Why Being Yourself Is Your Biggest Creative Advantage, with Katy Ennis-Hargreaves of BOLDISM

0:06Katy Cowan:Hello and welcome back to the show. Now, this week's guest is someone really special to me because she's actually one of the reasons I found the courage recently to go and stand on a stage and do my own talk. It was an event she co-founded with her friends Aidan and Darren and the brilliant Wilson's Republic up in Huddersfield. I'd been following her online for a while anyway before we met. I mean, her Instagram is just fantastic. Her presence, the way she carries herself and how she shows up, it's all bold and completely unapologetic, full of humor and fun as you would expect from someone from that part of the world.

0:47Katy Cowan:She's the kind of person who makes you want to stop watering yourself down and just be yourself. Yeah, without worrying about what anybody thinks. But interestingly, after I met her, I realised actually she's just like all the rest of us. We have our off days, we sometimes get imposter syndrome and we talk about that during this episode, why it can actually be, surprisingly, the fuel in your rocket rather than the thing that holds you back. We also talk about growing up as the different kid, that was something we share in common. We talk about the slow journey toward going all in on who we really are and why she ditched the rigid agency blueprint for a far more human, if I can put it that way, collaborative way of working.

1:34Katy Cowan:We also talk about leopard print cars. Of course we do. It's Katie we're talking about here. Hollow social climbing, that greasy pole that, yeah, isn't very appealing. And the simple truth that no one can really ever copy you because there's only ever going to be one of you. So I was thrilled when she agreed to come on the show and even more thrilled when our chat turned into exactly the sort of conversation I love. Honest, funny, a little bit rebellious and full of heart. She's the founder of the graphic design studio Boldism and she's an absolute force to be reckoned with. Please welcome the wonderful Katie Ennis Hargreaves.

2:14Katy Cowan:But first, a word from our sponsor.

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2:59Katy Cowan:Find out more via the link in the show notes.

3:05Katy Cowan:I came and did a talk at your wonderful Wilson's Republic recently. You did? And you know what surprised me the most? And it's stuck with me ever since. It was the question you asked at the end to me when I was on stage. You said, how do you deal with imposter? Do you ever get imposter syndrome? Now, this surprises me with you, Katie, because that would not have been the question I thought someone like you would have asked. How so? because you come across so confident and bold if I dare bring in a bit of branding there um and you're just a fantastic force for good on social media and a huge inspiration to me and actually one of the reasons why I got up on that stage that's nice to hear um imposter is like my whole second personality it's like the devil on my shoulder that drives me to do the opposite I'm a very stubborn person so usually when somebody tells me I can't do something I will purposefully do it to prove them wrong just to piss them off or yeah just to prove myself if somebody like if I think I can't do something then I try as as much as I can to do it so yeah imposter is my whole second it's my driver I think that's the same with all of us though you know we it's the it's the kind of fuel in our rockets isn't it we think hang on a minute no I'm gonna I refuse to be afraid of doing that or saying that or being that that's exactly it and I think like spent years especially when I was younger as well I was always the weird kid who was a little bit I mean there's a picture of me pushing my dog around in a pram I didn't do dolls dolls didn't interest me and I pushed my dog around in a pram and I've got a full sequin headband on and a full sequin t-shirt on and I'm in my little lycra shorts and you know that girl did boulders and before I even invented it and then somewhere along the way you kind of get laughed at or ridiculed or somebody says makes a comment about it and you suddenly temper it a little bit and then I think just after years of that I just got to the point where I just thought fuck it yeah it's a small did you grow up in a small town would you say yeah yeah I'd say Huddersfield is a I mean it's the biggest town in England as Wilsons will often um often let you know but yeah I grew up in a fairly small town so I don't know whether that had an effect or not village life yeah I grew up in a small town and I was like you a character pretty feisty knew my own self you know wasn't a dull person either and inevitably sadly um I got teased I got bullied because I didn't basically conform exactly that and actually I've moved recently back to a small town and I obviously don't get bullied now but I do get the occasional sort of little chuckle because of my balloon pants my parachute pants or the fact that I'm wearing a sort of quirky outfit I quite like it it's like I feel like a little rebel again well that's the thing to lean more into isn't it it's it's the same thing it's like the same thing with my car like my car's probably the most campus car in the village and then I'll come out of the gym and there's school kids like self-fueling with it and stuff.

6:36The disadvantage is you can't drive around like an idiot because everybody recognises it. So you've got to be a good, you know, you've got to be a safe driver all times. But it got to the point where, you know, when I wanted, I've always said I wanted a crazy coloured car and I was meant to have my other car wrapped this crazy purple colour and then I wrote it off. And then my next car was meant to be a redescent and then the engine went in that one. So when I got this one, I just thought I've wanted a light leopard print and And I've got a massive leopard print tattoo. And I thought, sod it, I'm going to get my car to match me.

