The Spark: Ashley Johnson on Impulsive Adventures, Inner Critics and the Joy of Not Knowing

0:04Katy Cowan:I am back with the wonderful Ashley Johnson, head of brand narrative at Pentagram in London. Hello, Ashley. Hello again. Well, that was really just a gorgeous chat on Monday. Thank you for joining us on that and telling us all about your career and where your head's at at the moment. It's always fascinating to sort of pick people's brains. Oh, not at all. Thank you so much for the really good questions, some of which I should have been more prepared for than I was. Well, I like to, you know, surprise and delight. What can I say? But we're sort of chilling things out now. We're going to just have a little bit of relaxed conversation.

0:45Katy Cowan:You've picked out some questions that I sent you. I gave you a choice of I think there were about 16. This is just our chance to get to know you a little bit better. You know, like this is the kind of after party with a beer or a glass of wine or a cup of tea, whatever is your poison. Oh, but we'll start off with something creative and reflective. When did you last feel completely out of your depth and what happened next? I when I got this question or when I considered it, I thought to be really emotionally honest with myself, probably this moment doing something like this. I love doing my work, but I often don't talk about my work.

1:24And so that can sometimes make me feel a little bit out of my depth. But, you know, you must make peace with the deep end. I think that, you know, there's more room to swim, isn't there?

1:33Katy Cowan:Well, it doesn't come across. I completely agree. I started this podcast in 2020 and threw myself in. I think my first person I interviewed was Malcolm Garrett. I was balancing microphones on stools and I was sat on the floor whilst he was sat on a chair and I had no idea what I was doing. And I just think that's how I survive. I just don't overthink it. That's so brilliant. I love that. Just go for it. What's the worst that can happen? What's a hill you die on when it comes to creative work? That how the work is done matters as much as what you see. Oh, that is, do you know, you're such a great communicator.

2:11Katy Cowan:You just deliver these lines and I'm like left scrambling for, oh, right. Okay. What do I say next? That was so powerful. Say that again. How the work is done matters as much as what you see. Oh, that's brilliant. And can I steal that? Can I borrow it? You are so welcome to. Everyone should. Right. We're moving on to a bit of personal and playful. What's the most impulsive thing you've ever done while traveling? Okay, you have to buckle up for this one because it's quite a story, but it is a funny one. And I think it does show something. It says something about my ability to write. So that's why I chose this story.

2:47So it's 2006. Pavement is playing on my, I think it was like a green iPod shuffle. There's a Nokia brick phone in my pocket. I think they're probably... Nokia. We call it Nokia. Oh, sorry, Nokia. Forgive me. Oh, no, my passport is going to be from you. You revoked your hour of air, love. And it was that very particular time when I think Ryanair flights were like a pound. But you had to leave Stansted at like 6 a.m. and trains didn't get there that early. And so there were a bunch of mid-20s kids and teenagers just sleeping at Stansted Airport. That's how you could get these cheap flights across Europe.

3:22I was studying in Denmark and traveling through Stansted onto somewhere. So I was wandering around the airport at like 2 a.m. And the soccer ball hits my legs. It's a group of guys who I kind of deduce are heading to Germany, I think, for the World Cup. And I kick the ball back. And after making eye contact with the cute one, carry on. hours later, I'm in the Stansted internet cafe, because that is like, it was 2006. We had to break phones. We had to use like a computer bay. And so I was, you know, on this like ancient PC typing some shitty poetry to like my high school best friend or something like that.

4:00And the soccer ball guy sits right in front of me so I can see his screen and I glance at his email address. and I just put my shitty poetry and drafts in the email and instead write to him. I am not a crazy person. I waited until he left before I sent the email. But I did. And I'm such a good writer that Katie, he wrote back. Don't tell me he's now your partner. Oh no, I wish. I wish. I wish he was my husband. That would have been a great story. I did meet my husband on the internet and like the old version of online dating when you had to like write long reams and stuff as opposed to just show a bunch of pictures of yourself.

4:39Katy Cowan:Oh, you fell in love with your words. Yeah. Oh, what did you say? I'm great. Pick me. Oh God, something way too earnest to share. But yeah, that is my, that is the most impulsive thing I've ever done. I will stop being a journalist and I will move swiftly on. What was your first ever email address? Okay, forgive me. This is so painful. But I really think you should, people should humble themselves regularly, which is why I chose this question. Angelass99 at hotmail.com. This one would love that. I know. It's sort of innocence and like ICQ messenger chaos, like all together. I was branding before I knew what branding was.

