The Spark: Claire Blyth on Madonna, Magpies and the Hacienda

0:04Katy Cowan:We're back with the excellent, gorgeous, obviously youthful and amazing Claire Blyth from Red Setter. Good description. Absolutely. It's deserved. Claire and I have had many a fun time together. She's put up with me in various events. Lots of fun. We found a friendship through shared pain and wisdom and dance music, weirdly. Dance music, clubbing. Clubbing days. Did you see I went to that pursuit of repetitive beats in Leeds? Oh, isn't that so cool? I saw it in Brighton last year. It's incredible. And you do feel like you're on the M62 looking for a rave. Like, it's so, it's really, really cool.

0:49It's like an AI thing, if anyone's not heard of it. An AI thing where? AI thing?

0:54Katy Cowan:VR thing. It's a VR thing, isn't it? Yeah, we're showing our age. Where you feel like, I know, you sort of go into this scene where you're looking for a rave and then you end up at the rave. Yes. And it's all Darren Emerson from Underworld that's kind of headed the whole thing up. No, it's not him. Is it not? No, it's a completely different person. But it's really funny, right? Because everybody makes that mistake. I made that mistake because I went to it. Is it a different Darren Emerson? It's a different Darren Emerson. What? And Darren Emerson, the artist, the VR artist who's on LinkedIn, I wrote about my experience of going to this press preview.

1:32Katy Cowan:And he sent me an amazing message on LinkedIn. It was just like, I can't remember what he said, but it really made me like, you know, my bottom lip wobble. And it was something like everything you wrote was just what I was trying to exactly achieve. Brilliant. Because for me, I went on there and I thought, oh, this is going to be fun. It'll be really nostalgic. and the minute orbitals chime set in I just burst into tears I was absolutely I was streaming absolutely crying my heart out oh my god I love that in the nice sort of possible way it's like it was so evocative wasn't it it was so sort of it's it's so weird because like I don't know I don't know whether you feel this way Claire but I feel like maybe you don't maybe it's just me maybe it's a generational thing I don't know but in journalism we're always taught that it's not about us it's about the other person so we spend a lot of our career in my case 25 years it's not about us and then you kind of yeah you can't help but lose yourself a little bit along the way yes I'm not I'm not saying I'm not saying that you've gone through this but this is my personal thing Alex my husband says that he's he's a so we run Red Setter together and he's a business journalist and his background's all in business journalism so sort of more similar kind of career to your path really you have to meet him at some point I'd love to yeah he was saying the same thing that it's kind of it's a bit weird having a whole career where you're ghost writing for people and you kind of almost take up that sort of role of showcasing other people the entire time even though your writing's fantastic and you're doing really good stuff you're not quite recognized for it yeah and you're busy as well and you you guys will know how much it takes to sort of build a business it can really overwhelm and overtake the life and yeah I think you get to a stage maybe it's a midlife crisis in my case where you think who am I you know do I have lived experience is does my voice count which is why you see me come out more on socials and just being myself screw it when we're only here yeah once right so might as well have fun absolutely so that I think yeah I've been going through a little moment I've been going through a little moment recently Claire and uh I think it all you know when I was on that motorway in the car and Orbital's chime was playing I just I just suddenly thought shit my youth where's all the time gone yeah wow bloody hell yeah it's changed a lot and all the people all the people are not here anymore who took clubbing a bit too far and yeah yeah absolutely yeah lovely tay okay we are here not to talk about me this is where we at the spark get to know you a little bit better with a load of lovely questions i you know for listeners um information we always send a bunch of questions before this interview so they the our guests can basically choose them so i always find it quite interesting what you choose what's a medium or discipline you secretly wish you were good at design I think one of the reasons there are many many yeah there are many reasons that I set up Red Setter and one is the main reason is the voice of design being lost and people not quite seeing the value a lot of people don't even know it's a thing not that kind of stuff like graphic design people don't see as important in life and it's super important yeah but if I could I think the reason that I did it in the first place was also because I really wish I was an amazing designer so I thought this is kind of like getting through the sort of back door of getting into an industry that I absolutely love and want to tell the stories of but I'd love if I could have like yeah a separate trail of sliding doors style life I'd love to be an amazing designer.

