The Spark: Brian Collins on Poetry, Playfulness and the Perfect Cookie

0:04Katy Cowan:Hi, I'm back with the wonderful, the unstoppable Brian Collins of Collins. If you caught our lovely chat on Monday, you'll know that we talked about courage, about questions, about curiosity, about living a life that, well, you don't know where you're going next. And that's a wonderful thing. Thank you for joining us again, Brian, for the spark. happy to be here kid yeah but you're saying that but you don't know what's coming you know i'm going to put you on the spot a lot no but isn't that interesting i always like conversations where you aren't quite sure what's going to happen and you over help you overhear yourself saying things that you didn't know you knew yeah that's that's interesting otherwise that's always a pleasure yeah when you think oh god i'm actually not that yeah that's a conversation yeah i've got experience no otherwise it's just a press conference oh yeah yeah well i used to do those for a living back in the day you did microphone oh yeah i was a radio journalist before i got into all of this so so you had to talk to executives i had to talk to all sorts of people police officers firefighters yeah and they're and they're trained their media trained not to say anything yes they are but you're not so we're gonna have fun yeah but i but i'm i'm ready to go okay ready to go i'm all i'm all yours we're gonna start off quite with a really interesting one actually it's a question um what's a piece of creative advice you always ignore but it works for you early in my career i saw a designer present uh some work like here's how you present you do the closest in and you do the and then you do the farthest out and you do in between so you three design ideas do the closest in and then do the second closest in and then you do the third out like you're goldilocks the dumbest thing i've ever heard dumb it's like we're like you're you're presenting to a business usually business people or marketing people they studied supply chain they studied engineering they studied finance or they studied business or or economics they did not study semiotics they didn't study design and art history and the philosophy and like design philosophy.

2:17They didn't study like any, they didn't understand the difference between the signifier and the signified. Like they didn't study any of that. And so we bring that stupid design language into a conversation. We expect people to get it. And so when people, well, here's what you present. You're the one that's closest to where they are and you present the one that's furthest out. And you go, why do you present that way? They'll always end it up like Goldilocks, the bed that's not too hard or the bed that's not too soft or the porridge that's not too cold or the porridge that's not too hot. Why would you do that?

2:51So then what ends up happening is the work always lands in the middle. We don't present that way. I ignored it. I thought it was ridiculous. We should stop presenting that way. And you present against, these are the three values that you want to present in your life. One is about being connected. One about speed. And the other one might be about generosity. You present against the values that you try to establish in the earlier conversation. Every company has a series of values that they're trying to put into the world around a conversation they want to have. You say, this will help you leverage that conversation.

3:21This will help you focus on this conversation. And that's the conversation. You're constantly presenting people different potential futures. You're rehearsing the future with them. Which is the most comfortable for you? Who cares? Which future do you want to build? Do you want to build that future? Do you want to build this future? Or do you want to build? So we become like exotic menials. Like, well, that makes me uncomfortable. Like, you shouldn't even be having that conversation. The conversation, if you said, do you believe in this future or do you believe in that one? Which one manifests the future that you want to create?

3:50Katy Cowan:Have a spine. Stand up. Yeah. Yeah. So that's where I am. It's the dumbest thing I've seen designers do. And I was told, here's how you present your work. That's dumb. So I've ignored it and it's made a big difference. You put on the orange tie. You put on, yeah, well, in this. Or the orange hat in this case. Yeah, my aunt gave me this. Yeah, this color. What is a medium or a discipline, Brian, you secretly wish you were really good at? Postmodern dance. No.

4:28Voguing.

4:29Katy Cowan:I'd love to know how to vogue. Yeah, you should do that. But sometime you can come and visit New York and we'll do it. We'll do it. What secret discipline would be good? I wish I could remember all the poems that I love. I have a visual memory. I, I, there's so many poems that I love. Um, there are only a handful that I've remembered. Um, but I love poetry. It's, um, it's changed. It answers questions that I don't necessarily know how to ask. Um, so I wish I could remember more of the poems that I like, but instead of what I do is I walk around with, I walk around with poetry books. It's hard though.

5:06It can be. One of my most favorite ones, uh, is from Leonard Cohen. It's actually a lyric from his that got me through a really tough winter, which was, I wasn't quite sure where I was. I was 33 and having a rough point in my life. And I read this quote. I didn't hear the song until many years later, but I heard this line from Leonard Cohen, which is, it got me through a tough winter. And the line was, a series of lines, because I thought I was aiming for perfection in design. I thought everything had to be perfect. I thought I had to be perfect. I thought design had to, like everything was, design was so oriented around precision.