7:06And then a few people were like, why would you do that? It's a bit, oh, isn't that a bit, oh, and isn't it going to be a bit that? And what will people think? And I thought, I don't care anymore. It makes me smile every day. And now it's instantly recognisable. So it's part of work.

7:21Katy Cowan:Well, this is the thing I'm really interested in, because I feel like we share a lot in common in this regard. What was the moment that you decided, fuck it, I'm just gonna do whatever I want go all in I think I've always been told I'm awkward and rebellious especially by my parents so they always say just oh you had to be different you had to be awkward um so I've grown up hearing that which has always wound me up I'm pretty sure my mum won't listen to this so it'll be fine um so I've kind of always grown up with a little bit of um a bit a little bit of that disapproval I'm an I'm also an only child so um I think as well if you don't necessarily have siblings to be compared against you don't really have any marker of how outrageous something is to how calm you are there's no real measure of it um but I think I think in terms of work I definitely sort of tempered who I was maybe to a degree going up through agencies because you learn you have to fit in and also there's such a competitive edge to being an agency to be difficult or to stand out isn't always as positive as it's made out to be so I think definitely the part of it was the biggest lesson was going on my own and going independent and setting up separately and there was a huge part of imposter at the beginning of that because there was very much a tick box kind of format I thought I had to go to like go through a very analytical you know knowing your audience there's obviously all the brand work but then being able to articulate who I was was really difficult yeah and then I found that was because I just wasn't seeing what I was thinking I wasn't speaking my mind so I thought well let's just see what happens if I do and I can't stop it now it's like I've turned on a tap and I can't shut up but don't you find everything just naturally falls into place yeah weirdly and the more you notice it the more comfortable i guess you become with it and that feels more and more i guess that that in turn is it's it's cylindrical isn't it that's what helps build confidence you push yourself you realize you haven't died doing it so you think oh i'll give it and i'll try what happens if i do this or what if i try that and then you realize more people will have an opinion and And, you know, people will hate you inevitably or have a target on you.

9:49But that's their problem.

9:51Katy Cowan:Yeah. You will, if you're yourself and you don't conform, you are inevitably going to have people raise their eyebrows. But I think it took me a lot longer than you to go through that kind of nice pivot, I suppose. Because I had a back injury. Everybody knows I've had a back injury at this point. I've told the world. To 2024. and I just came to the end of that experience and I just thought, you know what? That was brutal. And if there's more of that to come in future, flipping heck, I've got to crack on. And it just naturally happened. I just stopped. It's not that I stopped caring about what people think.

10:34Katy Cowan:It was just that it's really hard to articulate, isn't it? It's almost like an organic transition. yeah I found the courage to be myself and I'm still figuring out what that is and I'm flipping enjoying the process I bloody love it watching it I know well I'm enjoying watching you because you were part such a massive part of that pivot for me because the first time I came across you you were sort of um walking in the peaks I think or sitting in you know wearing the most fantastic boots with the most gorgeous outfit and your thighs. I thought, oh gosh, she definitely goes to the gym. And sitting on a pink chair in the middle of nowhere.

11:18Katy Cowan:Oh yeah, that one. I'm like, who is this girl and how do I become a mate?

11:25Katy Cowan:I mean, how do you follow that really? How do you follow all that kind of, just basically throwing a load of compliments at you? It's never easy for any of us, is it? when somebody's saying all these things? No, it's a weird one. And you think, you know, oh God, what will people think of you? And oh, you know, you get odd side glances when you're laid on the floor and in a pair of boot and boots tottering on the moors while your good photographer friend's laid in the middle of the road trying to get the right angle. But it's just experimentation. It's fun. And that's kind of what we're all here to do, isn't it?

12:00Have fun. And if you can run your own business and have fun doing it with your clients and your own branding, then why not? Why be so serious? There's enough serious stuff going on in the world. Yeah, absolutely.

