Building Belonging: Joy Nazzari on 20 Years of DNCO, Saying No and Staying Sane

12:36Joy Nazzari:And so pretty humble start. But we became known really for doing great work for commercial office buildings. And it was high value stuff for us and it was high value stuff to the clients and it had an impact. So kind of a pretty humble beginning. But what we did was use expertise in those areas to build out into other and new areas. So offices became then residential, offices and residential then became mixed use, mixed use becomes neighborhoods, neighborhoods become cities. and really to give a piece of news, which will be okay to talk about when this podcast is live. We've actually just won a U.S.

13:15Joy Nazzari:state. So we will be branding a U.S. state for a tourism brand, which will be new territory. So there's a lot to be excited about. Besides that sort of trajectory of what the word space means to us, we are doing wayfinding. We have a little software company. So I suppose the thing that keeps me here is I can't help myself in these new little investigations we're doing. I do like to stay within a lane. I personally, and I know not everyone likes that. And I think designers sometimes get, you know, they have their time at DNCO and then they want to move on because they want to go and do a record label or a perfume brand or whatever it is.

13:55Joy Nazzari:But for us, there is a benefit to being a real expert and specialist in this idea of connecting people to places. So I love that expertise that we've built and continue to build. We are learning a lot. Goodness me. What do I know about Vermont besides Bernie Sanders and leaves? You know, there's a lot to learn. And running a tourism brand, these are big new challenges. So that's it. Is it Vermont? Sorry, did I say that out loud? I did. Yes, it's Vermont. So that's an exciting project.

14:27Katy:Yeah, I just immediately think of autumn leaves. I know.

14:31Joy Nazzari:Oh, well, I think, not giving too much away, I think that's the challenge, right? Is how do we get people to think about Vermont outside of the fall, the autumn, the fall as the Americans call it? You go to Vermont to enjoy, as a tourist, as a visitor, to enjoy the falling of the leaves, the changing of the leaves. It's an incredible phenomenon. But golly, there's a lot more to do in Vermont than just go and check out the trees. So we're going to be digging into that. It's fun. Amazing. Are you going to go and do a sort of little trip over there? Oh, yes, you bet. So I think that's the interesting challenge with city brands.

15:07Joy Nazzari:And well, anything with the government, I would say generally, city brands, place brands, and now state brands, is it's 90 % engagement. You really have to be on the ground. You really have to speak to people. There's a huge amount of investment that I think you don't necessarily get in other types of projects. but you have to do that collaboratively. You have to do that co-creatively. And we're learning more and more about these challenges. You have to spend time on the ground. Can I come? Can I go? I don't think I'm allowed. I think our New York studio and a few of the UK team are going to be going.

15:45Joy Nazzari:I'm not sure I'm allowed, Katie. You and I can, you know, we can go out to lunch and observe them afar together.

15:52Katy:Yeah, exactly. Oh, what a shame. I was looking forward to pies. hitting the road and yeah oh well um okay so it's been it's been a really nice journey for you um when you look back on the 20 years what stands out to you that's been the most challenging aspect oh so i think gosh as a leader you're you know the difficult stuff always floats up

16:20Joy Nazzari:So I would say that is, you have to be battle ready for that. You have to love the crunchy things. Managing people, crunchy. Yeah, the crunchy times, you know, the stuff where it's like, oh, this is hard. Clients, things happen, pandemics, all these things. People look to you and they're like, what's the answer here? so I would say the that that's the that's the job is you're going to get hit with things that are either there's no playbook for and you've got to write the playbook uh while whatever the expression is build the plane while it's in the air already yeah and um so from a challenges from a challenges perspective I would say I really feel like we I don't know we of course we had challenges but I don't have memorable ones or few, perhaps few and far between, in the first 15 years.

17:15Joy Nazzari:Then the pandemic hit. We were 15 when the pandemic hit. And that, in and of itself, we kind of kept going, but it has created probably the most fundamental shift in the whole time. And we're still feeling that now. And I think that would be, and this is hard to say because people hate it. They hate this conversation. But we had the same turnover throughout the pandemic. We did pretty well, actually, but we had no profit. And the reason for that is we needed more people to be able to deliver the same amount of work because we're working from home and productivity just tanked. So it's an ugly conversation, but it's something I think that the world will look back and say, this is what happened and we have the data to really prove it.

18:02Joy Nazzari:I have the anecdotal data. We used to just be much more profitable and we're coming back to that now, but I'm also like, well, we're more in the studio now. So I really feel that that fundamental shift, it was great. The first 15 years were awesome. I loved the first 15 years. I'm not going to say the last five years I didn't love. I loved the last five years we have fundamentally shifted up as a business, but there's something that's happened in how we work, which has been hard. It's been a real juggle. No one knows the right answer to that. Well, people think they know the right answer. The right answer probably isn't one or the other.

18:38Joy Nazzari:It's always gray areas. But I would say that's been a challenge that's happened that directly affects the numbers. People want bigger salaries, but productivity is lower, so you have to hire more people. So somehow the maths aren't mathing and no one wants to hang around to listen to the maths. And obviously budgets are being hit. So just the economics of running a business in the last five years is probably the biggest challenge. That's the answer.

19:04Katy:Yeah. Yeah. You're running a business. You're running a business. And I always think people are better in the same room to be effective. Yeah.

19:14Joy Nazzari:I can see it. Yeah. And do you know, the really simple way to look at it is, and I think there's some basic things you learn from other people just through osmosis sitting next to them, seeing what they're up to, hearing how they talk. So all of that is well, I think, documented. But just the maths, this is what I'm really interested in. You and I, let's say we want to have a meeting in person. If you work from home a couple of days, I work from home a couple of other days of the week, and they're different. We have one day, so 20 % of what we might have usually, normally, not usually, before pandemic might have had available to us, suddenly we have one day per week available to us.

