#75 – Patrick Tomasso – Finding Yourself as a Creator

0:00In a previous life, I was an editor with some other creators. And even we got to a point where the thing became in that space, especially where this guy had a reaction channel, everyone started offloading their editing overseas to Europe. So it's like if you're in London, you could record a video, go to sleep, and they were working all day. So the time zone actually became such an advantage because you weren't actually sitting there thinking, oh, I got to wait till tomorrow for this video. it's like no no i'm going to bed now and when i wake up in the morning this thing's gonna be ready to go right and so like that the time zone advantage actually became a great thing for revisions and stuff like that because it was always you know it kind of always felt immediate even though you're because you're on opposite ends yeah um which is something i've considered too but like like you said though it's like those little things where you're just like if i was just had this edit right here in this timeline i could just do this and then i'm like well if i'm just doing it why am i paying someone to do this and so you feel like you got to get them to do it and it's like i don't know there's like there's there's some stuff i would love to offload at some point but like right now i think i have a pretty decent process where i can control it all i know my own pace and my own speed for sure it's fine it's not it's not like at the end of the world where like i don't know i don't i don't really know if i my output would increase all that much more if i had an editor and that's the other thing too it's like what's what's it really going to change for me right yeah i don't know if i'm gonna do more right um and so at this point i'm like i'll do this until i feel like i'm drowned i'm really drowning and then it's like okay yeah i do want to scale this up and i want to do a lot more output of content yeah whereas like i have this whole theory with content right now too it's just like obviously quality over over quantity but i i have enough data now to show that you can really take a long time with things and take breaks from these platforms and you're not penalized right so it's like i do feel like i don't want to just start spraying stuff out there and oversaturate myself too much just because everyone says you have to like there's a lot of like people that are just like post three times a day on instagram you're like you want me to make three reels a day on are you yeah like what are we talking do you believe in this sort of like um personality fatigue have you ever heard of that where you see somebody too much and you're like okay i'm kind of sick of this person now absolutely i mean it's happened with like someone like pedro pascal right where it's like it happens with actors where you're like wait a second so he's he's on the he's in the new fantastic four movie he was just in the last of us he's got three other movies going now you go okay yeah he's in the material he's a materialist too you kind of go like is there any other actors in the world like or is it just like and he's amazing he's talented but at a certain point you're like i'd like to see something else like i want something a little different i do find that with social media too where like some a lot of the creators that i watch a lot of my favorite like youtubers stuff like that maybe post three four times a year you know and it's like that to me is like much more impactful and i think you have more potential of longevity too yeah where you're just making really really great things when you want to make them you're intentionally crafting them as opposed to just like like i i do a lot of things where i'm like i'm on instagram and i'll look at like a video will hit my feed and i'll just like hit their profile and i'll see 30 40 videos that have a thousand views and then one video that has you know a million and then it's another 10 15 videos that have a thousand views and it's another video that has 500 000 in my opinion i'm always just like what was the real benefit of those six or seven or ten thousand view videos why not just wait until you feel like you have a really good hook and a really good piece to speak about and something that's you are truly passionate about wait for that thing rather than every single day being like i just got to be out there or i'll become irrelevant right that i don't i don't subscribe to that like i said i just have too much data now and experience at this where i know that i can take a week i can take a month i can take you know my main channel i waited like nine months between videos and it wasn't like youtube was like this guy doesn't exist anymore right we're not sending this video to anybody then the second video i followed up with got like 200 ,000 views.

3:40So as long as it's a good thing, you're making a good piece of work and art or whatever you want to call it. The frequency thing to me is just something I just don't subscribe to. I mean, I'd love to be proven wrong, but like I, speaking from my own anecdotal experience, it just hasn't, I don't feel like, I don't feel the need to just be there for the sake of being there. You know what I mean? This might be like a two-part question, but do you think that that sort of mentality and ideology of not having to maybe post all the time or be present 24 seven, Do you think that's changed over time? And the second part is, do you think it is really dependent on the sort of initial base following that you have?

4:17Like if you're just starting out, does that same theory apply? Or do you think that having some quality, but posting more is more beneficial? So that like two part question there. I think that you can come out of nowhere now with an absolute banger on any platform and kind of have an overnight, I'm here now. This is who I am. and ride that wave moving forward. I think it's important to have quality and do good things. And I also think it's important to experiment and throw stuff at the wall. And so as much as I say that like, yeah, bangers only, basically, I'm still experimenting with bangers only.

4:52You know what I mean? I'm not trying to recreate the same success over and over again. Yes, I realize that like certain formats and the way that I set up a video becomes like a theme and a format. But in my head, I'm always just like, what can I do here to muck this up a little bit? And because I get really bored. like i think all of my my experiments with the internet come from my own boredom of being like you know like i'll be transparent like right now with reels like that's it worked right i figured it out i did really well they do fantastic they do fantastic and so like the last two four months i'm like okay this is really working but then now that i've cracked it i'm bored of it right and so it's like in my head now i find this the most exciting point where it's like once i figure something out and it's like this is working really well i get into this mode now where i'm like okay what's next and the what's next is now that i know that this works i have this at all times now this this is a format that'll work for now and i'm sure it'll burn out at a certain point but i don't want it to burn out i want to already be on to the next thing before this burns out so right now i'm in this mode of like this in between of experimenting with what i know is sort of format working but also how do i change this up how do i change how i'm editing these videos what are my topics going to be and that is the now the frequency is going to come from experimenting and I think it's okay to experiment in public like I don't want someone to say like oh I shouldn't make my video until I think it's perfect that that's not something I've subscribed to yes throw things out there let like just throw shit at the wall and see what sticks but don't just make for like the real the real thing is don't make just for the sake of making making things that you're extremely proud of and passionate about and even if they don't work well just keep doing that thing because for me it's like for a long like I'm I'm old in like Instagram reels age okay so it's like you know what I mean?

