Diet for ADHD: How Nutrition Shapes Focus, Mood, and Brain Health | Timothy Frie

27:58If you were born into a family kind of like mine where your parents, you know, they're working nonstop. Their stress levels are high. They have a history of addiction. Maybe there's domestic violence or some sort of other trauma happening. All of these life experiences, their attachment that you have with your parents, your relationship to your teachers and your caregivers, that's shaping your neurobiology. And your body is always looking for some sense of safety. It's called neuroception, how your body is assessing, am I safe? Is there a threat? Is there a danger? And if you spend a lot of time in a danger response or a threat response, all of that is driven by different things happening in the brain and different things happening with different hormones.

28:46And over time, chronic exposure to the neurobiological complications of stress or to a traumatic event, it has a direct impact on your executive functioning. So your ability to like plan and prepare meals. So connecting this back to your question, okay, how has a caregiver's life experiences and their neurobiological state, how does that influence their ability to take care of their child's nutritional needs and their capacities? So we have that variable to consider. And then when it comes to like what the child is eating, it's not just a matter of like, okay, well, let's make sure we get these nutrients.

29:27Yes. Like we need omega-3 fatty acids. We need enough fats. We need enough carbs, enough proteins, enough of these micronutrients. But what about the quantity of the food? What about the timing of the food? You know, a lot of neurodivergent people and children, especially have a hard time communicating their dietary preferences. They may not even be aware of their hunger signaling or their fullness signaling or how to really navigate that. And then we're in this household with these stressed out parents who are doing their absolute best to try to take care of us, but they don't understand the nuances of how someone or a neurodivergent child might be experiencing food.

30:03So we kind of get conditioned. You know, my experience as a child who, you know, was diagnosed with autism and ADHD in my late twenties, I was such a like textbook picky eater, you know, as a child. And it was very much due to sensory experiences and aversions. and no one ever really taught me how to navigate that. So I spent a lot of my childhood eating foods that I did not like. I spent a lot of time as a child not eating enough because I didn't, I think I thought that some of the food was disgusting, but I had to eat it, you know, because that's what was available to us. So I think, you know, those types of experiences set us up for ignoring hunger cues and misunderstanding how our body works later in life.

30:47And I think that it sets us up for just not understanding the significance of nutrition, because it's always been this thing of, well, I'm hungry, so I need to eat, or it's just been a matter of survival. But there's a lot more going on there. We'll often see a hyper-focus on things like red dye. Red dye is the problem for ADHD, so just remove that. Or it's gluten. Everybody take out gluten and everybody will be fine. What's problematic in those statements? Yeah. Well, I mean, I am very much team, you know, let's make sure that there are not unnecessary excipients and substances in our food. Some things just don't need to be there, you know, regardless of what the data says, regardless of the climate around the research or whatever, like we don't need red dye.

31:36We do not need certain things to exist. And I think that brings us back to this issue of nutritional literacy, like what actually as significant when it comes to our nutritional health. Right now, the seed oil conversation, I don't consume a lot of seed oils because that's my preference and that's based on my personal assessment of the research and the data that's available. I also know that me avoiding seed oils is not sufficient. That's not enough for me to meet my nutritional needs. There's a lot of other things that I need to think about. So I think we're just kind of in this, you know, reductionist space where we're getting really hyper-focused on, you know, one or a handful of specific excipients or, you know, dyes or, you know, things that are in food.

32:25And then we're attributing all of these different things to, you know, this, whatever it is. And I kind of see that as like, it's, it's a little bit of a, it's a distraction. You know, the issue is not just the red diet. It's not just the gluten. It's not just artificial sweeteners or whatever it is. It is the food environment. And for us to take care of ourselves and to meet our nutritional needs, we need to understand how our life experiences have shaped our relationship with food. And to navigate our relationship with food, we can't just focus on eliminating certain foods or restricting certain things.

33:02We have to really understand these interconnected relationships and learn how to navigate this space given our means and our capacity and what's going on with our body. If your ADHD feels different across your cycle, postpartum, or in perimenopause, ADHD in Women explains why hormones can change your brain and what you can do about it. Pre-order now and for a limited time, get the first chapter audio read by me, Dr. Jolene Brighton, for free. Plus a bunch of other bonuses like a free recipe guide and a PMDD workshop. Claim your bonuses at drbrighton.com slash ADHD and women. That's D-R-B-R-I-G-H-T-E-N.com slash ADHD and women.

