The Spark: Paul Benney on Creative Envy, Childhood Freedom & a Dream Dinner with Tony Wilson

0:03Katy Cowan:We're back for another episode with Paul Benney of Disco Pogo Bugged Out fame. If you haven't listened to the interview yet that we had on Monday, please do give it a go. It was fascinating to dive into his career over three decades plus, possibly. I don't know how old I am. I don't think you know how old you are. Thanks so much for joining me back on the Creative Boone podcast, Paul. Yep, great to be back. and now we're going to ask you some questions which you've chosen from a big long list um it's going to give us a little bit more of an insight into the person behind the brand okay can't wait these are these are things you've prepared for so we're not going to like throw any kind of you know surprises at you but uh we're going to start with something i always find really interesting when you're talking to somebody who's obviously quite a generalist and has done lots of things across different mediums but what's a discipline or medium you secretly wish you were really good at um I'd love to be able I'd love to be a musician oh so that makes sense my my entire career I've been you know in the music industry I've been a music journalist and run magazines and signed artists and run a label and all of those things um adjacent to you know music and um but never uh you know, made any music of my own.

1:27So, and it wasn't my, I didn't ever really want to be a pop star or anything. I always, um, realized that my, you know, career was going to be in and around music rather than, you know, being in a band or something. But, um, whenever I talk to someone and I tell them what I do, they say, Oh, can you play, you know, can you make music? And I go, no I've got no musical talent whatsoever um so yeah to be able to play an instrument I'd love to be able to um you know I'd love to be able to play the guitar why don't you just learn well I have done like a lot of people in lockdown I had a you know I had a little go and I've still got we've got a guitar in the house we've got a bass in the house we've got amps that my brother's given me and um an ukulele uh we we did have I don't know if we've still got the kids have had those and um so I've got no excuses yeah but um it's all about focus isn't it so I uh so much of what I do nowadays is a bit of this and a bit of that and you know emails and texts and phone calls and you know what you need to make music is focus you need to turn all that off and spend an hour every day you know and so I do think that um maybe when I can get I'd love to get to that point in my work life when I could be like yeah Mondays I'm I'm learning the guitar I'm jamming man yeah yeah don't don't message me on a Monday man because I'm I'm uh and I also thought yeah being in a band would be a great thing to do and you know what not a band as in making original music um and slogging it out trying to get people interested in what you're doing but like an Iggy and the Stooges covers band or something like that something pure fun you know playing someone else's brilliant music so maybe one day love it which leads me on to another question which

3:23Katy Cowan:closely tied I guess have you ever been creatively jealous of someone and how did you handle it so yeah I saw this question and um I actually thought of someone quite quickly um who I'm a big fan of richard russell all right who um uh is the founder of xl recordings best independent record label in the world um home to adele and the white stripes and the prodigy and a whole bunch of other acts um and um i read his book which is for anyone interested in the music industry or music in general you know his book's incredible a memoir about his life and um he's very humble in it and but it's a great story and um so he set up this amazing record company uh and signed the biggest artists in the world you know one of the biggest artists Adele um and but uh then he started producing artists which is what he did right at the beginning he made some kind of hardcore records and that's how he ended up signing the prodigy so he was a producer and dj to begin with then got side that all got sidelined because he ran the label um but in recent years richard russell has stopped running the label and handed all that over to other people because he doesn't want to sit behind the desk doesn't want to be getting emails from people doesn't want to be dealing with all the stuff that's associated with running a successful record label it's a lot of work and he um he produced one of his heroes uh gil scott heron and then went off and um produced some other artists and now he's in an incredible band where um he brings in loads of musicians to collaborate on projects called everything is recorded yeah and um he tells this story when he was producing gil scott heron um that gil scott heron said is this what you do now like why what are you you are you a record label guy or are you a producer and richard russell says that at that moment he knew that he had to make a choice wow and he decided that what he wanted to be was a musician and um so um i don't like the word jealous but envious try not to be jealous of anyone but envious of someone who can on the business side of things create the best independent record label in the world and then decide to put all that on one side and not do it day to day anymore and just make music because he's musically talented is um something that i'm you know i think it's an incredible thing inspired by inspired by i think some people um when they create successful businesses they they love being the man don't they yeah and he's like i don't i don't need to be that i don't need to do that anymore you know he owns the label other people run it what he wants to do with his days from now until the day he dies is make music it's a good reminder isn't it we we assume everybody else has it figured out but actually everybody's just on their own little journey and that can change at any time yeah and it's you know it's a reminder to me that i'm at that stage where i have to do all the other stuff you know the you know the paying bills and the emails and social media.

