Why Starting From Scratch Might Be the Best Thing That Ever Happens to You, with Rob Draper

0:06Katy Cowan:Hello again, it's me, it's Katy Cowan and this is the Creative Boom podcast. And this one's a bit of a bit of sweet one this week because it's our season finale. Oh yes, the last in the series, the last of us. So if you've stuck with us these past three months, thank queue but let's go out on a high because our guest this week is the wonderful Rob Draper, lettering artist, designer and an actual fellow of the University of Worcester. Oh fancy, where he now lectures on a master's in creative identity but don't worry he wears it lightly, that's just how Rob is, very chilled out, very laid back. But here's the thing about this person.

0:53Katy Cowan:Ten years ago, he was the art director of a fashion brand right at the top of the snakes and ladders board. Do you remember that? I used to play it with my grandma and grandad back in the day. Anyway, he was then made redundant at 40 and he slid all the way back to square one, which if you have played the game is heartbreaking. He cleared out a warehouse waiting for work that never came and when nothing turned up, not one little thing, he made himself one promise. Try anything, turn down nothing because action, well it creates action doesn't it? So he did. He taught art in a men's prison, he drew on Starbucks cups which is how the whole thing went viral, he learned sign writing from a canal barge painter and hand-painted branding on skateboard ramps for Superdry.

1:46Katy Cowan:Anything that came his way, he basically said yes. We get into all of that, the messy middle of a creative life, redundancy, divorce, losing the house, starting again on a camp bed at his sister's house. And we talk about what success even means once you can't afford the trappings of it. There's the creative toolbox, baby steps over big leaps and kicking enough balls at goal that eventually one goes in. If you're facing a bit of uncertainty right now, and I know a lot of us are, this one's for you. The theme is creating something from nothing. So here's Rob.

2:31Katy Cowan:This episode is sponsored by Adobe Firefly, the all-in-one creative AI studio. now with brand new agentic capabilities that can handle multi-step creative tasks across Photoshop, Premiere, Illustrator and more. Whether you're a designer, filmmaker or content creator, Firefly is built to move at your pace and keep your creative voice front and centre. Find out more at the link in the show notes.

3:00Katy Cowan:Rob, it is so nice to see you again. How are you doing? I'm good, thank you. I'm good. How are you? I'm good. I find that the more I talk to you, the more my slight Birmingham twang comes out a little bit. You're based in Worcester, aren't you? I am based in Worcester, yeah. 26 miles away from Birmingham. Well, I know. This is the thing. This is what us northerners do. We just merge you all into the same region and it's very insulting. Do you call old people twirlies where you live? I've never even heard that term. So that's a kidderminster thing. Oh, really? yeah they call old people twirlies because they get up too early no but I do get up early so well there you go what are you a kind of like 5am kind of kid or yeah yeah yeah yeah I'm kind of up and out yeah amazing do you do you go to the gym do you go out on your bike uh I used to run I used to run I used to distance run I used to run marathons um my knee would suggest to me that I don't run marathons anymore.

4:03And so I swim now. I swim. Yeah.

4:06Katy Cowan:Oh, okay. Nice. Have you got a nice swimming bath there? Is it like an outdoor Lido or something like that? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. None of that. No, no, no, no. No, sadly, no, no. Just a normal swimming pool. Yeah. Nice. Okay. I was conjuring up all these sort of like, you know, nice images in my head. It's like a sort of misty landscape with the, you know, mist hanging over the water. No, no, no, no, no. I know I usually walk the dog and then it's off to the yeah you know it's just a local kind of whatever it would be council pool yeah sounds great anyway I like Worcester I've always I've always loved that part of the world um people are great obviously um of course did you grow up there I did yeah yeah yeah so why did you never leave because a lot of people did you leave sorry apologies I sort uh no I um I sort of had a stint after I left university of being down in London I was a magazine designer for a while in London.

5:01And from there, I kind of came back to Worcester. We started a business in Worcester. So we had an agency here. And it's just suited me ever since. My family was here, my life, house, dog, et cetera. So wife previously. And so it just suited me to be here. And then obviously over time, you don't really need to be anywhere anymore for work. you can travel and obviously do things online. So it's just suited me to be here.