33:49You're a nutritional neuroscience researcher. What is your take from the research on seed oils? Oh, boy. I don't know if I'm the best person to answer that despite my background and training because I think that food is a very individual experience. My understanding of the data is going to be different because my perception of how I'm interpreting the significance or the possibility or the risk is shaped by my life experiences, right? As someone who had experienced childhood trauma and food insecurity and is neurodivergent. And I also have the privilege of being able to afford alternatives and understand the alternatives and how to cook with and prepare foods with alternative seed oils.

34:40I'm not convinced that avoiding seed oils really moves the needle on anyone's health in a way that can be assessed through any sort of validated biometric test. I think this recommendation to avoid seed oils is so reductionistic because I could tell someone who has a history of cardiovascular disease to avoid seed oils. And my intent would be avoid foods that have seed oils in them, which theoretically would be a lot of ultra-processed foods. But okay, so I cut that out. I'm avoiding the seed oils, but I'm still in a state of overnutrition. I'm still eating 2000 more calories than I need in a day.

35:26I'm still not getting enough micronutrients. I still don't understand, don't have really great interoceptive awareness, but I'm avoiding seed oils. I don't think it's significant enough of a variable in the nutritional landscape to really move the needle for people. Now, there's no denying the epidemiological data, you know, but I think even a lot of those studies are, you know, they're not perfect. Nutrition science research is tough. You know, we can't really hold it to the same standard as pharmaceutical research because it's completely different. You know, that's something else I see online that drives me crazy.

36:00It's like, oh, we need to make sure that, you know, the nutrition research is held to the same standard as pharmaceutical research. That doesn't even make any sense. You know, like it's usually Only people who don't understand nutrition. Yes. And it's such a well-intended statement. Like I get where you're going. Yes. Like research should be rigorous and yes, we should have standards, but the food environment and the variable of a specific nutrient or a meal, all of the, there's just so much that's different from a nutritional clinical trial than a pharmaceutical clinical trial. It is so much easier for someone to take a pill and you measure a biomarker before and after, you know, looking at duration and effect size and, you know, all of these things when, you know, we're asking someone to change their diet.

36:47There's so many other factors at play just from a neurochemistry perspective. So all that to be said, you know, I don't think seed oils, I think they're heavily politicized right now. I think that focusing on avoiding seed oils is, it's been kind of this way to socially engineer more in-group, out-group thinking and keep people arguing about who's right and who's wrong with nutrition. I just don't think for my life and my family, I'm going to avoid seed oils when I can. But if I find a pack of nuts that has a little bit of canola oil in it, I'm probably still going to eat it. If I go out to eat, I'm not going to be worrying about, is there avocado oil or canola oil?

37:26I'm going to enjoy the meal and I'm going to move on with my life. I have the same perspective. When you go out to eat, you're not going to be able to control everything and you should just buckle up because you don't even know if they spit in your food. And I hate to even think that, but like for real, like so much is out of our control in that arena. And I think that we do a disservice to people in being like, you need to be afraid of all of these things. Therefore you stop going out and enjoying time and company, you know, with people, you stop socializing, you will skip meals rather than eat at the airport because you feel paralyzed by making a decision.

38:03And I think, you know, we've heard a 80, 20 rule talked about a lot. And I, I like that framing because it's like, you've got a 20 % buffer. That's huge, actually 20 % buffer, but I'm right there with you. I don't have canola oil in my house. Like we cook with, um, I love ghee. I'm a big fan of ghee, especially I, have you seen the research on butyrate and ADHD? Yes. It's really fascinating. Yeah. Okay. We're going to talk about that in a second. But I just, you know, for people, cause I, I know people are always interested, like, what, what are you doing? And I'm always hesitant. Cause I'm like very much in the way you framed it.

38:38I'm different. I'm different than you. And I have different needs and my life looks different. Um, and yeah, I think that just saying that like, yes, I don't cook with seed oils in my house. Of course, like if it's an Asian dish though, and it says sesame oil, like that's how you do it. Like that's how it's done. Um, and that's the same thing. Like, I'm not worrying about that. What I'm more concerned about when it comes to seed oils is ultra processed food. Ultra processed food doesn't need to exist. I would argue maybe for the military, what it was developed for, that was a good place to have it.