6:41But it is a reminder to try and focus on the things that, you know, so if you didn't have to do that stuff, what would you do? One thing for me is that I think that I would still be publishing magazines and books. And so I love to go through that thought process, like, why are you doing this? And if you could do anything out in the world, you win the lottery tomorrow, you don't have to do it anymore. Would you still do it? And with the publishing books and magazines, I think I would.

7:10Katy Cowan:Oh, yeah. A hundred percent. I'd still do Creative Boom, even if I was like loaded and could just go and live a fancy life. So how lucky are you to be able to say that? Oh, yeah. It's so, you know, it's an incredible thing and we should both be very grateful. I would just get a bigger team. Oh, oh, yeah. I mean, obviously, you would make things a little bit easier for yourself. Oh, yeah. There's parts of this that I do at the moment that I wouldn't, you know, I'd rather not be doing. But the general thing, you running Creative Boom, me running Disco Pogo, would I want to carry on doing those things?

7:44Absolutely.

7:45Katy Cowan:This is why I don't understand when people say they're going to retire. Like, what do you mean? What are you going to do? Well, I mean, I suppose sometimes people pay their jobs. Yeah. You know? Are you saying I've got privilege I didn't realise I had? I think that it's an amazing thing that you could say that you you don't want to retire you know and it's an amazing thing that you know I wouldn't mind feeling like I could retire financially yeah obviously it's it's nice to know that you've got that if you need to and that but I'm going to carry on doing it anyway yeah but but yeah the people that I've spoken to who have retired you know they retired because um you know the job was just a job just a way of earning money and when they had enough money they gave it up you don't feel like this is a job do you though i sometimes do when you're paying bills and like i said you've got to get that social media post out today and but no in general uh publishing books and magazines and writing about music that you're into doesn't doesn't it feels like i feel very lucky to be able to do it yeah same and i know you're a busy chap you've got all these tasks every day that you have to handle teams to manage things to do have you got a small ritual or habit that makes your day better that you've managed to squeeze in yeah i make i make um i make a smoothie every morning nice i don't know and it drives the family mad because it's on a ninja you know and it's very noisy they're brutal and um and so yeah that might be a bit of a boring little ritual but um but um you know making that protein smoothie every day is um uh uh yeah makes me feel great the other thing that I do a couple of times a week is go out on my bike oh yeah but maybe that's not a tiny little ritual but I'm you know working from home I've realized that I can um you know have a couple of mornings a week where you know before I start work you know go out and ride my bike for an hour and a half what is your bike i've got a road i've got a road bike and an off-road bike and i've got i live in leon c and i've got a group of friends who are kind of informally called the lee riders nice and going back to the retirement thing a number of those people are retired they retired at 60 and they're they've got free time and so on a tuesday and a thursday morning at 8 15 most tuesday and thursday mornings we go out for hour and a half bike ride right about 25 miles coffee afterwards and then I'm back at my desk for 10.

10:22Nice so I love I love a bike ride I love the cafe stop yeah absolutely you can have that cake you can absolutely have that chocolate cake yeah yeah exactly guilt guilt free cake yeah it's great oh I didn't know you were into cycling um yeah I'm going out for a bike ride tonight actually off road for go out at six o 'clock and probably a couple of hours um obviously you can do it in the summer months don't really cycle in the evening when it gets dark but no but yeah it's a one it's an amazing you know it's an amazing thing it's um fun and hard sometimes and great sense of achievement

10:58Katy Cowan:and um I love it yeah makes you feel like a kid again yeah speaking of childhood what's a scent or smell that instantly takes you back to a memory I mean it doesn't necessarily have to be a childhood memory sorry well when I saw this question I immediately thought of you know freshly cut grass um because my childhood was on a on a you know a wimpy estate in bletchley milton keens you know the wimpy houses you know um typical 70s estate and i used to go out in the morning say goodbye it's summer holidays i suppose say goodbye to my mum and dad and i probably i must have gone home for lunch you know but then after lunch it was like right see you later um Same.