6:30It's like, I've been on Instagram since the fucking app came out, right? And so it's only in the last, I would say four or five months that I feel like I've cracked this new version of Instagram. Like I was pretty good at it when it was just photos and stuff like that. But this new version of Instagram, which has been around for, you know, nine, nine years, something like that, like obviously before pandemic, it's a long time. This whole, for sure. It's a long time. And I was sort of rejecting it being like, that's not me. I don't make short form videos. Like I don't have the brain for this. Same way.

6:57Right. Same way. This is a Gen Z thing. I don't have the strategy for this. I just don't have the cadence for it. I don't know how to speak about it. Like, I just, I rejected it. And I think that came from my own insecurity more than anything practical. You know, it was more like, I don't want to do what everyone else is doing. So then it sucks, right? Which is something you can get into where you're like, I don't even know why that does well. And you reject it and then you start to resent it. And then what I realized was just like, look, I already know that people like what I have to say, at least on YouTube, okay?

7:25So it's like, why is it any different for me to do what I do there here. And that was the first sort of inclination I had towards it. Let me pause real quick. Did you find that there was a sort of mental separation between the type of content that you were making on Instagram versus YouTube? Did you feel that there were two distinct personalities that you sort of had to produce? Yeah, I don't even know if it's personalities. I just thought it was like, I get really in the weeds on things, right? Where it's like, I'm kind of ranting and I'm riffing. And through the process of that, the length increases.

7:55right so i like to sit like i always felt like my meal ticket was my ability to just sit down like we're doing right now just to riff and talk and get into something that i'm passionate about and just record that and then right and so i felt like how the hell do i do that in 60 seconds like how do i how do i get this whole like brain dump into such a short little thing and what i realized was like why don't i just write my brain dumps out like write them out and then look at it and go okay what's the actual core of all this fluff that i'm saying like what's the real meat of this little piece that I'm trying to get around.

8:27And for lack of a better word, it's just dumbing it down and simplifying it down into the most bite-sized, quick thing. Where I go, one of my guiding forces right now with Instagram Reels is like, will only other camera people or techie people or cinema or film people find this interesting? Or will my mom find this interesting? And I want my mom to find this video interesting. And that's my thing with Reels, where it's like, I want it to be the most broad and accessible version of a very nerdy film guy thing right so that so that i know that like you and i might watch that video and go like i know this shit i know why we use practical lights and like we we know this stuff but like a lot of people don't know this stuff and i want to educate people in a way that's accessible and really easy to digest and that's what i realized where it's like if i make it a 20 minute or 15 minute or 10 minute even video essay there's a lot of that you can get into the weeds on a lot of different things but there is really a core theme to those videos that couldn't can be really condensed to a thesis that is super easy to digest in 60 seconds and that's what i've realized and it came from writing out my scripts more than just riffing and now like i literally have one here from my last one like i have it uh right still clipped here and what i do is i have my written script and now what i do is i i reference it and i'll riff a little bit and i'm like i'm going in the weeds like what what did i really want to say here and i'll look at my script i'm like okay that's that's the key to it let me get that sentence down and it's like i said it's like really just like finding the most simple dumbed down and dumb isn't even the right word it's just the really the most simplest easy to access version of a complicated concept so that my mom will enjoy it and when i feel like that because she's just so outside of what we know technically when it comes to movies and stuff like that and this is like not to get in the weeds on youtube stuff is like i came from like the tech and i came from the tech and youtube world of like reviewing cameras like that's how i got into this like i was i was playing with gear you know in the pandemic obviously like when all my my dp work i think your first video i saw was was it nine years ago when i looked your first started youtube i believe yeah yeah i mean i've been playing with cameras since i was a kid obviously and i think youtube has always been on my mind as long as youtube's been around like i i remember obviously before youtube i remember like google video and stuff like that like youtube's always been part of my life in a sense of like it's been there hovering being like i would like to do that at some point i worked in advertising for a while and i worked at an agency and i was doing a whole bunch of stuff i was like doing branded content work as the brands rather than than myself and so when the pandemic happened and then like all my work kind of dried up i was like well i know how to do this for stellar artois i've done this for honda and i've done this for taco bell like why don't i do this for me like i'll just be the brand right and my strategy brain kicked in during that period where i was like well look a lot of people are having the same problem that i'm having where it's like, we got to make content.

11:11We got to make things. I got to make money throughout all of this. Like, what am I supposed to do? And I have cameras. I know how to do it. So it's like, but maybe some other people don't know how to do it. And so a lot of my work throughout that period was, here's how to shoot food videos at home. Here's how to start a podcast, right? Here's the camera you should buy. Here's the computer you should buy. Here's the laptop, whatever. And it became a lot of how-to tutorials about making content for creators. And I think there was a real strong bubble in that period of time of like content creation, obviously, because we're all at home doing nothing.