5:30Katy Cowan:Yeah, I mean, I bet you felt a bit smug when everybody was moving out of London during the pandemic. You thought, well, I did that a long time ago. Yeah, yeah, told you. Yeah, it's better, promise. Absolutely. Did you go through that phase that people go through when they're in London? Like, oh, I can never leave here. Like everybody, everywhere else is never going to be as good. Or was that never a case with you? No, because I was never there. I was never there. I would go down for the work and then come away again. And so it never really was a thing. Never, never really was a thing. And it was only because of kind of the work I was doing.

6:00So I've never really formed a proper life down there.

6:03Katy Cowan:No, well, that's good to know. I'm always curious about why people move around and why they leave, why they go. And the reason why we're chatting with you today is because there's a lot of stuff going on in the industry at the moment. People are sadly being made redundant. um agencies are shrinking in some fields and things are changing because of ai and various other outside influences the economy all stuff and not to sort of make everybody depressed you know i'm reeling out a load of list here but it's the reality and there'll be people listening to this thinking of going freelance and they've been forced into going freelance because there's uh no jobs available um where they are but you know only too well about creating something from nothing don't you yeah and I was kind of weirdly because I was made what started my journey in this was I was made redundant it's really funny because it felt like the worst thing ever at the time it felt like a terrible terrible thing I felt like I'd um and it's something I speak about where I felt like I'd spent my life going up a bit down a bit on like a snakes and ladders board and then I got right to the top where I was like I found this perfect job I was an art director of a fashion brand and um and then i was on the snake and i went all the way back to the start and um and i was i was completely completely devastated but however you know it turned into being probably one of the best things that's ever happened to me so yeah it was a really really difficult time so i know what those feelings are like when you sort of like you feel like you've had the rug pulled out from under you and um and creatively obviously it yeah it's the lack of opportunity in this area it was a nightmare for me at the time.

7:43Katy Cowan:And it's changed so much, hasn't it? I mean, when was that? What year? So I can sort of reference. So that was probably about 10 years ago now. Yeah, probably just about 10 years ago. It's changed, changed so much during that time. It changes, yeah, it changes. I mean, it changes. It doesn't even change by the year anymore. It changes by every six months. I think the lack of opportunity now for creatives, the difficulty that young creatives are facing, age is shrinking. I think it's a really, really difficult time. Yeah, it really is. And I see it because I chat with people and I get emails through and we've got the community now where everyone's chatting in there every day.

8:23Katy Cowan:And so you get a real kind of flavour for how everyone's doing out there. I think they're saying now that kids who leave university now are probably going to have 20 different jobs during their lifetime. But what would those jobs be as well? you know which is the next thing you know will there be 20 jobs at a point you know yeah are we all going to be on universal basic income and yeah yeah yeah skipping around green fields it doesn't sound so bad no no i think it's a it is a really good time however to be a creative i think it's a really really good time i think one of the things that we uh that we understand that we want from creatives is authenticity now and I think I think that if we can sort of find that within ourselves and push towards that I think that's really important and I think it's a really important thing moving forward I think obviously my thing my thing has become kind of process everything is about the process everything's about that journey within within work and I think for creatives to try and find that in themselves I think it's a really really strong thing and I think it's something that should be pushed as much as possible and I think also there are a thousand different ways you can get out there now you know back when I was young it was much much different you know there was no internet or you know anything at all like that you know and you have to do these certain things you you had to be a graphic designer or you had to be a photographer or you know you had to be a um retoucher or you had to be an artist or you know you can be any of those things and 50 more things now under your one brand.

10:00And I think that's something that has changed. And that's really, really exciting. It can be an exciting time from my point of view.

10:08Katy Cowan:Yeah, you're right. And you think about all the jobs that are no longer now compared to back then. There's a lot of doom and gloom, but I'm seeing sort of glimmers of hope with more people coming out and saying, well, actually, it's not going to be the catastrophe that everybody makes out it to be. If anything, the thing that distinguishes us from AI and technology is us, you know, human craft. And I think the value of what we do is now so much higher. It's just that there are all these other factors at play that are causing the industry to shrink and struggle. um i don't know whether ai is is as impactful as we might think i i do think the economy is just really struggling yeah and i think it's very much like um the issue i think is on a really small scale it's very much like um sign writers and vinyl uh vinyl signs and shops so you know years ago people would say you know i really you know i really want the sign the shop and my shop sign done and they'd be like okay well this is like a thousand pounds and they'd say well i can do it in vinyl and it's 50 pounds and then people would be like let's just do the vinyl thing and i think it's the same sort of thing whereby unfortunately because money's always an issue people oft will naturally often go for the cheaper thing but it doesn't mean that there aren't still people having you know lovely signs put on their shops and i think that feels the same to me as the whole big AI argument you know a lot of the smaller uh jobs will go because it would just be much cheaper to kind of um to do them that way but I think there'll always be a reason for kind of um and an appreciation for the for craft and doing it actually properly so if um somebody has been made redundant I mean looking at your own story how how did you cope when that happened to you What was the sort of moment where you realized, actually, if I'm going to, you know, survive, pay my bills, I've got to do something?