5:39and the middle of that expectation I placed on myself and I thought the expectation that my profession had placed on me, I found this quote and it was, ring the bells that still can ring. Forget your perfect offering. There's a crack, a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in.

6:03Katy Cowan:That is beautiful. Forget your perfect offering. There's a crack, a crack in everything. that's how the light gets in oh gosh that's really emotion that's like sparking an emotion that's leonard cohen oh now he's going to sing it the way leonard cohen does but it gives voice to something that you can't quite grasp and suddenly an accomplished songwriter in that lyric told me you're kind of busted you're kind of broken you're kind of not right i'm like good so ring the bells the silicon ring forget your perfect offering there's a crack a crack and everything well the way you tell it that's how the light gets in the way you tell it you sparked some tears at the back of my eyeballs then i know that you're from an irish um family that's an impact but that's what poetry does it should wake you up it does yeah and so and so that's why i wish i i wish i could i could remember more of that yeah it's so true um what's a hill you die on when it comes to creative work brian uh something or the hill i would die on um is someone on my team who has a great idea and i believe in them and they believe in it they put their heart and soul into it and i see it and i will die to get that i'll die to get that idea produced for them that's that's wonderful are you are you a lovely boss no i'm not a lovely boss at So, no, I'm impossible.

7:30I mean, I'm absolutely impossible. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think my staff and the people who are here know that if there's an idea that they really believe in and I think, and if that's the idea, I will die. And a lot of our work that we've done is actually, these aren't my ideas. These are ideas that other members of my team have had. And I'm like, I know how, let's, that's what we're going to do. Now, our job is to get them to see that that future is the right one for them. Whether it's, you know, I remember battling for this in our work with Dropbox or most recently in our stuff that we just launched with Muse.

8:06Yeah. Which was, you know, our thinking was informed by supremacism, you know? And so, and pure emotion and pure vitality. And it was quite a thing. And so that's what our point of inspiration was. But the designers on my team, some of them who came from Russia, who knew that work intimately, you could feel it. And so I think when a young designer on my team or any member of my team has an idea, they go, I love this. You can see it in the work. And the objective is to protect that so that energy comes through when you see it on the other side. And you can sense it. You can sense it. Someone cared about this thing instead of just checking off all the boxes.

8:51That's what we fight for. We fight for when it comes out the other end, they go, someone really cared about this. And it's meaningful to me.

8:59Katy Cowan:I love that. Now, I also love the fact that your team helped you pick out some of these questions, which I totally love you. I don't know. You gave me this giant list. They go, here's the question. All right, choose some of them. And tell me, no, we're all busy. So are you. Oh, yeah. I'm totally busy. I managed to order my collagen today, though, Brian. I'm proud of myself. That's been on my job list for a long time. I ordered my collagen. You did? Oh, well, I did. You know, I had plastic surgery not long ago, but I woke up and I found out that they put it all. They were supposed to put it in like, you know, build up this.

9:34But instead, they put it all here instead. They put it in the wrong place. So I was like, what have you done?

9:41Katy Cowan:I'm just trying to get rid of my perimenopause spots, love.

9:48Katy Cowan:they're just giving me extra chins bless you you look good to me you look good thank you darling you do not look over 50 i would say thank you thank you tell me all your secrets so um what is a guilty pleasure you defend to the death oreos what is it about oreos it's the design equivalent of a really great sirloin steak Like crispy and hard and crispy, crispy and crunchy on the outside and then really soft on the inside. It's steak in a cookie. Is it like you? Crunchy on the outside, soft on the inside? No, I'm soft on the outside and a monster on the inside. I'm the opposite. I seem soft, but I'm really a terror.