11:38that was like the that was like the perfect time basically yeah 100 and so it was it was right talent and right timing and like i was saying before when something starts to work i start to get bored and i think that was another right time thing where like the pandemic was winding down work was starting to pick up again and i was like okay well like i'm making money now shooting for for brands and stuff again but like what am i going to do with youtube because i don't want to and i don't want to talk to creators this is the big thing and this is what this goes back to the whole thing where like why i want to make videos for my mom i realized there is a ceiling on people that want to make videos okay and it's it's actually that ceiling i feel like is shrinking and shrinking because phones have gotten so good and like the the the ability to just grab something and make a video has never been easier sure and so even and even the the amount of people that are willing to spend money on like a setup like this is also getting smaller because our acceptance of quality has has changed you know like it's okay to just shoot on your phone and it's a self selfie video.

12:32So why am I, there was a point where I realized it was like, there's a new camera coming out every three, four months. I can't keep saying everything is good. Now this one just does this thing maybe a little bit better than the last one. And I saw the views starting to cap up where it's like a really good camera video. If you're lucky is two, 300 ,000 views, like a half a million view video on something gear related now is like unheard of. And I was like, well, why am I only talking to people that want to make movies? What if I just talk to people that want to watch movies? and it was such a simple switch for me and what happened was the the batman had come out yes and i was like i was going to talk to you about that that was the first one that i saw on your channel being that sort of transition period i think that was three years ago when you posted that i believe it was yeah i mean it was like literally the weekend that came out i watched that video and i had dabbled to go before the batman i dabbled a little bit of like starting to pepper in concepts of a video essay in my tech review so i would do a lens review and i'd be like okay but this is like why shallow depth of field isn't actually cinematic and i would do movie examples and stuff like that to talk about like a 50 mil f1.2 lens right yeah and i started peppering in like elements of a video essay in camera reviews and gear stuff before the batman thing happened and then i made one video that was all about lamps i was like why are lamps so why why do filmmakers love lamps so much and it was sort of a tongue-in-cheek jokey video essay of just like it's kind of insane how many lamps are in a lot of movies especially throughout the 90s and i use like Eyes Wide Shut and like a bunch of Steven Spielberg examples and that video did relatively well it was like 40-50 ,000 views I was like you know there's something here and it let me stretch a muscle I hadn't done before which was like a voiceover video essay never on camera just like really like a documentary style edit with a voiceover fully scripted fully written out like and it took me like it's one of the longer videos I'd ever worked on in terms of like time I was like I'm gonna spend like a month just on this one video whereas previous I'd always I'm the type of guy that's just like oh I got a video this dude for a sponsor on Friday let me do it thursday morning right like that's that's just like how my brain works so before we dive into this video essay thing i want to just take it back a little bit to when you were kind of making those youtube videos with the gear and everything during that time were you receiving sponsorships in that time i was yeah like i was lucky i was like i was lucky that i mean again luck is preparation and talent like for sure opportunity you know what i mean like for me i i felt like i had a lot of for people that don't know this about me it's like it's not like i came out of nowhere with like content creation like i said i worked in advertising for a while so i had a lot of like experience working with big brands like i i literally created stellar artois instagram account like i signed up for it with the email and built that instagram like from the beginning the global instagram account like i had worked on the internet for a while before i worked on the internet as myself and so i did it might seem like i came out of nowhere and it was like i was already good at it like right from the beginning but i had so much experimentation that i had been doing with with on other people's dime like for other people's accounts and brands and stuff so that when i started making videos it was a rapid kind of quick success but that's because people didn't see the 10 years before that of me experimenting and trying things of me building yeah and so because things did really well pretty early on like you know this when things start popping in video like views start doing well like you just your inbox just started getting flooded with with companies and i was someone who had yeah i was someone who had bought all my stuff and i had i had a pretty like strong i don't know what the word is for this like my my morals around like gear at that time were very much like i want to buy my own thing you weren't willing to compromise necessarily no and it was like something i'm still navigating to be fair i'm still navigating this part of myself with with like how i work with companies and brands especially in the tech the tech space yeah but at the time and still to this day like i i don't want to be paid off for my opinion especially now with movies like that's that's my meal ticket and i feel like i feel like with this little thing my audience is everything i cannot lose my audience brands will come and go if i gotta burn a bridge or if it's not going to work out even if it's a lot of money i can't jeopardize my relationship with my audience and so if 824 is like hey man we'll give you 15 grand to talk about marty supreme if i don't like marty supreme i cannot take that money right okay because like once once i'm paid for and once you see that like someone paid for my opinion about something i arguably feel like all my opinions become a little bit more invalid because well if that's with anything though any light any camera anything in general and i think i've i've struggled with this a lot since i've started youtube and ha and i've struggled with this watching people on youtube that i once really enjoyed that i slowly started to notice that their channel became this sort of hub for ads and like products that was it it's like the new shopping channel yeah it really is and i i struggle with that especially when people ask me about how to build a brand and they're like well you know i need to i want to make money so how do i reach out to brands it's like well i get that brands make money but i don't think that is necessarily how you should go into creating something for yourself you know no no no and like that and to answer your question like with with that whole early period where i like as much as i knew content creation and i knew how to make an engaging video and i knew how to sell things and whatnot it was a new thing for me to navigate working with the brands because I started to notice that like they wanted certain things from me that was not what made me successful and so I've learned over time now to have to properly set expectations about what I do what I know you need to understand how I work you need to understand my timelines you understand what I want to talk about how I'm going to title this video that is something I've sort of built over time with these relationships with these brands that like look now I work with Apple I work with Sony I've worked with Ari I've worked with red like i've worked with all these nikon like all these amazing companies but they know what i do now it was never like that early on and there were some brands that i don't work with anymore and there's even certain camera brands that i won't work with anymore because they didn't understand it and which is totally you try totally okay exactly and i've always said too like these brands don't owe you anything they're at the end of the day they are trying to market their product they're not trying to market you so ultimately if you're not willing to fully sell their thing like there is no reason for them to want to have to work with you there's a thousand million other creators i was just about to say especially because of the influx of creators that are so willing to say yes to whatever they're about to offer a hundred percent a hundred percent and so what i've always said is like get so big and do so well that they can't ignore you right like do do your own thing in your own lane in your own way speak your mind have conviction about your your opinions don't be this like broad vanilla beige person that's just like everything right like everything is wearing a beige sweatshirt yeah yeah yeah exactly like like like for me like if anything what i respect in a creator if they're right or wrong like just just believe in the thing that you're saying you know like because i i think myself and you you even touched on just recently it's like all everyone can really see through the the the mud now like through the bullshit of all of this and they know when something is sponsored and it's something you're not fully into so why even why bother trying to trick people anymore the audience has gotten too smart and too like jaded to an extent and they're they know too much about how the the influencer world works at this point where that like maybe goldilocks era where we could kind of get away with more stuff of being like this is like the best thing i've ever used and and people actually believed you i feel like that's that's over and so like why even try anymore and so i know it might sound like, well, not some might, some creators might listen to this and be like, well, how the hell do I make money now?