19:56Joy Nazzari:And so you and I are then scheduling a meeting in person that is eight weeks away. And I'm just having conversations with people saying, why are we having a meeting in eight weeks? Like, just come over now. And I actually sometimes will say, like, can I just come over now and we'll talk about it? This meeting in eight weeks thing is stupid. So with clients and with our team, this just diarizing time face-to-face to bond as human beings, which we just, we cannot digital away that piece. That is, that math sucks for us. So things slow down and pace is the biggest drag in my view on bottom line. So if you can't do things at a good pace, then you are dragging, you're dragging the profitability of a project down.

20:43Joy Nazzari:So both between juggling time with clients and then juggling time as a studio, finding, you know, time for 10 people to get together for a standup. Whereas we used to just circle the wagons. Sorry, that's really American. Circle the wagons. We should just turn our chairs physically around and say, hey, Katie, like, have a look at this. What do you think? Is it good? No. Oh, move that there. Didn't have to have a meeting. It just happened organically.

21:05Katy:Yeah. It's a shame. Shame how it's changed. But like you say, there's lots of positives to come out of it as well. And stop apologizing for the Americanisms. I love them. I know. I don't know why.

21:16Joy Nazzari:I've done that twice. I don't normally do that. And I definitely see the positives. So I'm I'm picking my son up at 4.30 from school today, right? That's on Friday. I never did that before. You know, I think the parents have really seen a huge benefit from the flexibility and not just parents as well. And lots of people suddenly, you know, a yoga class at 5 p.m. has opened up for someone and they come back and maybe they do an extra hour or something afterwards in a different headspace. That's all great stuff. I'm a huge buyer of that. But we have to accept that there is probably an impact somewhere.

21:48Joy Nazzari:And then when we cry about the economy being down, we don't realize that all these things actually, they actually add up.

21:55Katy:Right. And I suppose if anyone really is pushing him back against that, they've got to ask themselves, is their job going to be there in six months time anyway? So what do they want? Do they want to see the benefit of the business that they work at or do they want to work in their pajamas every day of the week? I don't know.

22:14Joy Nazzari:Maybe that's a little bit controversial of me to say. no it is it is but also we should be saying out loud more I think we should be saying that more it's for me if if I was yelling it in the beginning of my career I would be in the studio as much as possible and not to show face it's not presenteeism it's just not that it is I might be then sitting next to lunch to someone who I don't normally work with in the studio and learning from them somehow or just observing something seeing conversations being able to have all of that

22:43Katy:access to people you don't get that at home you just don't go you don't and you don't build the same kind of relationships either um definitely yeah okay now i know when we before we started recording i was saying to you do you mind me asking you this because it's annoying because we're women and it comes up yeah but i am curious because i feel i see in you a kindred spirit i know that you've been in this game a long long time and i want to ask you joy Nazari um have you ever felt that you are held back because you're a woman okay all right let's stretch after this one I mean just no is the answer firstly I don't I don't

23:27Joy Nazzari:know what it is I I haven't had I haven't felt burdened by being a woman um at any point and I'm not sure if this is right but it might have even have helped uh in certain situations just by being a bit different. I mean, I'm different in a lot of ways. You haven't seen me in person, so you'll have a shock when we finally do see each other in person. But I'm over six feet tall. I'm American. I'm a woman. You know, I'm not a designer. Like there almost isn't a room where I'm fitting in with everybody. And in a way that not fitting in, I think has sometimes been a benefit. So I've never had the sensation of, I okay there have been some situations where I'm like oh there's some good casual sexism there nice well done guys I grew up with older brothers so I've always been very water off a duck's back in there and just prove my worth and then people invite me into the room and that's that's where that's what really matters is add value and I I personally believe the more you add value the more it doesn't matter uh what your gender is just back yourself and back the work that you do and people will see that and that's the important thing.

24:37Joy Nazzari:But I, so this is my new revolution. I've never felt the sort of the woman thing hasn't really been a thing, but I'm going into a new phase where I'm not just a woman, I'm an older woman and I'm starting. And that is, isn't that so, so now I, and I don't know if this is self-consciousness. I don't think it is, but I'm observing things where I'm like, oh, that's because I'm an older woman. And, you know, it took, um, and some people who, if they do listen to this, they'll know it's them. So I apologize to them already, but, um, I've been okay. Boomered in the studio a couple of times, which really honestly, that, that really pissed me off.

25:16Joy Nazzari:That is so rude. That is really rude. And I actually, I don't mind my thinking being called out, but it's like, oh God, like that hurts. The really funny thing about that, though, by the way, is I think millennials now are being okay boomer by Gen Z. And I'm loving that secretly, because if you've been okay boomer by a millennial, you want to see them have their come out pens, frankly. But anyway, that all aside, the generational shit sucks. Like, don't do that to people. Yeah, it sucks. It's ageist. It's ageist. But now being an older woman, I'm starting to have some observations about that, which is interesting um the way the one i have that i'm chewing on i haven't come to the bottom of it oh i should say incidentally my mom left our industry at my my exact age and she left because she said creatives stopped listening to her that is just disappointing yeah she's 82 now and um she is sharp as oh my goodness me this woman is incredible but where she lived she lives in the U.S.

26:20Joy Nazzari:She's currently in Las Vegas with two of my nephews. She literally took them out to a concert last night. She's 82. She's full of beans. She's amazing. But she works in our industry. She's great. And that was her statement. Her statement was, I had to leave when creatives, they no longer took me seriously. And she said it was an age thing. So I always had that in the back of my head. I don't think it's affected me, but I've connected the dots now. Like, oh, I'm that age now. And I have this other observation. I have no idea what it means yet. so you can help me interpret this. But I have two sons, two boys, teenager and preteen.

