From Twitter to Ramps & Resilience: Haraldur Thorleifsson on Building with Kindness

0:06Katy Cowan:What if the kindest person in the room was also the most successful? Halli Thorleifsson built one of Iceland's leading digital agencies, then sold it to Twitter. He's worked with some of the world's biggest brands, advised governments and launched a non-profit that's now made over 2 ,000 public spaces more accessible. His story went viral when he was publicly let go from Twitter, but that's just one chapter. In this conversation, Hallie reflects on how personal loss, disability and burnout shaped a worldview rooted in empathy and service. We talk about the strength it takes to stay kind, the joy of lifelong friendships, the trap of overworking and how creative people can avoid chasing mountains they don't actually want to climb.

0:50Katy Cowan:This one's a tender one. it's honest and quietly powerful, the kind of conversation that stays with you.

1:01Katy Cowan:This season of the Creative Boom podcast is proudly sponsored by James Cropper, the last mill standing in Britain for premium coloured paper. Its new colour source range puts designers first, giving you direct access to 50 stunning shades in a range of weights and textures straight from the mill incredible color crafted in the lake district and delivered straight to your door discover the paper that brings your ideas to life via paper and packaging dot jamescropper.com so thank you for joining me today harley have i got that right harley that's pretty good yeah it's pretty pretty good it's not not amazing but Well, I've heard every possible version and that's pretty good.

1:49Katy Cowan:Pretty good. Okay, I'll take that. But we're going to be talking about kindness as a superpower today, which I feel has been something that's resonated throughout your career and life. Why would you say kindness is a thing that guides you? I would ask you back. Why do you think kindness is a good thing for our little chat? Well, I just, I kind of have been reading a lot about you and I just feel like it's a thread that runs through everything that you've done. You know, the empathy and compassion and warmth and humor. There's a humanity to everything that you do. So I just kind of, I'm curious, where does that come from?

2:31Katy Cowan:Why do you lead with that warmth? I think it probably comes from a few different things. I've had things go sort of wrong in my life. And I think that those kinds of things, pain in general, and I lost my mom. I have a pretty aggressive disease and other things that have happened. And I think with that, you get a shared sense of humanity, which I don't think you get when everything goes really, really well for you for a long time. And I think it's possible to go through something like that with a better understanding of our shared humanity. Yeah, I think you probably, you know, go through a bit of a dark side, don't you, where you think this is unfair.

3:23Katy Cowan:but then you realize quite quickly if you go down that path it can get even more ugly very quickly so yeah it's making peace with things isn't it and yeah accepting accepting reality and then understanding that you're not alone that everyone has their own thing that everyone is going through something it might not be as dramatic as what I just talked about but it's still it's it's important to them and it's it matters to them and I think if we are able to help each other I think it's this life is easier to get through was there a turning point when you said right I've got a choice here I can either go down that path or I can go towards the light I mean it's definitely it's it's it's an internal conflict I do get mad uh at my situation sometimes um and it's not a binary path.

4:21It's a choice you have to make constantly. But it is something that I, you know, I went through a long period of time when I was drinking too much. I was using substances. I was very deeply depressed. And I think when I stopped drinking and doing that, I think that was one of the major turning points. But I think it's a choice you have to make every day. It's, you know, there's things pop up and you have to decide if you choose anger or peace.

5:01Katy Cowan:Yeah, it's true. I mean, pain is a terrible thing to live with. It can make you very bitter at times. I went through a nasty back injury last year and spent a lot of the time on the floor. I can not empathize 100 % with what you've been through, but I can understand the kind of freedom that is taken away from you. And looking out the window and being really frustrated with the situation and thinking, why? It's not fair. Did you get better? Were you okay? 19 months post injury and I'm still dealing with symptoms in my leg but yeah I'm getting there hopefully I like you describe I make my peace with it every morning you have a choice don't you you either you might have a moment where you think I can't be bothered today it'd be easier to drink yeah yeah there's definitely those moments but you kind of have to keep going yeah you do and work's a nice distraction.

6:05Work is a very good, when I stopped drinking, that was, I substituted my alcoholism with workahol.