20:00It's like, look, I'm doing, I'm doing quite well at what I do. Some might say I'm like spicy and stuff like that. And I'm not the most like brand friendly creator out there, but they respect what I do. And I never come out with things maliciously. Like everything is coming from an objective place or a subjective place for me that I truly believe for the way that I do things. And obviously there's a lot of people out there that relate and agree with that. Right. And so if the brand wants to ignore that and pretend that that's not a thing, that's a mistake on their part and the smart brands continue to work with me because they know i'm not maliciously being like apple sucks just for the sake of it right apple will give me a new laptop and give me a new phone every year and i'll still say things that they're doing are not great right and then they'll realize that like oh other people start to understand that that is maybe a thing we should work on at some point and it's better to have patrick on our side or whatever you want to call it than to be enemies for for some stupid reason that that that pettiness between a brand and a creator doesn't make any sense to me even from from our end like i've seen a lot of influencers complain that like they didn't get invited to an event or they weren't seeded the new product early and you're like again they don't owe you anything like they really do not owe you anything and if there was something you did that that was maybe just on their on their wavelength or whatever it was like you can't get in your head about it just move on and do your own thing and get to the point where it's like actually you know what maybe we should give him that thing this time because like obviously he's got a huge audience that's interested in this niche or this topic or whatever and if they never give you anything ever again it doesn't matter because there's also a million other brands that you can work out there too that will find once you have an audience like that's the key thing it's like audience is everything get the views you'll be fine i think it's like i think it's it's like two-part i think it's not just the audience in terms of numbers which is a huge thing but i think it's the quality of the audience that you have within it absolutely that is even more important to be honest absolutely and that's a good point because i have two channels now right so i have the second channel which is still a little bit more tech creator gear focus because like we were talking about i didn't because i built my channel with all these brands on my back where it's like sony and panasonic and all these guys that just like still wanted to give me trips and go on opportunities which i didn't want to i didn't want to really cut that off but i had to start saying no like when i made that batman video it was right around when the new imac had come out like the m1 imac and the mac studio and stuff like that and i liked covering Apple products.

22:16I still do some here and there. I liked covering that kind of stuff. And I still had the muscle for it and the energy for it at that time too. So I was like, I made that Batman video. Greg Fraser shares it. It gets a million views like in like two days. Like it's just really ripping. But that's the same week that those, those new Apple products are coming out. And I was like, man, I can't follow up this Batman video with like the M1 iMac. Like why? Like in my head, maybe it wouldn't have mattered. And in hindsight, it's 2020. Maybe it wouldn't have made a difference, But in my head, just like aesthetically and stylistically as a creator, it just didn't feel like the right thing to do at that moment in time.

22:49And so I said to myself, like, look, I don't want to lose this side of me or even this audience that likes this kind of content from me, even though I found this whole new, much bigger audience with movies. I want to keep this little core that's been moving with the start, like because they like my takes on equipment and all that kind of stuff. So I was like, look, I'm going to start another channel, which sounds crazy to go from scratch, essentially, like literally from zero. And I made a video. There has to be something a little exciting about that, though. I feel like there's always something exciting about starting something fresh.

23:18For sure. And it also let me approach those types of videos in a new way. Because I was like, well, now I kind of have nothing to lose here. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. It's almost like going to a new high school. You can be whoever you want to be. Absolutely. And so I use it as a creative exercise. Like, yeah, I'll light these a little differently. Everything I learned from the video essay stuff, I can start to apply to these tech videos and stuff, too. and so on that second channel i made like an m1 iMac video and it was also again like right timing because like timing is a big thing with all this stuff that like obviously the conversation was peaking on the on the m1 stuff at the time and i i kind of launched that second channel on the back of m1 and the new apple chips right so right timing again but to your point i do now find you know now we're three four years away from that that second channel starting approaching like 40 000 subs on it videos are doing really well there it's become like a really good like photography exercise channel for me where it's like this is a little bit more in the weeds of like my my work not other people's work right like the stuff that i do and i do find that i'm actually it's easier to get rates from brands on sponsors now on that channel than it is on the main channel which seems crazy because the views are like astronomically higher on the main channel but i have such a much more engaged buying audience right on that second channel right where if i'm talking about a camera or a lens or a service or it's a music thing or something like that like those creators click and they're actually doing things whereas i find on the main channel a lot of people are more passive and they're just watching things and learning and ingesting but they're not intentionally going like oh yeah greg fraser shot on the alexa lf and i need to go buy signature primes like that's not that's not happening they're just like oh now i understand my taste and why i like this thing and this guy helped me explain why i like the way this thing looks let me go find more things that are made in this certain way whereas on the second channel i can legitimately say hey these lenses are really cool here's what you can make with them and here's where you get them and they go well patrick's also that guy that talks about movies and his taste and that is really similar to my taste and what i like and if he says this thing's really cool and he likes that thing i'm very likely to like this thing too and even though we're a smaller group of people in that crossover section we act on things right and so i've found that like that second channel has been a really good like revenue stream for me in terms of like still activating that creator audience which is still important i just find it a lot smaller than the broader audience that I have on the main channel.