11:44Make sure you're home before it gets dark. Football under my arm. Yeah. Maybe, maybe cricket sometimes in the summer when the cricket was on the telly, maybe a tennis racket when Wimbledon was on.

11:57Katy Cowan:Yeah, same, same, same. And it was a wonderful thing. And I just remember that feeling, that smell of freshly cut grass and being with your mates, you know, when you're that young. And I'm talking about, you know, I'm talking about, you know, you know, eight years old, you know, that kind of age, you know, football under your arm, playing football all day, you know, nipping home for some orange squash. Yes. I mean, it sounds very jumpers for goalposts, that, which is a bit ridiculous. It was. But it was, you know, it was a great way to grow up, you know, outdoors, basically. Yeah, mum's at home made ice lollies in summer.

12:42Katy Cowan:Remember those with the plastic? No mobile phones. No. But also, you know, no one, you know, really worried about that, you know, you're just out all day. That's what kids did. Did you ever get chased off farmer's fields like we did? I'm sure that stuff, you know, you sometimes get into some scrapes, but nothing serious. Building dens. Yeah, you go down, you know, the brook. The brook. The brook. Or, you know, into the, you know, into the bit of, you know, the woods, although it's probably just a few trees somewhere, you know, off this estate. Where we'd later go and smoke spliffs. But it was, yeah, you know, and it's very different to the way kids grow up now, isn't it?

13:25I've got two kids and, you know, they love being outdoors, but that's just not, that's not how they live their lives, you know. No. You know, their lives, their lives are indoors, you know.

13:34Katy Cowan:Do you think, do you think because we had that childhood, that's part of what gave us the entrepreneurial spirit, the sense of adventure, not being so risk averse? I think, I mean, yeah, I mean, I think, I mean, yeah, it's an interesting point. I've not really thought about it. I thought about the fact that my dad was a contractor. and so I always felt like he never had a proper job even though it was a proper job it was just for short periods of time for different companies in different parts of the world right so he didn't have one of those jobs for life and so I think that made even though he wasn't an entrepreneur it made me feel entrepreneurial but yes I can see I've always been never been risk averse only only now I've got a bit older have I got more sensibly risk averse yes when I was in my 20s starting jockey start and bugged out I was the opposite of risk averse probably in my teens I was the opposite of risk averse and yeah that's an interesting point I'd not really thought about it but yeah that growing up with that freedom to just go out in the morning um with a basic plan that you're going to play football or cricket all day or just be outdoors all day or on your bikes I suppose you'd go off riding your bikes and then there was that feeling of but maybe some other stuff will happen and who knows what that will be you know you know some scrapes like you said yeah um so that is an interesting point um it could very well have led to people of that generation you know being uh less risk averse definitely i just remembered what we called arbrook it was called the addy right i can't remember what it was short for but it's still today 30 40 years on if you're in my hometown in the pub and somebody brings up the addy you know exactly what they're talking about it's just so uh charming um yeah it was a great i i went past there recently i was visiting my parents i cycled up to the old estate that we lived on it just seemed very different but it's a different time now but um i just remember us knowing all the neighbors we had low fences in the back of the garden as well so it meant that you know we you know you could see into you know next door's garden and the next door and you you talk to everyone everyone knew each other i'm sure it wasn't as idyllic as i'm making it sound but there was a sense of community you know all the neighbors knew each other and uh the other thing was all the dads at the weekend would be fixing their cars yeah out the back helping each other and um obviously no one hardly anyone fixes their own cars nowadays because they're too complicated but yeah well they just don't break down they just don't break down as much but you know what's really cute my mom and dad still live in the same house i grew up since i seven years old there's a lot of the neighbors are the same so when i go home and go and visit them it's just it's like stepping back in time because it's just or and if my mum and dad have a party there are people that they've known that go there that you know for 40 plus years that sounds like a lovely thing it's a very lovely thing and it's something i know they cherish i i do not take for granted you know i call a lot of my mum and dad's friends aunt and uncle yeah we all did that yeah that's a funny thing isn't it it's so sweet so i've i've still got that yeah and i know a lot of people don't have it because people move around don't they uh yeah and also um i don't know we know our neighbors here but i mean um i remember living in london your neighbors didn't talk to each other you know like i said it sounds like i'm being a bit grumpy and the 70s were brilliant it wasn't all brilliant no it wasn't but we did know our neighbors yes we did so if you could swap lives with a historical figure for a week for a whole week who would it be oh i chose malcolm mclaren oh right at the height of the sex pistols uh blowing up because because he was always you know an inspiration to me in and that goes with the not being risk averse i love the chaos i love and it's one of the reasons i was trying to explain it to my daughter and i think she might have thought I was a bit crazy but I was saying one of the interesting things that about music for me was chaos yeah it was the anything can happen you can do anything you can be anything and things like the Sex Pistols but later on people you know bands like the Jesus and Mary chain one of the fascinating who I was really into you know there were you know little riots at their gigs yeah Rage Against the Machine back in my day yeah absolutely and so if I could swap places with anyone for a week um Malcolm McLaren at the height of the Sex Pistols fame would be um that would be the one brilliant it's because you grew up in a cool-de-sac you're a cool-de-sac kid so you like the chaos that's there you go I'm just this is like some I was a I did grow up in a cool-de-sac yeah Selina Close Bletchley Milton Keynes oh I I lived in Leighton Buzzard briefly when I was a kid so I know just down the road yeah yeah I know Milton I know Milton Keynes quite well because of that and I got my first bike from Habitat in Milton Keynes.