12:14I just tried things. I just tried things. And I think I had a period of time where I was, the company I was working for, I asked if I could stay on and clear out the warehouse because I thought, OK, that will give me two months of money. And they were like, we'll put you on a minimum wage or whatever. And I thought, I'll sort it out. It's going to be fine. something's going to come up I've got two months everything's going to be fine it's going to be absolutely fine and that time passed and the warehouse was empty and nothing had come up at all and I was like oh no I was like nothing not even not a slight thing and so I thought well I'm just going to I'm just going to try things I'm going to try things and I'm not going to turn down anything and I'll see where that gets me that was my entire thing is I'm just going to try and get connected with things and and see see what happens and and and it was simply that you know I went off and um I started doing teaching I started doing sign writing I went off and learned with a canal barge painter how to do proper sign writing wow I I carried on doing graphic design I did graphic design sort of semi-anonymously for like brands and things like that so it wasn't attached to my name or anything um like literally absolutely anything that came my way I helped the team at uh super dry painting branding uh hand painting branding on um skateboard ramps just literally anything that came my way i just i just like yeah that's fine let's do it let's do it let's do it um i started to get sessions working in uh men's prison teaching uh doing art and design sessions in men's prison um just and literally anything just that sounds fascinating by the way

13:51Katy Cowan:the prison thing i'd really enjoy that you know helping yeah it's the weirdest it's it's such a strange environment to work in such a really really it's just you know you sort of um yeah you don't the first time you go in like every time you you sort of you're walking across the building and just have to go through a series of doors and doors and doors and doors and doors get locked yeah it's just it's yeah it's just a really really unique environment nothing i've never in an environment like it. That's why I've stayed on the straight and narrow, Rob. The idea of being in a prison. And that's why you should.

14:26Katy Cowan:Absolutely. Gosh. It's just making me chuckle because one of the questions in the chain reaction with the other guests was from Malika Favre and she asked, what was the last thing you stole? Yeah. I was like a block of marzipan when I was 16. Marzipan? I had the munchies. but marzipan i love marzipan what's wrong with marzipan everyone's always like why did you buy like why did you steal some marzipan because i like marzipan yeah i've just yeah i could just say crisps or chocolate or something yeah but that's no marzipan yeah and ate the whole thing there's this does a whole we need to turn the podcast this is a ridiculously interesting story yeah I mean I was I was you know young young and silly and foolish but uh it's what made me who I am today you know we like your kind of experience what you went through and uh the struggle the struggle helped you like find a way through and I think that's what a lot of people are going to go through now in the next year or two they're gonna have to do the same thing and And it's not that daunting, is it?

15:40Katy Cowan:It's not once you're in it. Well, I think it can be when you're in it. Sometimes you just need to come up for air. But at the same point in time, the struggle is the thing, isn't it? You know, you have to, you know, unfortunately, we have to kind of accept that there will be that kind of chaos along the way. And you sort of have to just get through it and see, you know, see what you're like on the other side of that. So, yeah, it's a tricky one. I always liken it to this sort of bridge, which had like, you know, see through platform in the Alps, in the Swiss Alps. And for me, that was what my whole journey has been.

16:20Katy Cowan:It's like, just keep looking ahead. Don't look down. Just keep looking ahead. One step in front of the other. Keep going. Don't think about what's behind you. Don't think about what's in front of you. Just right now, just keep going. Try not to overthink it. Yeah, 100%. I'm a true believer that always baby steps, you know, always baby steps. Just keep going forward as much or as little as you can, but just keep trying to kind of move forward. Keep learning. Yeah, absolutely. When was the moment when you kind of thought, okay, I'm not struggling anymore. This is good. Or has that never come? well no there's a really funny answer because there there was um there's two there's two answers to that the first one is exactly as you said I I still feel like I go through that creative tension in myself anyway you know in my work and and and I've learned to accept that and I've learned to accept that that's probably how I'll how I am and that's how I'll be and actually sometimes I can find the best outcomes for my work from being in that space so that's yeah that's one of those difficult truths that after it's just a completely accept but but the irony is when i so again talking about my story without going into things i've spoken about before but um when i suddenly and when it felt like that that struggle was over i then went through a um i went through a divorce and um and and all of a sudden i lost my house and blah blah blah blah blah blah and um and then it was like it was it was kind of like oh oh this this is that struggle again you know so So it was just when I'd lost my job and all of a sudden I was like, okay, things are cool, that things went like really, really back to square one for me.

