#78 - Todd Banhazl, ASC. - Why Set Culture Creates Better Work

0:00I remember I heard something that you said, I don't know if it was in another podcast or an interview, that cinema is your church. And when your cup sometimes feels empty, you go back to that. But another way that you fill your cup is through the people that you work with and creating an experience on set that is beautiful for the people that you're surrounded by and that is working with you. I'd love to kind of just like dive into that a little bit more about like how you as a DP and a leader are able to remind people why they got into this industry and how you're able to create that sort of environment on set.

0:36Well, I mean, I think it's my job, you know, and I feel like it I think it's my responsibility and I feel like it yields better work. You know, I think it's the way I like to work is in a safe, creative space. So I want to create that for myself and for the team. You know, I want to create that for the director, for the actors, for my crew, for everyone, you know. I think the way that I do it is I just start from how excited I am. You know, I start from my passion and then I try to share that passion on set, you know, like live, out loud. So people understand that we are doing something that this matters.

1:14Like people understand, like, we're not clocking in today. We are we're doing what we love. And, you know, and I think also by asking questions and by encouraging people to bring themselves, you start to show by example that we are all actually in this like safe, creative space where all voices are actually valued. And it just takes time. You know, it's like you started during pre-production in the meetings, the way we talk, the way we share information. You know, we just did a movie. It was really special. It was small. It was like a little family made this movie. and it was about a family, it was about brothers, it was about mental health, it was about addiction and it was healing.

1:51The movie process was about working and healing trauma that we've all had and I think it was really important on that movie to create a space for people to not only do their best work but also feel safe to be there as stuff gets dug up from all of us while it's happening. So I remember the very first production meeting we had, I don't know where this idea came, it was just kind of an instinct. There were these Rice Krispie treats they were given out at this hotel that we did on day zero. And I just put a Rice Krispie treat in the middle of the floor, in the middle of the circular production meeting.

2:23And I put a piece of incense in there and lit it. So it's just like, while we were having this meeting about like what the movie was going to be like and the schedule and everyone's starting to like feel the logistical shit that we're going to have to deal with. Right, the tension's rising a little bit. There's just something right in the middle. This is a reminder of like, you know, it's a Rice Krispie treat with an incense. It's like a reminder. this is incense this is very serious but it's in a brice crispy treat this is not serious at all right you're just trying to like trying to set the tone and then you achieve and then you actually do that when you're on set you know and i i find that it takes about a week for people to start understanding like oh we're we're having fun we're doing very focused work and we're having fun with each other.

3:07And yeah, I don't know. It's you, you perform it, you, you embody it by example. Has this always been something that you have found to be maybe a natural instinct within you as, as like a growing filmmaker, as a DP, or do you find that leadership perhaps, or I guess the way that you communicate with people, the way that you present yourself had to be learned as you developed? Was there mentors that taught you this? How did you sort of develop this? I mean, I think when I was starting out, you're so, uh, look, I always cared so much that I, I believe that I was probably just running around set caring super hard and that was probably noticeable and maybe infectious, you know, but I also was younger and more stressed out and like, wasn't as, um, uh, conscious of the way I was speaking both like what I was saying and how I was saying it on set, you know, and, um, I just think over the years, I, you develop it, you know, you develop it by making mistakes.

4:09You know, I remember like when I was young, like snapping at someone or like being too stressed and speaking to like, like yelling because I was stressed and like seeing what that does to the morale and the energy, especially from like a leader, it just like sucks it out of the room. And I remember learning like, oh, I can't do this. Like you, you, as a leader, like you need to perform vulnerability and make mistakes, but you can't make those mistakes. Like there will be days where I don't bring my best self. Maybe I'm tired or stressed or exhausted, but I will find myself like apologizing to the crew.