12:13Katy Cowan:My parents, I've got a little brother who's seven years younger than me. So I was kind of an only child for a good seven years. And they always said to me when, because I'd get picked on at school for not fitting in, my dad would always say something sweet like, the problem with you Katie is that you've got personality that's the best problem to have in my opinion yeah yeah like and that's the thing I think part of that pivot was flipping the switch rather than thinking of myself as a problem to quash and water down I now in a in a non as most like I don't want this to come across arrogant at all and it probably will and actually I don't care but I now look around at other people and I think you're fucking boring I'm just having the best time that's the thing it's about having fun isn't it and it's the same with you know and I think there's a massive thing where especially when we were younger you know you're told to conform and you know behave and then you fit yourself into your environment and your jobs and your roles and things like that and you know yes that's a part of like growing up that's part of upbringing and things like that but then being able to actually know who you are and you know it takes a lot of different things for you obviously it took a massive life-changing situation for you to pause and to be able to have that moment and take stock and it can happen in lots of little moments I think yeah one big rebellious moment but we only get one go on this rock don't we so we're meant to have fun doing it yeah totally and I'm looking at the amazing fireplace in the background that's painted pink and you've got like black and white tiles I think as well it's just fabulous she's actually going to show me oh that is just amazing so that probably came from a process where you said well who says I can't have a pink fireplace where does that come from who's saying that what voice in my head is telling me that it's exactly that rebellion and I think it's that thing where loads of like even people I work with and lots of brands I work with yeah but it's not you know people don't do that in our industry or and it's like well who who says who makes the rules who made all of the rules and yes some of them are absolutely ones to be adhered to but bending them's a lot of fun and also bending them's living so fucking bend the rules a bit have some fun with it like brand guidelines are my worst task to ever do because to tie something down and lock it down when you want natural flex is really difficult so my brand guidelines are written with a side note of please feel the need to bend like please bend them but just like check in with me otherwise I'll tell you off I love that it's for fun isn't it how do you feel about the design industry in general do you feel like there is a blueprint that people follow so that they can rise to the top I think there definitely was one I think especially the period I came up in it was very much higher education into agency you weren't your stripes working your way up the ranks I kind of came a backward way really I started life as a 3D I did interior architecture for my first degree and then loved 3D which is probably why I ended up more in packaging than tangible stuff and then realized the recession happened and I was told it would be really handy to probably retrain in something like being an electrician or a plasterer which after coming out of university is the last thing you want to hear so I was like no I will not do that like I will just learn more creative skills then so I did another degree um and then I've been able to fuse those together so the interior stuff I'm probably doing a bit more interior stuff more than ever now but then went off to do graphic um which then led to branding and then I got really in specializing in packaging design and then you get told you need to have a really tight niche or you did you tended to specialize in one thing obviously everything's a lot more vague now um but I didn't want to I didn't want to be pigeonholed into what again it comes down to the thing of not being tied down to something very very floozy very much like it's how I describe myself in like my decks and stuff but definitely a design tart I like to flit there's not one trend I necessarily follow there isn't one discipline because to do to be well-rounded you've got to have a bit of a dabble at all of it haven't you and try and practice and be good at it don't get me wrong don't fake it till you make it or anything but I do think there was definitely a very cookie cutter approach you came up through the ranks you got up to whatever level often as a female there was a glass ceiling in industry in some place you would hit a point and there was a typical agency model And I think that's eventually sort of what fatigued me a little bit.

17:11And then I thought, right, I'm off on my own.

17:14Katy Cowan:I think when you're sort of figuring out the angle you're going to take, if you kind of get rid of all of the expectations and what's come before and just think, well, hang on a minute, who am I and what do I want to do? Then it just all naturally falls into place. Because I suppose you will, the way you're presenting yourself, that will naturally lead to the right type of clients. yeah and it's a really random mixture that comes through it's it's odd things I think some people like the tone of voice some people like the honesty some people like the energy so it ends up being a really varied client base so got energy companies that are really quite serious but want to be able to express how to articulate their you know their product or what their passion is I get a lot of that a lot of people are wanting a lot of people who want to be able to articulate their inner voice and not quite sure how to do it.

