Imagination, Conviction and Design That Isn't Neutral, with Jessie McGuire

0:06Katy:Where is the time going? It is flying by this month and this week I'm joined by Jessie McGuire, partner at Thought Matter in New York. Oh my goodness, I'm so excited about this chat because Jessie is someone who thinks really deeply about design, not just how it looks but what it actually does and the impact it has, plus like the responsibility that comes with it. So in this wonderful chat, we talk about imagination, why it matters more than ever and how it can actually shape the world around us. We get into conviction, creative courage and why staying a little uncomfortable might be the whole point.

0:42Katy:And we also chat about her journey over the last decade at Thought Matter, including some very well-deserved recognition with a National Design Award. If you've ever wondered whether your work really makes a difference, like really makes a difference, this one's for you.

1:01Katy:This episode is sponsored by Adobe Acrobat Studio, the AI powered workspace that's changing how we work with documents. Whether you're dealing with contracts, research, client briefs or creative projects, Acrobat Studio brings everything together in one place. so you can spend less time managing files and more time doing the work that matters. Find out more at the link in the show notes.

1:27Katy:I love that when we just met then, Jessie, and it's been a while since we've known each other, only over emails and online, but you said you were very loud and very short. I love that. That is true. We were adjusting our mic levels, weren't we? Getting ready. I mean, I always get rusty. I start a new podcast season and I always forget what I'm doing. Now we're getting into lots of different things with you today. You've had some big news, we'll get into that shortly, but you are basically telling me when we were just having a chat just then, you were talking so passionately about the fact that design is the things that get you really excited about design in this amazing industry is the imagination that plays that central role.

2:14Katy:I mean, was that why you started Thought Matter in the first place? Yeah, imagination is something that I think a lot about. So I have been at Thought Matter for 10 years. We were started by our founder, Tom Jaffe. And so I started with him a year after Thought Matter got off the ground. So I've been really working with him to shape the vision, the work. And it's been a wild ride. I have to not use the word journey. There's been so many times with him that I'll be like, what a journey this has been. And he's like, are you in karaoke? Why do you keep saying journey? But so it's become kind of a joke with us that is it really a journey or is it been, you know, something that has for me has almost been my, so far my life's work, right?

3:07And working with a founder who loves experimenting, who's not afraid of failure in many ways, and is as curious as somebody can be, I feel like was a perfect match to my own ambition. I have, which we'll get into, I'm incredibly relentless when I love something or get into something, I work as hard as I can to find the edges of what that is. And so I feel like my own ambition of thinking about design's role and creativity in the world around us matched with Tom's appetite for experimentation has really brought us Thought Matter. So Thought Matter is an independent design studio. We're here in New York and we are a little over 10 years old.

3:59And it's been incredible what we've been able to accomplish, not only for our clients, but also for the benefit of the public as it relates to imaginative works. So excited to talk about all of that with you today.

4:14Katy:Yeah, forgive me. I always had I always made the assumption that you were the founder of Thought Matter. And I get I bet you get that quite a lot, actually. Yep. So I was named partner a few years ago back in 23. And that was a lot of conversations about what is the nuances between a founder, a partner, a leader, you know, all the words that you can you can put to it. And I do think titles are always important, but at the end of the day, it's what you can really accomplish with what you've been given. And so I've truly been given a runway by Tom for 10 years. When I started as a consultant, when I think I was a strategy director to managing director to partner to I feel like now just somebody who has benefited from being around the resources and the possibility that we've made for ourselves in 10 years.

5:12Katy:So, yeah, you're one of these rare creatives that stay somewhere and works really hard up the ladder in that same place. Yeah, it goes back, I think, for me about being really good or bad. Like I really am relentless. Like ask anybody who meets me, they're like, oh, boy, here we go. When she gets on to something, she's going to keep going. And that's been true for my for my whole life. Really? Do you come from a big family? I get the impression you do. I love that you said that. I don't. I'm an only child. Oh, interesting. I got that completely wrong. Wow. So that's the energy I'm getting. I just had this vision of you being surrounded by a lovely big family that you had to have a loud voice to be heard, to speak up amongst all of your kind of siblings.

5:56Katy:But no, you're just, you were right there on your own. Yes. I actually joke a lot with different people that I can be an older, you know, the sort of the archetype of the older sister. The older sister gets everything done. I can assume the role of the older sister. I also can assume the role of the younger sister who just pushes boundaries and pushes buttons. So it depends on the room I'm in, what I take on. But certainly being an only child shaped, I think my appetite for connection. I really do love being around people. I say this all the time, much to my children and my husband's chagrin, that I hate being alone.

