Why Taste Matters More Than Ever in the Age of AI, with Aporva Baxi

0:06Katy Cowan:Welcome back to the Creative Bean podcast. Super enjoying this season. I've got some brilliant people lined up and today's guest is someone I've been wanting to get on the show for quite some time. Aporva Baxi is co-founder of Dixon Baxi, one of the most respected branding agencies out there. And if you've ever admired bold, distinctive work that feels like it's actually got something to say, chances are you've come across them. I actually went down to their London studio just before Christmas for a proper tour. We put something together for Creative Booms YouTube. If you haven't watched it, go check it out.

0:38Katy Cowan:It's brilliant. And at one point we ended up having a full-on console off comparing all the video games we grew up with. So yes, this is kind of a continuation of that experience. But what really stayed with me wasn't just the nostalgia. It was the thinking and the curiosity and that constant push to evolve something that Apova and Simon very much share in common. So in this episode, we're talking about where things are heading, AI, of course, and the pace of change. And this idea that keeps coming up again and again, no matter who I talk to, that taste might be the thing that really sets us apart right now.

1:14Katy Cowan:It's a big one, but it's also a really optimistic conversation. So if you've been feeling a bit unsure about where you fit into all of this, this might just give you a bit of a boost.

1:29Katy Cowan:This episode is brought to you by Adobe, headline sponsor of the first Bionic Awards, which took place earlier this month and are the first awards of their kind in the creative AI space. The aim was to celebrate human creativity in the age of AI, not tools for their own sake, but what brilliant people are actually making with them. Adobe's support of that feels very right to us, and we'll be hearing from co-founder Alex Pell later in the episode. More on Adobe at the link in the show notes.

2:02Katy Cowan:It is so nice to see you again. I know we're over the web this time and not in person, but how are you, Apoorva? Yeah, no, great to see you. I'm very good, actually. It was amazing having you and Jack at the studio. That was amazing to spend some time and show you around. So this feels like a great follow on. Do you know, we had some great feedback on that vlog. So many comments and private emails and LinkedIn messages, just all thanking us for putting that out there. Because obviously your studio, your agency is very, very popular. It was very kind. I think you opened that with some very kind words.

2:39But it was a real pleasure kind of, you know, taking you around the studio. And I love the fact that you spent some quality time with us. You know, it wasn't just like 30 minutes and here's a tour. I think you took the time, as you always do, to get inside how we do things. And it was really great you met some of the team. I think that was really important to just get a flavor for it. It's fantastic to see the views and how it's resonated. And, you know, I guess it just proves that people want to see, you know, what happens inside studios, how they really work and that, you know, isn't all a straight line.

3:13Katy Cowan:It's very creative boom. It's lifting the lid of the mysterious. Yeah, I think you do that very well, you know, in the articles, especially, you know, the following articles. And I particularly like that, the idea that, you know, you spend time, you know, getting to the root of the idea or why something happened. And I think, you know, we're very good at showing the surface, you know, that finished product and everyone can get behind it. or not or have, you know, criticism of it. But oftentimes it's the journey and the behind the scenes that seem to have the biggest richness and the more interesting stories.

3:50Katy Cowan:Yeah, but forgive me, my favourite bit of that whole tour is when you and I had a console off and we were back and forth. Oh, yeah, that was good. I remember that. I did see a comment around that. And we have to talk about that more. Maybe it's not for this discussion, but I love the fact that you've had all the consoles and you got very excited about that. I didn't expect that anyone that I find that's into that, I'm an instant friend and I love that moment. Well, maybe we'll talk about that on The Spark, which is the episode later in the week that asks you a few silly questions and all that.

4:27You've got a Game Boy, is that a Game Boy behind you? It is a Game Boy, yes, well spotted. Is that an original Game Boy, well done.

4:33Katy Cowan:Yes, yes, I know. yeah and i've got um a few little games here as well come on we've got to do this haven't we yeah cute little oh fantastic classic i love that it's so much nostalgia tetris and what about you know i've completely forgotten what's in here and i have to make a confession this isn't mine this is um my husband's i was like i'm having that because i wasn't allowed it when I was a kid. My parents were like, no, you've got the Atari ST and that's it. I can't see what that is. That's not bad. You know what? I have gone back in time and bought the things that I wanted when I was a kid, whether it was a gaming watch or a particular console.

5:16But I love that. I think those things are a vintage technology, but they draw a line in time. They're kind of the precursor to the things that we have today. So I think they're design icons in their own way.

