Pum Lefebure on Yard Sales, Ballets and Building a Dream Design Army

0:06Pum Lefebure:Pum Lefebure joins us today, co-founder and chief creative officer of Design Army in Washington, D.C. Bangkok roots, U.S.-trained graphic designer, a creative director who pairs high craft with fearless storytelling. Think the Washington Ballet, Hong Kong Ballet, Bloomingdale's Big Ideas, Flawless Execution. She's known for radical clarity. From day one, she targeted fashion, performing arts and culture, then built the portfolio to match. Even turned a yard sale poster into her first client. Proof that every touchpoint is a calling card. In this episode, we get into designing your dream creative career and what it takes.

0:51Pum Lefebure:Choosing clients with intent, running two buckets, paid work and passion work, leading under pressure when shoots go sideways, staying relevant as tech, taste and timelines shift. Get the kettle on, make it Yorkshire tea. Let's go.

1:12Pum Lefebure:This season of the Creative Boom podcast is proudly sponsored by James Cropper, the last meal standing in Britain for premium coloured paper. Its new colour source range puts designers first, giving you direct access to 50 stunning shades in a range of weights and textures straight from the mill. Incredible colour crafted in the Lake District and delivered straight to your door. Discover the paper that brings your ideas to life via paperandpackaging.jamescropper.com

1:48Pum Lefebure:Hum, it is so nice to meet you. at long last we are finally having our lovely chat. Nice to meet you too. I'm looking forward to this one. How are you today? I'm just great. I was really pleased to see. I think you were having a good old British cup of tea then. Yes, how do you know? Well, what can I say? I know a good brew. I can spot one a mile off. It's English tea. That's, you know, one of my rituals every morning for the last 10 years, I have the same breakfast, which is English tea, milk. Yeah. I used to be a heavy coffee drinker. And since, you know, I've been on shoot so much and I travel for clients or be on a photo shoot and have to get up early.

2:37And I just switch from coffee to tea because I say my life, I need some sort of consistency every morning. And, you know, having a teabag with you at all times, whether you're on the plane or jet lag in Asia or get up super early or at the shoot where, you know, there's not really good coffee. It just gives you that little constant consistency in your life.

3:06Pum Lefebure:Yeah, it's really nice. You're talking to somebody who's British. this is part of my everyday ritual I have about eight cups of tea a day it's what keeps me going um but now now you've got to bring in the ritual of um you've got to have a biscuit I mean I don't actually have a biscuit with my tea but that's the that's the tradition over here you have to have a biscuit with the tea but do you do you have a biscuit of choice or do you not go there you know I usually just a tea with milk very simple yes I Or sometimes with a little collagen powder in there. Very good. Yeah, I need to remember to do that.

3:46Pum Lefebure:I keep forgetting. I did try some collagen powder that was so strong that my tea turned into like bovril. It was horrible. Do you have a particular tea brand? My aunt who lives in Cambridge gave me this really inexpensive tea called Red Level. Oh, okay. from like a grocery store at Sarsaberry is that what it is in England I'm gonna send you some Yorkshire tea bags are the best okay send it to me I just because the tea bag came in um like a little round pouch and it's super tasty yes well I feel like the pressure's on now what if you hate Yorkshire tea and then I'll be forever in I would love to try all right I will send you some absolutely now this isn't a podcast about tea although we do like to warm things up we're actually talking to you today about how to design your dream creative career and find your ideal clients and in 40 minutes that sounds like a lot to get through but I feel like with you from everything I've learned and seen you have a brilliant way of getting right to the heart of the truth and so you're not we're not going to sort of dilly-dally you're going to tell us how to get there how does somebody build a creative career as successful as yours go I think you have to have first you have to have a goal you know you have to have a vision of where do you want to be five years from now and you have to have that vision because without a goal it's really hard to score.

5:27Like it's impossible, right? You can go day by day and finish this project, next project, but then you not stay on the path at where you want to reach. So I, you know, I live in Washington, DC. And when I started my own business with Jake, my husband, we thought, okay, we want to do work in art, fashion, entertainment, because we like those. But I live in Washington. Washington, D.C. is not known for Creative City. You know, the government shut down today. I mean, that's when you think of D.C., you think of the government, White House, you know, like we are the capital United States. So very, in a way, not that sexy.