6:41You've got to have company. I have to have company. I would, I would, um, because I, I get energy from people. Like even, you know, we just met and I get so excited when I get to like talk with somebody and I hear what they're thinking and sort of reading, reading the room and like, what are people excited? And, um, you know, I love when there's a lot of energy and I pull from it. If there's not, I also love like bringing the energy, Like what could, what could, um, you know, that sort of balance out, but I certainly am an extrovert to extrovert. Like I get fueled by more people, more things, more ways to, to see, um, yeah, what, what, what's possible and how to, um, um, keep going.

7:25Uh, but I feel like I love keeping going with other people. If I'm by myself, then it's just static and I'm just there.

7:31Katy:Yeah. Waiting. And then you're like, what now? Yeah. Yeah. I get that. I get that. And so is this why we see your face everywhere that you've been sort of the fact that you've become the face of thought matter? Yes. I've it's it's funny that you say that because there's been so many times I'm like, oh, I got to give a I have a headshot. But there has been a lot of conversations about what and how do you talk about work? And I mean, you obviously with Creative Boom have been so wonderful in uplifting and amplifying voices. And I feel like people want to know the people behind the work and behind the stories and behind what's happening.

8:14And so I guess, you know, have been that person. I also think that that has played a role in my own leadership because I love being able to work with designers and strategists and writers to help shape how to talk about the work. I say this all the time that, you know, really wonderful thinkers sometimes can like sit in the work, but then when they're asked to present it, maybe they're not in the right mood or the conditions aren't right and they struggle with it. I think what I've really been excited by is helping to create those conditions to be able to talk about it. Or if somebody doesn't know how to shape that, like I show up in the room and able to have those conversations, you know, certainly have had so much opportunities to talk to different clients in different sectors at different levels and in different ways and in different political conditions.

9:16And so I've loved that experience, but I feel like it's always been in service of bigger ideas and a team behind me. So even though, yeah, I was just joking, I've had to send many a headshots in and then, you know, you can think of like, is that the right lighting? Does that look like me? Do I want that? And then you're like, why am I even thinking about that? Like, this is just to show the person, a person behind a team because Thought Matter though has gone through different sizes uh we've always been a team of people it's always been more than just tom and i um over the the 10 years so it's how do we represent all of that thinking all of that work um both for our team but also our clients uh so yeah i guess um i've been lucky to

10:04Katy:be the face of that yeah and you had to deal with lots of roller coasters especially in the last five or six years it's been it's been really tough hasn't it yes it has um yeah i so i started with thought matter in 2016 was it 20 yeah 2016 um which was a year of for for me um possibility of having potentially the first female president really thinking through what was next and um in New York City and I was really eager and wide-eyed and bushy-tailed coming out of the Obama administration. And then when the election happened, you know, living in my New York City bubble, shocked. And with the first Trump administration, that was really where, as a design studio that was just getting started thinking about design's role in public life, That's what we were thrown into.

11:07What was our role, our ability, our opportunity to create work that history would look back on?

11:16Katy:Gave you purpose, gave you that extra dimension. You must have gone mad during the pandemic then if you love to be around people. Yeah. So then the, so 2020 was definitely a, another sort of marker, I think of, of what has shaped Thought Matter. We actually moved into a brand new space in February of 2020. we had moved from a really beautiful space in Flatiron but it was small and we really we love throwing parties we love bringing the community together and so we were like we need a space that's a little more modular like we can bring a lot of people in and so we moved two buildings down to a space that was almost more than double the size because we thought it would be great to have panels and community and it was going to be it was open concept it was just it was a beautiful space.

12:08We moved in February of 2020. And I remember in March, we said we were going to do a quick test to see if we could work from home because it looked like there was something happening and we might need to work remotely. Oh, wow. That's well caught. Yeah. So it wasn't until probably 2022 that we came back to the space to really utilize it. So Tom and I made the decision to keep the space. It's like I said, it's absolutely beautiful. And it holds many pieces from Tom's contemporary art collection. So it's just like a gallery meets studio meets community space. And so even thinking about not having it just felt so anti our ethos.

12:59So we decided to keep it, which was a big decision. And we worked mostly remotely with the team for, yeah, two and a half years. Wow.

13:10Katy:What do you think has been the biggest change since then and how you operate and how everyone is? That's a great question. I think from before the pandemic, we almost didn't know what we didn't know. We were a new studio. We were working with clients that knew that they were maybe the first in that sector, like our first packaging client, knew that they were our first packaging client, our first community arts client, knew they were our first community arts client. And so we together were shaping the work. And then the pandemic hit. And like I said, we had gotten a lot of momentum coming into moving into a new space.