18:08Katy Cowan:Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me because they'll see you very bold and very confident in that arena and they'll think, well, I need a bit of that in my life. It makes total sense. Yeah, it's a little bit like therapy sometimes. And also there's kind of an exercise I take some of my clients through where there's a lot of people who are, and this is the thing about the creative industry that always amazes me and the same thing with Wilson's Republic and every time we hold an event the speakers come along and I am in awe of the speakers that come along you know these are people that I've stalked and these are like proper creative people is that why you were outside my house that's exactly why I was in the bush ruffling around in the bush but when we you know when you agree to come and do our talk I was like oh my god this is like huge but the thing that always amazes me about everybody who comes to speak is how humble and down to earth and how human everybody is and at the end of it we're all just trying to do our best and yes some people have more ego than other and it presents in different ways is ego a bad thing no not necessarily I think depending which way you apply it it's either a positive thing if you really up your own ass then yeah not positive have you ever had any speaker um other than myself ask you to do a beastie boys re-enaction no and that was a winner and i hope that is now your mo across every appearance you make oh i want you to go through that discography it was so funny darren at the gate you're going ah it just gets me every time so good and what a friendly bunch in huddersfield it was it was so humbling so thank you for inviting me along um I didn't want the evening to end I loved it it was really good fun and I think that's the other thing with the with the Wilson's crowd is I think like you say going through industry was there a particular way in a format and I always felt really intimidated by a lot of people I worked with I've worked at some brilliant agencies I've worked with amazing creatives and there's always a part of me that was massively imposter-led and really intimidated thinking I'm winging it I don't quite know how I've managed to be here how I've like got this job and even going to events I'm quite anxious when I go to events in real life events I'm not a networker some designers I know go to loads of networking events I don't really show up at networking events I'm not very good at it and the Wilson's thing's really different because it is everybody is so down to earth and it's very relaxed and very chilled and like your creative boom in real life events now imagine they've got like I haven't been to the Leeds one yet because it was while I was away but they've got the same sort of vibe and energy where people are just nice to each other not competing against each other and I think there needs to be more of that yeah I think that's why I set up Creative Boom because I looked around the industry at the time and it was very kind of it felt it's too um it's too blunt for me to say it felt elitist because there's a lot of nuance that wasn't the case at all but maybe in the media that was around at the time it felt a little bit if you're not a really well-known name then we're not gonna feature you so there was there was a gap I felt for doing something that celebrated people who are just emerging and do you know what one of the nicest things about running this is that someone will drop me an email and say oh you featured my portfolio 10 years ago I'm now working at Wolf Owens you know like fuck okay this is pretty cool um so it's a small pond and it it has changed so much in the 17 years that I've been geez 17 years I've been doing this 17 years in July so you interviewed me before podcasts were even a thing on creative boom when it was blog posts and I'm trying to that must be about 13 12 years ago.

22:07Katy Cowan:See, you tell me this, I will not have remembered. It's been a whirlwind. It was called something like shut up, hang up and something else. Really? I'm intrigued. Yeah, I'm trying to remember what it was about now. It was, yeah, it was a bit rebellious again, I think. I think there are 10 ,000 articles on Creative Boom. I'm not surprised. And I know AI keeps coming up in all of these episodes, but at least 2000 of the last ones. Well, do you know, I used Claude the other day to sift through it all. And I said, right, go through all these 10 ,000 articles and tell me if they're in the right topics, the right categories.

22:51Katy Cowan:Give me some suggestions for improving things. It took us a couple of days working together, but we got there and I'm really happy with the results. So a job that would have been impossible before and probably would have taken me two years, done in a weekend. Did Claude do the spreadsheeting as well? It did and it could have, but I just basically went through section by section and just said, can you just tell me what you found? A little bit risky, probably should have backed things up a little bit beforehand. but I think we're okay although yeah a couple of my writers have said have you seen where this article's gone so I'm like oh bugger and I haven't quite I haven't quite mentioned it to them yet what I've been up to so uh there you go 17 years what a body of work yeah it's fun it's fun like the thing I love the most about it is that I get to meet people like you and come to brilliant events and talk to creatives and shape what we do next with the platform.

23:50Katy Cowan:Do you feel like you do the same with your business? Do you sort of keep an eye on the feeling out there and maybe present your marketing in a different way that can appeal to those businesses that might be struggling with the economy right now? I think so. I think for initially, I looked what everybody else was doing and then purposely tried to do the opposite. So the zig, I zag, I zag, format just because I didn't want to sound like everybody else but I do think the market is changing at such a rapid rate at the moment and I think being a part of Wilson's obviously keeps my ear very close to the ground on what's happening in different conversations you're hearing it you're hearing it literally from the ground up what's going on about you know people obviously like there's redundancies and job changes and job description changes all of these things um so i do think you have to flex more than ever now you've got to be able to like tweak things and pivot things a bit more i hate the word pivot why did i use the word pivot i've been using pivot all throughout this conversation that's why that's where i've got it from thanks with pivoted pivoting earworming me it's banned i'm sure bill nighy would ban that word as well sorry bill we're going to start using the word authentic next jesus christ oh i know i keep using it it's just i might start doing a list of banned words you know we can't use these bullshit bingo bullshit bingo love it we'll do that actually that's great we could do that on the community every friday design industry is full of bullshit bingo words yeah like what what do you kind of uh oh you've got it goes as far as your original blue sky thinking to you know I'm elevating.

25:36Let's elevate your brand. I mean, God, if I had a penny for every time I heard that. Let's circle back on this. Circle back on that. Loop me in.