5:23Katy Cowan:Yeah I know what you mean people always say why did you start Creative Boom you're not like you're not an artist or a designer well what difference does that make I love I love art and design and exactly I could be one day yeah i could i could start a gallery or you know something oh you know what i was speaking to um christoph i can't remember his surname he's a lovely guy and he's the vice chancellor of the royal college of art i'm going to do a podcast with him coming up in the next series he's super lovely and he was saying to me that they've got a six month diploma so you don't have to do a degree at the royal college of art six month diploma and they have just had an 84 year old woman sign up for it and she's doing jewellery making and he said she's amazing it's the oldest student they've ever had but they're really encouraging that and i was like oh my god so that means you're going to become an amazing designer maybe maybe at some point i could be the rca it's never too late you know this is what this is what i told myself you know i there was actually a voice in my head before i started putting myself out there claire i thought you're too old for this katie what are you what are you thinking you're too old you need to just disappear now I mean obviously I'm saying yes I'm not saying yes yes get back in your box I know what you mean I know what you mean completely just get rid of that do it anyway there isn't a point in your life where you have to start winding it all down that's insane well interesting I don't know if you get this but I had quite a few private messages from other women a similar age to us and um they were like oh it's so brave so brave I love what you're doing I love it keep doing it and I'm like why does it need to be brave it doesn't need to be brave yeah it's true just get out there and do it and put yourself out there and I say go out there and do it you don't have to you don't have to and if it would been god five six years ago where are we now 2025 I had hypnotism in 2019 for public fear of public speaking that was really really bad like I just couldn't do it and every time I got in front of an audience I could just about like do in Red Setter when there's like 20 or so of us but if I go in front of an audience of people I didn't know no matter how big it was I just couldn't do it so I couldn't have done the podcast I couldn't have done this I couldn't have done any of that because I'd just be so worried it was like a phobic reaction like it would just overcome me as soon as I started talking and I had hypnotism in 2019 just pre-lockdown and it just changed everything it's just got rid of all that giving a shit bit but not all of it 80 % of it from my head.

7:54Katy Cowan:That's incredible I might do that as well. Yeah, it's game changing. You don't need it. Well, to be honest, I think my equivalent was my back injury last year. I think spending a year on the floor and having pain and not being able to sleep, that doesn't give you a jolt up the backside. Oh my God, yeah. Yeah. Definitely, yeah. I don't know how you went through that and managed to still do Creative Boom and still, most people don't know. I don't know how I did it either. But I'm proud of myself because I think that's the thing. when you go through a tough time you really do you find out what you're made of my goodness totally just a stubborn bugger that won't give up when did you last feel completely out of your depth and what happened next oh god i think that'll probably go back to the public speaking thing again that was definitely but you're so good at it oh god i don't think i'm so good at it but i think i'm like i'm getting better and i feel happier doing it and it now doesn't totally freak me out.

8:54Like I love doing live podcast recordings and I love talking friends of an audience. And as long as I know what I'm talking about and I feel like a level of confidence that I just didn't have before. But I did a course in public speaking in 2019, which is what tipped me over the edge. And the guy that was running it said to me afterwards, I don't think you've got a problem with public speaking. I think you've got a problem with liking yourself. You need to go on a course of how to like yourself. And it really upset me. Like I was in tears for ages after it. yeah I was just like I think I do like myself I don't understand maybe I'm denying it I think I do like myself but I just I just get a phobic reaction whenever I start speaking I can't I

9:34Katy Cowan:can't speak properly but the thing is people people like assume that you have to be a certain way I think you've got a gentle soft way about you that's very appealing very endearing and very engaging and I when I saw you at D &AD festival I don't know if you spotted me in the crowd but I I was like literally in the crowd going, like a little fangirl. That's brilliant. I didn't spot you in the crowd. I saw you afterwards. I did. I was like, oh, my God. Okay. As soon as I saw you, I was like, oh, yes. I found my little seat, put my little headphones on. Because I just think you're amazing. Yeah, I would never have guessed.