6:16But we thought, OK, this is cool. is our opportunity to change the city. And I love this city. I'm originally from Bangkok, Thailand, and that's a huge city, you know, 15 million people. And this is somewhat manageable and I quite like it. And we thought, okay, we're going to start with just do something cool. It's, you know, funny, one of my first clients came in from a yard sale.

6:41Pum Lefebure:Wow, okay. How did that happen? Were you sort of sat outside just waiting for customers? No, we used to have full-time jobs. And then, you know, I was creative director and Jacob was creative director as a branding agency too. And we just got married and we moved to the new house and we thought, okay, we need to get rid of some of this college furniture. We don't want it anymore. So we opened a garage and created this beautiful retail shop in our garage. And I designed flyers to put all around Washington. And it looks like a fashion brand, you know, in a way. It's like yard sale and like design.

7:22It's so cool. And then we had a lot of people came in and then it was three o 'clock in the afternoon. One of the guys came in and it's like, who is this? Who designed this poster? And I thought I did. And he's like, OK, I am starting my own business and I'm starting my own consulting firm with

7:46Pum Lefebure:my partner and we are looking for a graphic designer and that person used to work for President Clinton oh yeah well as you do in Washington DC right so so like you never know so like from a yard sale then he and his partner become our became our first clients and they connect us to the Washington Ballet they connect us to HRC so every opportunity you know you Sometimes it's luck, but then you have to do everything at the highest level of craft, even a yard sale scientist. You never know. I love that. And that's how we start design. I mean, we start getting freelance clients to the point that we have to quit our job and start our own thing.

8:36Pum Lefebure:That's the first time I've heard a designer say they got their big break by designing their own yard sale. That's brilliant. And did you manage to sell everything that day? No, there's like stuff in there still, but it was fun to, you know, to get the first client through a yard sale sign. I think great things happen when you do something creative, when you just think outside the box and just really go for it. Right. You know, it's like super cool, beautiful yard sale sign all around the city. People grab it and you never know. So where did this creativity come from, Pum? What was your sort of childhood like?

9:15Pum Lefebure:Like, did you always have this dream? You know how you said you set out to have a goal. Did you always have this dream that you would be doing what you're doing today? Or was it just not something that ever crossed your mind? I grew up as an artist. I always draw and paint. And I'm the art kid at school. And my mom always, I told my mom that when I grew up, I want to be an artist. And not until my high school year, I started at a campaign for United Colour of Benetons. and it was you know designed by t-ball carmen and and i was just mind-blowing by the visual image i mean i if you remember there's like one ad that have three raw hearts and it's a white black yellow you know and there's one ad it's like the image of a priest kissing a nun and it was as a girl who went to Catholic school all my life I was shocked.

10:16Pum Lefebure:Yes, well I didn't go to Catholic school but I was brought up a Catholic as well so I understand this, my goodness. You know so and it's just like whoa what is this thing? It's like a visual language that I have never ever seen before and I as a teenage girl I thought it was intriguing and cool you know you're a little bit rebellious and you want something like you know at that time there's no such thing as diversity there's you know but that's back in the 90s and to see that for the first time it was mind-blowing and then I was like okay who what is this thing called and I asked my mom and she said this is called advertising and I thought okay maybe I don't want to be an artist i want to do something cool like this so millions of people can see the work so i i start subscribe or go to the magazine stand and like get um look at color magazine do you remember no no i don't know um color magazine designed by t-ball carmen by the united color benetton And it was just back then, it was not about fashion necessarily.

11:29It's about human all around the world. And it talks about a pandemic. It was talk about equality. It's talk about, you know, the very, very hard subject. And, you know, it's about it's like something that I've kind of have never seen before. and I was become very interested in editorial design. And that's how I told my mom that I want to study in the United States, study graphic design.