18:01Katy Cowan:Wow. I think that's the moment. Personally, I think when we grow up, when we really do become an adult, when we realize that life isn't this kind of trajectory upwards towards an ultimate goal of happiness. it's going to be up and it's going to be down and there's going to be things that fly in from nowhere and it's those sort of things that help build resilience and teach you the biggest lessons in life and help you help you just survive really a hundred percent and i think we've we've become fooled by looking spending our lives looking through the lens of social media at perfection and and thinking that's how it is and as you say it's this really kind of linear trail of like up a bit, up a bit, up a bit, up a bit, up a bit, up a bit, all the way to the end and you get this kind of life trophy and it's kind of, it just doesn't, it doesn't work like that or it doesn't work like that for a lot of the people that I seem to have spoken to anyway.

18:53And it's about when it doesn't look like that, what do you then do and how do you then do and how do you then stay creative and how do you then kind of find a way out of it?

19:04Katy Cowan:there's a lot of pressure on us creatives to be successful inverted commas and I've been talking about this with personally with friends like what is success I've got a couple of friends who are thinking about moving to Portugal and getting an EU passport you know becoming citizens I've got a friend who's thinking of going to Italy similar vibe he's sort of really kind of rejected the big house, the fancy car, you know, all of these other things and has just found that time is the most valuable, precious thing. And he's really sort of, I don't think chatting with him and with my own kind of struggle with this, it's really hard to shrug off those expectations of where you think you should be by now at my age, 47.

19:54Katy Cowan:Forgive me, I don't know how old you are, robin i would never ask a gentleman but no no but you're absolutely you're absolutely right you're absolutely you're completely completely right the the sort of um the idea of where we think we should be and and i think when i went through my thing um and i can remember it really really well it's like i had friends at the time who were like because they were um so i'm just over 50 now and i had friends at the time who were congratulations you made it i did thank you i I had friends who were like buying sports cars or friends who were buying like a little cottage by the in Devon or whatever, blah, blah, blah, blah.

20:32And I was like, um, at the time, like I lost my house and I, my house had gone and I was living on a camp bed and at my sister's. And, and it was just like, so I couldn't have these things. Do you know what I mean? I couldn't have any, any of these, these, these trappings of kind of success. And so I was kind of like, okay, well, I need to be, I need to think different and I need to find my motive. if my motivation is attached to one of these things, then I'm never going to get there at this stage anyway. So I was kind of like, well, that needs to change. I need to change my mindset and I need to find a different way through in a different way that ultimately, because there's a challenge isn't there as a creative.

21:10There's a challenge in creating work that pleases you. But obviously you need to find a form of commercial outlet for that because it needs to generate money in order for you to kind of carry on doing it and live that life. And so, yeah, it just meant everything has to change for me.

21:28Katy Cowan:It's how you, what you've gone through at the time as well. It's so easy to forget what you took for granted or what you didn't have prior. I mean, I remember being 22 and just wanting my own little flat, you know, not be in a kind of bed sit where I had to wipe the black and green mould around the window off every morning and then wash that towel again and again. and just not wanting to be in debt. And then suddenly you find yourself, you know, 25 years later in a nice house and you're like, oh, I could just do with a one bed flat. That would be really, really nice. You know, no mortgage, I think at this stage and I can escape, get rid of the car.