26:53Joy Nazzari:And I have noticed anecdotally that they take me more seriously when I'm dressed for work, when I'm wearing makeup. And they take me less seriously when I'm in my, you know, like weekend garb and no makeup. And I noticed it so much that I've actually started clocking and almost testing, not like, it sounds a bit creepy, but I'm interested just generically, like what does this mean that they they actually go that's that's an interesting idea mommy I'm going to try that if I'm wearing makeup so there's I have this funny thing about do I am I just getting into like old hag mode where on the Sunday morning they're just like I don't know who you are lady but I'm not listening to you but if you dress nicely and you're wearing makeup it's something like oh that's a good idea mommy so there's this weird correlation I hope they never listen to this podcast because they will be mortified they will hate that well maybe it's your persona maybe you

27:44Katy:change a little bit maybe your body language changes a little bit maybe it's like a kind of

27:48Joy Nazzari:hat that you put on maybe i mean that's that's entirely possible i i i genuinely believe you do do that right so i have uh over the years if i have a really mega pitch coming i i like to buy a dress to go to that because you just put on a thing you're like this is the me that i'm putting forward today i'm a big believer in in having a thought about who's the person i need to put on, not act, but you know, you've got versions of yourself. Am I going in being bombastic joy, or am I going in being measured, intelligent joy, you know? And I think these are believers percentage wise, not like you can't do major personality shifts, like go in and be you, but what bit of you are you projecting forward?

28:31Katy:I just want to be cool. I just want to be cool. I know. Yeah.

28:34Joy Nazzari:That's, that's, I'm, I've definitely, I've given that up a long time ago. Oh, come on.

28:39Katy:No, seriously. How tall are you? Six one. So I'm six foot. Oh, okay.

28:46Joy Nazzari:Fellow tall girl.

28:48Katy:How big are your feet?

28:50Joy Nazzari:I'm an eight.

28:52Katy:Oh, you lucky thing. I'm a nine. Oh, yeah. I'm probably more comfortable in a nine.

28:57Joy Nazzari:Did you read that Celine Dion, I don't know where I read this, but Celine Dion apparently throughout the years whenever she bought shoes, they would say, what size is your foot? She'd say, no, no, no. These are the shoes I'm buying. Just tell me what you have available. And whether it's too big or too small, I don't care. I'm just going to buy them. I sort of thought, God, your feet must be screwed. Yes.

29:18Katy:Maybe it was like, you know, an age thing. Maybe it's rude to ask somebody's shoe size. I apologize. I don't mind.

29:24Joy Nazzari:I don't mind.

29:25Katy:It's a tall girl thing.

29:26Joy Nazzari:If they were any smaller, if they were any smaller, I would fall over, right?

29:29Katy:um anyway well my mom's got size six feet the lucky thing i i want to know how she stays balanced you know she's taller as you taller well she was i think she's shrunk a little sorry mom but she she's fabulous she was a nurse she was a primary school teacher so she was running after children her whole career so she's fit as a fiddle no problems with her health no physical ailments she's just amazing i mean she's if i could go back and choose a career it would be working with children, I think.

29:59Joy Nazzari:No, we wouldn't, we don't want to lose you.

30:02Katy:Oh, no, no. I'm fully embedded now in the creative industries. You can't get rid of me.

30:07Joy Nazzari:No, we can't.

30:08Katy:It's interesting to hear your perspective, especially, you know, you just assume all women have the same experience. I'm the same as you in that I've never really noticed that I'm a woman. It's never really been a defining feat. I don't, obviously I'm a woman, but I just, what's the big deal? You know, I'm Katie and I'm doing this thing and this is the work defines me and how I show up you know my gender my my sex is really just a kind of feature you know does it really have to be a big deal well and actually

30:41Joy Nazzari:more importantly maybe from a design perspective it's like it is a big deal that I'm in the room because the number of times there's things where I'm like you know you know you guys are forgetting that there's like the other half of the population, which, so one silly example is definitely, there was definitely a logo option on screen where it was like an O and a B. And I just burst out laughing. And I just said to guys, you cannot do that with all the circularness because basically you've just replicated a tampon brand. And I'm not saying just for like period relations, but there are things where it's like, Like if you have to see the other perspective.

31:23Joy Nazzari:Yeah. And so I think it's, well, I think it's hugely important diversity from that perspective. Matthew Syed's book, Rebel Ideas, if you haven't read it, it's totally amazing. Gives plenty of proof on why you need to have different people from different backgrounds and data points and all of that in the room is additive for problem solving. And that's ultimately what we do in the creative industries is problem solve. Well, in my view, using creativity. So yeah, all for that. We belong in the room is my point.

31:50Katy:We do belong in the room. Yeah, we do. And sometimes it feels like we don't belong in the room. I've seen a lot of sexism over the years, particularly with very successful female graphic designers and creative founders. There's like a treatment sometimes that you just wouldn't see a man getting, you know, the same. And the sort of insinuations of how they got there, you know, these brilliant, formidable women. And it just, I can't believe it's still happening in 2025.

32:22Joy Nazzari:I can't either. I mean, the notion that a woman would sleep her way to the top is laughable. Well, apparently no one's having sex these days anyway. Like that's the other statistic to bring in. Oh, really? Well, yeah, that's what they say about the younger generations. They're not drinking, they're not smoking, they're not having sex. What are they doing? I don't know. Watching their TikTok reels. that look all of that I'm just reporting you know what what I'm what people are saying I love it I think it's bollocks obviously but um yes but so the point is though yeah I think there's there is that and I hope we can iron that out I mean do we all need to come out and say I

32:57Katy:didn't sleep my way to the top I know right um I love that you're you've got all these kind of facts to me you sound like somebody who loves loves a good you know like a bit of evidence and

33:09Joy Nazzari:know maybe some survey results oh I I do um well I I read a lot I try to read a lot and also I like to read both sides I don't think that's and I don't people do that enough I agree you know you know I can't do the Daily Mail to be honest but um but you know I will read more right of center newspapers because I I'm a guardian reader like I'm an out-and-out guardian reader but I think if you don't understand some of the other perspectives then you can't actually argue against it. So get knowledgeable. And right now politics is such a shit show that, you know, who knows what everyone's thinking.

33:44Joy Nazzari:Everyone's all over the place. So if you're not reading both sides, I think it's not healthy. So data, I love data.