6:15Katy Cowan:Because you've had some successful ventures, haven't you? I've had, yes, some things I've done have worked out really well, some things have not, but I think I'm my, you don't do baseball in the UK, but my batting average is pretty good. Yeah, we don't do baseball. I didn't realize you did baseball in Ireland. We don't, but I spend so much time in America and I don't really watch sports, but all my sports analogy is Americanisms. Right, okay. And before we were chatting, you were telling me that you're a big Oasis fan and you're going to Wembley. Yeah, I'm going to go see Oasis at Wembley. It's been almost 30 years since I saw them last live.

6:56I'm very happy to get to see them again. I'm going with an old friend, someone I've known since I was five or six years old. And so it's going to be, I think, a pretty, well, I hope so. I've followed the show so far and everything. It seems to be going well.

7:18Katy Cowan:Are you going to dig out your old bucket hat? Well, I don't think I have. Well, I'm not sure. I need to go through some old photos. I'm not sure if I had a bucket hat. I definitely had the haircut. I played guitar and I had a guitar that I spray painted with the Union Jack. Nice. To sort of copy Noel's guitar. Was that your hero, Noel? Yeah, the songwriter was more. I definitely didn't have the voice of Liam. So I thought, I have a better chance of copying. Our heroes, eh? Yeah, they used to live in a house. And when they were first starting out, they used to live in a house down the way of where I lived in Manchester.

8:05Katy Cowan:And it was where they took that famous photograph of one of the album covers. Is it Definitely Maybe? It's quite interesting. And I did a podcast with the chap who was, basically, he did all the kind of album covers. Really interesting. so if you want to listen to that I think that would be yeah up your street as they say so did you did you always like lead with this spirit you know in all the ventures that you do because you've done some really wonderful things as well you've got this amazing scheme in Iceland where you're trying to sort of make places more accessible uh always I know I don't think anyone is always one thing but I there's definitely I try my best is what I will say I try my best to understand that I have you know I grew up we didn't have much when I was a kid and I remember that feeling really well I remember going to sleep hungry and now that I've I've had some success and I have some money I feel like I it is my duty to give back to society that was able to help me get to where I am today do you think everybody every creative has a duty to give back I think every human has yeah I think we all have if we if we want to live in a society I think if you want to go off and on your own and live in the woods somewhere remote I think you can make a moral an argument for that but if you want to live in a society I think we all have a duty to try and improve it in some way yeah it's very true and do you feel that that gives you that keeps you going giving back it's that you get out of it what you put in yes there's definitely I mean you know when you're not feeling well I think and you if you're if you're always focused on yourself and how you're doing I think that can lead to some dark places but if you're able to sort of go outside yourself and look around and see where you can be of use that I think it's not only good for the people around you but I think it also helps yourself and I think purpose is the biggest thing we we all need as people and if you find a purpose that can guide you through a lot of different scenarios yeah it's true I run creative boom because I wanted to support other creatives and help them out and help them to you know grow and win clients or you know develop their careers whatever that might be it's a small purpose but it's something I love it keeps me keeps me happy and satisfied yeah I mean that's a wonderful purpose I think creative I think every every person is creative but I think with the people we call creative so I definitely need a lot of help.

11:00Katy Cowan:What's your mission? My mission I'm not sure I I've mentioned purpose I think the thing that I've been struggling with for the last year is I ran through you know through a string of sort of events some of them of my own doing some of them pure luck. I was able to achieve most of the things that I wanted to achieve. And I went through my bucket list and I'm not sure what's left. Wow, that's amazing. What kind of things did you do? Well, it started off with me, you know, I built a digital agency and my dream there was much smaller than what we ended up doing. Is this the one you sold to Twitter?

11:51Yes, I ended up selling that to Twitter. It grew really fast. We did some work that I'm really, really proud of. And we had some amazing both clients and employees. And I really, really felt proud of what I built there. And it went again. I kept setting new goals that I felt were, you know, I always wanted to have a mountain to climb. and I kept building these bigger mountains. And all of them kind of came true, which was fantastic. But also it's hard to keep your passion going in that situation. And so I sold it to Twitter. And then I was at Twitter for a while. And then I started doing some of these things that had been on the back Twitter for a while.