22:09Katy Cowan:I mean, is it no wonder that those YouTube channels where people have like basically ditched the kind of conventional path and maybe bought a canal barge or a van and they've gone off under this thing they get millions of views we can't be the only people who go through this no no no I think there is a but there is definitely a thing of like escapism isn't there of watching other people and sort of putting your you know even if you don't actually do it yourself giving yourself that kind of mindset that you could do it you know and I think that's um but yeah I think yeah it's it's yeah it's a strange thing it's just because you do have to find out yeah what what ultimately what motivates you yeah what's important to you yeah what what becomes important to you yeah what what and what feels authentic i think as well definitely and i think if if we go down the path of oh the house has to get bigger and bigger and on a nicer and nicer street and we've got to buy these things and go on these amazing holidays that can sort of tip the balance and it can mean that your creativity suffers because you have to sort of take on jobs that you would otherwise have said no thanks yeah and i've been almost at a point um i think i've been quite fortunate with that because i didn't have those those trappings of wealth i didn't have it suffocating me that i had to take things i didn't want to take you know i just it was i think sometimes if you've got yeah if you've developed a lifestyle that um that commands a certain amount of money then that is a real problem for you because if you're not yeah what do you do to get that money and i think sometimes as creatives knowing the creative industry anyways it's like an absolute roller coaster um by starting again small as i did it meant that i could be kind of um i could spend time because i think the thing is for my work a lot of the work i get is by clients seeing my personal work my my my personal projects and so I need to generate myself the time and the space to create those things because I understand that they are the thing that would generally get me commercial work yeah absolutely sounds like you've got a good balance and I think yeah I think I think it's easy to fall into that trap though of like I must to have more I must do more it must be seen to be more it's more successful and it's it's an interesting one that I'm mulling over myself at the moment I just think with everything that's changing I think probably now is not the right time for anyone out there thinking oh I'm gonna like take that risk and get a bigger mortgage or I'm gonna sort of do you know spend a fortune on the house I'm like oh do you really want to right now because it could all change tomorrow you know anyway yeah I completely agree with that and I think I think that also as well where does that end ultimately do you know I mean you'll get the next thing and then will you want more space or will you want a better car and a better you know and it just carries on from there and and if you sort of try to put your contentment in that I don't think you'll ultimately ever be happy no exactly chasing a rainbow that you'll never get you'll never catch yeah so have you had the midlife crisis yet no i don't know uh uh have i does it even exist or is it is it just a kind of a horrible thing that they you know land on us mid midlife kids who um might just might be going through you know some shifts i mean in my case a back injury and uh in your case a change of change of career a change of life I guess yeah no I didn't um I've never thought of really thought of it as a midlife crisis as such um have you bought a mini mini beanie yet one of those ones that doesn't even sort of cover your ears no definitely not no definitely not I think I think I think I think what I would because it was a it was a probably a better it was a continual crisis rather than a midlife one if I make sense you know so I think because I've always been in that I didn't notice that it was a particularly age-related thing.

26:19Yeah, I know.

26:20Katy Cowan:It's so bad. We get so much, like I was chatting with somebody, I think it was the previous season. Who was it? Who was it? Was it Joy? Can't remember now. And we were talking about how we get called boomers now and again. I'm not even a boomer and there's this ageism problem. It's like, hang on a minute. In my head, I'm 22, you know. Yeah. I mean, I work a lot with students now and it's kind of, yeah, you realise that like, yeah, I'm literally double their age. Do you know what I mean? And more. Yeah. I know. It's mad. Do you remember being 22 and seeing people our age and just thinking they were ancient?

26:57I remember it really well, yeah. I remember it really fond memories of that time. And yeah, I kind of, this age just would seem crazy.

27:05Katy Cowan:I know. Well, if I'm having a midlife crisis, Rob, it's with my new wardrobe and I'm hoping that the fancy new threads are sort of helping me. Well, I don't think I was ever cool, but maybe be cool for a little while. And then when I'm a really old woman, I'll go all punk and just be really kind of, you know, unexpected. I hope so anyway. I hope I last that long. Have you got a particular window penciled in for that or is that like? 2000 and 2042 maybe 2042 22 I'm not very good with that I'm just plucking a year I mean that's a long time you're leaving it late you're leaving it very late yeah but you know there's a really lovely story I was with my mum the other day she popped around with my dad for a cup of tea which was lovely and um she wanted to see my new jacket so she came upstairs and she was like saying oh I really like that that's that's really me I mean and and she said what did she say it was something like oh I wouldn't wear that that's what old women wear and I stopped and I looked at her and I went mother you're 73 and she went well I mean you know I am I suppose age-wise but not in my head I'm like I know what you mean but she just burst out laughing so I get it from her she's she's fantastic yeah it's it's a funny old age but there there have been so many people who've reached out to me over the years who get to this sort of era and it's like I suppose people call it the messy middle don't they it's when you're you've done pretty well you've probably at this stage got a pretty big mortgage which most likely children and lots of responsibilities and and lots of responsibilities in your profession as well and it can don't they say like your 40s are the most miserable decade so you're all right you've you've you've survived i've survived yeah it was fine it was fine and i'm kind of you know i sort of found a peace with it really i think what happened And I sort of, because I was having a kind of very personal kind of stuff going on in my job and my life and everything in my house, I think I sort of forgot all about that stuff about kind of what globally we're meant to be doing in that age.