5:19That's so good. Yes. But to be clear, 99 is not my birth year. I think it was like maybe the number of troll dolls I had or something like that. So cute. Angel ass. I know. Awful. It's because my name is Ashley. Oh, I see. Oh, not ass. No, no. It was ass. It was A-S-S. But people affectionately in 1999 or whenever it was called me ass as like a, and so that is very cute.

5:46Katy Cowan:I love that. Do you know what mine was? I think it was katiecatfish at hotmail.com. Oh my god, that's so funny. Because when I was a kid, all the boys called me Katie Catfish because I had a little mustache. That is absolutely brutal. But isn't that brilliant? That is like young ownership. Yes, I do love putting it. Take your mockery. Yes. Actually, that's a good point. We did the same thing, didn't we? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Screw him. Screw him. And every time my cousin Kathleen comes over from Australia, she always just starts staring at my upper lip and she goes you need your upper lip waxing I haven't got any sisters you see she's the closest I've got to a sister I'm like shut up bitch you've got you've got like wayward eyebrows leave me alone oh dear I love you I love you Kathleen um if your creativity were a mythical creature what would it be great question um I thought to um do something about a unicorn for my daughter but actually I in truth it's a highly caffeinated phoenix so constantly like burning out and then rising up from the ashes again to you know work on the next draft that's that's a good way to describe it yeah it never stops you never have that moment in between projects I guess I guess it's always just like on to the next thing on to the next thing I often describe it as being on a water slide like it's fun but try and stop yourself on a water slide like push your arms against that you cannot like it's just constantly constantly moving and that's what it feels like I um went down a water slide once in um a swimming costume and the slide was so brutal that it ripped my swimming costume so I came out the other end completely naked oh my god I'm so sorry oh my god I was only about 12 as well 13 so just starting to go through you know and there was all these cute boys and I just came out oh you poor thing I'm so sorry that is a formative experience Well, I've got a solution now.

7:47Katy Cowan:If I go to, you know, if I do go to any slides, I always wear, and I don't understand why the hell do we have to wear bikinis when men can just wear really long shorts. So do you know what I started doing a couple of years ago? I started wearing my swimming costume and putting on some of my husband's long shorts. Fabulous innovation. This is creative thinking. And I feel so comfy and they will not, even if they broke on a water slide, at least you'd still have something on underneath. That is so, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry that happened to you. That's awful. I thought it was quite funny. You've always got to laugh at yourself, I find.

8:22Katy Cowan:Very true. If your inner critic had a voice and a name, what would it sound like? I assumed everyone's was the same, which is just like Hugh Grant, like a couple of wine glasses in, but like an LLM version of Hugh Grant. And so he's like stammering, British, utterly devastating. That is my inner critic. I love that. Do you have an alter ego at the moment? Because I think I've got one called Menopause Meg. I really love that. I mean, do I have an alter ego? I do have sort of like performative Ashley, which is like journalist Ashley. So when I have to deliver a presentation or something like that, I sort of fully dissociate and allow myself to be in that performance mode because, yeah, to be as persuasive as possible, I sort of have to hide the bits of the most anxious parts of myself in order to get through it.

9:19Katy Cowan:I just had to hide the madness because, you know, the humor. Do you know, I had a menopause Meg moment at Euston Station and I'm ashamed that I'm going to even share this because it is not me. It's not the way I roll. It's Meg. It's not you, it's Meg. It's Meg. Oh my God, am I going to tell this story? So I went up to the first class lounge because I'd got myself a premium standard ticket on the avanti west coast and i went up to the desk and scanned my ticket in and the very curt lady behind the desk just looked at me with that satisfied smirk on her face and said oh i'm afraid your ticket doesn't give you access to first class and i went bumbled and lost all confidence and went oh oh i thought it did it used to oh oh never mind okay all right thank you and off I walked and she was just like like that at me so mystic Meg mystic Meg menopause Meg came from nowhere and I just went it's not very nice in there anyway and off I saw it what the hell well done I love it gotta get in no that was rude next time I'm go there I'm gonna walk in and say I you know it'll be like the the pretty woman moment I came in here last week I was really rude to you I'm sorry no the pretty woman moment she goes big mistake you I know she does but I'm reframing it to get it more modern um but my friends were just I told all my friends they were just howling did they not know who you were Katie they were saying shut up shut up it wasn't my finest moment what emoji do you overuse well you just talked about menopause so I think most perimenopausal late ADHD deriatric millennial firstborn daughters will have the same one which is the melty face all day every day that one that one I love that mine are the eyes obviously but yeah I have started using that quite a lot I also use drool a lot my my sister-in-law now and again will send me pictures of David Gandhi and I'll just go drool drool he's like getting out of a swimming pool slow motion I feel god I feel like I'm objectifying men here but David Gandy.