12:43I had wanted to give back to Iceland as a society, which is just the place that I was able to grow up, go to school, and become whatever it is that I am. and I started a few different projects to do that. Like you mentioned, there's a project called Wrap Up, which is a nonprofit that I started. We build ramps. We actually just completed the project this year. It was supposed to be, we started off with 100 in downtown Rekirik. We ended up doing almost 2 ,000 across the country. and and that again that project went way beyond what i expected we we set the very audacious goal of 1000 um which i thought we wouldn't reach but i thought it's good to have this very big goal um and we're starting to to build um export that project to other countries we're building in ukraine and in panama and a few other places hopefully manchester

13:56Katy Cowan:where they by the way they prioritize they prioritize um profit over accessibility because there's a lot of grade two listed buildings and they're like well yeah well the thing with ramps um and i can we can i could talk about that for for the whole podcast but the thing with ramps just that i want to say is that they're cheap they're easy to to build at scale and they don't break and and it's it's um it's a very quick and easy fix that can completely change the lives of of the people in the neighborhoods in the cities that you do it so it's um it's something i'm really passionate about because it's it's such a a small small thing you can do that can can completely change um everything for some people it can you don't realize how inaccessible a city is until you know somebody who is using a wheelchair and then it's frankly frustrating to see the struggle they go through just to get from a to b yes it's and it's all these small little things that are easy to fix most of them yes absolutely and going back to your agency um when you said it sort of got to a point where you weren't really enjoying it anymore is that something that you know is inevitable with any agency that a creative might build I see, I hear that a lot from founders.

15:23Katy Cowan:It gets to a point where you've done everything you set out to achieve and then it's more of a grind. It just, well, it just, it grew so fast and it was hard to appreciate after a while how good we had it. And I just remember in the early days when there would be, you know if Apple called or Nike or some big company called and or emailed and we started working with them it would be such a rush to get to work with these companies that I'd looked up to for a long time and the projects were so exciting but then it came to a point that and I realized this the last years when it didn't matter who who working with it didn't matter who the client was, it didn't really matter what the project was.

16:16I had a hard time getting excited about the work. And that's when I realized, and that's part of the reason, you know, I sold it. I realized that I can't, I can't keep doing this. Although, you know, looking back now, you know, I think it's been, it's been four years and I'm sort of in the process of restarting the agency because I really enjoy that kind of work. I really, really enjoy working with extremely capable people on projects that are complicated and can potentially touch billions of people.

16:56Katy Cowan:So something with a bit more purpose. Yes. Yeah. I think I'm going to build it slightly different to what i built before but it's um i think i didn't fully realize i don't think this is a very common thing you don't when you're in it you don't fully appreciate what you have no it's it's that like that that thing like you know nobody tells you that when you're living in the good old days when all the good old days it's it's right now i think it's it's that's always the case it's you always look back on what you had and realize that you had it pretty good yeah and you didn't see what you had this season of the creative beam podcast is sponsored by james cropper and its new color source range is a game changer for designers it gives you direct access to 50 carefully created shades with a choice of weights and textures straight from their lake district mill beautiful sustainable colored paper made in britain by experts who live and breathe color i think work can be definitely a drug that rush that you talk about of the the winning the progress overcoming obstacles fixing things it's a very satisfying career path but you know to be able to recognize where you get to a point where it's not satisfying anymore and potentially quite damaging to you know our health or time or the burnout is real I suppose is what I'm trying to say yes and I mean that was part of it I didn't have a partner I was it was something I built on my own um obviously with a lot of great people as as employees but it was still that's that's different and I I didn't feel for the whole time that I ran it that that was any way for me to take a break yeah and so i had to work through burnout multiple times which i think ultimately led me to where you know that's that's what led me to this position this point of saying you know there was nothing that happened that made me happy but it was successful and what would you say was because you know how why was it successful obviously yourself i think yeah i think we there's a combination of factors it was I had the right experience when I started it I was I had been working in this field for a long time and I had I took gradual steps to this point even though I you know I thought I knew more than I did but I did know quite a bit we were very lucky with timing I moved to San Francisco in 2014.

19:45And that time was just an amazing time to have an agency, digital agency, especially in San Francisco. Got really lucky with some of the first clients we got. Got really lucky with some of the first people we hired. And then it was just a grind. It was getting up every day and deciding that the work came first, the quality of the work came first and making decisions that were sometimes really hard to accomplish whatever the goal of the project was.

20:18Katy Cowan:So you're back in Iceland and now it's a case of, well, there are some aspects of that which I really enjoyed. But let's now try and carve a career out for myself that works for these other things as well, like family and spare time. Yeah, I want to make sure that there's more stability, that it's built for the long term and that I have a way to do this that doesn't completely engulf my life. Is it nice being home? Was it an easy decision going home? Well, we moved back in COVID. And me and my wife, we had talked about this for a long time. We never saw, we talked about this again and again. We couldn't see that anyway where we would move back.