39:11But this is not necessary part of the human diet. It is structured, as you said, and by design in our society that it's become a necessary part of some people's diets just to get enough calories. However, I just want people to understand that if you go out to a restaurant and you have seed oils, it's not like that your body's like you're cursed, done deal, like there's no root covering. You can have that buffer there. And I think you're absolutely right that it has become politicized. It's very interesting because having studied nutrition in the early 2000s and talking about avoiding canola oil and soybean oil and cottonseed oil was a very liberal, crunchy take, like you were a woo-woo over there.

39:54And now it's spun the other way. And I'm like, not a lot has changed for all intents and purposes in the nutrition research that has made it where it's like, yes, hard fact one way or the other. And that's the problem with nutrition is it's often really gray and it's unsatisfying to people because they're like, I just want you to tell me exactly what to eat, what is right, what is wrong. And it's always context. It depends. Where's your health at right now? As you talked about, you know, especially like, you know, with, with children, like who's preparing your meals and how does it, there's so many factors that come into play far beyond food.

40:32Um, but what brought up the ADHD butyrate, do you want to talk about that a little bit? Yeah. You know, well, I'm definitely not, you know, an expert on that topic, but you know, one thing I'll share just some, some, from some lived experience, getting my ADHD diagnosis in my late twenties was truly life-saving from a nutritional and health perspective for me. I had several different eating disorders, binge eating disorder, orthorexia, muscle-oriented disorder eating for about 10 years before I even realized that I might have an eating disorder. I had to go to graduate school. And there was maybe like two slides about eating disorders and nothing about ADHD, not to say that my program was subpar.

41:11This is a common experience among a lot of people who have nutrition training. And I remember the first therapist that I went to where I shared some concern about my eating, she went, oh, you know, you're, you're great. I really wish all of my patients just ate like you did. And I'm like, okay, great. So thinking about food nonstop, worrying about interleukin six and, you know, eating broccoli and worrying about like, NRF2 pathways and all these things like this is normal. Okay, great. And I think a lot of people are kind of on this disordered eating pipeline and they don't really realize it. And especially people who have ADHD or people who have experienced traumatic stress, you know, a lot of this excitability in the brain and impulsivity that we see with ADHD or emotional dysregulation that's common in ADHD or, you know, some forms of neurodivergence and traumatic stress, it influences our nutritional behavior, which is what I would much rather talk about than butyrate, to be honest, you know, because I think understanding our...

42:09Fair enough. Yeah, I think it's our... It's just looking at things that you can eat that support your health. I can do something separate on butyrate, but it supports the notion. So butyrate is generated. It's a short-chain fatty acid generated by the microbiome in your gut. And so it lends to the idea that your gut health does absolutely matter in terms of your neurological health. And butyrate is actually found in ghee, and it can be a great source. And it's been shown just to be beneficial, nourishing for ADHD. It's not necessarily like you're going to eat butyrate and that's going to totally cure your ADHD.

42:45It's more like this is a helpful nutrient that can lend itself to you having better executive function. So that's my spiel on it. I can do another episode where I talk more about it. You can talk about the stuff you're passionate about. Yeah, no. And I think, you know, that's important too. You know, you mentioned, you know, what this does in the gut with short chain fatty acids and such. You know, there's a lot of conversation right now about gut brain, gut brain access and, you know, gut immune, gut endocrine access and things like that. I think the enteric nervous system is something that we really don't understand a whole lot about yet.

43:15But we also kind of think that we do understand a lot. But one thing that comes to mind about what you just said is you said it's one of these things that you can do. This is one thing to think about if you have ADHD. And I think that is just this mindset of what can I do to support myself? Like that perspective of what can I do to support myself and meet my nutritional needs in ways that are within my means versus how do I fix this thing with food? How do I fix this thing with a supplement? Shifting from like this salutogenic health promoting perspective away from this pathogenic disease treating perspective, I think is what's going to allow us to have a more constructive relationship with food.