33:50Katy:Yeah, me too. I completely agree. And I think that's why I subscribe to various different newspapers as well. I think that comes from the journalist background. We always used to go to the newsroom and there'd be all the newspapers from the sun and the mirror right through to the telegraph and the guardian. And so you would sort of see a broad kind of view of what was being observed and reported and I've always carried that with me and I feel very grateful for that because it's I can't remember where I read it but it was somewhere that I read it was so smart it just said the minute you start to be really sort of overconfident with your opinion on anything that's when you should start reading the opposite the opposing view and keep an open mind because you can go into very dangerous territory I think if you go down one wormhole and are not open to other ideas around that subject.

34:39Joy Nazzari:Yeah, I would agree. Inputs are important. I would agree with that.

34:43Katy:Yeah, absolutely. Nuanced debate as well. I hate being shut down when I bring, you know, certain topics up and people are like, no, this is the right. I actually did turn around to a group of people once on a night out and I said, can anybody tell me the right opinion on everything? just so I'm in the clear. Let's get that out of the way.

35:05Joy Nazzari:Yeah, exactly. Well, that's the interesting de-platforming debate, right? I don't know where I sit on it, honestly, because I think there is, when you get to hate speech, it's sort of like, you ought to probably shut that down. But I don't think it's right to shut debate down. So, you know, and the tenet of free speech is hugely important. So it's like, you can't just say, you know free speech is important but only if i agree with you yeah exactly it's um it's a debate is is really it's never been more important surely surely it's never been more important

35:40Katy:well look at where we are and the thing is i think we have to accept that we will be offended you know and yeah that just comes part and parcel of having a free society of free democracy and you know free speech which weirdly free if you say free speech now it's almost like you know you're you're far right it's insane yeah i know that is that is very odd we're that's some sort of trick that's happened there right yeah well we're classic liberals aren't we and that is not what we deemed or grew up to be far right quite the contrary no exactly you know i'm i'm

36:18Joy Nazzari:reading abundance right now so i don't know if you've heard about this book but it's quite an interesting take on basically looking at democrats and what they've what what their approach and what their failures have been and how and actually basically it's not saying this is my own interpretation but it's basically saying this is where we've got wrong gone wrong as democrats this is how we're going to fix it in order to have a great world where we're all doing all right thanks um and it's it's really interesting because it actually out loud as as It's got a liberal bias, obviously, and it's trying to say we're sucking at being liberals.

36:53Joy Nazzari:Like, let's do being liberals better. And it's, I think, a really useful book. I'm only a bit through it, but it's a really useful book to be able to say and assess perhaps, hey, we haven't done things super brilliantly, but let's be okay with we haven't done great. The sort of democratic philosophy hasn't worked in certain areas. How do we do it better? so I think I think this whole team sport of you know we're best is it's unhealthy we're getting it on both sides and in the U.S. unfortunately it feels entirely impossible right now you're you're it's like baseball clubs you know it's you're either on one club or the other and you're one team or the other and never can these two never could you actually say oh I kind of like that policy that they're doing there.

37:43Joy Nazzari:We're oddly seeing a huge shift here all over the map. I mean, my goodness, of politics.

37:50Katy:So it's more debate.

37:52Joy Nazzari:More debate. Yes.

37:53Katy:Debate, definitely. And I think as it's all gone like that very much over the last, what, since 2011, is it? When was the Twitter like button? When did that come in? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think Jonathan High puts all of this madness down to that. But I think it'll come back to a sensible middle at some point. It has to.

38:13Joy Nazzari:It surely can't continue. Can't get weirder, can it?

38:17Katy:Yeah. I mean, let's just hope that the world comes back together and we all just live happily ever after. I mean, wishful thinking.

38:26Joy Nazzari:We've got to try.

38:27Katy:We've got to try.

38:31Katy:This season of the Creative Beam podcast is sponsored by James Cropper. And there's exciting news for anyone working in design. Multiplicity is back. Foil Co.'s much-loved creative event returns this February for the first time since 2019 to mark its 10-year anniversary. And this year, the exclusive paper sponsors are James Cropper and Wintering Company, supporting a night built for designers, illustrators, photographers and artists who want fresh inspiration and real connection. The lineup is outstanding. Uncommon will take the stage with Global Chief Design Officer Lisa Smith and founder Niels Leonard.

39:10Katy:You'll also hear from Porter Rocker with Design Director Joseph Liebus, plus Emma Thomas and Kirstie Carter from A Practice for Everyday Life. And Creative Review's Editor-in-Chief Eliza Williams will host the evening. Multiplicity lands on the 5th of February at the Crypt on the Green in Clerkenwell. Full announcements are coming soon. And a huge thanks to James Cropper for championing the creative community and for creating the papers that help bring our ideas to life. Now, what qualities do you most appreciate in your team? Because you've grown this amazing team over 20 years and obviously people have naturally come and gone and it sounds like you're in a really strong place.

39:57Katy:You've taken on brilliant work. What do you appreciate? What makes, like if I wanted to work at DNCO, what would you look for?

40:08Joy Nazzari:So I think the first thing somehow, when we have freelancers come and work with us, they leave and they always go, God, this is a really nice place to work. So I think we try to be a nice group of humans, sort of as a first port of call. Of course, there is the key aspect you know, to get through the door, we want creative people, we want trustworthy people, that there's a, there's a sort of entry fee, which is how creative, you know, your portfolio. And generally, are you a stand up human? But beyond that, I would say the things I have most valued in people would be probably a tie between two things.

40:50Joy Nazzari:So one would be what I call bias for action. So that's just the people who are fully leaning forward. And, you know, when there's a grenade going off or a nettle to grasp, my favorite British expression, probably, we don't have nettles in America. Oh, right. Okay. You just poison ivy. I mean, so much of that. I grew up covered in poison ivy. Yeah. So it's the leaning back that But I, you know, it's okay to not know how to do things. But most of us are in a fairly constant state of, there's no answer to this. Someone's got to figure it out. So I love people who have a natural bias towards, I think I've got an idea or I'm going to jump on that or give me 10 minutes.