4:41And I'll say like, uh, I'm sorry. I wasn't my best self yesterday. And I, I, I remember asking on a certain movie, like, um, like over text at night, like, uh, I am requesting something like um i'm asking for everyone's um empathy and understanding uh and uh and forgiveness for how i behave today and i'm sure i was fine that day i just wasn't at the level that i was hoping to be a leader you know so also like i've seen really classy actors do it and i learned a lot from i remember glenn powell is such uh a graceful person to work with and we'd have fucked up days on set and i you know that he knows because he's a professional and he understands that shit's bad right now, but he would never lose his cool and he would never lose his patience.

5:25And he would be there doing the inserts with his hand, you know? So, and I just remember looking at that and saying, like, this is the level that we need to be at. Like, this is the kind of grace we need to set. This is the example we need to set. So yeah, I don't know. You just hone it over the years and I will be honing it the rest of my life, you know? Do you find that you hold, like when you go into a movie like this, um, I'm curious about what sort of expectations you hold for sort of your key crew in particular, maybe your gaffer, your key group ACs, do you set a certain expectation that you expect them to uphold for them, their team to be able to, because they're also leaders in their own right for their departments.

6:02So there's sort of a representation of you and how you want to lead the entire sort of overarching team, Cameron G &E. How do you sort of set that expectation with your team? Yeah, it's an incredible question. I mean, I think you, uh when you crew you are setting this you're making that choice when you crew so when i'm interviewing people or when i'm maintaining relationships with people what i'm holding on to or what i'm looking for is that energy and that attitude like skill all that stuff it comes with it but like i will take someone whose attitude and heart is more what i'm looking for over experience and skill of course there's a balance to be found but like so once you choose the right people it's kind of like casting when you choose the right actors you don't really need to do much, they will be beautiful for you.

6:47And that's the same thing with crew. So, I mean, I look for people that run their teams like that and speak in that manner and are calm under pressure and in fact, laugh under pressure. And I look for the people that I can look over at them and say like, isn't this, uh, isn't this one of those moments? And we can just, you know, it's like, I want people who are calming me down and I can calm them down and we can cover each other's butts, you know? And so, you know, it's just, it's top down, you know, I want that out of my directors too. I won't work with people that are yellers or don't treat people with respect.

7:15And so. Interesting. Do you mind diving into that a little bit? Cause I think that's something that I'm figuring out as I grow in my career right now, as I'm working with directors that I've built relationships with and also gaining new relationships with directors that I've never met before and have to kind of gauge who they are as human beings. Um, as I like join a project, perhaps. How have you learned to sort of gauge this type of person? And how does that sort of, how do you decide if this is someone that I want to be a part of? Like, do you do multiple meetings? Like, how is this sort of process for you?

7:51It's hard because you don't know until you're on set. Right, exactly. You know, like, because you don't know how people, their real selves come out when they're under pressure. And I mean, you can get inklings, like, you know, when you're first interviewing and you're talking like are they uh do they listen well do they speak well do they you can get someone's like worldview as you're getting to know them but like you know another thing i've learned is that like you're not going to change people like if someone is a certain way they're going to be and also when you when you partner with a director you are entering their world emotional world so you when you commit to a movie you're not only committing to that story and that process, whatever it is, you're also committing to being in their headspace.

8:35You're committing to a marriage for those months. And I've learned like, man, you better be careful which headspaces you enter, you know? But yeah, to your point, we're freelance. So, you know, the best I can do is not do it twice. And I have been through experiences where I realized at a certain point, like, oh, wow. Like, even if I love this movie, this person either is not the type of person who I want to make art with, or it's just the two of us together. It is not the right mix. and uh you see what it does to a crew like when the dp and the director are really in sync both like creatively and emotionally everything flows like miracles happen on set and other people then create they all sync up everything sinks when when the director and the dp are out of sync whether it's uh creatively or emotionally the system falls apart you end you set you set up a wrong shot and then it's not right and then it gets changed and then all of a sudden removing dolly track four times and you're like what how did this happen and you're like and it's the reason it happens because the leaders are not in perfect sync and like the funny thing is it happens even if you are in a great relationship it will always happen like once or twice every movie there's a day where someone's too exhausted and either the director i i feel like every director on every movie has one day where their brain just shuts off like they're too tired they're too stressed and it is our job to take care of them on that day because they're just not they're gone and it's beautiful when it happens because you're like wow my sweet dear partner right there's just too much and it just clicks.