12:00Pum Lefebure:So that is incredible. And then you kind of moved to Washington, D.C. and the rest is history. I went to school in Virginia. Oh, okay. As a foreign exchange student for a year, and then I got art scholarship to a school in Virginia as well. Wow. So, and then I called my mom, I was like, you know, I'm not coming home. I'm staying here. I like it here. What did she say? I mean, I was one of the, I'm the oldest girl, right? And she was like, okay, if you think that's your path and life will support you. Oh, that's nice. Yeah. So I started graphic design. Oh, I love that. And I love it because, you know, I always looking at art for my design inspiration, always.

12:54Art is always like, you know, going to be part of who I am and things we create at Design Army. But, you know, design is very practical and fun and more people get to see it. Right. So as a you feel a little bit more modern and cool. And back in the 90s, that's when you stop using cut and paste and the computer gets introduced. And I remember my senior year, the teacher was like, OK, who wants to take this class? You have to cut ruby and lift. And I'm like, oh, no, I'm going to the computer lab. So, you know, I was like start coding the website, you know, it's like like coding the website and doing all kinds of cool experiment with flash.

13:41remember yes i know flash website so it's fun i think design is always involving in and change and you have to keep up all the time and i think that's one thing about being a designer you you you not only have to keep up with the technology you always have to keep up with the business of where the market and brands want. So, for example, when I start as a graphic designer, in the 2000s, we do a lot of annual reports. We do a lot of logo. We do a lot of branding, right? And then we realize that more and more people really spend more time on YouTube. That's like early 2000s, the YouTube was blowing up.

14:34And I was like, OK, we have done enough graphic design. How can we be this YouTube cool? So we started working on fashion client, editorial client locally, you know, do like Washingtonian, Brian Groom, Washingtonian fashion. And then the next thing you know, Bloomingdale saw our work for a redesign magazine for Washingtonian Brian Groom. We went to New York pitching our design company. And then we got a job to design a whole catalog for Bloomingdale Bridal Registry, which is like 200 pages. Next thing you know, we do Bloomingdale's Christmas catalog. And then we get into fashion, even though we sit in Washington.

15:20Right. And it's about, you know, what my advice for the young designers or young entrepreneurs who start a business is that pick your client. wisely. The client that you are picking today is going to set the tone for the client that you're going to have tomorrow. Even though they might not pay as much as, let's say, the client in tech or medical or government, take some of the project that you think is going to build your portfolio to attract the next client.

16:04Pum Lefebure:Yes. That goes back to what you said at the very start, which was always have a goal in mind and work backwards. Right. Because we know that we want to be in fashion. We know we want to do more editorial work. So you kind of need to experiment and do your own project before any client is going to come and hire you for that. Because people will hire you based on your portfolio. So if I'm sitting in Washington, D.C. and I just take all the tech government projects, then the next thing you know, I'm going to have a lot of government projects. And then I would never get to where I want to go. Yeah, I can't imagine you enjoying that kind of work.

16:55No, we had some, but we have none. We have one government project right now. But I think you need to know where you want to go and be willing to put aside, you know, your 60 hours. I'm saying 60 to 80 hours when you start a business because it is. My first five years, I work all the time. And it's almost like you have two buckets, the pay project and the fund project. The pay project, of course, you have to, you know, take whatever you need, because when you start your business, you need to pay yourself, pay your first employees, all that stuff. Right. And you I told Jake, you know, one thing that we want to do to make sure that this Miami is not Pum and Jake, it's going to be a company.

17:51because I don't want to just be two of us as a freelancer when we first started. So, you know, we have to take every project that we can take and then do the fun project. And the fun project is what's going to attract the new talent. Yeah. You know? Yes. Even though it's like self-promotion or do a collaboration with a chocolate brand or do some fun packaging for a local coffee shop. And that's how you start. you know building your own portfolio to what the goal that you want to you know to the sector and

18:27Pum Lefebure:the client you want to be in yeah because i see a lot of people working really hard but i i see these days a lot of people are waiting for things to happen they're not like no and it's not going to happen nothing is going to happen it's like you have to dream you know dream like nothing is going to drop from the sky like it's impossible dream doesn't work unless you do you have to work on it toward that dream like nothing in my experience with any successful creative director entrepreneur every one thing that everyone have in common that they are working very hard and they know exactly what they want.