13:53We were making inroads in the industry, you know, the design industry here in New York City. I had sat on the AIGA New York board. So I was getting to know people in the industry. And so we had a lot of wind beneath our sails, as they say, or yeah. Wings. And wings. Yeah. Wind beneath my wings. But feeling really, really eager. And then the pandemic happened. And I think in some ways it made us pause and stop and say, what is really at the core of what we're doing? Is it just being, for me, but also the studio, is it just being around people or is it the impact that our work can have? And so when we were sitting all at home in our bedrooms, really contemplating probably more existential questions, it forced us to really then think what then is the role of creativity.

14:47And so we did some public, large public scaled work. We did a project called COVIDity, which was creativity in the time of COVID. Wow. Feels like an age away. I know. And so we, we as a studio, we're talking a lot, we had a lot of Zooms. I will tell you, I sat on a lot of Zooms in my bedroom, had a lot of happy hours on Zooms. There's like a lot of staring at people's faces on screen. But we talked a lot about our own mental health. Like, how are we feeling? Are we isolated? Are we excited? Are we, you know, all the range of emotions? And so through that, we said, well, could we do a project that truly brings that to life?

15:32And there must be so many other creatives going through this. And so we pulled that together into this project called Covidity, which were these six surreal worlds. And then we wanted to project that. No, actually, we wanted to create like almost like a gallery of them. But then we decided to do what we call digital graffiti, where we projected them on different sites in New York City. and it was one night only. And so anyone who was walking by, I think we had four sites in New York City, one being underneath the Brooklyn Bridge. Anyone walking by were able to see these five surreal worlds to really think about what was the role of this thing happening to all of us collectively called COVID.

16:19Like what was the impact it was having on us as people? And so that really was a wonderful project during the pandemic that I think got us back into, okay, we actually can work with clients and help them navigate this time. And so we had sort of a mantra at the time, which was how do we shine a light on unmet needs? And so it really was thinking about what are some of the unmet needs that are happening now that we're seeing new ways of looking at our city, new ways of looking at our healthcare, new ways of looking at how people treated each other, what was essential work, what was not. Who was more important?

16:57What does that look like? So that really drove a lot of our client work at that time. And then, yeah, I mean, so I feel like that really was a big shift in the possibility for a design studio to show up in public life.

17:13Katy:Yeah. I mean, you've obviously benefited from being in New York. Going to amazing creative hubs such as the Big Apple is always going to be beneficial to your business. So it's quite interesting to know that at that weird time everybody across the world was put into exactly the same boat and suddenly where you were located didn't really matter so I guess in that sense it made a lot of us pull our socks up and put them up a lot higher and really have a think about what our values were and all are and how that we want to grow and how we want to move and I really think it gave us an opportunity to level up if that's a crude way of putting you know that and during what was you know an awful time really yeah I mean in some ways um and I think somebody I read this or we were talking about this but it really uh hit home for me which was there was a moment in the pandemic and again I feel very lucky and privileged I was able to work from home At the time, I had a two-year-old and a six-year-old, and my husband was able to work from home.

18:21And so we were very lucky in that way. But somebody had said, when the world stops, it actually makes you think about the decisions you've made that have designed your life. Yeah. And I was like, wow, like that. And as we were, as I just established, I like moving and moving and moving. I sometimes don't stop. And so that was a moment where I was actually forced to have to stop and look around and like, was this the life that I was purposefully designing? And I realized it was like, I was so, I mean, now I look back, right. But I had a two-year-old watching like Coco Melon and like crazy, but I felt so blessed to have two children, be raising a family in the city, to have a husband who's an artist and also an educator.

19:10And like, we had so many conversations just about, you know, are we where we want to be? Is this how we want to be raising our children? Where do we want to be putting our energies? What is the, what do you, as a creative individual, how do you use your talents? And I will say it put all of that into perspective and even putting that then those energies into thought matter really was a gift. I had a gift to be able to sit on a Zoom with, you know, any, at any given time, it was between 10 and probably 18 people. And we had amazing Zoom parties. I remember we had a holiday party called Into the Zoom-a-land.

19:53And so it was like this Alice in wonderland what did you go dressed as what did i get i think i wore a lot of sparkles and we hired a dj we had a dj on zoom um that's great and yeah but but but although like i said the energy and that perspective was put in put into the team was put into how do we connect with each other and how do we then find clients that really would um i don't want to say feed our soul but clients and work that really felt worth our time.

20:26Katy:Yes. You were one of the studios that stayed then because quite a few people left New York during that period. And then I guess what you were left with, has it changed a lot since then, the design industry in New York? I would say, has the design industry changed a lot in New York? Are you just in your lovely bubble and you just focus on your kind of family and your work? Because it's the same in any city, isn't it? Yeah, no, yeah. You know, I've actually, I think coming out of the pandemic, I realized how important it was to talk to emerging designers. And we've always loved interns. So we've always had young emerging designers to come into our studio because I've always felt that the resources that we've had as a studio studio should be shared with those that might not have an opportunity to see a studio like ours.