25:34Main channel for me has been about opportunities and experiences and connections with an industry that I always looked up to and idolized growing up as a kid and speaking to people that I never thought I'd even share a sentence with in an email. Oh, I want to get into one specific interview you had a little bit later. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And the second channel has been about community and working with creators and working with brands and companies. and there's even now a little bit more crossover that's happening between the main channel and second channel it's like so i like these longer podcast type things where i'm doing with like dps and stuff i'm like that second channel still for me feels like the place for that because it's it's in the weeds a little bit more on the tech and the and the and the actual process of it rather than the broader like my mom likes the videos on the main channel you and i might like the second channel for sure and a lot of people that come up to me at like conventions and stuff like that are always like dude i love the second channel so much i'm like yeah so do i it's a different audience though it's just a different it's like a different muscle it's a different brain it's a different reach um but as a revenue stream i i i suggest this to any creator it's like if you are trying to find your thing and you're bored of the thing that you're doing start another channel start a new instagram account like just just you literally have nothing to lose and if you're upset or bored with what you're doing and you don't want to feel like you might risk this thing that you've built start another channel just just for fun even if it doesn't work.

26:55It doesn't matter. No one saw it anyways. Do you feel like people, maybe myself included potentially, but do you feel like people sometimes feel that they can't switch up what they're doing because they've been doing something for so long and they've built this sort of foundation based on this thing? And even though they might not find that enjoyment or fulfillment anymore, they have an obligation to continue to do that. And if they switch it, they're going to lose everything absolutely but i think it's it's it's all in our head i don't think that's true at all like there's still niches that i haven't explored yet that i want to like i would love to talk about cars and stuff like that at some point i have a food tiktok account that i that i grew over the last couple years we're like reviewing food at restaurants and stuff like that and that did really really well and i got to a point where i was like i'm kind of bored of that i'll let that that settle and like that can come back at some point but it's like i find this is a weird analogy but if you've ever seen the Martha Stewart doc on Netflix, it's really interesting because that is, she had this idea of like this like omni marketing presence where it's like Martha's at the center of it all.

27:58But then there's like home and garden, there's food, there's pop cultures, there's interviews with Snoop Dogg. There's all these things that sort of stretch out with like Martha Stewart at the center of it all. Exactly. And I feel like more than anything else, these platforms are personality based. You are why people, you have to make sure that you are the reason why people are watching the things that you make not the things you are talking about that's secondary so i don't know if you ever watched like donut donut media like james humphreys from donut media was is a really so donut media is like this amazing it was it still is it's a massive car like personality channel where they kind of like reinvented what top gear could kind of be like on youtube but it's a bunch of guys kind of like linus tech tips for cars if that makes sense where it's like a bunch of personalities that have their own little shows on this overarching network called donut media so James Humphries was like this main guy that worked on it.

28:46He went off and now did his own thing called, I think it's called Speed, like with like three E's. And you thought he was just going to talk about cars. And actually when he started out, he was talking about cars because that was like the crossover from his donut stuff. But now he's talking about weight loss stuff. He's talking about like the history of GQ. He'll talk about all these various things because it's James that I'm interested in. It's that guy that I want to see. Not specifically the topic. I like his take on things. And that for me is what I think a lot of creators miss. they think they only want to see you for sony fx3 videos they think they only want to see you for leica videos right but i think you need to get to a point where you're like well hey i'm i'm a person that has multifaceted i i contain all these different things that i'm interested in why not make a video about that that car that you bought you know in your in high school or whatever it is that you're into the movie you just watched that you seem to really like well make a little quick little video about it because now you're sharing your personality a little bit more and you're sharing who you are as a person and that's where you really like lock into a community that like really loves you for you and you get into your head with formats you get into your head with style you get into this thing where like oh if i if i change this everything might end like this whole thing might disappear but you and i both know one video two video three bomb videos does not end your life okay like your career doesn't disappear nothing really happens you know why because no one saw the thing anyways there's no one there really judging you're changing in 30 seconds.

30:10It's gone. It's gone. It's so like, it's so disposable. And I know it sounds sad because it's like, we all want to make art and all this stuff. Like, but a lot of this is so disposable that you cannot think of everything on this pedestal, especially yourself and your own ego as a creator. You can talk about whatever you want. You make videos about whatever you want on any channel. I know that it deep down, I could probably do all the second channel stuff on the main channel thing, but as a personality and the way that I work, it helps me to segment them. I create better things segmented apart because I feel like that's this version of what I do.