11:29So lovely.

11:30Katy Cowan:Yeah, that's true. It works for everything. The emojis are so powerful, aren't they? It does. I mean, I'm a writer and I used to be really snobby about emoji in early days. I mean, I would always put a period at the end of my texts. And that is today considered affronting, like very rude. But yeah, now love an emoji. I love how language and symbols and And words can change meaning. And yeah, and the sort of devices and the methods to which we spread that message can change the way things are determined as well. It's very interesting, isn't it? You're so right. Actually, I know it took me a long time to become a copywriter, but I remember so vividly having to do this exercise in like year four or something like that in the British school in Dubai.

12:19And we were asked to paint where we wanted to be when we grew up. and I painted, ashamedly to say, a bride. This was long before I knew who -

12:29Katy Cowan:Well, I think we all did that. But I was called into the head's office. My mom was there, the art teacher was there because bride isn't a job. And I mean, you know, like the productivity method, the question was what you wanted to be when you grew up, not what job you wanted to have. But, you know, as they said, your bride is not a job. It's something you do for a day and you're not paid. But I am a writer, not an artist. And I didn't want to do the task again, but I also didn't want to fail. And so I just scribbled out the bit that said bride. And I wrote wedding dress model and I passed. So yeah, the power of copywriting.

13:06The image stayed the same. The words changed the meaning.

13:08Katy Cowan:I know you're a very busy lady, but can I show you my first ever story? Oh my God. Yes, please. I'd love it. Okay, hang on. I just have to get it from behind me. I think it's here. It's in my little treasure box.

13:22Katy Cowan:yes my mum keeps these things she said do you want to keep your first story i was like lovely uh yeah that would be amazing so there's a little image and this is what's um inspired me so look at this this is the this is the little image yeah and the story is and look at my little writing oh it's so cute that's adorable i love this once upon a time there lived a little girl called Cinderella. She lived with her ugly sisters and had to do all the housework. She cried because she wanted to go to the ball to see the prince. They went outside to sing and when the clock bell rang 12 times, Cinderella ran away and lost her golden shoe.

14:04Katy Cowan:The prince found her and they lived happily ever after. So obviously I'm inspired by something else. But isn't that lovely? Just the simplicity that that's what you think life's going to be like. You're going to find your perfect man and everything's going to be okay. Yeah. Oh, I love that. I'm so glad you kept it as well. And that's really inspiring. Oh, I'm very sentimental. We have big treasure boxes in the attic. Now, you're an adopted Brit. Tea or coffee? And how do you take it? Tea intravenously. Yeah. And is it a builder's brew or a bit of sugar? Depends how the sleep was the night before, but always milk, sometimes sugar.

14:47Katy Cowan:amazing right before we let you go we have one more question and it's from our former guest who is the brilliant founder of sweet thang it's a zine that she does she's she's amazing you should absolutely have a chat with her she's brilliant she asked the question if zoe thompson she asked the question if there was one piece of brand copy out there that you could change what would it be oh my god zoe mean mischief okay okay there's just one piece of brand copy that i would change oh oh no i can't say it out loud i really can't say it out loud because can i tell you something when there's stuff that i don't like in the world it doesn't mean that it's bad no and it also you just don't know how the thing arrived on that bus side do you know what I mean yes what the the the process was with the client you know if there's no creative bravery amongst that client you don't have to say it okay because yeah you don't I don't want you to have anxiety after this you know the what's it called the the beer fear yes yeah but can I tell you something that I really don't like is what I think can sometimes happen that we're sort of arriving at this kind of like homogenous bro-y performative language sometimes through our brand copy and I can't write like I'm not that that's why it's so important to have really diverse teams because it ends up sounding really inauthentic when you're trying to you know whatever sound down with the kids like hello fellow kids um i don't like that at all i'm trying to iron out the uh word guys i say guys too much i'm trying to say everyone or folks folks folks is a good one brilliant yeah folks is good yeah trying to get away from that language which is instilled in us and i may have an old generation so please do not judge me it's years and years of trauma and pain and suffering and learning takes time and we have to be gracious with ourselves and others.

16:56Katy Cowan:We do, we do. We've got to give everyone a chance. Now, what is your question for our next guest? Okay, there were a few that were cycling through, but I think the one I'm most interested to hear the answer of everyone I meet in this industry and elsewhere is what's the most beautiful thing you've made that nobody will ever see? Oh, that's lovely. What a wonderful way to end another episode of Spark. Thank you, Ashley, for joining us. You've been amazing. My pleasure. Thanks, Katie.