5:30Katy Cowan:Yeah, I think we're similar age. So it's going to be quite an interesting discussion this episode because we're going to be talking about technology, of course. It's what everybody's talking about. AI, how it's changing design. And the theme that we're going to be chatting about is taste being the new moat. Yes. Yeah. It was something you were keen to chat about. And it was something we sort of brushed upon when I was at Dick's and Baxi before Christmas. Yeah, I think it's a really interesting one. We live in this incredible moment, you know, and for good or, you know, some folks obviously think that there's some challenges to that.

6:12And I think there are. But it's an incredible time. And arguably, we're in this tipping point of a revolution of things changing dramatically, which can feel scary, but also exciting because it's full of potential and possibility. And, you know, it means that you have to lean into it, I think, and find a way through it. But to your point about taste, there's, you know, an incredible amount of platforms and products and tools, design tools, AI tools, you know, tools for every aspect of life, you know, whether that's, you know, an intelligence that sorts your email out or your calendar or, you know, Figma has, you know, AI baked in and Canva and so on.

6:55But I think there's a challenge with that. Two things happen. One is that in a really good way, democratizes design even more. The idea of creativity is in the hands of so many more people on all these platforms. And maybe you just need your phone to do a lot of things. and so arguably it's raising the ground you know everyone's kind of moving up there's a shift in potential quality I think I certainly see that but however you know there is a ceiling and the thing that happens and I think this is the the question around taste is that there is a danger that the products themselves start to dictate how we do things right so we start adapting to the platform and what the platform gives us.

7:42And it's happened through time, you know, with a successive technology, you know, you start using Photoshop first time, you know, you use those filters and it creates a thing. But I think there's going to be a need for a paradigm shift where if everyone's got the tools, is it taste or is it craft or is it that idiosyncratic, weird, wonky point of view that you have that makes it different? And I find that interesting because then it pushes us to go after that. You know, that's a really interesting moat to cross. I think it can be scary because we can get to, in a lot of ways, even with kind of the mock-ups that we use, anything can look great.

8:26I think to our point earlier, it's the thinking and the feeling that you derive from the work that's important. But I think with these platforms, that the challenge is that it's so seductive, you know, to use ChatGPT or Claude or any of those things, you know, Figma tools to erase things or to create a module or to, with Claude code, you know, create an entire website and have it debug things and so on. So I think all that is amazing. It's where we go to once we have those tools. You know, what music can we play? What things can we create? So, yeah, that really interests me. And I think for the whole industry, it's this moment, this tipping point where we rush into it and up it and over it somehow and figure out what that new version of what we do is.

9:16And I think it roots back to based and what we already have. It's making the decision to stop doing something, to delete something, to know when to stop, to make the right decision. So if you've got millions of options, which one is the one that is the one that counts?

9:37Katy Cowan:Yeah, it's true. That's the differentiator, isn't it? The nice thing is that we've all got access to these tools. So we're all learning and none of us know quite yet where they're going to go. I don't think even the people that are making them quite know what's going to happen next. So it's a very frightening, exciting time. And we're just sort of going along with it, you know. But I think you're right. There comes a point where you start to look at things for, you know, the creative output from various studios and agencies and designers and you start to say, hang on a minute. What is that like?

10:11Katy Cowan:Is that AI? And is that, you know, you don't quite know there's there's a sort of broken trust, I think. Consumer point of view, I guess. What am I looking at? Even on Instagram, is this real? Yeah, sure. And that is another aspect I think will save the day. Yeah, I think we kind of, you know, think about AI and how we use it ethically in the right way to do certain things to, yeah, the way I think we think about it and probably many is that, you know, you have an idea and it helps you manifest that as opposed to I don't have an idea, you know, what should I do? It's the same as looking for influence for mood boards and so on.

10:52You can go in search of something. But I think it's better to generate something and then find things to help you illustrate that idea. So there is a difference there. But we are stepping into an environment where it's going to be a utility. It's like running water where we're going to be in an AI native environment. And that is arguably democratizing the superpower that everyone has. but it's how we use it. And as you say, there's challenges with what is real, what isn't, what has value. Like as an example, I went to a Japan house in Kensington this past week and it was 100 plus ceramicists from Japan and they all were making these just the most amazing, beautifully crafted cups and plates, some out of glass, some out of clay.

11:48Each was different. Each had a different style. And they approached it somewhat beautifully crafted and perfect. Others were a patchwork quilt of, you know, textures. And that's really inspiring because there's such great value in the making of something. And I think, you know, if everyone has the tools like they have, they have all the tools in front of them. They're all making different individual things that have an idea, a personality, a sense of, you know, a truth, a point of view. and that's a great example for where we need to get back to you know we have all these things so how do we get that and the same thing I went to a design museum on Sunday I'm going to a few things it's January it's that time of year where you you're packing the things but I went to the Wes Anderson archives I don't know if you've been to that again stunning because what I take from that apart from the amazing amount of work that it goes into making those things is that there's a worldview.