29:30And I just sort of got on with it. And I think actually what's happened is the opportunities it's afforded me through that period, you know, I'm very grateful for and I'm really, really pleased that they happened. And so I'm kind of, I've made my peace for that almost, you know, I enjoy the work I do. I enjoy the path that I'm on and I enjoy where that, the experimentation and I love being able to try these different things that I do. So I'm kind of okay with that now, you know, maybe that would be different here. If I, I can imagine if I had some of those things you mentioned just then, you know, you know, gigantic house and kind of, you know, all that sort of stuff going on.

30:14but that sort of went a different direction for me. So am I right with that?

30:19Katy Cowan:Yeah, it's probably true success, right? I've no idea. I have no idea because that feels... You haven't got all the answers. None of us have. I absolutely haven't got all the answers, but I think there's a contentment to that. There's a contentment that actually, you know, the thing that I'm trying to build, I'm enjoying trying to build that, you know? And that doesn't feel like necessarily success because that doesn't feel like I'm at that destination. But what it does mean is that I'm enjoying the path I'm on. That's brilliant. And it's gone very well for you. And putting the graft in and figuring out, you know, trying anything has led you to finding where you are in this space and gaining brilliant clients and doing great work.

31:05Katy Cowan:It's worked out really well for you. But do you, us creatives are always sort of, there's always something niggling us. there's always something at the back of our minds where we're thinking right I should try that next or I should figure out how to approach that um is is there anything currently that's on your mind that you're sort of chewing over there's always a thousand things yeah there's always there's always a thousand things I'd like to do and I'd like to try and I'd like to experiment with um and and that just changes though that what will happen is I'm a big I'm a big fan of creatives almost trying different things and thinking about it like a toolbox and just putting tools in there constantly and no matter what those tools are and no matter not knowing whether you'll need them or not at this point but having them in there so at some point you know at some point when you need to put some creative shelves up you'll have a spirit level do you see what i mean it's that kind of thing so i love kind of just trying to expand things and just trying to try different things and and um and so and just seeing you know it was uh when i when i got taught to do the sign painting thing i got shown to how to use gold leaf and it was like a couple of years it was a couple of years till i bought gold leaf into my work after and i sort of ultimately sort of didn't use it for anything for a couple of years but it was kind of in the back of my mind okay that could be used and i know how i understand that now and i know how that works and then i I was like, OK, I'll integrate that to my work.

32:30And it's been a bit like that where I just I pick up things along the way. I try different things along the way and I just stick them in that toolbox. And then at a point, I just sort of bring them back out and just see where it takes me.

32:46Katy Cowan:Adobe Firefly is sponsoring today's episode. And I want to share something that really stuck with me from the research they've just released. They surveyed creators about agentic AI, the kind that can actually execute multi-step tasks on your behalf. And 85 % said the final creative decision should always stay with them, not with the AI, with them. And when asked what they do with the time agentic AI frees up, the most common answer wasn't relax. It was to go deeper into the creative work that actually matters. That's exactly the philosophy behind Adobe Firefly. It's been completely redesigned with agentic features now in beta across creative cloud.

33:25Katy Cowan:photoshop premiere illustrator and more it's built to take the repetitive stuff off your plate so you can focus on the thinking the taste the ideas that only you can bring head to the link in the show notes to find out more and you've got a new chapter now where you're working um in a university is it which university are you at so university of worcester so last year i've done some uh i did some projects with the students previously we did some live brief stuff they invited me in and then last summer I got uh got told I was been uh was going to be awarded a fellowship with the university so now a fellow of Worcester uh University of Worcester and as a result of that they asked me to go and um I guess lecture on the master's course there uh on creative identity So I've got like young students who are fine artists, illustrators, graphic designers, people who want to get into fashion, 3D artists, screenwriters in there.

34:30And this whole idea of just trying to sort of find their creative identity and find their path forward and ultimately find commercial opportunity and contentment for them as creatives.