10:34Katy Cowan:I wasn't expecting this, honesty. I know this is the first time we've met, but I love it. Oreos are the best. I have a whole room for Oreos. It's just when you like... We keep Oreos stacked in the kitchen. I love that. They're great. Oreos, the perfect cookie. Now you do a lot of traveling. What's the most impulsive thing you've ever done whilst globetrotting? I cannot keep myself out of bookstores. I can't. So people will not travel with me or they go, if you're going to walk around the city, you only get to spend 15 minutes in that bookstore and they will walk. they'll go if you're not at that bookstore in 15 minutes i'm leaving you so my family will not travel with me because if i'm anywhere near bookstore so when i land in the city i'll go i can smell books there are books here i love books um i i use them i read them and give them to friends i've had events here when people are at crossroads um uh they're lost uh um i've had like parties and i've had people over and say what's a crossroad in your life i'm gonna i'll have them read a biography i'll have them read edmundst vincent malay i'll have them read james hillman i'll um i'll have them read rebecca solnit um so but books are are are transfiguring for me so i cannot get good to a city and not uh you're like and i hit a bookstore you're like the elton john of the literary world what do you mean as in you know you started reading from a very early age and then it's just your whole life whereas elton started playing the piano from a very early age and that was his books are books are absolutely amazing so i can't yeah i can't go to a city that i think there's bookstores i love that is there a good bookstore you can recommend in brooklyn A bunch of them.

12:22Why? Are you visiting?

12:24Katy Cowan:I might do. Yes, I'll send you a list. Okay, good. Send it after this. Who would play you in the movie of your life and who should play you? That's a weird question. Well, I would like Matt Bomer, but that's not going to happen. Probably, probably, Divine, you know. It's up to you. who oh god a puppet you know kermit the frog kermit the frog i don't have kermit play me i i'd be miss piggy we'd be friends i actually know that's weird we'd be in a relationship that'd be really weird sorry this is what i do brian i just go down roads that i shouldn't venture that's okay movies are really interesting um someone uh years ago there's a column and said they would choose i can't jeremy i can't remember jeffrey someone who used to be in some tv show they cast me um as which is weird but um no probably um uh probably what what what who should act me i um a puppet you know a train a pulled toy a glass of water no a plate no no no who should play me a movie a plate of oreo cookies oh for god's sake back to the oreos no it was like yes yes a plate of oreo cookies starring as brian collins yes that's what i would do very left field i love it um this is this is where i'm slightly concerned about asking the next question if your creativity were a mythical creature what would it be a griffin a griffin okay straightforward ties in nicely with the philosophies that you stand by well griffins are interesting because they're because they're creatures of the ground and the air right and they're fierce it's opposed to a lion and an eagle so it's grounded and it's a king and it's and it knows how to navigate both yeah so if you only live on the ground you'll never have perspective you'll only be in the weeds but if you have wings you can like like is this where i really want to be so i love griffins because they're both grounded and asper and you know and had perspective yes and very regal quite intimidating but very regal yeah they were dangerous and there were also a lot of um medieval heraldry because they were people thought they existed i'm 47 this month i'm a leo the lion oh really yeah wow congratulations i know thank you i've made it yeah you look fab yeah yeah it's all it by the way it gets it gets oddly better i know it already is and it's the collagen darling again just remember it moisturized up oh yes i do always up and lots of water up yes do all these things and lots of and that's sort of what are they the lovely sort of eye patches that you take out the freezer in the morning yep yep whilst you're having your coffee what's the oddest compliment you've ever received we just finished redesigning one of the largest companies in the earth and the ceo had invited me to the to their uh to their launch of the new york stock exchange big deal in in the center of the new york stock exchange the floor and they invited me to go when they rang the bell and we rang the bell it was a big deal and the ceo comes up to me afterwards he goes we did this really proud of the work do you know why i hired you why because someone told me you're really difficult to work with i'm like what i don't want to be difficult to work with he goes the reason why we hired you is because you would probably push us yeah so so it was in other words you said you can be can be tricky and we and we we continue to work with him but he's bloody asking questions that's why i'm asking difficult questions and he said i can be a pain in the ass but he said well that's why we work with you you challenge us you push us you push us and so he said i hired you because someone told me you can be difficult well i would rather be challenging and rather be provocative and rather push than rather just be completely obsequious so um yeah what if you remember don't we well i think we want to be effective you know um and i think we want to be helpful yes yeah so the last thing i would say would be um when i was in my 30s i went through that hard point, I decided that I would not, you can't control whether you're happy.