30:42That's this channel. That's what I do here. It just helps me from a process standpoint. I don't think it really has anything to do with algorithm or the way the audience behaves or like that. It's just the way that I make. And that's why I've crafted it out. But to any creator out there, especially if you're starting out, you don't have a niche yet. You don't have a thing. You don't have like a lane. If one video pops off, gets a million views, it's actually odds are you're not gonna be able to replicate that success ever again anyways so you might as well change it up and do something different and try new things and for a while you'll find a style that's working but like we've been talking about like styles fade and especially on on instagram and in reels and youtube aesthetics change the way the audience like the way we title things the way we do thumbnails the formats of a video the the the core of all that stuff is always in a ebb and flow of trends right yeah i still think at the core of all internet personality stuff the key is if you can just sit down like we are right now and talk to an audience with no no spiciness no no added flair no whatever and still engage people you will be fine that is like the longevity of a creator now it's because you've built a connection with your audience and they like what you have to say but it should be enough that you can just sit down at a desk like i always think of like Marquez's example, like MKBHD, for how big he's got, the biggest tech creator in the world, arguably, right?

32:00To this day, there is still not a massive difference between his little bedroom videos when he was a teenager and his videos now. Yes, they have cool intros and they're shot on a red, but at the core of it, it's still Marquez sitting in a chair in an office talking to the camera with a little bit nicer B-roll and some nicer titles here and there. But that's not why the videos do so well right it's still just because of him he could sit there with an iphone now probably holding the damn camera like he does on the autofocus channel which also does incredibly well that is the key the key is marquez as a human as a person whereas a lot of creators will look at mkbhg and i see it everywhere it's like well if i get that same aperture 120d and i have that same key light and maybe i'll get the same lens right i'll be just successful missing the point they're totally missing the point totally missing the point um the core of it again is just it's like your personality and and to get to that point you need to get out of your head like we were just saying you don't have to only talk about one thing you don't have to be stuck in your niche if you're upset and bored i'm sure the audience can feel that right they can feel that in the things that you're making so you might as well if you're gonna fail fail doing something you enjoy and i guarantee you'll probably find success doing it i've i've since i've started my youtube channel a couple years ago i i don't think i've ever been able to answer like who who am i on YouTube?

33:15What do I do? Like, what is my channel about really? Because I feel like I've never really felt confident in what I wanted to create on a sort of, I don't think repetitious basis is the right word, but I feel like I've always tried to find what I wanted to create based on how I'm developing as a person throughout time. And I've struggled with understanding the value of do I create videos with the mindset of, okay, I want to grow this channel, so I should really consider and think about trends and maybe make a video about this. But is that truly what I want to do? Is that at my heart? And there have been some videos that I've done that and it's helped me grow.

33:59But the more that I've developed as a human and have done YouTube more and more and just grown in my personal life, over the last couple years, maybe the past two years, the The videos that I find most enjoyment in and fulfillment are the ones that get not much in sort of, they're not sponsorship worthy videos. They're not videos that are going to get 500 ,000 views, but it's literally me sitting in front of a camera, no B-roll, and talking about something I went through. A problem that I had on a commercial or something I'm working on within my personality. And I've found that over time, in the beginning, that was a little bit of a rough stage because I had to get super vulnerable with myself and be able to publicly share all of those things with people.

34:43And in the beginning, it didn't maybe click with a lot of people. People didn't understand it because they were seeing a lot of the more traditional filmmaking stuff that I was doing at that time. And I just kept with it because it was almost like a therapy session for me creating those videos. I felt really good getting out. So over time, as I've started to do those more, they've helped me personally in a lot of things that I've done. And I've noticed that people have started to resonate with a lot of those type of videos more because it starts to hit like a chord within them that kind of makes me, I don't want to say relatable, because sometimes you watch people on YouTube and you're like, that person is so far distant from who I am as a person because you just see them in a screen.

35:24But because of the stuff that I was actually talking about and being truthful and honest, I think it created this sort of like open door where they were able to see me as a person and I could understand them as a person. And again, even though they don't do 500 ,000 views or whatever, I think the quality of my audience has gotten stronger and has understood what I'm trying to get after on YouTube or what my message is trying to be. And I think I've slowly started to transition that over into my Instagram because I definitely had two personalities, YouTube and Instagram. Instagram was very strict.

36:01This is my cinematography portfolio. There's nothing else that can go on this at all. That's what I believed for a really long time because that's what I saw a lot of other cinematographers doing. It's like, okay, you only have to post stills in your work and that's all you could post. But I've had some friends that helped me kind of get out of that mindset. And now I want to start sharing more about fitness and wellness and things that I'm truly passionate about. And to be honest, something that I do a lot and people love, I share a lot about my lawn, cutting my lawn, the fertilizer, all that stuff that I do.

36:33It's amazing. And I can truthfully say that I haven't noticed a decline in my work, but I've noticed an increase in the amount of people that feel like they're connected with me because they're watching what I feel passionate about. passion is infectious man no no it's great because it's like i think if i could reverse engineer the let's just talk about the instagram success specific because i think most people are a lot interested in that because like i said i'm i'm late to the game a little bit to find what i do there but really it's like finding the vector point of what you enjoy and what does well and i know that seems simplistic but the enjoyment thing was the key i had to enjoy the videos that I was making for them to do well.