10:08Katy Cowan:I would never have guessed. But, yeah, I really enjoy it now. And it used to be the things that I felt so out of my depth in and used to absolutely terrify me. but at that point I kind of realized how you can rewire your brain I just used to think that if you thought a certain way or you're afflicted by some sort of fear or something like that you just had to either try and get over it or I didn't realize there was a way you could actually just rewire your brain and think of things differently and now I kind of think if I don't like doing something or I don't want to do something um I've kind of got a thing at the moment about just trying to introduce some stillness into my life and try to just sit there and read for an hour or two and sit there and just be really focused and calm but and I think if I keep practicing that then I'll be able to do that as well I feel like you can just rewire the way you think you absolutely can I also had somebody gave who gave me some great advice they said whenever you're about to do a podcast or a talk or something that you might be a little bit anxious about a bit nervous about which is normal, it's human.

11:10Katy Cowan:You just remember you're not there. People are not there to watch or listen to you because of you. You're there to serve them and give them something of value. And I thought that was so lovely because it just completely reframed things. And I thought, well, okay, so I'm not just dancing about on a stage. Actually, I'm here to do something of value. Yeah, absolutely. And it was lovely. I think we always have voices either in our head that come from a place we cannot decipher. It might be something from childhood. It might be from a bully. There are voices, more recent voices. I remember I went and interviewed an artist and he said to me something like, yeah, you're all right, but you lack.

11:55Katy Cowan:What did he say? You have very low self-esteem. And it really like hit me. It really hurt me and affected me for a while, actually. And I'm annoyed with myself that it did. But then I got talking to other women in the industry and he's done it to about four or five other people. Wow, that's interesting. So when you then. What a dickhead. Yeah. So when you reframe and you realise actually what people say to you that might be hurtful is probably more about them than you. Then that completely destroys the power that sentence has ever had on you. That's really good advice. Where does he live? I'm going to go and have a word.

12:36Yeah, I'll go around and have a word. But it's just, it's not true. I think it's, yeah, it's really easy to say things like that. And then you can believe it and get sort of sucked into the whole thing. But as soon as I had hypnotism, that actually showed me it was from an experience I had at junior school with a teacher losing the temper at me and going nuts about the fact that I couldn't remember some words in an assembly. And it kind of, it all kind of went back to like, so me as an eight-year-old or something. and now I've kind of reprocessed that in my head it's all fine and generally I do like myself it's

13:06Katy Cowan:all right you're amazing um I I would have said to that teacher gosh that's a very unprofessional thing to say have you ever thought about maybe retraining as a teacher see this is what I think now I think of all the things that people have said to me where I wish I could have said something at the time yeah have you had a more mature head on you and go back and reframe it definitely But Claire, how powerful is it? Because I'm like literally rubbing my hands now in glee. I'm thinking, bring it on, bitches. Bring it on. Because whatever you say to me, it's not going to have any power over me and I will speak up.

13:42Yeah, absolutely. I feel like voguing.

13:48Honestly, we've had enough shit for so many years.

13:50Katy Cowan:I'm not dealing with it anymore. If anyone says anything shitty like that to me or you again, I will speak up. yeah and it won't take three pints of Stella to get there maybe

14:04Katy Cowan:what is a small ritual or habit that makes your day better oh I was thinking about this I'm saying I'm gonna sound like a right dick for saying this but I'm just gonna say it anyway because I don't really care it's a meditation that's not that doesn't make you a dick but sort of meditation and micro meditation I know it doesn't make you dick but you know it's just like I think it's oh I do meditation Brighton and everyone is just like I mean there's loads of my mates and me as well I was like well I do yoga I do meditation I'm a yummy mummy yeah exactly I don't really feel like that person but I started doing meditation a few years ago and it's just changed everything generally I've just got all sorts of shit going off in my head all the time and although I started trying to do it like 20 minutes two times a day which has never happened.

14:53I think I've done it 20 minutes once a day, quite a few times. But now what I do, I do car meditation. So I drop my daughter off at school and then I've got like a half an hour period where I need to get to work and it only takes like 15 minutes. So I'll generally pull over at the side of the road. So if anyone sees me in Brighton looking like I'm asleep in a car

15:12Katy Cowan:with my sunglasses on, so hopefully no one will look. Oh, that's hilarious. And just do 15 minutes of just breathing and meditation and it just makes such a difference. But even micro meditation, if I can feel there's too much going on in my head, just going to one of the Zoom pods in the office or going to a room on my own and just having two minutes of just focus on my breath, just thoughts my head out. It's so nice. We forget to breathe, don't we? And it's just so good for you to have a deep breath in and a deep breath out. Yeah, massively changes the way you feel. It really does. And then you realise how stressed you are.