21:08And then COVID came and we were in San Francisco and it was a very, very challenging time. Meanwhile, Iceland was going through, obviously, COVID as well, but it was handled very differently here partly because it's an island and we were able to go back and it was just much more free and and so as covid extended we decided okay well we're going to stay here and then you know the kids went to school and you know a year or two later it's it's it's a new routine yeah that

21:42Katy Cowan:freedom gosh we we certainly handled things a lot differently in the uk yeah yeah it was i mean it It was really tough. I was in San Francisco. We basically spent, I think, three months inside an apartment. Oh, gosh. With no balcony? No balcony. Oh, that's, yeah. It wasn't good on our mental health, was it? No, I think it was. I mean, I think, I don't know what could have been done differently, but it just it definitely felt like we we suffered a lot more than we realized I think it's one of those things that we're all just quite happy to forget and move on and it's like you know everyone's like rolls their eyes and like you know the c word yeah it is it is this thing that that happened that nobody talks about yeah strange strange all time what do you think of twitter's new boss into the fine pan um i think twitter was a twitter was never able to live up to its full potential as a company um and it it started off with a big bang and i think it was such a simple idea that really caught on and it was in many ways great You know, there's pros and cons to social media and Twitter.

23:13And I think it was kind of this beast that nobody really knew what to do with. And then it was, you know, taken off the market by someone that had a different vision for it. And I think he has executed on his vision for it. I think he has done what he wanted to do with it.

23:34Katy Cowan:That's another name we don't mention. yeah i mean it's just uh um you know people have different priorities um and um people see things differently i think in general that's healthy you don't have to agree with everyone no exactly yeah i'm not suggesting i think one way or the other it's just interesting to get people's takes i'm very open-minded there's a nuance isn't there that's that's the irony of talking about twitter Yes. I mean, it's this place where people, you know, certain kinds of people go to talk about issues. And it's a bit of a battleground. And I think that's what it's always been.

24:21And I think it's maybe become that even more. But I think that's intentional.

24:26Katy Cowan:Yeah, it's caused a lot of polarisation. They always regretted, Jack Dorsey always regretted the retweet, didn't they? The retweet button. yeah i think i mean with you know looking back on any any any decisions you make as a as a leader in a company i think you can always find things to regret yes and now blue sky have you got an account on blue sky i do have an account on blue sky i'm not very active and it's more than anything it's just fatigue with with there's so many platforms it's it's impossible uh to really you know just having one is enough more than enough and so yeah i picked mine a while ago and it's where i'm staying good i would love to know if you think social media is on the way out or whether you think it's changing i think social media is is not on the way out i think there's always going to be new there's always going to be new challenges there's always going to be something new that comes along.

25:31But I think as a model, it financially is extremely successful. And it captures people's hearts and minds and time in a way that very few things do. And so I think it is, I don't see it going away. I'm not sure if it's a good thing or not. I think many ways it's it's it's bad but it's definitely saying yeah yeah definitely there's um more

26:04Katy Cowan:message boards and private communities springing up though and is that something you if you would you be tempted to start a message board and are you part of any communities online um not formal more informal communities i think the um the again but again it's the same thing it's just there's limited time that you have and I I've invested a fair amount of time into one platform and I know I understand the rules of that platform um and learning new rules and new norms it's like I'm an old man you're not an old man if you're an old man I'm an old woman because we know how I know how old you are and you know how old I am so come on I'm only just I'm just coming out of my teenage years yeah well i'm too old i'm an old dog i am too old to learn the tricks our um generation is the one that never grew up apparently we're gonna live forever that's again that's oasis i know just just sprinkling in some because i know you're a big fan i'm just keeping you happy do you enjoy it yeah but i do you know just commenting i do think that's true I think I definitely don't feel like I'm a grown-up I just feel old yeah well you've you've been through it haven't you you've been through it it's uh not been easy for you was there ever a moment in your life where you thought maybe this isn't who I want to be multiple times yeah and that's why I keep switching who I am and I think that's um been a way for me to keep sane because I've had the ability to switch careers multiple times and it's it's been really rewarding to try new things and with that also become a different person in my personal life.