37:16Because I've enjoyed, sorry, I've had videos do incredibly well that I did not enjoy making. And I can't repeat that over time because it just eats at me. I'm like, yeah, this is a quick, easy win. I know this will get half a million views or whatever it is, but I feel like shit the entire time that I'm doing. I don't even really care that it did well. It's so vapid and disposable anyways. And a million other people have made videos about the same thing too. What did I, what did I grow here? What did I learn? It doesn't make any difference i would rather come at everything we're like even now where it's like look every day there's some new thing coming out about movies there's new things coming about tech and all this stuff i could make videos all day till i'm blue in the face about all this shit but i have to wait for something till it's like yeah that clicks with me i have an angle on this a perspective this i find interesting then i know when i sit down at the camera you will be able to tell oh shit he's actually into this thing and whether whether or not you think it's fake or it's real There's something I think psychologically that I know that when I'm happy and I'm having a good time, the videos do better.

38:17They just do better. I don't know. Like it's something in me comes out in the way that I speak and the way that I'm on camera that just like that that passion is infectious. And even if it's a smaller amount of people, I agree with you that I think it just has a much stronger impact with people and a much stronger. You form a much stronger base. Yeah. And, you know, if I could think about it like out loud, it's like there's a part of me that still thinks like, you know, the 20, 30K sub channel that, you know, does 10, 15 ,000 views of it or something like that is maybe the sweet spot for a creator these days.

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39:21So head over to ChivaCollective.com. That's ChivaCollective.com and join today. I look forward to welcoming you to this community. I feel like I'm in the sweet spot right now. And I haven't really like exponentially grown in a really long time. I'm right now at 56 ,000, I think I am. And I think my most videos average between 8 and 20 ,000 views. And I think for me, I don't need a million subs. Like, I don't think that's who I'm trying to become. I think where I'm at is like, I feel really grateful for like this sort of pocket that I'm in right now. And then I'm sort of developing deeper. It's not like I'm building or developing outwardly more.

40:05I think I'm just trying to dig deeper inward of that. Absolutely. No, I love that. Because I think if you're chasing the YouTube plaque, if you're chasing this like Mr. Beast thing or something like that, you start making decisions that aren't about your well-being. They're about chasing an algorithm and hacking a format and retention analytics. And if I need to make sure the first three seconds are this and that, like, sure, strategy is important. Only if you enjoy it. Like, there's a part of the internet that I do enjoy in terms of like cracking formats and formulas. Like, I get enjoyment from that.

40:35If I didn't get enjoyment from that, I wouldn't be doing it, you know? And I think it's smart to look at yourself and go, what was the benefit of having a million subscribers? Like, what am I trying to do here? What do I really want to do with all of this? sometimes you don't even know like like there's a lot of times where i'm like i'm sitting down with like dps and all this stuff and i'm getting invited to all these things i'm just like you know but still deep down like what i want to do is i want someone else making the videos that i'm making about my work right like i want to make movies i want i want to be on the other flip on the flip side of this and like there's a weird thing happening right now where like everyone on most a lot of people that work in traditional media want to do what we do and a lot of people that are in what we do is always greener is the grass is always greener yeah it's crazy and as as I get more connected and intertwined with the traditional side of things I realize like what we have is really special and and important and the thing that I've started to approach like specifically the movie side of things now is like I want to feel like another crew member on a film because now for movies to get watched they need folks like myself and other creators to help spread the word about the stuff that's out there and speak to the people that are making these things and become the new sort of like special features and extras that used to come on dvds and whatnot we are now part of this like film crew community that we're all equal like we're just as important as the production assistant and the gaffer and stuff like that that worked on this movie because if no one watches it what was the point of making this same thing with podcasts when all the dps go on all the five ten different pod cinematography podcasts yeah yeah and like that to me now is like again you don't have to have the biggest audience for that you don't and i've noticed now and i and i when i work with other creators and i at these events there's still a lot of creators there that are in that like like you said that sweet spot of like 10 20k really really well engaged audience with them that activate they do the things that that creator is saying and wanting them to do they move like they make they have movement whereas when you're at that like million subs and you get all this stuff it's like sure you're getting a whole lot of views but it's it's i find like a lot of is a lot more passive like it's a lot more just like casual browsers that are just like sitting there watching something in the background or whatever it is whereas i think it's a lot easier to have a real connection with people in a smaller it's it's it's it's no different than a madison square garden concert and a small pub acoustic set you know what i mean like which one has more of a feeling for you when you're in that room it's when if you know whoever it is you're going to see if it's uh john mayer on on a bar stool on or at a madison square there's a totally different feeling in that in that moment I do think there's an analogy there for how creators work in like small channels.

43:14And even as a brand, as a marketer, I can see more brands going, well, why don't we get 30 creators with 30 ,000 subscribers instead of one creator with a million subscribers? Because now we have, right? So even as a strategy to work with brands, it's nice to have a small, because sometimes I price myself out on the main channel now, right? Where they're like, yeah, you have views and like all this stuff and it's huge. but like we were actually looking to do something at this scale. And then I go, well, well, funny you say that. I have a second channel. So if you're going to knock a couple grand off this, well, I'm going to take the money.

43:49We'll just do it on the second channel, right? I'll just pass you my other email real quick. Exactly. I'm like, well, have you seen this channel? Like that's also me. So how about we just do this ad read on that channel instead? That's fantastic. Oh my gosh. Yeah.

44:05I've... I think that I've gotten over the whole, I guess, I guess the other topic that I want to dive into a little bit is sort of confidence in your voice, I guess, when you publicly start sharing who you are and sharing just things that you're passionate about. because I know a lot of people stop after their curiosity of wanting to do something because that fear initially kicks in, the fear of putting themselves out there, the fear of being judged, the fear of all of these things. And I go through that still. When I make a video that feels like this is all of me in a video and I put it out there, I'm subject to get judged, but I think that's part of it.