18:37Oh right.

18:37Katy Cowan:A cute little red and blue and yellow bike. Anyway what's something you'd love to believe in even if it's not real? It sounds a bit heavy but you know life after death? I don't think that's heavy. I think we all hope that don't we? Get to say. You know when you try and think about what happens to you after you pass away it's mind-blowing isn't it yeah what nothing how can that be what's nothing how can that but i'm so i i'm you know what am i gonna so i'm not gonna be there's not gonna be i'm not gonna be thinking that there's nothing yeah there's nothing so your atoms i'm not gonna be thinking yeah it's um so you don't actually fully go you know that don't you your atoms sort of just float into other i don't know how it works we're not we're not actually here we're just sort of made up of particles yeah isn't that mind-blowing in itself it it is but i mean what happens to your mind you know you don't think i'm dead you're like you you aren't thinking because you're not there it's like um anyway it's always fascinated me as i'm sure it's always fascinated sure everyone thinks about this kind of thing don't they and um depends how many drugs you took in the 90s and um but um i'll keep trying i don't even know i haven't got that thing where i'd like oh i'd love to come back as this or i'd love to come back as a or that it's not that it's just you just want to know that you can see the people you love again yeah to know that there was something that's it that's all it is i mean i was brought up catholics i was brought up to believe in heaven i don't believe in heaven honestly we need a whole other episode i was as well i'm not you You know, I'm a totally lapsed Catholic.

20:24I'm not religious. I don't go to church and I don't believe in heaven.

20:27Katy Cowan:Do you still go into churches when you're in different cities, though, and do that thing where you just put a bit of coin in the thing and light a candle? I'm obviously very respectful of, you know, religion and its personal choice. And I've got, obviously, I've generally not got a problem with it. Obviously, sometimes it causes problems, which is a terrible thing. But I mean, you know, for some people, it's a great comfort and that's fine with me. Of course. so no it's not um i'm not religious but um you know i'd love to think there was something yeah we stole um all those uh hosts once from the priest when we were supposed to be cleaning up the church and we all sort of hid behind a seat and ate them all yeah i did you know yeah as a catholic the body of christ and all that and uh yeah i did all that but i confession and I think when I was about 12 or 13, I said to my parents, do I have to go anymore?

21:22I think I did the same. And they said, not if you don't want to. And I said, of course I don't want to. I've never wanted to go, so I'm not going to go. And then they never went ever again either.

21:33Katy Cowan:Oh, that's cute. Because they were obviously, they thought that it was the right thing to do to take me to church. and as soon as I said well I'm not going anymore they they I don't think they said to me well we're not going either I just noticed that on a Sunday they weren't leaving the house so they probably loved it they probably think gosh this is getting our day back I don't think they wanted to go to church either yeah and they've never been back well that's something I didn't expect to learn about you today Paul both of us lapsed Catholics there you go but as for the question about what's next i think there's comfort in knowing that it just it goes dark and that's it and you don't know because it makes our time here even more special but those are my two pence yeah i agree with that i you know i agree with that and yeah i'm not thinking about this particular thing you know all day every day it's not keeping me awake at night no if i'm encouraged to think about it then i'm i'm like yeah it's some you know none of us know do we how how billions of people on this earth none of us know if you could find out what happens if there was some sort of i don't know higher meaning yeah if you could find out but the personal thing or entity or blob floating blob whatever it is said to you i'm going to tell you what happened but you're never going to be able to tell anybody else because if you do you'll drop down dead well that is a brilliant question i I love the scenario that you've created there off the top of your head.