10:01And, you know, it is your job to then really step up and take care of them. But on those days, that's the days where I feel like, oh, this is what it would be like if we were never in sync. And it sucks. Yeah, that's something that I'm trying to figure out too. That and just what is the sort of path for me as I grow as a DP? Because right now, a lot of what I do is the sort of commercial world. That's where I'm at. I'm starting to get more into narrative. I have a future. I've done a bunch of shorts and I'm just trying to figure out like how much of my growth as a DP is based on the sort of curation of the work that I say yes to or no to versus do I just say yes to everything and hope that the quantity of work helps me?

10:50That's sort of like something that I'm internally struggling with right now. And I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. Yeah. It's the eternal question, isn't it? I mean, I'm, I'm also grappling with that all the time. You know, I, I only know how to do it the way I have done it and what works for me. I don't know if that's the way, but for me, it's been, uh, you used a really good word. You said your first option was, uh, was it cultivation? Uh, curation. Curation. For me, it's always been curation. Like I've always just naturally acted like I had a choice even when I didn't have a choice and i always i mean look in the earliest years i was shooting absolutely everything i possibly could and just trying to make it good but as soon as even the inkling of the work started to feel like me and it was rolling towards like this is my voice and these are the kinds of projects i want to work on even in like microwaves i kind of started just acting with more choosiness than i had a right to have uh and it's a balance right because then you're also can i afford to do this can i and it's tough too because you pass on something and it feels empowering but then that would have led to something that was special so i think i don't there's a lot of what ifs yeah dude it's all what ifs so i think in that face of that i you can't chase your tails so i kind of just make the best decision i can in the moment and if i i will say this anytime i've picked a project that wasn't for the the right reasons like if i Yeah, it never turned out right.

12:23It was never the right one. As much as I thought like, oh, it'd be cool to like hitch my wagon to this director because then they're doing the kind of work that I want other directors to know me for. But like if something was nagging at me, maybe it wasn't the right, we weren't the right match, whatever it was, it always bites me. So at this point, I'm like, I just have to follow my heart and also acknowledge that there's going to be a ton of cool movies that I don't shoot. I think that was like a major switch for me is like, I'm going to miss out on so much. And like, I'm going to say no to the wrong things.

12:53I'm going to say yes to the wrong things. I'm going to pass on something that I wish I had done. Someone else is going to do it. They're going to kill it. Like it, I don't know. You just have to love the one you're doing. And I have to imagine, cause what I've seen is that that has led me to the next thing, whether I knew it or not, like there was no grand plan. It was just the, I started doing shit that I cared about. And then people, I think somehow have some sense that I work on shit that I care about. I also think like it's the way I speak when I interview, like I'm a certain kind of artist, I'm a certain kind of person and you either are down with this thing that I, the way I'm doing it or not.

13:27And, and I don't mean that like a difficult way. It's just like, I have a way of collaborating and working and I am looking for people that connect and vibe with that, you know, or I'm also looking to people where I can vibe with with their shade of it but if that's not it then screw it you know i have to imagine that's going to lead me somewhere but i acknowledge this is a very very very privileged thing to say because this this acknowledges that there is work out there that is around and coming in and that is not the case for most people it's also not the case for me in the early years it's not the case sometimes on and off like we all it's freelance but of course i especially right now it's a super overprivileged thing to say.