41:37Joy Nazzari:I'm going to think about it. Or I thought about that yesterday already and I've sorted it out is like the dream. So that is gold. Everyone, I think, my colleagues knows that if I go, oh, and they go, Joy, like we sorted that out yesterday, like go away. That is, for me, that's the best moment. I love those moments. So bias for action for me, I'm like gold standard. People who are optimistically charging forward going, I can sort that out. I freaking love that. And obviously, it's a space where you can ask for help and things like that. But lean forward and dig in. And probably if I could, this one's a bit harder.

42:22Joy Nazzari:I don't know how you test for this. But the other thing I love is critical thinking. It's something I think we're seeing sometimes less is when there's something in front of you and you know the client's brief or you know the world today, what's going on. And for people to be able to say, like, we're charging forward on this thing, but I'm just having a little think about that and i'm not sure it's appropriate because the client's trying goals are trying to do this or just some critical it's cool design but just critical thinking to say someone you know that i'm just i thought that through and i'm just not sure i'd love to see more of that happening more of the connecting of the dots so i would say you know bias for action and critical thinking are like solid gold for me.

43:17Katy:Love that. That'll be really encouraging for anyone who wanted to work at a brilliant agency such as yourself. I was doing it last night in the kitchen. I've got this lovely little side project I'm doing for Creative Boom where I've got these beautiful posters printed on colored paper and they have little messages of joy. And I'm going to India on a little holiday with some friends and my husband. And I want to do, I want to hold them up and film them in India in various places and I was making a cup of tea yesterday afternoon and I said to my husband do you think that it's probably a little bit inappropriate like if I'm holding up a colored sheet of paper with optimistic messages and I don't know maybe maybe the background around me isn't right and he said don't worry we'll we've got you back we'll make sure there's no sort of religious spots or you know it's just appropriate and I was like okay cool and it's Just little things like that, isn't it?

44:13Katy:It's when the gut kicks in and you think, yeah, I've got to check myself.

44:18Joy Nazzari:I want people to listen to their gut more and say out loud or just allow for the gut moment thinking. Sometimes people just cruise through. I think that hearing the back of your brain, the stuff is there, but connecting those dots to what you're doing, it's really important.

44:35Katy:yeah it absolutely is and i suppose our guts always tell us when something is off but it gets stronger the more pain and suffering and you know age that we go through well and hopefully

44:51Joy Nazzari:hopefully the gut doesn't turn into the thing that's hitting you in the face too late you know you gotta listen early do you do you think at our age we've kind of do you feel

45:03Katy:really kind of because we'll have gone through our highs and lows personally as well do you feel like this is probably the best stage of our lives oh that's a great question I love that question

45:17Joy Nazzari:I okay yesterday I saw Ashley Judd do you know her the actress yes actor sorry I'm the actor joy okay boomer there you go um she's an actor corrected yourself that's what they would say at least you corrected yourself. Hope aware. She put something up on Instagram. It's her in a bathing suit in all her full glory. And she is just being, being herself. And I, oh God, what was the question? I just, I just love it. Is it the best stage of life? Yeah. I think basically she's, she's saying I'm postmenopausal and I just, I don't care. I don't care. And that She's just foregone all of the care of what other people think.

46:06Joy Nazzari:And so I'm not sure I'm there yet, by the way. I'm definitely not. I haven't leveled up that much as a human or a woman. But I really appreciated her yesterday. I was like, you're living your best life and you stopped caring. So there is a thing, hopefully, at this stage you start, you know, I'm not sure I always really cared what everybody thought. I care about the impact of what we're doing and that it leads to something good. I really, really care about that. But do I need like personal sort of validation and all that? I don't know. But I'm feeling that I'm going to need a lot less of any of that as I get older.

46:42Joy Nazzari:So that's quite fun. Can you just start putting yourself out more? Can you start doing video instead of audio only, Katie? So I think that's, I do like that. at some point you have to decide i've been in this skin a long time and i gotta be comfortable in it now if otherwise you know so you're a weirdo you're a grown-up now you've got to be a grown-up now yeah so yeah we're coming into the best years i think i think so i think i don't know

47:11Katy:it's a woman thing people pleasing trying to sort of like you know not tread on any toes water ourselves down so everybody else feels comfortable and now i feel like put makeup on Makeup on, stay slim. You know, I was having a conversation with my brother and his wife and they're 10 years. Well, my brother's seven years younger than me. My sister-in-law's 10 years younger than me. And I was saying, oh, you know, I'm going on camera now. It's so unfair. I've got all the confidence to go on camera. But I noticed my jowls and my face is sagging. And I realized I've got wrinkles and I smile here. And when did that happen?

47:47Katy:And they were like, just stop. Just stop. Listen to yourself. and you're repeating women who are older than you what they've always said you know impossible standards beauty standards and having to look a certain way just stop and yeah and she said look at all the women that are that are your age who who do just disappear and think of the people that you might be inspiring by showing up more and i was like oh i didn't really see it that way before Oh, okay. All right, I'll shut the fuck up.

48:18Joy Nazzari:Yeah. Well, the other thing is, I think we, you know, we obsess about this stuff. But I'm pretty sure no one's looking. No one cares. No one cares. Look at you.

48:27Katy:You look fabulous. Oh, I don't know about that.

48:29Joy Nazzari:I could have probably shown up a bit better.

48:31Katy:Oh, come on. Stop it now.