23:05And I suppose I wouldn't want to know. No. I'm saying like, I want to know, but I don't really want to know.

23:10Katy Cowan:Well, you wouldn't want to know in that case because you wouldn't be able to keep it secret. Yeah. I mean, so yeah, I suppose maybe it's fine the way it is. We don't know. Maybe that's the best way. Maybe it is. But can I just admit that for a long time in the, whenever it was, the 90s or the late 80s, I thought that when you died, Patrick Swayze would be waiting for you. with a lot of bright light behind him. But, you know, hey-ho. That would be amazing. It would. It would. That and all the people you loved. Right. Not to be narcissistic, but anyway, dream dinner guest, dead or alive, who would you have?

23:48I'm going to go for Tony Wilson.

23:50Katy Cowan:Oh, good old Manchester. Because when we were running Jockey Slut, even when we were running the college magazine, Tony Wilson was available to us. we'd want to interview him he'd make himself available to us good egg he was supportive of what we were doing even if we were sometimes critical of him i remember hanging out with him a bit for various reasons sometimes to do within the city he was you know he was very visible in and around manchester and um but also making himself available to these people in their early 20s who we didn't really you know we were just in the early part of our career but we were talking to mr manchester yeah they probably he probably loved it and um and there was one time when me and jonno went to his office uh for a meeting with him about something and now i can't remember what the meeting was about but he said look let's walk and talk hacienda had shut at that point he said the bailiffs are coming in the hacienda tomorrow um and i want to go around and see if there's anything that i want to keep and you guys can come with me um he said oh by the way you can keep anything you want as well amazing so we wandered around the hacienda after it shut the day before the bailiffs had come in with tony wilson um and i was a bit weirded out by the whole thing because i thought it should be it should be a sad thing like the bailiffs are coming and your business the business is over and um but um you know he was just his normal self um and my partner jonah got a bollard from the edge of the dance floor oh brilliant and which he still has to this day which i think is worth a lot of money and um i didn't take anything because i felt so weird about taking souvenirs and now i regret it i wish i i wish i'd got a bollard as well there were more than there was plenty of bollards there was well there's a few bollards around the edge of the dance floor john had got one of them i wish i'd got one but um So, and we moved to London and Tony Wilson, you know, passed away.

25:52And I sent him a message when he was ill saying, thanks for everything. I emailed him. Thanks for everything. You really inspired us. You always had time for us. And I joked and I said, the only thing that we don't thank you for is the fact that he always said, you know, some people make money, others make history. and so the whole thing was concentrate on making history don't worry about the money and I said sometimes I wish that I thought about the money a little bit more but um anyway he um he sent me a message back saying you know something in Latin I think ven semeros I think it was which I think means we will make it or I will make it and of course he didn't make it and um uh and but to to to spend some time with him now and, you know, thank him for, you know, everything that, you know, how inspiring he's been for so many people in Manchester, in the music industry.

26:50But also, he's just, he was just great company, the little bit of time I spent with him. You know, what a brilliant, fascinating, funny, you know, intelligent person he was who and he was someone who was happy to take risks. If he was passionate about something, didn't matter about the money. You've heard all the