25:43Katy Cowan:Can I just run this by you or run this past you? Yeah, I want to elevate it, but I want it to be premium, but I want it to be mass market for everyone. Brilliant. Gosh. You know, when I'm writing briefs to people, I'm like, oh God, do I sound like an absolute, you know, idiot? it and what I guess I whenever I've given a brief in the past I just try and sort of be as open and as human as possible and just really you know say this is this is what I want and forgive me if I'm asking all the wrong questions or giving all the right information all the wrong information but yeah how do people find you um that's a very good question there is I think a fair chunk of it's word of mouth I think it does help that drive around in a leopard print shiny car sometimes so people can QR code that when it's parked in places I'll get a message being like I saw your car on the M1 well crap and I think social media has a lot to do with it initially I was very much in that camp of it should be business and it should be very professional and it should be a certain way I present and I've actually entirely changed the way I work probably in the last 12 once where I think like we talk about format there was very much that blueprint of how I thought projects go through the studio and how I work and I've actually kind of been to that at the moment so the process of where it was very much you know you have your discovery call and then you have your deck sent to you and this it's all it's all well and good and it works for some people but for me it doesn't I'm better chatting to people so I've gotten to the point now where I will work on for example a creative direction I'll work on it all artboards messy stuff everywhere put it into some sense of cohesion and then I will either get on the call and we'll go through it or I will video record it send it on so they can re-watch it and they can see behind the curtains so they're not just seeing some swanky deck very top level finished ideas they're actually seeing the thinking and the process behind it and it's almost like a live work on things sometimes yeah and it's a lot more collaborative then you know I run off and then here's the shiny thing and deliver it and then disappear off so it's a lot more involved now I spend a lot more time kind of working manually with my clients on stuff which is great it's what I'm here to do I don't want to spend four hours polishing a bloody deck because yeah some some of the things that you have to do just have always to me felt a bit you know clunky and what's the point you know just work together as a collaborating force and then you'll come out with you know if it's it's less sort of rigid and conforming to something you can have more fun with it yeah so much of it is so much perfunctory and you know what's the point of me charging a client for spending three hours perfecting a deck to them when I could be spending that three hours actually working on the thing that's going to make them the money further down the line.

28:40So I'm quite honest about it now. If you want somebody to take you to a very rigid, tidy, neat little process, I'm just probably not your person.

28:49Katy Cowan:No, well, they wouldn't come to you for that anyway, would they? Probably not.

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29:49Katy Cowan:What I really like is that it's not just about storing files. It's about helping you understand what matters fast. You can also share an entire PDF space with collaborators. So instead of sending endless folders and version 12 final, final PDFs, everyone works from the same guided experience. And because it's Adobe, it's designed around actual creative workflows, research, strategy, campaigns, pitches, production, collaboration, all the messy real world stuff. You can explore PDF spaces now via the link in the show notes. You mentioned before the difficulty in pulling apart the professional side and the personal side.

30:34Katy Cowan:Those lines definitely blur when I'm doing things to camera. You say there was a moment where you're trying to be professional. It's weird, isn't it? I've been thinking about this a lot lately. What does that mean? Does it mean swearing less? Having a certain persona? I don't know what it means. that's the thing I think when you're taken through university at first and it was very much corporate and professional and you know there's these two separate worlds and I think it doesn't really apply so much to the creative world and especially now and because of social media and you know people are really effing nose there they want to know the person behind who's doing it why you got to that point what did you eat for your tea what what are you wearing what are you drinking come on yeah what are you drinking what's that and you know it's I think it adds it adds a richness and it adds layers you know it's brand storytelling isn't it if you want to get really corporate and wanky about it yeah bullshit bingo but you know in real time and I think I really I did struggle I very much thought there was two ways I needed to present myself and then one they're both the same thing that's the problem now I can't separate myself from whatever it is So there's no point in trying to fight it anymore.

31:53And if somebody thinks I am unprofessional for dropping F-bombs and showing the weird outfit I wore on Saturday night, then, you know, they're just not my client.

