The Spark: Emily Penny on Kate Winslet, Fairies and Deputy Penny

0:04Katy Cowan:Right, so we're going to have some fun. Are you ready? Terrified. Well, you've picked these questions prior to our chat, so you've hopefully had a chance to think about what you're going to say. And I'm springing a question on you at the end. Okay. But interestingly, Claire Blythe asked, she was last week's guest. Ah, right. So you can kill her when you see her in person next. I will do just that. No, actually, it's perfect because you didn't know who it was going to be. So it's kind of a bit weird how it's transpired anyway. Oh, I'm intrigued. Yes, that's coming up. What's a medium or discipline you secretly wish you were very good at?

0:44Well, it's got to be graphic design. I love graphic design. I mean, I'm absolutely hopeless at it. I went to art school. So I learned, I've always been a creative person, but I never learned design, which is quite a frustrating place to be. But I think the plus side is that it's why I love working with designers so much because they do the, they make the magic happen.

1:17Katy Cowan:Oh, I love it so much. I was trying to, you'll laugh at me because I'm doing vlogging again and my designers on holiday and my other designers lost it just lost a pet cat so I'm like oh and I've got a deadline I need to do YouTube thumbnails oh my god have you ever have you ever looked into this this it's it's a mad mad new world so this is thumbnails for each of your pieces content yeah on on the YouTube channel and they have to grab attention and they have to match up with the with the title and they have to like reinforce what you're trying to say you know spark curiosity have a curiosity loop going, you know, ooh, I must click on this.

1:54Katy Cowan:I mean, I tried to design my own and I was just howling with laughter. I just failed miserably. It's the most incredible skill. It is. It is. And I will, as all of my design collaborators know, I will certainly have an opinion and I will pitch in with ideas. But at the end of the day, I only have admiration for their wonderful skill. Yeah, I absolutely do as well. Oh, gosh, this is a good one. Who would play you in the movie of your life? And who should play you? I have for many years felt that Kate Winslet will play me in the movie of my life She actually lives quite local to me so I'm hoping that I run into her at some point Apparently she has been spotted at local yoga classes so I may have to try and find her Absolutely, you'll have to get a new yoga outfit so you stand out Yeah, yeah You've got to have a niche ready.

2:55Katy Cowan:You've got to have a strapline ready. What are you going to say to her when you meet her? Well, I get very starstruck. Do you? Yeah. I mean, obviously when I met you, I was completely paralyzed. I'm not famous. No. You are, love. You are. But no, I go completely stupid and I just kind of grin like a startled bunny. All right. so here's what we're going to do we're both going to buy some yoga outfits I'm going to come down and camp at your house for however long it takes you're not going to get rid of me and then we're just going to start trying to stop no we shouldn't be encouraging this sort of behavior but I'm really good because I worked in radio at the very start of my career and so I met a lot of celebrities in my 20s so it doesn't phase me anymore you know one of the most famous people I interviewed was Will Smith.

3:50Katy Cowan:And so, but then saying that, I don't know if like, if I bumped into Jack Black or Catherine Zeta-Jones or Kathleen Turner, I would probably, yeah, I'd probably just start mumbling. I really would. I'd just be like, catching flies. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's, I'm not, I'm not good with celebs and I've yet to see her. Maybe she's moved away. I don't know. Maybe she's booked. Maybe she found out about you. maybe she's gone she's avoiding me yes i met evan dando recently from the lemon heads quite right yes of course he was outside sat scribbling on a you know outside the gig and i was with my old friend cara and i just went up to him and i said hi evan i'm coming to see a gig in a minute he put his massive big hand out and the first thing i could think to say was wow you've got big hands mine are big too twinsies or something like that anyway break a leg have fun at the gig we'll leave you alone in the meantime Cara stood behind me just going you know she just and I was like come on Cara shake his hand he's not gonna bite and I just ran off giggling she went I can't believe you did that yeah no it's it's a funny one definitely just coming out of a nasty injury my leg was still on fire it was like last October I barely made it.