19:16Pum Lefebure:And have worked backwards. I mean, this is the thing I always say. It's my advice too. If you want something, you have to figure out how to get there and then be prepared to put in the hours. I think in our careers and since we graduated from college, university, there's been this shift to, oh, no, no, no, we're not going to work hard. We've got to, you know, work-life balance and all the rest of it. And that is very true. It is important to look after our health and our mental health and not to burn ourselves out. But it's sometimes muddied that sort of sentiment in that people are just sometimes too shy of hard work.

19:57Pum Lefebure:And I'm sorry, but talent will only get you so far. You have to put in the effort. You have to put in the graft. There's no other way of getting around it, really. And that's the piece of advice that I really don't like, the work-life balance thing. Because you're not good at it. I'm actually not good at it. It's funny, when I started Design Army, I had the grand plan, right? The five-year plan is like, we start Design Army, we're going to build the studio to X amount of people, and then I'll have kids five years down the road. literally one month after we started design army and i went on my own i find out that i got practice and i was like great good timing good timing how am i gonna do it and you know my mom was like okay you work with your husband and you know it's really important to have a work-life balance to separate the two and i i tried and i was miserable you know because like i can't i'm trying to build a company.

21:06I'm super pregnant. What am I going to do? I also like have this dream to build up to like five people within one, like one year. So, so you, you, you just kind of, you know, there is no time for work life balance because what's fixed is 24 hours. So what I, What I've done is like, you know, instead of separate them, kind of reframe the thinking. OK, how I balance this is not about separating the two. It's about like combine it and blend it together to make it fun. So I would take Sophie. She's like two years old. She will come to the photo shoot with us and like a baby because she doesn't know.

21:55I remember she didn't like to have a babysitter. So it was like, okay, come. And then she's like grew up in the business too. And that's the beauty of have your own business. You can do whatever you want. And yeah, so I'm just kind of create my own, the way that worked for me. I think sometimes people listen to many advice and then they try to follow those advice and it doesn't work for them and they feel like a failure. like don't you know like listen to it but you know what works for you exactly and how old Sophie now she's in college she's just turned 20 and yeah and yeah I mean she's grew up in the business and she's starting animation she's in New York and oh yeah and I think you know this is like an example of a kid who grew up in the business and she's very inspired by everything and got, you know, like we are teaching or she's just seen the design process or huge photo shoots since she was little.

23:05So it's not like you be unprofessional to bring kids to work. It's about, So, you know, how do you manage your day and with the most maximum, how can you maximize your time, you know, both work and life that works for you?

23:24Pum Lefebure:Well, it's great to hear that she's doing so well. And she must be, gosh, she must be living the dream. Where did she say she was at college? She in New York. Actually, don't tell me where she is because obviously, you know, privacy. But that's great. And I bet she's really into fashion, isn't she? She's into fashion. She's love, you know, working on animation, but I think she's going to be a good entrepreneur. She's not having her business, you know, something that she wants to do. So I'm excited about that. Yeah, I think if you are somebody who wants to grow a business like Design Army, I think you have to be entrepreneurial.

24:07Pum Lefebure:You have to love fixing one problem after the other, trying to solve that next thing, chasing after the clients. I mean, what is it about running Design Army that you enjoy the most that really keeps you going? Because it will be hard work. Yeah, I have my own business for 20 years now. Wow. And, you know, it's obviously it's up and down, up and down. And, you know, I think we did something right for sure. And one thing I tell myself every day is that, yes, Design Army, we have built a very good company, but you can't get too comfortable. you know boom i tell myself you have to think like a startup every day because when you get comfortable when you feel like you're at the top of the mountain the only way is down so you always have to be nimble and like don't feel that okay we are so great it's gonna be fine, all the client is going to come.