32:03Katy Cowan:They're not your bait. They're not your crew. That's what it is. Yeah, I get it. I get it. I am, you know, obviously we're going to be professional. We're not going to be inappropriate. We're not going to do things that are, you know, considered a bit out there. um but sometimes I just can't help myself Katie and that's the fun part do it do it more oh what do you think of this I was at shoot I can't believe I'm putting this on the podcast I was at my I was having my picture taken and it's awkward enough as it is because you you've got all this crew of amazing creatives around you who are being very professional and amazing and trying to put you at ease and um the one of the guys said how tall are you Katie said six foot I said oh I'm 5 '10 I always wish I had a couple more inches and I looked at him I went steady don't they all and I said to him who did I was who was I saying to afterwards I was like chatting with one of the uh stylists I said do you think that that was inappropriate she was laughing she said no she said honestly some of the things and then she said because she's amazing she's worked all around the world and she said oh the stories I could tell which I won't but all the famous models all the kind of famous photographers I was like oh how much do I need to give you alcohol wise to get the dirt but no no it'll be worth it whatever it is but that's professionalism isn't it it's about you know um you you you don't gossip and you yeah you don't sort of you know you let you let the industry find out for itself what people are yeah exactly and there is a lot of that I think a lot of people there is a lot of people out there who are a little bit sneaky there's a little bit you know you can see there's some shadowing I had somebody rip all of the copy off my website once which I thought well good luck with that because you know that that doesn't sound like you at all so I had to rewrite mine shit isn't it when that happens when somebody copies what you do it really is it's just like what are you thinking like I've worked so hard on my copy there's no need there's no need you know just you can't but this is one of the things this is one of the things I absolutely love about this um whole process that I've gone through it's realizing that um they can try to copy and take what you've done and do the same thing and they and they can get so far and I wish them all the luck but the problem is nobody can be me yeah 100 like I creative boom has an edge because of me and it's taken me a long time to realize that um so yeah it's a it's a nice thing to realize they can try and copy and it's very flattering but um I'm afraid there's only one Katie Cowan exactly snaps to that but this is the thing I think why would you want to be a poor imitation of somebody else you know it's and it's it's tricky you know it's one of those things we find confidence where we can and for some people that's imitating something else and you know that's fine but there's sometimes there's a process that I take my clients through who I've got these amazing brands and businesses but are a little bit too shy to be in them so we kind of make persona like we make their persona which is almost like a stage persona which is kind of in a way I think probably how I got to this point a little bit so if boldism's like its own stage persona then that's the part I play and And then there is a private life as well.

35:50But it helps them to step into a slightly different stage character, which then, you know, you play that part and then you can withdraw apart from it and don't worry too much about what people think. But you should, yeah, to imitate somebody else is just, makes me a bit sad, really.

36:08Katy Cowan:Yeah, have you heard of this thing? It's called Cargo Cult. Oh, no, do tell. It was something that came out of the indigenous Melanesian populations in the South Pacific during the early 20th century, especially around the World War II. It was basically watching foreign soldiers, as in probably United States soldiers, receiving vast supplies, you know, that were flown in and on a sort of temporary runway. And then they sort of basically mimicked it with sort of ritualistic, such as, I don't know, constructing fake airstrips and radios and believing that that would be what would cause their ancestors to send similar wealth.

36:57Katy Cowan:Right. Yeah. It's a different kind of manifesting. it is and it's a crude way to describe it i guess but it's it's about somebody seeing what you're doing and it's doing really well and wanting to sort of emulate that but they can't because it is not them so yeah for anyone listening to this who haven't yet gone through that lovely pivot what advice would you give to them because i i was there i i was sort of looking around at other people and thinking gosh they're doing really well I want I need to be more like them and it wasn't until I realized that what I had was unique and different and I had to lean into that and then I would not be constantly chasing what they're doing or constantly chasing what these people over here are doing if I just stuck in my lane and figured out what I'm about and what my strengths are then everything would fall into place.

37:51It does it's absolutely right I mean I hate the phrase fake it till you make it it's a double-edged sword for me because I think there's a degree of always try like try fail fail again fail again keep going but I think there's I think the fake it till you make it culture has in turn emulated a lot of people who are willing to fake it but without putting the effort in so it's very much top level and I don't agree with that I do think to find like you say to find who you are to find that success you actually need to try like you actually have to put the effort in and that can't be cheated you know everybody's looking for the shortcut of doing everything these days it's it's the natural progression of the world along with AI and everything else to want to get to the result at the quickest point but it's actually the bit along the middle is where you actually learn the lesson.