27:08Katy Cowan:stories he was like he was all about risk and um there aren't many people like him you know or anyone like him left so so yeah dinner dinner with tony wilson i would love that one of the rebels yep what emoji do you overuse paul benny well i use the uh you know the prey emoji a lot yes that's just being nice isn't it you know it's not do you know what this this is something i found out a couple of years ago i'm gonna make i'm not this is not my intention to embarrass you but it's not the pray emoji it's two hands coming together and clapping doing a high five oh okay i always thought it was the pray emoji which you you know which obviously you use as not a praying but as a thank you yes you know maybe i'm wrong i don't know we need we need our listeners to send the thing is with emojis it doesn't really matter what they're supposed to be because they become well exactly but they become what they you know they're used in different ways aren't they yeah like a peach means something else doesn't it things mean things mean other things aubergine so i use that a lot and then with disco pogo we use a classic smiley face a lot you know in an acid house way yes but my but my favorite new emoji which my partner jonno has he started using a lot and then i started it started resonating with me and i don't know what it's called but it's the kind of melting smiley face the one like that yeah and it just feels like for so many we've had conversations recently and for so many things in the world right now yes that's the it feels like if there was an emoji for 2025 that well that should be the emoji of the year i must admit i think that's one of the ones i use a lot these days that and the one where you've got them peeking out between you know behind two hands going oh can't look so that's that's become my new you know my new go-to i love it i use the eyes emoji for the creative beam branding and i found out a couple of months ago that for the younger generations those eyes mean naked i can yeah you can kind of see it can't you you can but you can't unsee it after you've now mentioned it so for the last 10 years i've just basically been talking to younger generations when i reply to them on social media because it's it's a really powerful little emoji for our brand because it can say so much without saying anything at all yeah so if somebody's a bit cheeky or if somebody yeah if somebody is critical or if somebody like says oh i don't like this graphic design work that you've posted on linkedin all i have to do is put the little eyes emoji on and just walk away yeah i didn't i said i yeah i always used it for like you know look at this you know yeah you know um yeah you'd share something wouldn't you use the eyes like you know that you've um that yeah something is happening that you should keep an eye on yeah i've never heard the naked thing to be honest how little did we know hey you know there's there's so much that we have left to uh learn you know this yeah i don't know what i'm to say okay so what we do with our guests is we always ask them at the end of the spark for a question for our next guest and they answer a question from the previous guest and obviously this is a brand new season and we have kept James Greenfield of Koto's question from last time which ended in July can you believe that feels like a long time ago wink wink nudge nudge what's the most surprising thing about you or what's a big surprising thing about you so all i could think of for this is because i'm worried that i'm going to disappoint people and people are going to immediately say that isn't that surprising or interesting but all i could think of was is that i'm american i'm not born in the uk i'm born in the usa that is quite surprising And I suppose, you know, having spent, you know, everything that I've done feels, you know, quite British, I suppose, you know.

31:18And but my dad, as I mentioned, was a he was a contractor, an aircraft design engineer. He worked all over the world. And I was born when he was working for a company in Atlanta, Georgia. And that's where I was born. And then I came back to England when I was 18 months old. but I went back out to, I came back from America when I was 18 months old, but I went back out to America to live in Seattle when I was nine.

31:47Katy Cowan:Wow. Until I was 12 and a half because he worked for Boeing out there. And I absolutely loved it. And I was a complete American kid. I had an American accent, like developed an American accent. And I played baseball and basketball. And I just turned into at that age you're very adaptable you know you're just your environment is everything and all of us you know so after a year or so I was a complete American kid and then uh but then my dad's contract came to an end when I was about 12 and a half so that was 1982 um the difficult thing was I had to come back to England then yeah with the American accent and the flares and the all american kid um you know this was pre-matchester so the flares weren't in at the time and um started secondary school with the american accent all the wrong clothes um not knowing anyone and um but yeah i still have dual citizenship uh you know it's kind of useful sometimes but um parents british my parents are british yeah and um and i i did a lot of traveling in america when i was there and elements of it I absolutely loved and I still love elements of America but um there's a lot not to love nowadays as well isn't there well yeah what's new hey what's new the world keeps on turning you know the the America of Trump that you know is um you know I couldn't believe you were gonna fart to be honest I mean what can we do we can just laugh yeah now I'm going to ask you for a question for our next guest.

33:33Katy Cowan:Have you got one? How about what is the first book that you read that you feel really changed you? Oh, that's a good one. You know, like you've got that book that you're like, oh my God, I didn't know a book could do this to me. That's such a great question. I will pose that to our next guest next week. Oh, Paul, thank you so much for this. It's been great. Yeah, I've really enjoyed it. Thanks for inviting me on and congrats with creative boom I mean it's like you're interviewing me but I can't believe what you've achieved with creative boom it's you know just you should be very proud of it incredible achievement oh thanks Paul likewise I mean everything you've done I hope you do give yourself a pat on the back now and again now and again