12:53And that worldview uses all sorts of things and collaborates with super talented people to make something extremely unique. So I think the power is going to be that is, you know, in the world of brands, that's what we try and do. But with the tools and the technology that we have, there's a danger, and I think we see it anyway, of a flattening of design, you know. So I'm interested in the elbows coming out and the spiky bits. And that's what we try and do you know we released our book remix which you saw that's one way of for us to test expression you know it's almost like a spontaneous misbehaved chaotic sort of energetic and immersive kind of expression of what we do and that's just a way to test the unruly part of creativity and I think that there's real excitement and opportunity there for for everyone really yeah when you say

13:51Katy Cowan:flattened what do you mean by that everything just starts to look the same yeah I think a little bit of that you know I'm amazed at how beautiful or crafted things can look with the tools that we have I don't I'm not taking anything away from from any creative here I think we use the same similar tools it's just that there's a danger that a couple of things happen one that we're in a world and we have been for for some time where everyone sees everything immediately. You know, it's out, it has a perfect sheen to it. There are mechanics, motion theories, you know, the way brands should appear. There is a playbook for that, you know, and there's recipes to get to a certain level.

14:38Because we see everything, it's very easy to be influenced by those things. And you go, wow, that's cool. Let's do that. Or that's cool. Let's do that. Whether it's trends or a style or, you know, someone did something really original and before you know it there's lots of me too versions of that um so i think we're fighting against that you know that there there isn't maybe enough time maybe this pre-internet and showing showing the age for things to germinate long enough that they have a real sort of weight behind them you know i grew up in a time where i was flicking through books by vaughn Oliver, you know, it's just very artistic and painterly.

15:20And it just so tactile, I was thinking about that today with some of the questions that you were asking. And those things germinate, and they have a real strong point of view. I think, you know, I go in search for those things. I'm also amazed, I've got to say, by how much amazing creativity there is in the world. You know, you jump onto Create Boom, you go onto any platform, I'm like, the mind is blown with the level of craft and quality. So I think there's no shortage of that. It's just where we point it. And I guess back to your question, the flattening is that there's a danger that we, everything starts to homogenize because either clients and brands like something and want that.

16:04We find that, you know, your portfolio suddenly becomes a playbook that others want to have. yeah or we see stuff that is cool and you know we want to try and emulate that and there's nothing wrong with it but you have to surpass that and find your own voice so and I think with the tools that we have the platforms that we have it exacerbates that because as I said it kind of creates the opportunity to create very similar things yeah it already it already builds on

16:36Katy Cowan:doesn't it? It builds on what's already there. Because it's human nature to sort of stick with what you feel comfortable with and play it safe. It's like if you go to Japan, if you go to Shibuya and look around on a sort of work evening and you just, all of the women pretty much are wearing those Burberry Macs. Well, they certainly were when I went 10 years ago. Because you play it safe, You know, you can't be bothered to like think about what to put on. And then what was the name of that photographer who basically took pictures of lots of different people wearing exactly the same outfits and then put them together on the website?

17:15Katy Cowan:And you just suddenly can't remember his name. Yeah, I know. Look, I think we're all geared towards that. But also, you know, our industry particularly is geared to try and find the original, the distinct, the different. And I think it's definitely there. You know, you look at the vast styles of photography or illustration or those types of things, but because there's so much and certainly a certain level, brands in sectors can start to look alike. Right. So when someone breaks out of that, it's it doesn't last for long. You know, so I think you have to keep inventing and keep making stuff and keep holding on to that weird part and keep the idiosyncrasy, which is where the exciting stuff happens.

18:01And it's done through, I think, all of this. You know, there's a scary part to AI and you could you could go into the existential crisis aspects of it. But there's also, I think, a positivity. It does require some change, you know, certainly for parts of the industry. And that is scary. But I think if you embrace it as a collaborator, then maybe that takes us somewhere interesting and new.

18:33Katy Cowan:yeah 100 we had a photographer and writer liz seabrook write an interesting piece for creative boom this week and it was about you know ai not being the problem uh lack of nuance is um lots of creatives very quick to dismiss it for various reasons but she's saying well actually you know these tools are going to be woven in to our workflow whether we like it or not you know they're just they're there it's this big revolution that's happening and um you know talking about like the lure of being able to you know remove a fault in a photograph that previously would have taken three hours you know there's surely something good in that i think i think you know we talk about kind of if this is if there's a triangle you know at the bottom is that the stuff that probably no one wants to do the commoditized stuff that is easy to replicate and maybe that's okay because the most valuable thing we have is time so if we can save time by not doing that then we kind of bump up a level and you know when you go off a level you start getting into systems of design and so on and I think there are platforms that will be able to create those with a prompt you know I'm starting a wellness business you know I need identity like this giving the tools and the modules I think that will happen you know shortly whether it's Canva Figma or something like that and but they are uh that's like a almost a templated world but then it means that we can move upwards into systems at scale that become harder to replicate.