38:46Katy Cowan:I had to kick somebody out of the studio or private community because it transpired they were completely copying a creative boom like no yeah taking the entire design and making something of their own um and i just sort of said what what what you're doing mate you can't do that well again what's the point because you're never going to be able to emulate that it's going to look like a poor you know it's going to be like the poor the push supermarket equivalent why would you want to be behind that and it's not even your own the other thing that really bugs me is when people don't have meaning behind what they're doing so there's a lot of people in this industry um who i see and you know they're hustling that sorry i used another word that is another bullshit bingo term bullshit bingo um they're working hard they're trying to make a success of themselves but they instead of having substance and meaning they um do a lot of the kind of well if i hang around with these more famous people get a photograph taken with them rub shoulders do all of these talks eventually maybe write a book eventually you know i'll be able to get up here whatever that is and i hear a lot of that in private conversations people are like i'm trying to make it like social climbing like the greasy pole as a good friend of mine called it i'm like but why why do you want to be at this mythical top of the ladder it's it's bollocks um and yes it exists there are definitely people at this definitely and they will and some of them are brilliant and lift people up and help them sort of get to a uh more divine place i don't know whatever bullshit um and then there's a lot of people who say no no no I've got to protect my place and that happens across lots of industries I didn't realize how brutal it is in the fashion industry that if you're a makeup artist and you have lots of amazing gigs if you stop even for a minute there'll be 50 makeup artists waiting to sweep in and take that client yeah so it's that kind of I understand it but that particular person who climbs but with no substance and will just take what they can from each person and then move on it's like being chewed up and spat out you know like little sharks it's easier to spot them as you get older and you have to treat them with dignity and respect and understand that that's just the way of the the world and the industry and sometimes that just happens but for the most part um you just have to assume the best of everyone I think that's what keeps me sane definitely substance is what I look for in people what are you doing that has meaning and you Katie have meaning why thank you well we try don't we we're trying to do some good in the world you in your leopard print car and spreading joy across the land and doing some brilliant work and brilliant things I mean Wilson's Republic is is a 10-year institution and you must be so proud of it I was really proud when the guys asked me if I wanted to be a part of it yeah I was um I was really really I was honoured because they you know again it's a grassroots organisation and they put so it's a lot of time and it's a lot of effort but again it's for it's about people and it's about the connections and it's about the good and it's trying to remove like you say that greasy pull it's a little bit you know we we learn and we're in awe of all these people that we speak to and that we get to come along but at the at the root of it all is actually the people that make the community and that's where those are the people who I have even more respect for you know people always say you know like who's your dream designer and things like that and yeah there's a couple of top level ones I have and there's a load that I respect and think are amazing but there's people who are probably I'm closer to a you know a lower level who are far more inspiring to me there's no such thing as levels there's just fame well yeah fame and muggle they're the two so there's a lot of muggles i i think there's no such thing as level it's just that some people got lucky uh or are especially talented some people are just beyonce well i mean how can you what can you say after that you know um and that's the thing everybody it does just because like Beyonce let's say in the music industry somebody with a guitar in a pub in Maxfield they could be just as talented but they just didn't get the break exactly that exactly that and I think especially in the creative industry I don't know because I've always been in the creative industry and I don't know any other any other any other life um and I think because of especially coming up through agency as well you're very much pigeonholed into levels and disciplines and stuff and again that was a thing i wanted to to rebel against but there's so much creative talent in the world it's wild but yeah the sharks and the little fakers they always get found out eventually because they can't carry it on can't carry it through they do because they run out of you know the the kind of ground that they've built is shaky and people just work it out for themselves it was funny actually I was having a chat with someone the other day and they asked for my opinion on someone in the industry and I was like oh fucking hell I hate I hate that I hate I do not I do not gossip I do not gossip I keep I can tell you who I don't like after having interviewed them but I won't yeah because the thing is well it's not just that it's just that you might catch people on a bad day they might have just lost a close family member they might have just found out they've got an illness you know I might have been in a bad mood you know I'm doing an 18-6 fasting thing at the moment and I'm just grumpy for half the day because I've not I breakfast.