15:47Katy Cowan:Oh my God, I'm carrying so much tension up here. Totally. All I'm doing is running an art and design platform. What's going on? Have you read James Nestor's book, Breath? I've got it on my shelf. I haven't got around to it. Come on, you know me. Don't worry, I've got a pile like that next to my bed. But I listened to this as an audio book because I thought I'm never going to get around to actually reading it. But it's just, it's amazing. And it's kind of one of those things. I was talking to a friend about it and he was saying, why are you learning how to breathe? that's ridiculous like surely but this this one royal academy science book of the year so it's not like some ridiculous theory that one person's got it's really really important stuff i think tom's right i think he did i think he was really moved by it as well and went through a phase where he was doing meditation he's forgotten it now i do that all the time just go up and down with the whole thing i'm actually making a list i'm gonna put i've got i use an app called things on the mac and i'm gonna start putting my daily tasks in because it'll be the only way that i do them because i'm very much a person so what the first thing is to do my 10 minute routine which keeps my back happy my second one is to go for my half an hour morning walk my third one in the evening yeah do it do it without a phone that's what i wanted that's what i keep the idea of stillness go for a walk without a phone which terrifies me slightly would i be able to do that because normally I listen to a podcast that's what so this is what I'm trying to get to with the idea of sort of stillness in my mind right of just going for a walk with my sort of high-tech digital casio watch so I know at least what time it is at least you know what steps you're doing yeah yeah completely and then I'm not taking a phone but it doesn't happen that often and listen to the birds we should and listen to the sea in your case exactly I meditate by ironing I'm a sad ironer ah I wish I could get some pleasure through that I hate it but I've got a few friends who'd swear by it I just I go into a flow state and I just I don't think about anything I'm just ironing and it's lovely fancy a weekend in Brighton I can do a whole retreat based on that in my house 100 % I'm there.

18:00Katy Cowan:I'm particularly good with shirts. Perfect. Now, I really love this question because I, too, I'm so like I can be transported back. Like I told you with In Pursuit of Repetitive Beats that being in the car, the music. What's a scent or smell that instantly takes you back to a memory? You know what? The only thing that came to mind and the overwhelming thing that came to mind that really makes me laugh is early teenage body shop white musk and Jubilee perfume. Oh, my God. As soon as I said that, I just had an overwhelming feeling of that and going out for the first time and discovering nights out and discovering going clubbing and stuff like that.

18:44Really smelling quite heavily of body shop white musk.

18:47Katy Cowan:Now, a lot of people... No, I think I had that as well. What was the red rectangular one? Was it Charlie Red? Oh, yeah, okay. Yeah, I had Lulu as well, which was like overpoweringly sickening. Smell it now and it makes me want to throw out. And CK1, we went through a phase. CK1, I still like CK1. It is a real, that was when we were growing up a bit and we were starting to get a bit posher with our scents. Yeah, a bit posher, less sickening on the scents. Do you feel like you're really out of touch with perfume? Because I'm in the market, I've had a Tom Ford Velvet Orchid scent for about two years because I barely use it.

19:24Katy Cowan:Tom Ford's pretty classic. Well, it was a Christmas present, but I've run out. I need a new one. Oh, I discovered it's quite expensive perfume. It feels like a bit of an indulgence, but I really like it. La Labo. Oh, yes. Everyone's talking about that. Yeah, the La Labo perfumes are just amazing. They're green matcha, green tea 23 or something like that. It's my favourite perfume now. It lasts for ages and it is a bit of an indulgence, but I do love it. Shall we try and get some free stuff? Right, go. You do the advert. This podcast is sponsored by La Labo. I don't care, I'm a whore. It's valuable to the audience.

20:03Everyone needs a La Labo perfume.