14:06So I don't know. I, I, I guess it's a long way of saying like, there's probably a way to act as if you have the power to say no, even when you don't. And then you, of course, you're being careful. You're saying yes when you need to, you're doing, you know, it, I'm not, by no means am I recommending people pass on everything when they are any stage of their career, especially right now when there's no work out there. But I think it's like an internal confidence that actually does help. I think for me, it's also like deciphering your decision-making based on, am I saying yes to this because I'm fearful that there's not going to be anything ever again type of decision versus I want to do this because, you know, fill in the blank X, Y, Z.

14:50I just, I feel that there, like with a lot of people that I talk to, especially that's around my sort of, I guess, level of cinematography, we tend to talk a little bit about making decisions based on the fear of there not being enough of something. And I think that's something that I'm really curious about too, is like, do you feel that in terms of the decisions, do you struggle sometimes with the fear of there not being something? Or is that something that you've kind of gotten over at this level and have you felt that sort of fear initially when you were kind of starting i felt that fear every day forever uh for the for i don't know 10 years like i graduated in 2009 so how many years is that from now that's uh 16 years is that sounds about right we'll go there okay maybe is that whatever the hell whatever number that is 2026, um, seven, eight, nine, that's 17, 16 years, 17 years, something like that.

15:52That's crazy. That's crazy. That's crazy. Cause I still feel like I'm a punk kid on set, but I would say for 10 years, I lived with that fear every single project, every single day, and it still comes back in waves, but I have worked on and I'm getting better at not holding that fear at the front and kind of faking it, just like assuming that something will come. and then i will stress about it when nothing comes but i've gotten better at not stressing about it until the thing happens like i've gotten better at like passing on a movie and i'm like well there's nothing else in the early next year but like something will happen and then one or two things happens either one nothing comes and it's quite stressful but okay fuck it um and it gets stressful but it works out somehow or two something else comes so it the thing doesn't change.

16:42It's just like how I hold it. I've gotten better at, you know, a lot of it seems to be just based on previous experience of you going through the thing and then sort of just like years of seeing what that outcome has been for you to be able to build that sort of mental strength and fortitude to determine if you should live within this fear or not. And I think for me, because I'm still young and not have as much experience, I don't think I have that sort of backlog of that track record yet that has told me yeah it will still come i think it really does come with time and experience yeah i think so too i i do think it is not something that that you could just have it it's the same thing about like stressing on set or like when problems come up on set like it over the years we've all been in really messed up hilariously messed up tough situations i'm getting to the point now where when like something goes really wrong i'm like you know just laugh about we just we just know that it's going to be okay and actually like because we've been there and it's going to suck and it'll be stressful but like we'll get through it and i actually think at that point in uh as a leader emitting and uh embodying the feeling that it is okay actually does make it better like because everyone on set this is kind of a segue but like people are looking around they're like is everything okay and like if you're the one at the top and like it's okay and like you mean it like you you are it that it is okay people are like oh then it's okay and then it's okay like it's you can put out fires you can calm things down you know it's like someone's worried about uh we're behind you know something blew my mind uh when we were doing winning time the pilot uh we were like falling behind and um actually no there's two examples of this but i'll give one example that's better uh uh it was me and adam mckay and we're prepping the the show and uh our first ad is like um hey we're gonna show you guys the uh car you guys are shooting in do you want to check uh do you want the front view mirror uh removed uh for like the shot and me and mckay were like no no we're good and then uh and then we get there on the day and we're setting up the car and then we're like ah shit like the camera we need to we need to pull the front view mirror out and so me and we we tell the ad that we have to pull it out and he looks at us with this like stress look and mckay i'll never forget he goes man we should have thought of that beforehand and it just like it just like diffused the whole thing i was like how brilliant like it's fine it's fine it's like right okay we okay now we're 20 minutes behind but we'll find it somewhere else like you know that's like a small example but like it's just like i don't know i really that little moment blew my mind it changed the way i work you know it

19:48Yeah. and even health, wellness, and nutrition. Enrollment is now open. So head over to chivacollective.com. That's chivacollective.com and join today. I look forward to welcoming you to this community. I'd love to also just kind of pick your brain a little bit on working with newer directors as a DP and sort of where does your responsibility lay in terms of, do you find that you also have to be an educator in a way of kind of explaining how certain things work like um on set how how long things might take like i i i've ran into this a couple times with first-time directors that maybe don't have a lot of set experience where i find some value in being somebody that could also sort of educate and guide them into what the actual process is like.