5:10Katy Cowan:I was determined to go, even though I wasn't fully recovered from the back injury. But I was like, I just don't care anymore. If I see someone famous, I'm just going to go up and say, hey, up. Yeah. I mean, why not? What's the worst that could happen? I mean, I waved at our local MP the other day because I saw her coming towards me on the street. Hiya. Yeah. Hi. I don't know her. I mean it's sort of yeah great crazy woman bless you yeah normally I leave them alone though because it must get really annoying I remember walking through New York and Forrest Whitaker was signing he was signing some somebody's book two lads were like looking at him starstruck and he turned and looked at me and Tom who were walking towards him and I just gave him the biggest smile and we walked past and we just left him alone and then turned I turned around just out of curiosity and he was he was still, his pen was hovering on the pad and he was just smiling at me.

6:07Katy Cowan:And I thought, oh, that was a little moment me and Forrest Whitaker had. You did. Amazing. He probably really appreciated the fact that I acknowledged who he was, but I left him alone. Yes. Yes. I think some people do appreciate just, just being, being told, I think you're great. I mean, who doesn't like that? I'd love it. I absolutely love it. oh gosh right what's a hill you die on when it comes to creative work well I think this one's pretty easy for me as as a writer I I just want people to bring the visuals and the verbals together you know let's let's collaborate let's let's take the word seriously let's let's kind of really get clear on on the message uh which doesn't always happen you know there are there are still designers uh working with laura mipsum out there i know it's such a missed opportunity isn't it yeah yeah so that's that's yeah definitely a hill i'd die on yeah it's the the copy is often in design the last thing people think about when it should be at the forefront should help direct everything, surely.

7:24Yeah. And certainly on, for instance, web design, creating websites, it's not always a case of sequentially sort of having the words come first and then the design. It's got to be a conversation. It's got to be a bit of give and take. And that's the way that I like working best. is, you know, getting our heads together and solving. Because we're trying to communicate. So it's, you know, it's not just the words. It's not just the visuals that do that. We have to have a shared concept and vision.

8:06Katy Cowan:It can't be a conveyor belt. That's the thing. Yeah. Which I used to draw when I was a kid, weirdly. I used to draw factories. I don't know why I just suddenly remembered that. That's very unusual. the weird kid um what's the most impulsive thing you've ever done while traveling i had a wonderful trip a couple of years ago now where i interrailed around europe with with my family and for about three weeks and we got to berlin and i had uh my two sons were were sort of young teens at the time and the consensus was that we were going to go to the science museum in Berlin and I just said no no I'm not I'm not going to be doing that and so I left them to it so my wonderful husband took the boys to the science museum and I went off on my own and had the most fabulous day in Berlin.

9:13I explored Urban Spree. I went for long walks. I met a wonderful lady called Dominika, a strategist who's based in Berlin, and she took me for donuts. And it was really, really good fun. So much as I love my family, you know, we had been traveling for a couple of weeks together already. And I started to get a taste for just solo travel and started thinking about how exciting it could be to just go alone and explore.

9:54Katy Cowan:Oh, it's the most brilliant thing as a journalist. I often get to go on press trips and I'll always try and extend the stay a little bit so I can have that moment myself. So yeah, just the sheer absolute freedom to just go and explore and not know where the day is going to take you. It's just magical. It really is, yeah. And as a mum, as being part of a family, you don't actually get that much time just to yourself. And when you're a writer or a creative of any sort, you desperately need some time to yourself just to be creative and be alone with your own thoughts in a positive way. Yeah, you do.

10:43Katy Cowan:It's where you get your nice ideas from and recharge, reset. It's always nice to have all that inspiring architecture and sights and sounds to enjoy as well. Gosh, I love travelling. Anyway, what's the oddest compliment you've ever received? I hope it wasn't from me. You're always mumbling. Yes, that was odd. Was that a compliment? You're talking to a girl who drew factories as a child. Yes, yes. Somebody did once tell me that I reminded them of Kate Winslet. Oh, did you actually? It was, I was in the States at the time, and I think it was the British accent, blonde hair, and, you know, we're a similar age, but that was quite nice.