44:50And I still feel fear, but I've also overcame that in multiple instances. and I think that repetition of overcoming it has built up the sort of strong foundation in my mind to allow me to keep doing it more and more and sort of build that muscle. For you, as you've sort of started on your YouTube journey, your reels, everything that you're sort of building and putting yourself out there, how have you developed that sort of confidence to put yourself out there publicly? Yeah, I think like it comes, you grow a thick skin, obviously, and I think particularly in what I do, there's a lot of really strong opinions, right like especially about media and movies and like what's good and what's bad it's like and it's such a subjective space that no matter what i know and this is something i i like i i've said before it's like i i respect creators with conviction and i don't care if i agree or disagree with them i just want them to to be strong in what they believe in and so i always come at my my opinions i come at them strongly i because i i do truly believe that this is way like why don't movies look like movies anymore in that video like i think a big reason why that video did so well is like a little backstory on that video too because i think it's relevant to this i sat on that video for almost four months i filmed it i filmed it right when wicked had come out or sorry was coming out and wicked ended coming out on christmas something like that and i sat on that video i sat down i recorded i edited it was it was literally unlisted on my channel like or even private because i didn't want people to stumble upon it and because the reason was when i finished that video i watched it back and i was like i'm too angry i was like i'm coming across like i'm mad at the industry i'm mad at hollywood i'm mad at cinematographers like i'm so angry in this video i don't want my perception to be that i'm this grumpy guy yeah who the hell is this guy to say this stuff what the hell are you doing right and so i was sitting on it and then one day there was a there was a tweet that went out that was sort of touching on a similar topic it was just like why like someone was someone was angry being like why the why does shit look so bad now and i was like you know what what do i have to lose i'm not gonna think about this too much maybe it'll do well maybe it won't i won't i i was just like i'm gonna it's been so long now and it's sitting there and i haven't posted in a while and i have this video and i know there's something relevant because people are talking about it let's just throw it out there and now i know that i mistook my anger for passion people saw me really intrigued and interested and passionate about the thing that i was talking about and i i thought i was angry but and i and i know i wasn't angry doing it i was it was conviction about the topic you were talking about it was just conviction about the topic and even in that even that video that has done incredible it's even having a second life right now because another guy just made a video about like why don't movies look the same anymore and so the algorithms re-picked it up so it's getting like 30 40 000 views every two days now and i'm getting more and more comments and even still it's crazy but even now i'm still getting comments that are just like no you're wrong it has nothing to do with this and blah blah blah and i'm just like even when something is like has a consensus of positivity like an overwhelming consensus of positivity there is still very loud people there's reddit threads about me out there about that video that i'm i'm completely out to lunch i have no idea what the hell i'm talking about i don't care like i just like this is what i believed in i still believed it to this day maybe i was overly passionate you could argue maybe about certain things but again it's still just my opinion and it's my my take on it i just got i've gotten to a point where i know that no matter what i say right or wrong there's always going to be haters out there there's a really good quote from tom holland that i saw recently it was just like anybody's opinion who matters has your phone number that's they can they can talk to you like ultimately that's that's the key to this everyone else is a stranger in my opinion yes you can have internet friendships and stuff like that and you can have like your little core community of fans and you know like that guy pops up in my comments all the time that's cool but really your personal life is like your your little world in this real space like in this real world is the thing that truly matters your family and your friends those people what what they have to say and their thoughts and how they feel about what you're doing in your life that matters joe schmoe and nobody on twitter or on threads i don't care like see you later you like me you don't like me the block button is free the mute button is free scrolling past is free I don't care like I had to get to that point otherwise I just know a lot of creators and not not anyone specifically I do know a lot of people and we can all get caught up in this where you just like one comment or a few comments start to really get in your head and it starts to flavor what you're doing next because you're like what are they going to think of me now if I do this again because they thought I was I was cringed or they thought I was being silly or I was so factually incorrect about something like it's over for me right you have to just forget it do what you love like ultimately and i think you feel this too it's like the this is the denise vilnav quote is like i make movies for one person in the audience and that's me right like so if you like what i like great and if you don't i didn't make it for you anyways i never made any of this for you i was making it for me and when you realize that like you're not as unique as you think you are because we all have egos and we all think we're like this special person on this planet but like the internet has really shown us that like there is no real unique experience you know what i mean like we're all kind of going through similar things you're going to find your little pockets of people like i could have gone and be like i'm the only guy that thinks movies don't look like movies anymore i'm the guy i'm the one person on the planet that has figured this out that video did so well because everyone was thinking this right so i was just the one that vocalized it maybe but not even the only one that vocalizes i was the one that just happened to vocalize it in a in a in a way that was that was well packaged well timed right and again talent and opportunity and luck and all that stuff.

50:28That was everything that I've sort of built together into like this, like sort of magnum opus moment of like, I know what I'm talking about at this. It's a very poignant thing that's happening in the industry right now. There's a really huge example of a film like Wicked out there that people revolted against it stylistically. I took all those parameters together and I was the one that vocalized something that a lot of people were already thinking and feeling, and even probably talking about in various formats. I was just the one that packaged it properly, but it didn't make me unique. It didn't make me even special i was just the one that found for whatever reason the moment to make that thing and what's funny is it's something i sat on like for three four months too so and i can go back and be like well what if happens if i had uploaded that when i first recorded it would have done as well and then i can get in my head on that about new videos where i'll go right i'll be like oh shit maybe i should sit on this maybe i was or now i might i might look at videos and be like i'm not passionate enough in this video right so i this is gonna sound really simplistic but like over time And I've learned to really trust instinct and gut, right?