27:57Katy Cowan:Yeah do you think that we're entering the age of the creative generalist or do you think that's all utter bollocks? I don't know. I think there's room for both. I think there is room for a generalist. And I definitely consider myself a generalist, but I really enjoy working with a specialist. And I think a good team has a good mix of both. A generalist usually is someone who is able to see, you know, know enough about certain things to maybe build, sort of collect the wisdom of the team together. But then you need really specialized, really smart people if you want to do something that's excellent.

28:42You need people that have spent a lot of time thinking about something. And I don't have the patience for it, so it's very good for someone else to ask.

28:52Katy Cowan:How do you find smart people? I spend a lot of time talking to people. I spend a lot of time reading books and reading different things. And when I find someone that I'm fascinated by, I often just reach out to them and sometimes I respond. Sometimes. It's always the case. At least you try. Yeah, I think so. I mean, there's nothing wrong with trying. Do you ever feel like your situation has held you back? Or do you feel like that's just like mostly people are held back by their own kind of lack of confidence, perhaps, or lack of trying? I think in some ways, yes. I can definitely make a case for me using a wheelchair is limiting.

29:47But I think we're all limited. And I think what I decided a long time ago is not to use it as an excuse and to make decisions that I want to make and then figure out how to make them come true. and I think the limits that I see for most people I'm not saying that I'm not one of them but I definitely try and push against it the limits I see in most people are mental I think we all have these mental blocks that are stopping us from from doing or becoming the people that we want to become who do you want to become it changes it definitely changes it is something like I said before i've kind of gone through my bucket list and i've i've i've ticked off pretty much everything and uh i'm right now in the process of figuring out you know what is the next thing i want to

30:45Katy Cowan:become yeah i was gonna say if you've done all your bucket list you just need a new one i definitely need a new one i need some things and i uh uh the yeah um do you have any thoughts any ideas well you're going to go and see oasis at wembley so i think that's definitely you know maybe glastonbury i've been to glastonbury yeah i'd love to go again but um yeah i'm i'm open if anyone listening has thoughts ideas definitely send them to me i'd recommend a bungee jump but it hurt my neck is that the thing that actually caused your injury no that's another injury That's one I've lived with since I was 22.

31:32Yeah, I went skydiving. That was, I was always very afraid of heights and that worked. I stopped being afraid of heights after that.

31:41Katy Cowan:Brave. I don't think I could do that. Yeah, I don't think I could do it now, but it worked at the time to sort of overcome this thing that I felt was holding me back. Yeah. Maybe learn a new instrument? Yeah. uh my the only problem is my my my my hands so i have i use a wheelchair and uh it's because i have uh muscle dystrophy and it's it's reached my hands you know and it is becoming more challenging to do things with my hands but i there is there are things that i'm i'm i'm learning now that are that require less manual input um to make sounds and that's been really enjoyable yeah you could get one of those machines where you could sample your own voice and play around with that that would be interesting i have one of those yeah it's been very fun great stuff great well i hope you find a more things to add to that list i'll have a think myself and send you an email who's this friend that you've known since you were five who you're going to go and see oasis with so yeah we met at school.

32:48He is a chef now and he is just this, I have, I'm very lucky in that, that most of my friends, obviously I've made, you know, some new ones, but I have a lot of friends since I was, you know, one of my friends I met when I was two and then there's a few that I met when I was six when I saw it at school and then when I went to another school I was 13 and that's sort of the,

33:14Katy Cowan:my core friend group that's lovely not many people have that you know yeah i know it's it's it's i think it's rare and i think it's precious and i um and i try and really work on those relationships because those those people um are not you know there a lot of them are very unlikely friendships you know because you know it's 40 years ago plus years ago and so we've all gone in different directions in terms of our careers and our lives but i think having that uh something to ground you is really really uh precious absolutely no matter where life takes you you've always got that crew that have known you since you were you know in nappies yes and they know they know your bullshit and they're not gonna lie to you they're gonna tell you what's what and you're gonna listen yeah yeah it's it's it's a really good group well apart from those lovely people what or the bit of kindness have you experienced recently that really made you, you know, take a step back?

34:21I, there is, there's a lot to choose from, but I think the biggest one, my wife is an activist and spends a lot of time, you know, pushing for a better world. And I am constantly inspired by her and her work. and she spends a lot of time with refugees and people from countries that are, you know, war-torn and she, yeah, she just, she inspires me every day to push on, to do better.