20:40Is that something that you find is, is an important role of being a DP in sort of that, that, that stage with working with first time director? Yes, I really do. Um, and I've worked with a lot of first time directors and I think, yeah, it's one of our, um, beautiful responsibilities, one of our noble responsibilities. Um, I think the balance becomes, uh, I always want to make sure, and I screw this up sometimes, but I'm trying to listen really well so that I make sure I hear their entire idea and approach before I share the concerns or the thoughts I have on what that will be like logistically.

21:20You know what I mean? Because when you're hearing an idea from a director, like any director, but especially a first-time director, they don't know what they don't know and they might be planning something that you're like, I've looked at store words and I'm like, there's no way we're going to get to half of this. you know but like i don't want to just cut it off and be like hey just so you know we're not going to get to this i want to you know you want to guide it of like okay like this is great so why don't we sit down and let's talk to our ad and let's look at it and like i i worry we won't have time to do all this with quality like so you can share like you're saying like there are many solutions here it's like do we want to make more time for this should we try to do a pass where we skim it back like or i'll ask like what are the what are the most important beats here or what is the overall most important like idea here like you know it's just trying to communicate in a way that still helps their idea like bloom as opposed to being like i've been there this is not going to work you know um because there is beginner's mind is really powerful and sometimes i love it's almost like the limitless the limitless mind the the yeah i actually completely agree and something that i find that i really enjoy doing with directors when i get um brought onto a film whether it's mostly shorts, I've done one feature, but the shorts that I've done is whenever we kind of talk about a shot list initially, or just talk about the film in general, I love to be able to just create or be in a space where we can come up with the most absurd ideas possible, the most like elaborate things.

22:47And just like, if we had a billion dollars, how would we make this movie? and then from there you just create as many ideas just be free and then eventually you start paring it down from there but you only pare it down coming from the pure creative imaginative mind that was that first meeting or second meeting whatever it is could not agree more and i think that's the way you get to if you castrate the thing or if you if you cut it before it even gets to be its full idea then you're shortchanging it i i totally agree and i think that happens every day like i mean you have to keep on re you're trying to like keep that space open you know and like i don't know i remember my director on this previous movie he was like uh we're gonna jump on the train and the actor's gonna jump on the train and we're gonna do it for real and i'm like in my mind i'm like i know me and the ad are like what is this just no like i'm just thinking about like i'm thinking about the train uh safety bureau and i'm thinking about the county and i'm thinking about the stuntmen and i'm thinking all this shit stunt person and and but i just kind of kept quiet it and i was like you know what i want to live i want to exist in the creative space where our actor is going to jump on this real train like that's a cool place as a happy place to be that this director's at why not join that and like if it's not going to happen it'll not happen eventually and you know what happened it it actually happened because like i think through his just saying like this is what's happening everyone was kind of like oh i guess it's happening so they all like right we figured out we pitch yeah we pitched it to the actor we pitched it to the city we pitched to the train people and everyone sort of like made it work safely and um ultimately it happened so i it's like thank goodness i me or the ad wasn't like look dude like we love you but like we're to save time let's skip that you know so i think that's i think that's a really interesting point is just for like dps in general maybe like when you're listening to directors that sometimes have these outlandish ideas because i i know we all feel that sometimes these outlandish ideas is to just stop and let it be for the moment.