48:33Joy Nazzari:You're as bad as me. I don't care. I don't care. I think this is a thing. Yeah. I love this. I'm wearing a sweatshirt that is my mom's. My mom gave it to me. she's like I don't like it you're gonna have it so I'm wearing a hand-me-down from my 82 year old mom and I sounds freaking love it um I actually got complimented on the other day I was like this is my mom's like it was a hand-me-down um I feel kind of I love it um she'll listen to this and she'll be so pleased I'm wearing it um she'll be like what were you doing she'll say what were you

49:03Katy:doing wearing a sweatshirt sorry sorry for swearing Joy's mom oh no she'll love that she'll love it she's fine with that fab I feel like the older I get as well the more I do sort of celebrate the fact that I am a woman you know I've given myself permission to lean into that and say oh you know yeah we this is my identity okay I'm allowed to do that that's interesting and then as part of that I've looked at all these formidable women like Joanna Lumley you know all the amazing women I really admire actresses Kate Winslet you know Sigourney Weaver all these amazing powerful women I grew up with who were very successful and lord knows what they had to go through Dolly Parton oh yeah I love her I love her totally yeah and uh all the Amy Poehler she's got a new podcast which is just brilliant so it's yeah it's an interesting thing to look back and say okay so I spent that good portion of my life trying to figure who out who I was and I've realized I don't need to figure out who I am just be and all the confidence that I lacked is now replaced with a ton of courage and basically I don't care.

50:19Joy Nazzari:Yeah, a heavy dose of I don't care is good.

50:22Katy:Oh, I just don't care. It's great. It's liberating. Yeah, it totally is. It totally is. I'm looking forward to my period stopping. Oh, I know. I know. God.

50:31Joy Nazzari:Help me figure this one out, though.

50:33Katy:Okay.

50:34Joy Nazzari:So we have our strategy team, we rebranded as, so we used to be DN and Co, as you know. and we rebranded to DNCO, which there were lots of reasons to do that. And I honestly, I always wanted that. So I'm super happy with it. As part of that, we did some real messaging propositions for our business, et cetera. And one of the things that the strategy team came out with was female founded. And I immediately was like, no, no, we're not. I had such a visceral to the whole thing. And they, they, they obviously knew it was going to happen. And they just looked at me and they're like, it's not for you and it's not your decision, basically.

51:12Joy Nazzari:I was like, oh. Okay. And what they said was, you know, it's the women who work here and the women who interview to work here, they like it. So if you want to continue to have this great 50-50 gender split, like, you need to be okay with that. Lean into it. And by the way, you probably have lean into it. And so I immediately was like, oh, okay, if it serves a role for us and for other women, fantastic, let's do it. Now, what's happened in the last couple of weeks, we did an RFP. And there's a slide in our decks that we, the one, you know, you tried to pull 80 % of it from existing stuff. There's a slide in there that says, you know, based in London, New York, female founded, blah, blah, blah, etc.

51:53Joy Nazzari:And we were pitching to an organization that is very male, very, very male. It's sports related. And actually, it's run by an American man. And I said to everyone, should we take that out then, everyone? Like, this is totally normal. Like, this is a whole blokey thing. Like, let's not have the female found it. It's not relevant or appropriate, right? And I think everyone looked at me like horrified that I'm editing this out because I think it doesn't serve us. It actually probably is going to be. So I think I have my own little - Was that the okay boomer moment? Well, no. I mean, I think we left it in.

52:30Joy Nazzari:Actually, I think when I looked at what we submitted, it was left in. And I was like, oh, God. Like, I hope they don't. I think I'm being worried about being called woke. You know what I mean? So, and why do I care? Because I am totally woke anyway. So it's just, I hate the, I think it's so political.

52:45Katy:Either side or just pitching against each other. It's awful. I know. So anyway. You can be woke. It's fine.

52:51Joy Nazzari:Yeah. So I'll let you know. I'll follow up with you to let you know if we won. And if we won, notwithstanding having put a slide in that says female founded, then everything's okay. I think. We'll see. I love that. We lost.

53:04Katy:Let's see what happens. If you lose, then it's just down to that and that alone. It won't be. I hope not.

53:11Joy Nazzari:God. No, I hope not. I hope not. I'll keep you posted.

53:14Katy:Yeah, I'm looking forward to hearing it. So when you look back, it's, you know, 20 years. There's got to be like this. I mean, I'm always interested to hear this because, I mean, I'm obviously running something and the amount of time and sacrifice, you don't do this unless you love it. but there's always another aspect another ingredient to the fuel to your flame I mean you obviously love what you do but what keeps you going what are you striving for are you trying to are you trying to prove yourself like maybe I am maybe I can't believe I just admitted that on the podcast or is it something else well I have an answer to this but it's going

53:57Joy Nazzari:to get heavy. So are you ready? I'm ready. Okay. So my dad was an alcoholic and in the eighties, he was tremendously successful. And then he lost his job due to alcoholism, which is a disease. And it was, you know, catastrophic to him and it was fairly final for his career. I mean, he sort of, he did continue to work, but his rise and rise and rise as a, as a career guy, it just never really recovered in the late 80s. And I remember the 80s being that time of frothy abundance. And it was amazing to be in California in the 80s. And it created a really shocking, I suppose, change for us as a family.

54:43Joy Nazzari:And I don't think I really took it in at the time in this way, But certainly when it came to working and to being independent and then having a family, the number one thing that has always been necessary for me is that sort of resilience of income. So it is really not very sexy to talk about, Katie. You know, it's like this probably the thing a psychologist would say feels me is the need to have security. and golly, I don't know what to tell you, but that's like, that, then it's the facts. I am absolutely certain that when everything is going well, I feel great. And when things are a bit shaky, I know what's coming, what's bubbling up is this, I don't want to be like my dad was, you know, I don't want to let anyone down.

55:36Joy Nazzari:I don't want to ever feel or face a sense of financial insecurity. So I don't have any like great desires to be like spectacularly wealthy and yachts and Ferraris. I have, that doesn't like, that doesn't fill my brain dream. Travel, yes, I'd love to do lots of that. Thanks. But, but I, it, what really, like everything's okay. There's security.

56:04Katy:That's, that's it. That's the thing. That's the thing.

56:06Joy Nazzari:That's the answer.

56:07Katy:Security. Yeah, absolutely. That's the driver. It's all we want, isn't it? I think so.