11:33And I don't know what I've been told that I'm very hard to work with. That's not a compliment. I'm interpreting it as a compliment. I'm interpreting it as, you know, I like to challenge people. You don't fuck about. I like to push people. And at the end of the day, they appreciate that.

11:59Katy Cowan:Yes. They might not like what you say sometimes, but actually the whole point is you're getting them to somewhere better. Exactly that. Yeah. Sometimes we don't like to hear what we know deep down has to change. Yeah. And I mean, that's what my role is all about as a strategist. I mean, I'm a strategist first, copyright second. And when I set up Be Colorful, which was back in 2013 now, it was a way of being in control of my own destiny and working in a way that I wanted to work. And part of that was being able to have my own opinions and be very honest with people, whether it's clients or collaborators.

12:46Hard truths are really important.

12:49Katy Cowan:Yeah, because then we make progress and we're not just trying to live a lie. You know, I know my truth, Emily Penny. Do you? No. I'm trying, I'm trying. You're getting there. God loves a tryer. What's something you'd love to believe in, even if it's not real? I would love to believe that the future is rosy. Sorry, getting a bit deep here. But, you know, I think we have to be able to believe that things can always be improved, things can always get better. And this is something designers are actually very, very good at because they do wield the power of creating the future, of designing the future.

13:40But right now, you know, sometimes it feels like things are going backwards and in terms of progress and humanity and climate change, etc. But we have to believe that a better future is possible. I'd also really like to believe in fairies. I think they're very special. Well, they're real, aren't they? Yes. So, I mean, yeah, my, the, the fairy that caught my heart when I was probably about four years old was, of course, Tinkerbell. And I, I adore her for her feisty personality and her incredible influence and, and power from such a tiny magical creature. Oh, I thought you were going to say Merriweather, who I also loved for obvious reasons.

14:44Katy Cowan:Trouble. Yes. Stubborn. Oh, sweet or salty? I refuse to choose between sweet and salty. I'm sorry, but you have to. This is the spark. I eat jam with chicken. I eat syrup with bacon. I am all about the sweet salty combo. Fair enough. My fridge is so full of condiments that there's no room for any actual food because it's all about the condiments, the sweet and salty. Japanese food, sushi. I mean, sushi is, you think, oh, that's got to be healthy. It's fish. It's just a bit of rice, full of sugar. Oh, right. Yeah. Have you tried mango with salmon? I'm definitely up for it. I've tried rhubarb with mackerel.

15:43Ooh, that sounds gorgeous.

15:45Katy Cowan:Yeah. There's a really beautiful book, actually. Do you have it? Which book? it's it's stunning it's like it's it's about what flavors go together with what it's a beautiful design on the front that sounds good don't look it up i'm gonna get you that as a little thank you and you'll have to give me a home address where i can stand outside and look out for kate winslet for you oh oh i love this one what's the most recent photo on your phone well sadly this is absolutely true and you can look it up because I posted it on LinkedIn yesterday um so I was walking up the high street in Chichester yesterday and I saw them putting the new signage up at what was WH Smith and is now TJ Jones so my photo is of the chap painting the fascia with the the new T.J.

16:46Jones. What's T.J. Jones? Well, it's, I mean, it's, it doesn't mean anything, does it? It's, it's the, the new owners of WH Smith. I mean, do not fear they are still selling oversized chocolate bars and whatever other odd combination of things WH Smith sells, but yeah, it is no more.

17:10Katy Cowan:Sad, isn't it? Ours in town is closed. And I think there's rumours that it's going to be a Starbucks. OK. Well, I was kind of hoping to finish on a high, but... I wonder, let's see what the next photo was before that. Actually, that was a complete lie. TJ Jones was yesterday's photo, but I did take a photo of me in the rain on the way here. So, because as you know, what every woman with curly hair loves is to get caught in the rain just before a podcast appearance. I am so sorry, but it's just tragic that you look so gorgeous, darling. So here we are, big hair. I love it. I love it. We've got exactly the same hair.