24:51Like let that idea brew, let that idea sink in instead of just going to your immediate logistical mind of how is this gonna happen? Why is this not gonna happen? And I think there's really something valuable that you said about just like being quiet and just listening. And you really never know what's gonna come out of that. I think that's something for me to really take away moving forward. Yeah, I mean, you're already doing it. it's the it's the right way i think it's what i also want from my collaborators like i i want my directors like letting my ideas come to their full thing like i want to chase the wrong idea because it'll get us to the right idea and i like i want my gaffer also like to hear my idea and to not be the first thing tell me like why we probably can't afford that i want them to like live in that idea and come up with a solution you know we had to it was a scene made to do with like a big fire and we couldn't afford fire and we couldn't afford all that stuff.

25:43And, you know, it was my gaffer. I credit him with saying with, instead of just being like, we're getting all these no's, he came back and he was like, what if we just backlight a ton of smoke and there is no actual fire? And I was like, yes, that's what I'm talking about. Like, that is the idea, you know? So yeah, everyone needs to do it to each other. Hmm. I'd love to kind of transition a little bit into sort of what, how do you define personal work? And I know that this is something that is really important to you in creating personal work, especially within a business industry. So like, what is, how do you define personal work and how do you find that within an industry in a film space that is very business forward?

26:36Yeah, it's, it's the question, isn't it? I think about that a lot right now especially with how much uh film is in this i don't want to say it's in trouble but it's in a very funny moment right now you know between uh mega corporations owning everything and streamers and mergings and um theaters and so i feel like because of all that noise it's even more important than ever that we're making personal work you know it's like something like um one battle after another comes out and you're like right there it is like there it is it you know everything from that to frankenstein like there's so much personal work coming out you know in different shades but um it just matters so that you cut through all the bullshit so i mean the way to be personal i don't know it's at every single step of the way i think it's every it's what you choose to shoot it's where you put the camera it's the environment you create on set that shows up on screen it's how you light a face is extremely personal you know it's it's what you're paying attention to it's what you care about in that story and that i always think like the most personal thing i can do is choose what lens goes on a face and how i like that face and like you know the choice of spherical versus anamorphic of a wide lens versus a long lens of below the eyes of above the eyeline of from the side a tight eyeline these are all like personal decisions that yield how you're relating to the performance to an emotion to a character so like the way you love something is in every single choice.

28:05Every single choice is what makes it personal. Do you feel like at your, like at the level that you're at, you have to fight for your taste in what you're shooting in the way that you compose and the way that you light? Like, because I know that at, you know, shooting at Netflix level, maybe a 24 neon, there's students, there's a ton of people that have a say in what's going on in this film where I'm shooting, you know, maybe it's a producer, maybe it's a, you know, it's very small. So the way that I depict it maybe is like, I feel like I can, I can have a bit of a stronger taste. Do you feel like you have to fight a bit more about how you want to deliver your cinematography?

28:45I try to create scenarios where we're so aligned before we begin that I don't have to fight. A lot of the prep work is sharing the information. It's creating really involve pitch decks full transparency especially when we're taking risks like sharing the risks and getting people excited about them as like oh we're doing something special together you know this it's everything from like when we do weird shit in post like having big meetings with the post team winning time we'd have these big meetings with the post pipeline to describe like you're going to be getting all these weird film formats uh we don't want you to all the different formats in the world and like you know we wanted to we wanted to be interlaced and they're like well it can't be interlaced because it has to all be in the same timeline okay well it can't be interlaced but we can uh we can blur the field so that it looks interlaced so then that's a yes it's not a no it's a yes you know it's like it it's like okay cool i hear all your no's and your concerns and like it's also about not like bullying it through like i'm the artist it's like okay cool you have legitimate concerns you have you as a company need to like be able to process this footage and keep it organized so i mean another example is we just did a movie where um we never called cut we never called action we never uh we would shoot for like 45 minutes without cutting our actors were allowed to go anywhere we were making up new scenes as we went like we'd start shooting scene 12 but like halfway through the actors would just be creating a brand new scene that had no and it's like how do you get that footage to post and we had these long conversations about like this is the process that is happening on this film it's what's necessary for this film but we also acknowledge like we also need you to be able to organize this so we worked out solutions of like front slating, end slating, labeling systems, like, you know, but you're getting, the first week they were like, what the hell are you guys doing?