56:12Joy Nazzari:Well, it's like the basic Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right? You just need a sense of security. So I am personally very, very interested in identity for places and how people relate to those probably as a clear factor of never having really belonged very well. So the sense of belonging, I love all that. I've made a whole career out of a sense of belonging and how you develop a sense of belonging for places that people can feel they belong to. So I love that piece. But what's underneath all of that is just like a desperate need to feel financially secure. So yeah, there you go. That's the I don't think I've ever told anyone on on a podcast that before.

56:51Joy Nazzari:But that's you asked me. So there you go.

56:53Katy:I love it. I love it. It's just very honest. I'm not PR at all. It's just very, very heartfelt.

56:59Joy Nazzari:That definitely didn't make it through the PR advice. I think.

57:04Katy:no well do you know it makes for a boring podcast when people are media trained

57:08Joy Nazzari:no well there you go i'm a cowgirl right now it's just like whatever who cares who cares has got to be the theme of this podcast right i don't know who cares absolutely we're in our

57:18Katy:laundry yeah we're in our best oh that actually the previous guest was matt baxter of baxter and bailey and he's doing the design laundry and he said if anybody's got any stories then they should go on the designlaundry.com there you go matt i told you i'd look out for you um nice oh i love it and maybe you could do that yeah okay i might i might share a few of my own stories you can do it anonymously as well if you want to oh yeah is it like think bad things because

57:48Joy Nazzari:i've got like really embarrassing things embarrassing mistakes things like an email

57:53Katy:that shouldn't have been sent to the book got sent to the client by mistake i've got a great

57:59Joy Nazzari:one i'm gonna call him oh yeah you should do you should he's turning it into something bigger i

58:04Katy:think um i mean he's already done so much with it which is great but anyway so since we're talking about two decades of dnco um if you look back on it all if you could go back to your 30 year old self when you started it as you know you've you've sort of yeah joy from the future what would you say

58:26Joy Nazzari:to her well okay what would I say to myself so firstly um don't overreact oh I'm actually naturally fairly hot-blooded and I think it's taken me a long time uh so we we've just had this little conference and um the it turns out we had two cameras we filmed it all and it turns out that one of the cameras that filled filmed directly on face on um it was completely corrupted we didn't get a single second of footage on that camera for a whole day which is a real drag you know paid

59:04Katy:someone professionally for they were really great they've you know they've been good to us but

59:08Joy Nazzari:my colleague jack he just he looked at me ashen and i you know he was so distraught all this planning. And he is at the beginning of his career. And I just looked at him and said, look, the great thing about this is there is literally nothing you can do about it. So your energy, don't waste your energy on that because it's being spent for no value. You get no return on that energy. So you're just going to have to just go, that sucked. And the quicker you can close the gap between there's nothing I can actually do about that, but I can absolutely affect what I do next. And if I kick and scream and if I'm a shit or, you know, if I bark at someone or if I yell at a client, I have to say, I've been pretty frustrated with clients in the early years of my career.

59:54Joy Nazzari:And that's dumb. Like I look back and I'm like, oh my God, it took you so long to get that relationship back on track because you were like, I want it my way. And I delivered that in a really shitty way. So the first thing I would say is like, just chill out, Jake. Like, you know, you, you don't need to freak out when you don't get your way. And I didn't, I wasn't like emotional and freaking out. I'm making myself sound like a girl. I sounded like a girl. But, but I think I would say like, you know, if you don't get your way or if things don't go quite your way, it's like, it's okay. I can't, I don't cry anymore at things.

1:00:24Joy Nazzari:Like in my early career, if things didn't get my way, I would cry. We nearly got sued. Well, we did kind of get sued early in my career. Definitely. I cried for days and I look back and I'm like, I would have been in tears. Yeah. It was like, it was an accident. Like this thing happened. It was bad luck. It was in another country and it really sucked. And I look back and I sort of think we dealt with it in a really wonderful way. And it all kind of worked out. But at first, it was like, this feels really big. So I think the first thing I'd say is, if no one's done, unless someone's died, like then, you know, go all out on your emotions.

1:00:54Joy Nazzari:But unless that, then probably joy, you're gonna be fine. Like just relax for a little and also just go walk around the block for a little bit. Yeah. I, the couple of things I would have invested a little bit better on one is I probably would have given people other people accountability much faster. I think that is so important. We, Ben and I had a, we made a decision really early on that we would go to all the client meetings and we would protect designers from the scary clients. That was actually what we said to each other. It was a deliberate strategy. So sweet. Which is so sweet. And it's also terrible because what you're doing to the, you're or hear the crap that some clients sometimes say, and it's not crap, sometimes it's really very valuable, but it sounds like crap.

1:01:46Joy Nazzari:And you have to go back and say, I don't agree with that, but I really want to do well by my client. And if you're translating for you're trying to be sensitive to the designer's feelings, it's just they do not learn, they have to hear it like straight up, this is what the client's saying. So I would have tried to have more accountability for people sooner. I would have delegated more sooner. And that's how people grow is you give them bits of accountability they're probably not even ready for. And then they level up themselves. That's really good. So I would have taken more people to meetings earlier.

1:02:23Joy Nazzari:I would have delegated more. And then the last thing I probably would have done is actually a really weird one, which is you meet a lot of people in your career. And when you're early in your career, I don't think you fully appreciate how important those connections are and to keep them and to covet them. So I think we look at projects often as like a transaction. I'm hired. I deliver. Job's done. I don't need to talk to that person anymore or ever again. By the way, that is really dumb because what you really want is get a job, do a phenomenal job, make a great friend out of that client, get next job.