45:07Katy Cowan:I'm hungry. Yeah. I'm hungry. So I don't, I don't get involved in gossip, but this person, oh, they were just, can you just tell me if I can trust them? I was like, and then eventually they showed their cards and told me what they thought of them. And I was kind of like, yeah, similar impression, but not that, you know, that's necessarily the the right you know you've got to keep an open mind because we're all just human exactly we've got a responsibility to be kind to each other and not try and shaft each other well exactly be aware of the way people are but have compassion and kindness for why they do that and not um because otherwise the alternative is you become bitter and think oh flipping heck i hate this industry and actually you've just got to say this industry is hard you know I don't blame people for behaving in a certain way but if it's anything you know criminal then well that's a completely different story now going back to talking to camera because this is the question I really wanted to ask you when you first started doing that did you find it really awkward was it that kind of trying to be professional didn't quite know how to be yourself did you have to go on a bit of a journey to be comfortable being yourself yeah I'm still not comfortable necessarily being myself now well who is that's the thing it's never it's not I think I think the impression because of the the brightness and obviously it's all boldism is that I have this automatic confidence I don't know this attunement to confidence and it's you know every like you say everybody's human and there's a large portion of imposter and rebellion that is probably what shows up quite often but in terms of the talking to camera I'm not even sure when I started really doing it I think because I'm naturally quite yappy and I like chatting to people for me being professional and posting some polished thing on the grid and being an educator and you know just didn't appeal to me in that sense what's real is me in my kitchen yapping about something talking about work with the dog in the background and it's the only way I know how it's the only I can't pretend to be anybody else I can't pretend to do it in any other way so you can tell when people are forcing something that doesn't suit them I think so I think I'll go to a level of I'll try it out do I feel confident doing it and if I do and it's fine then okay okay great I'll carry on but there are certain things I mean I've never been one of those people who does dancing videos apart from our Beastie Boys one but you know points to camera and educates or tries to be an authority on something other than my own brand and business yeah it goes back to it doesn't it goes back to leaning into what feels natural what comes natural yeah and it comes and goes what's you know what's fun and what isn't there's some weeks where it's all a lot of people say they like following my stories because they see the background of what's going on and things like that and you know different elements to it because I can't always show the work I'm working on a lot of it's NDA stuff for really big brands you know it will never see the light of day so I can only allude to what I'm doing it's a little bit mysterious and there's some days where I will chat and take through the process and share that world and then there are times when I feel quite in insular and quite quiet and I'll probably drop off a little bit while I'm getting stuff done or carry on but yeah I'm not sure when the talking to camera thing happens so much I never remember what I've said I'll have absolutely zero recollection of what I'll have said today mostly dribble yeah I mean I was overthinking it initially I started doing it when I was still in a lot of pain and I was just really kind of conscious of what people thought of me and oh gosh we've got to you know I'm representing creative boom and there was I was putting way too much pressure on myself and I think the point is once I stopped having such giving myself such a hard time I think everything just relaxed and I just relaxed and I just thought you know what flipping ex sod it I'm a great person I'm a good sister I'm a brilliant daughter sorry mum and dad if you're listening but I am they'll be laughing they'll be laughing you need to tell mine that yeah oh I'm sure they do I'm sure they think you're absolutely amazing I do I'm very difficult well they think you're difficult because they think they probably just want you to be happy and in their heads they think if you just toned it down then life would be easier for you I think parents have a funny way of going about things sometimes like my dad will look at me up and down and he'll say I look fantastic and then in the next breath he'll say Claire do you remember that MC Hammer you can't touch this and they'll start being like that I'm like oh sod off dad these are cool I look cool and then he'll grin and he'll say yeah you look amazing and he'll give me a big hug oh that's lovely yeah I mean we come from I don't know what your parents did for a living and whether they're retired now mine were teachers oh that's a good one I think what came up through some of my many years of therapy is my parents are from an immigrant background so I have a Polish and Irish family so my relatives moved here so my parents are like second generation so it was very much follow the rules keep within the lines don't rock the boat don't disturb anybody so I think it's my dad's definitely got a rebellious streak in him he worked part for he worked in the NHS um for a long time uh quite high up and then he eventually ended up doing um charity work in Africa he ended up rallying across Africa and then starting went build hospitals in Africa as part of a um a charity and stuff like that so he's got that rebellious streak in him but I think they're naturally quite quiet and then somewhere along the line I did have an amazing grandma my Polish grandma again she was one who had survived against all odds and fully embraced her character and personality and she was wild I think there was a there was a thing when I was a kid I had to do the thing called the granny report and everybody had to write about their grandmas I can't remember how old I was I was only young I must have been in maybe junior school you had to like illustrate the front of it and I think the very first paragraph is my grandma is not like most other grandmas because she used to go out clubbing.

52:02There was a nightclub in Huddersfield called Johnny's that went on for years. And in her seventies, like her sixties and her seventies, she used to finish work on a Friday. She'd go out with like the girls that she works with and she'd be down Johnny's dancing on a Friday night. And, you know, life was too short. She'd survived bombings and things like that. You know, she'd survived the war and she kind of had this life's too short thing and I think definitely I draw from that it's mad isn't it how we it's even our

52:31Katy Cowan:grandparents who um inspire us and shape us um my Nana was a bit of a a wild one well all my grandparents were interesting but my my grandma and my Nana were interesting characters Nana Nana was very independent and used to put on plays and do a lot for the community which I think is why I enjoy Creative Boom. And my grandma was just feisty as hell and would boss my granddad around, you know. So not much has changed. I was going to say you've taken all the best parts. I really have. It's great. Oh, I miss them so much. I wish I could see them now and tell them, you know, just for a little five-minute chat, ask them what they've been up to.