30:30And then we talked and like, well, here's why we're doing it and here's what it's yielding and here's why we can't not do it. So how do we help? You know, it's everything from that to like making pitch decks that go to the producers and go to the financier and go to the production company and so they see the references. That was gonna be my next question is like, you know, that full transparency, obviously it's with the director, but who else do you, do you find that you want to be fully transparent with to be able to like everyone, everybody, everybody. Um, I think, uh, everybody, every costume designers, production designers, um, props department, um, lighting, grip, camera, um, makeup department, um producers line producers i think it's really cool to get your line producers or the people who are involved in the logistics and the money understanding the creative because then when you hit them with like we need this extra lens or we need this extra light or i need this extra person or whatever it is you can be like well we're trying to do that thing and they can get it and they they might they'll figure out solutions for you're trying to make it a family a team you know yes i i share it with everyone and i've learned that like you can try to hide things but it'll come back because it'll like i said like if you don't tell your line producer you're trying to do we want to let's say we want to mix anamorphic and spherical if you tell them here's here's like a book of here images of what we're trying to do like certain scenes are going to be this certain scenes are gonna be this as if you don't tell them that they're just gonna be like why does this list have you know 16 lenses on it do you know i mean like can you cut some it's like as a you know so you then you have to backtrack from there yeah i'm trying to make friends man there's a there's an expression uh if you don't trust someone you make them untrustworthy i think that's really interesting it's like if you treat someone like they can't be trusted you put them in a situation where they're not trustworthy and so counter to that if you treat someone like a friend and like one of your close confidants they will become that look some people you can't get through but that's them you know um so okay given that if you created that scenario no i find that i don't have to fight for most of the work i also just don't ask for permission i once we've all agreed that this is the idea at first it's permission but once it's agreed upon then you've hired me to to do this for you you know to deliver and i mean i remember saying to a director kind of recently, like, let me do what I know how to do for you.

33:04Like, I promise you, like, I promise you, I hear everything you say. I remember everything. So trust me when I'm out there, you know? And what's, if you don't mind me asking, what scenario was it where you kind of had to say that? Were they questioning something that you were doing? Were they fearful? Were they nervous? What made you say that? It was during prep actually. And, um, when we were starting, it was this movie that we did recently that was done in a very experimental way and we were starting to talk about that way we were going to do it where like I'm building a tiny little camera there's no what there's no lighting there's very little crew we're just like in the thing and I I knew what that was going to be like and it was his first feature and I knew at that moment like wow this I know how to do this this is in my bones and I and I wanted to say to my closest collaborator at that moment like before we jump in I have let me just say I have got you and let me run like let me go I think I've also like I think I knew how close we were to greatness and I knew that if we were in a scenario where I could be left to my instincts I would deliver all of this person's dreams in collaboration with them I just felt it and so I I felt it like it was worth saying, you know?

34:22And I mean, I know what it has been like when a director of more experience than me has given me that permission. Like, I know what happens when I'm trusted. I can do my absolute best work. So I was kind of just sharing with someone who, we were already so close, but I was just making sure that it was understood. Like, I really know what you want here. So let me fly, you know? Wow, I love that. That's amazing. It sounds like I can't even imagine a scenario right now in my career that I would have been shooting for 45 minutes in that full experimental sort of way.