1:03:02Joy Nazzari:That's how that is. That's the chessboard. And if you're not playing that chessboard, then you're not going to grow a business very well. But all those connections, you know, I'm still working. In fact, we've got a mega project in Shanghai right now. It's an awesome project. The guy who is our client there was one of my very first clients in my mid-20s. So I've been working with him for 20 years. Over 20 years, in fact, because he predates Dan Siu. and um we marvel at it's like hey you know we've worked with somebody on so many projects over the years together i know his wife um you know it's it's that is that's that it's priceless so yeah i would say i would go back there are a lot of people i worked with early in my career who i probably didn't keep and covet as connections and clients and the connections probably a little bit severed if i was like hey it's joy remember me i would look really really uncool.

1:03:59Joy Nazzari:So, so I think all these like LinkedIn is, is, you know, it is what it is, but actually keeping in touch with people and dropping people a note being like, Hey, saw this thing you did, it was really cool. Like, it's amazing how much that actually is. It's a huge key to success. I would have, I would have coveted my connections even more.

1:04:22Katy:Well, I think you've done a pretty damn good job for 20 years and to survive and pivot and be where you are now I mean joy you thank you it's been ace watching your journey unfold and uh you'll carry on for a good long time yet I can

1:04:37Joy Nazzari:imagine I think so and and the tiresome thing I think about me and um and I know that my my colleagues see this is I kind of always have another thing I want to do yeah so um I have a few of those still. And my husband and I have got a little thing we want to start, a small, small software business. And I think that's, that's, I will, I'm not ready to retire. I think what we'll see is like, I just like to do new things. I'm interested in, I'm obsessed with businesses and I like businesses getting involved in them, problem solving. So that's where I'm most excited.

1:05:16Katy:We're too young to think about retirement. Come on.

1:05:19Joy Nazzari:I think then I oh actually the idea of it sounds really good I'm like oh my goodness put my feet up you know hand me a you know nice cup of tea and I've watched a twix bar yeah every day but when my husband turned 50 we went on a sabbatical and the a really interesting thing happened on that sabbatical it was it was long I think I think it was six or eight weeks of somewhere. I've already forgotten. It was a few years ago. Nice. Six weeks, six weeks. And I was at the end, my brain was really mushy. So I would say six weeks. And then if you think about like completely retiring, your brain actually, you need to continue to have things that take your brain over.

1:06:03Joy Nazzari:Otherwise your brain goes soft. I think it's really important. And I think that all the Alzheimer's studies say as much, right? So the Sudoku thing is silly maybe, but people who do daily Sudoku, maybe less correlation to Alzheimer's, don't quote me on that. It's very shady fact. It's definitely not true.

1:06:23Katy:Bringing out the facts again. I know.

1:06:25Joy Nazzari:Well, in my family, it's called the Joy's Shady Book of Facts. So definitely don't quote me on that one. But I I think that it's important to keep your brain going. My stepdad is 83, I think. He's 83 and he still works. He's a very desirable court translator. And they would have him every hour of the day if they could. He speaks fluent Spanish and English. And he picks his time and he's like super switched on. And I think the reason why they're doing so well is because both my stepdad and my mom in their 80s, they're busy. they're doing stuff. So yeah, I mean, I'm not even 50 yet. So that we've got too long to let our brains go soft yet.

1:07:10Katy:Yeah, exactly. Yeah, we're only just getting started, I think.

1:07:15Joy Nazzari:I think so. Well, we, you know, the government's going to have us working as long as we can, right? That's the, that's the stance. So 20 years of maybe some sort of career or a new career, I think, you know, is really interesting. I'd really like to do NEDS. Do you know, non-exec directorships. I think that's... Yes. I did the, this was a bit of joy madness of like, oh, this is the new joy thing. I did the FT's non-exec director diploma. Amazing. Which I did, by the way, completely out of a weird ego moment where I applied for a trusteeship of a major cultural organization. I didn't get it. They did actually take me on as a consultant, which was very sweet of them.

1:07:54Joy Nazzari:But I noticed that one of the Neds is a high-flying WPP woman, and she had this FTNED diploma on her LinkedIn. And so I was like, oh, I better do that. So I paid the money and signed up. I basically didn't look at the curriculum. And it turns out to be a six-month, level six, basically master's diploma. You don't have a master's at the end of it, but you have a master's level bit of something. And do you know what? It was really challenging. It was great. It turned all my little lights on. I loved it. Onboarded a lot of data, learned a lot about behavioral science, which was something I didn't know I needed at that point in my life, but I did.

1:08:33Joy Nazzari:And anyway, my point is to say, so if nothing else, I'm really interested in NED ships where, you know, you can, you can then sit on other people's businesses and go, Oh, you guys have an opportunity here. You should push that direction. You know, you should go there. Like, this is how you solve that, or you're missing these 10 people in that department. And so I love getting into the gangrene of problems and also checking out opportunities and trying to help businesses then do that. I don't know, it'd be fun. Don't you want to do that? You kind of do that. You kind of do that on this podcast.

1:09:06Joy Nazzari:Yeah. It's like a counseling

1:09:07Katy:session sometimes as well. I'm sure. I'm sure. Exactly. I love it. I don't think I'll ever stop. I really enjoy what I do. I feel very privileged and I'm sure you do too. And Joy, sadly, it's time to say goodbye. Oh, it's been such a pleasure chatting.

1:09:23Joy Nazzari:We'll have to do this over lunch one day as well. I would love to. We have more.

1:09:28Katy:We do. We can put the world to rights. Thank you for being on the podcast. It's a pleasure. Thank you.

1:09:38Katy:Big thanks to Joy for that masterclass in creative leadership. Say less, think harder, move faster and protect the work by protecting your pace. you'll find dnco and joy in the show notes go follow their projects and keep an eye on that vermont launch if you enjoyed this episode share it with a friend leave a quick rating and tag me so i can say thanks we'll be back on thursday with another spark and joy will be joining us once again until then i'm off to have a brew and i'll see you very soon

1:10:18Katy:thanks again to james cropper for sponsoring this season of the creative boom podcast remember its color source range gives designers direct access to 50 beautiful shades and a choice of textures all crafted in the lake district and delivered straight to your door explore the collection and bring your next project to life at paper and packaging dot james cropper dot com