it, you know? And I think, you know, that's how you create just really something that's authentic or just like figure out exactly how to speak to that customer today, you know?

21:30Kai Cenat: Well, one of the things I think I may have even oversold in this conversation a little bit is that the focus on your story is menswear. You know, the brand by Kai Sinat, also Jared John Leonard being sort of really interesting and successful examples of real viable businesses that came out of these platforms. A conversation that we've had so many times in the newsroom is that menswear needs something, like a catalyst, like a big headline or a big product moment that kind of invigorates the category in a more interesting way. Why do you think these kinds of communities have been so instrumental in creating some of the newest, I guess, more exciting menswear moments?

22:18Jarod John Leonard: You know, that's a difficult question to answer right now, but I want to kind of look back at Robert Cordero's reporting around the Vivette show where he got to talk to Sanat and spend some time with him. And there's this one quote in the story that I think is really fascinating. And he wrote that Sanat is still finding his voice as a designer. But if his first collection was too close to Vetements and Yeezy, the spirit of community at the project's core, completely with 12 advice for fans eager to fall on his footsteps, makes Sinat more like Gen Z's answer to Virgil Abloh. And, you know, at the time, I think, I believe we actually like made it into a quote card on Instagram or something like that.

22:59Jarod John Leonard: And a lot of people reacted very. I'm sure. They reacted to that, you know.

23:04Kai Cenat: Yeah.

23:04Jarod John Leonard: But I think there are similarities between them that I think are worthy of pointing out where it's like, you know, Virgil Abloh was someone who wasn't a formally trained designer, but he had a very robust following of people. Right. And I think. He knew how to speak to his generation through platforms like Instagram, right, which was the premier social media platform at that time. I don't think that's too dissimilar from what Kai is doing. He knows that for his generation, for that young consumer or that young person today, that is who they're following and who they're captivated by. And there's that same dynamics of he's in the room of all the celebrities that are defying the moment.

23:50Jarod John Leonard: Virgil very much was on the same sort of time. And I think that's sort of what makes it captivating. I think it's just someone who's just a cold. They're both cultural tastemakers just in different spaces.

24:04Kai Cenat: My last question maybe, sort of asking you to make a maybe hot take, maybe lukewarm take, maybe a pretty cold take. I don't know. But is this, in your opinion, a fundamental shift in who gets to influence menswear? Or, you know, maybe it contributes to the conversation, but not really shifting things. And does it continue or does it stall out? And I'm asking this. I'll give you my own little thought. The more we talked about it today and I read your story, I started to think about Instagram 10 years ago or however many years ago when it first started, but like bloggers before that. And like once they were able to take sponsorship money, you couldn't really tell the difference between that.

24:50Kai Cenat: paid advertising in a newspaper. And then, you know, influencers were supposed to be sort of untethered or not in bed with brands. So you could believe what they said about a product. And they started to take sponsorships and they started to take money and they became commercial. And then their value as an authentic source of information started to become a little less. I mean, the business evolves, but like believing what they say is no longer uncompromised. I think these the foundation of discord and twitch lend themselves to probably a longer range authenticity moment but I don't know that I believe it won't turn into another commercial exercise that is no longer as authentic do you see a shift or do you not like is this going to be how we get menswear in the future

25:40Jarod John Leonard: i feel like i think it's how you get some of that base in the future you know it's like i don't want to i want to be clear like i don't think you know twitch and discord is like i think it's shipping a significant number of mentor customers i mean one thing i want to point out is this whole like you know a lot of this story came from some reporting from new york magazine and sam hein where it's like um he he covered this trend called ball hog fashion right and i was fascinated that ball hog was this trend that came from twitch streamers like brady goo and bruce drop them off who are just these two twitch streamers are really invested in just um archive fashion and like you know using platforms like grill like they literally stream themselves like buying items on these sites and stuff like that and you know i think that is influential but i think it's still just a niche amenzer right and then there's another niche amenzer that like you know to them what's influencing them is just like you know things like craftsmanship and you know like um you know really sincere design from independent brands in like japan or like you know evan kenori in like san francisco so i i don't i don't know if we could really say oh yeah like this is gonna be the thing that defines menswear for like the next like 10 years and this is good the thing that's gonna define menswear text next 10 years i think both of these things can happen concurrently and kind of influence different pockets of that base but what i will say is that i think for a lot of young people especially like um you know those that have grown up with like you know just these creators like since they were a teenager i think they will continue to be as influential as you know someone from like let's say my generation that's like maybe more in the millennial sphere like as as influential as someone like as um kanye west right like you know i think i think it's just a different it's a celebrity just from a different world that's creating that influence and I think that will have a lasting effect and just power on them

27:36Kai Cenat: absolutely it reminds me of when the CEO of Skims said that Kim Kardashian was this generation's Michael Jordan like I think every generation has not just one but like in a certain to your point niche or sphere this person represents something and you hold on to that and then the next generation gets their version of it. That makes sense to me, Leigh. Thank you so much. Always an informative conversation. I learned so much. Maybe I'll join Discord and make it less cool. I don't know.

28:05Jarod John Leonard: Yeah, thank you so much, Gina. I really enjoyed talking about this today, even though it's something I'm still trying to familiarize myself with a little bit more too.

28:15Kai Cenat: You can read the full story and find more of Leigh's reporting on menswear at businessoffashion.com, available to BOF professional subscribers only. The links are in the episode notes. You've been listening to The Debrief, produced and edited by Olivia Davies and Angel Nemov. I'm Sheena Butler-Young. We'll be back next week with a new episode. Thanks so much for joining us and be sure to follow us wherever you get your podcasts.

28:52Thank you.

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