21:25So that has always been true. We've had high school interns, we've had college interns, but coming out of the pandemic in 22, 23, I talked to so many young designers that were either going to school on Zoom, how you go to art school on Zoom is like beyond me, but they did it. You had young people who were doing internships on Zoom. You had young people who weren't going, like, and I had mentioned before, I sat on the AIJ New York board where like it was all around events. So there were no more events to go to. There was no more like, oh, I bumped into and saw such and such person from such and such agency.

22:03And so I actually wanted to, as a studio, I wanted us to really think, how could we expand our own access and open our own doors? And so we did, we started an event series called Afterthought. One person's afterthought is another person's inspiration. And it was all about emerging designers coming into our space, thinking about their portfolios, thinking about how to talk about their work. How could they meet other designers at different moments in their career? And we got so much from it. Like, again, it was, it did start very much like, how can we give back? But then as we did three events, one around identity, one around belonging, one around what was the last one?

22:47I think it was around innovation. We as individuals having sat on Zoom with our clients and in our briefs and in our challenges, and you know, you kind of get all a little angsty about it. We realized that when you talk to young designers that can't be, they're not jaded yet, hopefully. There's just so much possibility that they see in the work because they don't know what they don't know. And I think it refueled us. I think in 22, 23, when we had those afterthought events, we became even more energized by winning new work with new clients because we were like, wait, the more work we get, the more opportunity it is for us to hire some of these young people or these emerging designers to come into our space and get the same experiences that we've had.

23:36So you asked me before, Like, do I think that the design industry has changed in New York post the pandemic? And in many ways, I hope that it has. And I think as I kind of think towards the future and what's next, I want to see more opportunities for the design industry to talk to each other and ourselves. And I've always said this, and I really do believe it, that rising tides lift all boats. Yes. Like, I really do believe as an industry, if we can all hold hands, maybe not hold hands, but really look at each other and say, what work are you doing? Are you elevating what we're doing? Are you thinking about the public benefit in our work?

24:24Are you pushing back on clients that might not be doing the kind of work we want to see? Are you questioning power in the spaces we should be questioning it? Because I think it'll just make us all better for it.

24:40Katy:Adobe Acrobat Studio is sponsoring today's episode. And I want to tell you about two features that honestly stopped me in my tracks when I first heard about them. The first is generate podcast. You can take any document, a report, a research paper, a long brief, and Acrobat Studio will turn it into a podcast. an actual audio conversation from your written content in minutes. The second is generate presentation. Same idea, feed it a document and it builds you a full structured presentation. No starting from a blank slide, no reformatting, no wrestling with layouts. It just does it. For anyone who creates a lot of content or needs to communicate complex ideas in different formats, these two features alone are worth exploring.

25:23Katy:Head to the link in the show notes to find out more. I was in New York, actually. I came over for a client in February 2020. And my husband said to me, oh, there's this new thing, you know, developing in China. He said, are you sure you want to go? Because it's looking pretty serious. I'm not sure what's going on. I was like, I'll be fine. Be all right. And so I was in New York when you were probably moving into your new space. And I've always felt that New York is like a little village everybody knows each other but um it's like the same with any city everybody's busy everybody's got their heads down and working it must be hard like trying to do these extra initiatives to give back when you've already got so much going on with your work and your clients i mean what what would that look like if you did get people together you could call it something like you know you could call it something to do with raising the you know the tide and do a kind of meet up on a monthly basis have a have a round table i'll come and host it yes oh i love that i'm we actually are thinking about uh larger public programming as we head into this 2026 year uh thinking about um as a studio um how do we push where communication design is going and so we've been putting a lot of thoughts on how we could do round you know bring bringing people together having roundtables, making it both internal and external, kind of pressure testing some of the, I'm going to call them sort of empty promises that sometimes us as designers, we say like, oh, design can change the world.

27:08Like, okay. But like how, where, and when, and when it shows up, when I've actually been thinking about this, when an opportunity presents itself to you that might change your world or the collective world. I've actually learned many times people run away from that because it usually is unexpected. It's unclear. There's ambiguity to it. You don't know if you're going to like do the right or wrong thing. And I actually think a lot of people, maybe not intentionally, but subconsciously run away from that because it feels really hard.

27:47Katy:Yeah, it feels uncomfortable, maybe. Maybe they don't know how to, you know, tackle it when there's lower hanging fruit, I guess. Yeah. So I've been thinking a lot, like, how do we bring the industry together? Like, maybe you're hosting such a wonderful host hosting the conversation of what do you do when you're presented an opportunity that could potentially change your future or somebody else's future? and how do you find confidence in that insecurity? How do you find your own conviction in a moment when you might be pushed back on? Because I do think that a lot of times you think like, oh, but if I do that, somebody might not like it.