20:04Katy Cowan:Send me all the free stuff. Travel me around the world. I'll do it. I'm not one of these ones that denies that I like the perks of being a journalist. Yeah, wish those days still existed. Yeah, I think scent is a powerful thing. it's um i get this weird thing when i hear a drone of an overhead plane go over my nose goes fuzzy and my heart like swells and my stomach does a flip isn't that weird isn't that weird oh my god definitely it's uh when it's coming down i think it's such a powerful which is from the smell of the plane not that not the smell it's not a scent it's a sound yeah okay so the sense of it being there and then it can but it makes my nose go fuzzy and i just have this like overwhelming feeling of safety and homeliness it's really weird oh wow were you around that kind of thing when you're little i think so well we lived south like about 35 40 miles south manchester airport so you would hear the planes yeah okay they would drone it like that kind of like change in shift of altitude where it sort of drones and it goes overhead i think that's what i found really unnerving about the pandemic when everything just went quiet I was like oh I don't like this I need planes yeah definitely yeah that's you know I just thought the most ridiculous example of smells and the evocative sort of side of things it's gonna make me sound like a bit of a nutcase but um so we used to go on holiday to Spain and Mallorca a lot when I was little when I was like probably like six to 14 or something with my mum and dad and used to really love it and you go to Spain and Mallorca and Magaluf and places like that and it just can smell a bit of like sewerage and stuff like that, a bit on the pooey side of things.

21:49Katy Cowan:It can, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sometimes now, in the summer, we'll be walking through Brighton or London or something like that and someone's like, oh, what is that smell? And I'm like, God, it reminds me of holidays. You see, what the hell? It smells of open sewage. And I'm like, I know, but I don't know. It just makes me happy in some way. I'm not going to adopt it as a new La Labo scent. but no the smell of majorca oh i'm getting notes of uh last night's dinner absolutely oh i always like when i when i think of summer i think i get that is it tropicana sun cream oh the tropicana sun cream absolutely it's a coconut base kind of yeah definitely being a kid again and your mum shouting you over and saying before you go in the pool come here and then they slavvy you in the stuff.

22:38I do that with my kids now, so I think that's fair enough.

22:42Katy Cowan:I'm very grateful that I had a lovely, lovely parents. Well, they're still around. My mum was always a sun worshipper, so she always had sun cream. Oh, so am I. My dad used to wear like carrot oil. Oh God. Just constantly. That brown stuff. Yeah, the brown stuff. No, no SPF in it whatsoever. I stare at the sun all the time now. I just sit in the shade. I prefer it. I like being warm, but cool. Yeah, me too. And just reading my book in the shade, isn't, you know, a nice little glass of something cold. Perfect. Right, next question. I don't know why I said that in a German accent. Dear me, grew up with LLO.

23:26Katy Cowan:Right, what is... Hair flick, go on. Oh God. What is something you would love to believe in? No, I'm not. I'm alienating a lot of my audience here. We have some lovely German listeners. I do apologise. It's just a low, low and the take on it, isn't it? It's ridiculous. Apparently it's really popular in France. Is it? Apparently, yeah. Still? I don't know. But that was the last I heard. I found that quite surprising. Anyway, what's something you'd love to believe in, even if it's not real? Oh, God, that's more of a, I think that's more of a deeper one. That it's hard not to want to believe in life after death.

24:03Katy Cowan:Yeah. Yeah. Because I don't know if it's the scientist side of me, sort of say scientist side of me, I studied biology at university and haven't thought about it since. But I like to consider myself to have scientific roots. Yeah, biology, wow. So, yeah, I used to really like it. And then I think it's in a degree and it kind of pepped me off and realised it wasn't very me. But I love, that's what I love about design, that kind of mixture of science and art. Yes. Sort of through kind of, you know, the graphic design side of things and branding, how it sort of breaks through it. But things like life after death makes no real sense and doesn't have that kind of scientific backing, but maybe it will one day and I'd love to be able to believe it because it'd be bloody brilliant.

24:44Katy Cowan:Well, what do you think heaven's going to be like then if you end up there? I mean, let's be honest, you've got, you know, maybe a 26 % chance of making it to heaven. I'm not so sure about that. Jesus.

25:00i'd like to think of it as not in a heaven and hell style way because that would freak me out