16:59There's no way. You can't search for it. It's ridiculous. It's fleeting. It comes and goes. You can't control it. But what I could control is I gave up the desire to be happy for the desire to be helpful and be useful. I can be useful to somebody during the course of the day. I can't always be happy. So, and in changing the orientation for being helpful instead of happy, changes everything you can you can be helpful for anybody on the street your brother your sister a friend your partner your wife your husband a member of your team a client you can always find a way to be helpful you can't always find ways to be happy so i got rid of the desire i no longer chase

17:37Katy Cowan:happiness i chase how can i be helpful and the irony of that is that you get happy moments from being helpful you do but you can't chase them okay brian you're obviously a fascinating person to sit down with at a dinner table. I can imagine I wouldn't get a word in, edging, edgways, as they say. Sorry, I'm a cheeky bugger when I want to be. No, it's been great. I've really enjoyed this chat. But who's your dream dinner guest, dead or alive? Me.

18:08Katy Cowan:So we'll set a mirror up.

18:13Oh gosh, don't die. I always like what Oscar Wilde said. Whenever I travel, I always bring my diary because I always need something spectacular to read. Who would be my great dinner guest? I would love to have had dinner with the poet Pablo Neruda. Yeah, he's one of my favorite poets. That would have been remarkable.

18:39Katy Cowan:What emoji do you overuse, Brian? Orange heart. What is it with the color orange? Orange is yellow that wants to be red. Or maybe it's red that wants to be orange. But orange, well, in addition to that, my aunt gave me this color. It's a color transformation. Orange is always a color between two other colors. My favorite colors are orange, purple, and green. Sarah, right? Purple is red that wants to be blue. Green is blue that wants to be yellow. Right? orange is yellow it wants to be red so they're all chasing each other it's true oh we should wear my purple t-shirt now no it's the color transfer it's the color of transformation it's color it's in between the things yeah i'm always fascinated by the things that are in between the things instead of the things well you know i'm you know why i'm wearing this bright red t-shirt don't you i've bought a ton of colorful t-shirts that suit me because i realized in all my podcasts brian i was just wearing either black or white which is very boring really this red looks good thank you yeah i'm going through a color phase yeah it's fabulous yeah well this is black but i always have this you always have the orange hat okay we're going to finish off well we're not quite there yet but if you could use only one font for the rest of your life what would it be basketball good choice now our previous guest was hallie forlithson um who asked the question and it's quite a kind of deep one and he came out with it quite fast quite quick he said how do you want to die it ties in a lot with what we've been talking about doesn't it well it does because you because none of us get out of this nope um and we and we want to like right up until the end like there's some hope that like we're gonna escape this but we don't no um how do i want to go I want to go saying, I squeezed the hell out of that.

20:36I did it. I did everything I wanted to do. And you keep on aiming. I think I want to keep on looking over the horizon. I always want to figure out. I want to go still looking over the horizon. I never want to stop. I will not retire. I don't understand artists never retire. I want to keep going, looking over, trying to figure out what's next. That's how I will go.

20:59Katy Cowan:That's beautifully put. Now you've got the opportunity to ask a question ready for our next guest. Do you have one ready? Ask the question that you might not want the answer to. Thank you so much, Brian. This has just been absolutely fabulous. You didn't disappoint. Oh, well, thank you. It's happy 16. It's quite a thing to keep, you know, I think the act of rebellion today is to keep on going because it's really easy to be the new style pony who shows up on the block. that the other things you just keep on going and you're in the game and you'll learn more things the funny thing is you keep on going and you learn more stuff and then you find more things about yourself and all your perspective changes so i'm uh i'm in my third act now and i'm planning on i'm going to keep on going until i can't and i and i couldn't be happier it's weird i'm happier about doing the work we're doing now than i've ever been yeah i i would totally agree 16 years feels like nothing to me and I'm I'm gonna keep going and going and going and to me it's not a job or anything like that it's a profession it's a passion it's a it's a purpose so why would I want to stop exactly okay I can't thank you enough for your time today it was great

22:09Katy Cowan:well that was a whirlwind wasn't it from mythical creatures to guilty pleasures and the kind of compliments that make you go sorry what now Brian Collins did not disappoint there was belly laughs, some genuinely touching moments and a fair bit of chat about Oreos. Again, honestly, what a man, a griffin in human form. Massive thanks to Brian for being such a brilliant sport and for reminding us that being curious, mischievous and unapologetically yourself is always the best way to go. If you haven't already, go and listen to the full episode from earlier this week. Trust me, it's a proper treat and we'll be back next week with another guest on the Creative Bean podcast, another big chat and yes, probably more biscuits.