35:03Let me ask this. Let me rephrase that. Looking back on that experience, what do you think you took away from it that could help you, that would have helped you or did help you on an upcoming project? patience and trust because what you learn is you're sitting there and you're like this isn't working this isn't working this isn't working this should we cut should we cut they're just sitting there they're not doing anything we should probably cut we should cut oh shit it's brilliant you know like just waiting and it's something i learned in documentary and i remember when i was young like i'm doing this doc and i was like running around because i was so stressed because i couldn't i couldn't the actors were they they're the actors the real people were like walking away and I couldn't get over their faces and how are they going to edit it later?

35:49And I remember the director being like, just, just wait, they'll come back. They'll come back to camera, you know? And so this was a little more like a doc. So I learned to just like, wait. I mean, we would do, we do 30 minutes without cutting of stuff that won't be in the movie just for two minutes of something that we never could have written, you know, that held so much truth. And we were winning trust from the actors. We were, we were showing the actors that like we will be here as long as it takes for you to find that truth. And like, it is like, we've truly mean safe space. You know, it also meant like, um, we would show up to a location and something would feel off and we just wouldn't shoot it.

36:25And like, we were buying and like in your head, you're like, uh, okay, well, pretty sure that that beat is needed for the thing to move. But you're kind of like, at that moment, you're like, we are sacrificing that to the altar of trust for the actors of like, you guys aren't feeling it. fuck it. It's dead. We trust you. You know, which is the second thing is it's trust. It's like trusting that the actors, uh, know the essential truth of the thing so deeply that even if they're going to show it to us in a way that is beyond our expectations or what we planned, trust that that's the thing. I mean, a lot of this movie that our mantra on it was witness.

37:08Like the director said to me and i love this he said we're not making a movie we are creating an environment for magic to occur which we will transmute into a movie later and i was like man that is so crazy like can you just respect what's happening and like the truth of what's happening and then can we just trust that later we'll be smart enough to give it a structure and an order you know and that's i mean look not every movie can be done like that but i want to take pieces of that into more structured films where there's more money and more stress and more pressure from above like i want to be like trust like cool let's just keep shooting let's let the actor like let it suck for as long as it needs to suck before it finds itself you know wow i also think it's a schedule thing it only worked because we had the schedule for it so it does make me want to work on films where our schedule is relaxed so that we can provide this kind of working it did it taught me like this whole thing we do of like moving so quickly where you have you have no time to like it's not the way man so well that's what takes a director too like yeah yeah that's that's something that i'm figuring out too on this short that i'm prepping right now is like how many pages are we shooting per day and how much time are we going to allot to per scene and just trying to figure out that balance of like how are we going to actually be able to sit in a scene and like like dig into it a little bit or are we just going to be yeah here's the scene get it move on And I just, sorry, I don't know if you could hear my dog.

38:38He's going crazy right now. But I just, I want to try to be in a world where I'm able to sit in a scene more. And I did a short a couple, maybe last year, where the director and I, I've never prepped for a short for so long. It was six months we prepped for a short. She was in Europe and I was in America. and when we got on set this is going back to what we said earlier we knew each other like it was like we've known each other our whole lives and because of that we were able to get on set not have to really decide certain things we just knew what was happening and that gave us a little extra time here and there per scene to just dive into the performance a little bit more just a little bit more and what we were able to get out of that just a little bit more was amazing and i think that's just something i i keep trying to search for and and provide on these projects that i'm working on and i just yeah i don't really like the the fast shit man it's tough i know me too dude and it's like look we can do it and as dps we have to and like it's we have to work faster than they ever did in the past and we're being asked to make movies that look and act like our favorite movies where they had twice as much time and twice but that's what it is there's no other way now you know and we're gonna have to continue to do it faster and cheaper but to your point it's like can you create a workflow where you're you're not setting yourselves up to fail and i mean i'm often the one pushing gently for like should we cut now before we get on set and like you know it's a rare director that um can do it but i tell you once they get on set and they feel shitty it feels, they'll do it the next time, you know, but you're kind of trying to softly be like, I think, you know, we got too much tomorrow.