20:19And I think it's really interesting when you kind of move upstream, you get into a couple of things. One is that businesses inside are messy and need a lot more than pure design to change. You know, it requires a belief in something. It requires advocacy from people and clients and stakeholders in that business. So there's a lot of kind of soft components to building, you know, some of the things that we do, which is kind of design and brand systems at scale. And I always think that's not necessarily going to go away. You know, just because you have an instant answer doesn't mean it's the right one.

20:56And, you know, you can't necessarily present a complete brand and have everyone buy it because you have to take everyone on a journey. But then if you go above that, there's this kind of thought space or strategic space where, you know, these original ideas can bloom. And that's an interesting space to be. if you're at the top of the triangle always like flipping it and saying well it opens out again so you kind of have this transcendent like levels where it's going to push everyone up to either be more original be more idiosyncratic be more you know there's going to be a premium on craft and handmade maybe and then you know what happens next is going to be really interesting

21:38Katy Cowan:yeah it's like the introduction of flat pack furniture wasn't it you know right whilst that's popular you're still always going to get a demand a market for something that's handcrafted and made beautifully by somebody that has you know decades of experience i think for me with creative beam it's always been a bit of a kind of struggle because on the one hand i love that this technology is opening up the world to so many creatives and making it easier more than ever before to run a business or scale up, as you say. But on the other hand, it is changing careers and jobs and causing a lot of disruption.

22:18Katy Cowan:And it's not even, it's only really just getting started. So it's having that kind of balance. Don't want to discount that. I think that's an absolute reality. And it's certainly shaping some of our decisions about how we approach things, what we want to do next, you know, what is the shape of, you know, our industry, if these systems can be made, you know, if If you need less people to do them internally inside a business, a creative team goes from, you know, X amount to a much smaller amount. There's a real world impact to that. But I think as in any revolution, you know, the world changes with it.

22:56So, you know, if you macro out, I think you can look at it quite positively and that there is this kind of very exciting, if a little bit unknown, you know, kind of world that we're stepping into. but yeah if you if you come down to an individual or a group of individuals i think you know it it makes people unsure and and that's not a great place to be so i think the way we see it is what can we control what are the things that we can do that we can make to do it our way on our terms and that is right we're going to seize this moment to reinvent ourselves we're going to seize this moment to make stuff.

23:37We're going to like reinvent our recipes. We're going to question stuff that maybe we haven't because we don't want to settle. I think if we do that with anything, having control and earning that back and taking it back for yourself is a critical part of this. So you can talk about the fear factor. But I think with anything in life, if you say, well, well, what can I do? I think that gives you a superpower. And that's how we see it. That's what we want to do. You know, what exciting things can we do because of this? How is it going to evolve and change the company so that we may not be the same as we were?

24:21You know, we see Dixon-Vaxie as an idea and we've got lots of ideas. It's a space for creativity. At the moment, you know, we focus on these brands at scale. It doesn't just have to be that. And I think there's just so much opportunity to take those choices. And in the way that we work with our clients, we explore different futures. And because they're in a room, you don't have to do them. But you can have fun going, well, what about this? How about that? And I think, you know, if there was something I'd share with folks is to try that, is to create different futures and see how in which one fits, which one's exciting.

24:59Even if you don't do them, it gives you an element of optionality, which is very empowering.

25:08Katy Cowan:Today's episode is sponsored by Adobe, headline sponsor of the Bionic Awards. Here's what co-founder Alex Pell had to say about the entries and winners following its inaugural year. We acknowledge that AI isn't necessarily for every creative professional. but what we're saying at Bionic Awards is for people who do want to experiment with these tools who do recognize that times are changing and who do maybe want to see themselves moving into a different career trajectory to be able to experiment with film or animation that they may not have necessarily done before though what we want to do is to give them these opportunities to be able to let people bring that sense of craft and intentionality in their storytelling into a different era, into a different type of workflow and to be able to, more than anything, be recognised for their incredible skills and to bring them physically together to be able to meet like-minded people, to be able to showcase their array of talent and, more than anything, to be able to find opportunities to work and to be able to continue to feed their families.

26:10And that is ultimately what Bionic Awards is about.