25:17It doesn't work that way. I mean, clients change, the client is getting younger, they want something new and fresh. So for me, my job is always innovate and push, try something new, work on AI, bring in artists, you know, do a performing arts, do the sound design and I think that's what make me alive as a creative director and owner of the company and when you are excited about trying something new you are excited your team too because it's just not the same thing every day you know and and and that takes a lot of passion to have that because some I know a lot of my friends who've been in the business for 20 plus year they're just like okay I'm I have enough I want to retire I was just like I think I I that the retirement scares me I think that when you stop working you stop you you you stop being relevant and when you're not relevant and you just get left behind and for me I don't think I and we're going to retire.

26:32Pum Lefebure:I think I'm the same. I've just started doing vlogging and putting myself as the face of Creative Boom again. It's terrifying. I'm 47 now. And there was a moment where I was like, am I too old to put my face on, which is ridiculous. It's absurd. But am I too old to put my face as the face of Creative Boom? It's ridiculous. But I just want to be doing this forever I love it I mean why why would we do anything else if this is what we absolutely love yeah I think learning is a very important part of being a human you know it's it's a mindset too some sometimes I've seen a lot of designs like oh there's like this AI thing I have to relearn again and there's this new program.

27:25But that's the point. I love it. The world is moving every day. So expect it that it's going to be changed every single day. And your job is to keep up with it.

27:40Pum Lefebure:This season of the Creative Room podcast is sponsored by James Cropper, the last paper mill of its kind still making premium colored paper right here in Britain. For nearly two centuries, they've been perfecting the art of colour and craftsmanship in the Lake District. Their new colour source range gives designers direct access to 50 beautiful shades, all made with care, precision and a deep love of making things properly. Discover the joy of British made paper at paperandpackaging.jamescropper.com. I like the analogy of a mountain because you'll walk to the top of a mountain, or walk sometimes, scramble sometimes, go on your belly and sweating and you get to the top and you think when you get to the top, oh, that'll be it.

28:28Pum Lefebure:But actually the mist clears and you look across the landscape and you see, oh, there's another mountain over there and oh, there's another mountain over there. I've got to climb that as well and that one and so on and so forth. And there is sometimes a point where you must surely say, why do I do this to myself? Yeah, I think sometimes it's getting tired running a business for 20 years, ups and down, you know, the COVID hit. I mean, who knows what's going to happen in the future. But you just have to have the mindset that, you know, I almost like always think that I was born to do this. Yes. You know, and then that's why a lot of work that we have done, not only do the work for the client, whether it's branding or advertising, but I do the work that I like, for example, like something like Hong Kong ballet or something with the art and design, because I really feel like I have this gift of creativity and have great imagination.

29:35My team is the same. We are giving a piece of love, giving a piece of creativity and imagination and projected into the world. You know, in a way, like I take pride of what we do and see our product, our design as a gift to the client, as a gift to a startup, as a gift to a community, as a gift to Hong Kong ballet. It's a different mindset. So it's not client agency relationship and bitching and complaining about client. Like, I don't want to do that. Like, that's like just like see, you know, it's like, wow, someone coming to you and pay for you to imagine.

30:27Pum Lefebure:It's amazing. What a gift. I know. I'm very jealous. That Hong Kong ballet project, and you've been working with them for a while now. The first one that I ever saw was absolutely stunning. It was so colorful and clever because you just incorporated fashion. Were you on set when you did that first shoot? Yeah, that project is, you know, because we have been doing really great photography, art direction for a while, you know, at Design Army. And that was my first project that has 360 design thinking in terms of producing a film. We call it design film, right? So the campaign called Never Standing Still.

31:15So we envision, you know, taking the dancer to dance all around the city of Hong Kong, because the city of Hong Kong is really bright and colorful. And, you know, we want to talk about how ballet can be a very vibrant art form and ballet can bring Hong Kong to life. And, you know, the mood board, how we sketch everything out is like bright, vivid and colorful. And guess what? When we went to Hong Kong for the shoot, it was typhoon. Oh, gosh. Typhoon is coming. And it's like, it was so much work. It was six months of planning because not only we created the storyboard, we also worked with a music and composer to create a piece of music before we go filming.