25:04Katy Cowan:too much everybody gets a chance to try again yeah i don't know maybe if you were bad you get sent back down as a snail and then you have to work your way back up again yeah it could be a butterfly you could sort of reappear on earth you could be a ghost and just do people's head in with no idea but i like the idea that your consciousness lives on but i whether it's real surely not I love ghost stories I don't know if I believe in it I'd love to think there was life after death I'd like to think I'm like you I'm gonna keep an open mind yeah that's it it makes no possible sense until I listen to loads of stories that people have where I'm like oh my god shit maybe that is something maybe it is true Tom said he once had an out-of-body experience where he floated to the corner of the room and could look down and looked on his body and I was like where was this he was like oh it was at a house party back in the day I was like right okay we've all had that maybe yes yes and next question good grief let's move on actually very going back to your like fond memories of your first night out I need to tell our listeners because this is so cool about you for your 40th birthday you got a DJ in didn't you oh my god Graham Park came down to Brighton and DJed my it was so cool Graham Park Graham Park actually said yes and came down and DJed at my 40th which was mind-blowing so I used to sneak out age 16 to the Hacienda and go and see Graham Park and just didn't think there was a Cat in Hell's chance that he'd actually do it and my friend Nick his kids go to the same or went to the same school as his son he was like just give him a call so I looked on his website and got in touch and then he called one day I was like properly starstruck just going I don't know if I can actually speak to him oh my god and he's lovely really really him and his wife came down to Brighton for the weekend and they're both super lovely that is awesome it was a very good party let's let's make it happen again let's bring Carl Cox in as well and oh yeah I think Carl Cox definitely Carl Cox isn't doing anything it's something about universe in Ibiza but surely you'd do my 50th absolutely yeah 100 i mean he'd be fine he would love it he really would i mean he is somebody who really enjoys what he does i love watching him oh my god he's amazing he's so good he is he's so happy and so yeah i really like him a friend of mine mark vesey does photography and does like photographs like collections of stuff and he does collections of records and things like that and he recently did one he went over to melbourne to see carl and went to his went to his place and his massive music room and did a collection of his favorite music photographed it all it's so good oh my god i'm so jealous i'm he is my absolute favorite dj even better than jeff mills even better than jeff mills yeah proper tribal techno back in the day oh yes brilliant definitely i love that you mentioned dave beer on um yes back to basics so good but Yeah, so many.

28:05Yeah, I need to sort something to get out for my next big birthday.

28:08Katy Cowan:Have you seen my silly Leeds vlog yet on YouTube? No. So you get to see me interview Dave Beer. No way. Oh, my God. I was really starstruck and I panicked and I said, how old are you now, Dave? And he went 65. I went, bloody hell, you old bastard. But I was just trying to make him relax and get him into the... But it just, you know, I went. I imagine it worked. But the thing is, he laughed and he said, thanks for the compliment. I went, you're all right. You're looking all right, love. But that's what I do. I kind of, you know, you and I had all of these experiences. And I think it's made us really good talking with people.

28:48Katy Cowan:Maybe not always. I wonder if Dave was really offended. I hope not. But the banter that you learn and the kind of. Yeah, definitely. Let's not take this too seriously. Let's not take ourselves too seriously. you get a vibe for people and obviously there was a bit of a chat in the run-up to that but yeah you need to watch it because i want your feedback you get to see me do the in pursuit of repetitive beats experience and i'm oh it's just oh i need to have a look at it right i'm gonna look at this after um after we've spoken i'm gonna i'm gonna i'm gonna be doing more vlogs so if you've got any experiences or things that i can go to that would fit the style of what i'm doing what i want to do I want to go to cities and have a local creative show me around and then go and do something.

29:34Katy Cowan:Oh, that's a good idea. Yeah. Yeah, I like that. All right, let me have a think. All right, all right. All right, superstition-wise, what is something you secretly or not so secretly follow? Oh, magpies, the whole... Oh, one for sorrow. Yeah, one for sorrow, two for joy. It should always be in my head. It does my head in. I'll be in a circus series meeting with someone and see one outside. And sort of like go like that to salute a magpie, like really surreptitiously so they won't notice. I feel like I have to. Yes. And do you look and find, try and find a second one? Yeah. Always try and find a second one.

30:09Very rarely find a second one.

30:13Katy Cowan:Bastards. It's not on. Those birds. And I wouldn't mind it. I've not even had an experience where it does actually indicate the rest of my day. But I just, yeah, for some unknown reason, it stuck with me. Also, I wouldn't encourage walking under a ladder. Oh my God, no, never. Definitely not. I'd always avoid that. Oh, I can never remember if a black cat's lucky or not lucky. Is it not lucky? If it runs in front of you, it's unlucky. I don't know. I think it might be different here than in the States as well. I think it might be unlucky here and lucky in the States or the other way around. I'll say it's lucky from now on, because they're always running in front of me, those little bastards.