18:03Katy Cowan:The only reason why this is tame is because I have learned to accept that two times a week I have to wash my hair and I have to dry it with a big barrel brush. Otherwise. No, it's not true. It's not true. I'm going to send you some products that are going to change your life and help you step into your authentic self. Oh my gosh, which is the whole kind of era that I'm in. Yeah. People are just going to be so sick of me come this time next year. It's going to be great. So the previous guest was the gorgeous Claire Blythe, Red Setter fame, lovely, lovely human. And we just had such a nice laugh.

18:43Katy Cowan:What excites you about where the design industry is heading, say in five years time? That was her question. That's a big question. I know it is, but it's Claire bloody Blythe. You know what she's like? Yes. Yes. Deep and meaningful and full of wisdom. And I say this because I want to always be her buddy. You know, I mean, the creative industry isn't going anywhere. Humans are creative souls. And yes, we need to evolve and things will change. But there's always going to be a place for creativity. And I think what the design industry needs to start appreciating more and start championing more is the power of intuition and instinct.

19:43because certainly in my work as a strategist, yes, you can do the research, you can do the discovery, you can get all the data, the information, but at some point you have to join the dots and you have to actually use your mind to imagine a solution and imagine a way forward. So we need to keep hold of human imagination and instincts and listen to that. We don't even know how our brains work. I mean, let's be honest. You know, scientists don't wholly know how our brains work. And supposedly we don't use nearly as much of our brains as we could do. There is so much subconscious stuff going on that is what's special about being human.

20:42Katy Cowan:Yeah, I love that. Very positive, very optimistic. And I assume you're alluding to the AI doom cloud that's over us. I believe it's a tool and it's just going to enhance things. And yes, things will change, da-di-da-di-da. But overall, human, that's the word of the year, isn't it? Human. Yeah, human. and listening, listening to those, those silent, those signals, those, those feelings. Let's, let's lean into feelings. Love that. Okay. So we need a question for next week's guest. Have you got one? I do. What I would be really interested to know is what were you obsessed with as a child and how did that play out in your career?

21:33Amazing.

21:34Katy Cowan:If I was answering that, probably the Weetabix Club. Weetabix Club. Was there a club? I missed out on the club. There was a club. There was a club for everything back then, wasn't there? I loved a club. Did you make clubs at school with friends? I did. It was really sad. I had a dance club. Of course you did. Of course you did. I was always doing something stupid. Oh, dear. You won't believe this. I didn't just have a club. I had a magazine. Oh, my goodness. I love that. What was it called? Well, my club was the Cactus Club and it was all about growing cacti. I was obsessed with. So this is my, what I was obsessed with as a child.

22:25And I'm still obsessed with plants. I love plants. Yeah, same.

22:29Katy Cowan:I'm keeping them alive. Look. So, yeah, I think you've got the same one I've got up there, actually. What, this one here? Yes. Yes, I've got one of those. I don't know what it's called. No. Can you remember what that's called? I do not know. They're very fussy. That's why I like it. It's like, it's very fussy. And this is the third place I've put it in the house. It seems to be much happier in here. I think it likes company. I get on much better. I had to give up the cacti because I gave them too much love. And it's really easy to kill cacti by overwatering them. You smothered them. Yeah, I smothered them.

23:11So I kill cacti. But at the time, that was my club. And I even had a magazine with top tips.

23:20Katy Cowan:And yeah. How old were you? That was probably from about the age of nine. This was several years with my friend Anna, who was my cactus nerd bunny, buddy. So, yeah, two nerdy nine-year-olds who were very into cacti. That's it. From now on, I'm going to call you Deputy Penny. Yeah, that's it. So we'll be in a crowded space. It will be, you know, full of all the kind of very prestigious design studios. and you'll just hear from nowhere, Deputy Penny! Oh, I know this is going to happen as well. It's going to be like next year's D &AD festival across the auditorium. Yeah, when I've got 50 ,000 subscribers and I've got YouTube thumbnails with me going.

24:11Katy Cowan:And the thumbnail title says something like meeting, bumping into Deputy Penny. And maybe a cowboy cactus graphic in the background. It'll be brilliant. It sounds like my sort of thing. Definitely. Well, you are very gracious and very kind. And Deputy Penny, Emily Penny, this has been wonderful as I predicted it would. Thank you so much for your time today. Thanks, Katie. Lovely to see you.