43:55And people who have ADHD or neurodivergent or have experienced trauma know that food is pretty difficult to navigate. Like sometimes we don't really know, is this a craving? Am I hungry? Am I full? Do I need to eat? Do I need to drink? Like, what is, do I just need to do? And then we end up doing nothing for four hours. And then, you know, just like, oh, okay, now I'm hungry. I have to eat. And it's, I think, understanding how these external variables or things that are outside of our body shape the way that we interpret our internal signals is the key. And that's requisite, I think, to even before we even get into into different supplements and things to think about.

44:37I think that's part of this puzzle that we're missing here, because there's not a lot of money to be made or a lot of control to be had. If people actually understand how to navigate their body, if people actually knew how to determine what do I need, when do I need it, how much do I need it? We would not have, you know, and I understand you're in a supplement company. So respect to that. You're one of the few people that are doing it right. one of the few companies, but we wouldn't have this trillion dollar, you know, multi-trillion dollar supplement industry if people knew how to meet their nutritional needs.

45:08And we wouldn't need them if we didn't have all these systemic barriers where people can benefit from supplements because it helps them meet their nutritional needs because it is so much easier sometimes to take a powder, to take a capsule. And, you know, this is kind of bringing us back to what we were just talking about with extremism, with nutritional perspectives. I think there's also this perspective where if you're taking nutritional supplements and you're lazy or you're bad or you don't really need them, and then the other perspective is whole foods always meet your needs through whole foods.

45:41Well, there are people and populations and diseases where people do need and benefit greatly from nutritional supplementation. And when I think about people who experience executive function, like people who have ADHD, people who are experiencing like any degree of cognitive overload, or they've experienced trauma. Supplementation is really important for those people and it can help them bridge the gaps when they don't have capacity for cooking. And I'm one of those people. Like I start my day with a shake or a smoothie that has two scoops of whey protein. I've been doing that since I was 15 years old.

46:17That's important for me. If I don't have some sort of protein supplement during the day after just a few days, it's tough for me to eat enough protein. So all of that being said, kind of went on a tangent there, but I just can't emphasize enough just how important it is for us to take the time to really understand how to meet our nutritional needs in ways that are within our means. Well, I appreciate your kind words about my supplement company. People are always taken back when I say that I own a supplement company and I will still tell you it is food first. It is lifestyle first. And if you're not doing those things, you can't just pop a supplement and think that it's going to change your life.

46:59Like you have to have that foundation. But as you said, sometimes we have to use supplementation because it's hard to get that foundation, right? So if you are emotionally and if your nervous system is dysregulated, so we talked about executive functions. I want to get further into that. I think a lot of people don't realize that emotional regulation is an executive function. And if you are a neurodivergent woman, and then you go into perimenopause, that gets really hard. Or if you just go into perimenopause, this executive function gets really hard because of estrogen dropping, because of progesterone not interacting with GABA.

47:34And we can see by way of the stress response that something like magnesium becomes something we need much more of. Now you've got an emotionally dysregulated person who is suffering with executive functions and you're like, here's all these whole foods with magnesium. Can you eat enough to get 300 to 500 milligrams a day? And that becomes overwhelming to the system. And sometimes you bring in something like magnesium glycinate, it helps them start sleeping. They're getting ahead of, basically the nervous system issues by way of just using a little bit of supplement, now they're able to achieve what they need to with their nutrition.

48:15So going back though to the executive function piece, can you explain to people what executive function is? Because I feel like it gets thrown around a lot, especially in the ADHD conversation, but we don't talk about the specifics of what it actually means and looks like. If your ADHD feels different across your cycle, postpartum or in perimenopause, ADHD in Women explains why hormones can change your brain and what you can do about it. Pre-order now and for a limited time, get the first chapter audio read by me, Dr. Jolene Brighton, for free. Plus a bunch of other bonuses like a free recipe guide and a PMDD workshop.

48:54Claim your bonuses at drbrighton.com slash ADHD and women. That's D-R-B-R-I-G-H-T-E-N.com slash ADHD and women. Yeah, executive function is so important, I think, for everyone to understand. But if you have any sort of neurological disease, an autoimmune disease, any chronic disease, any of them, all of them, you're a neurodivergent. You have any sort of mental health diagnosis, you have PTSD. Executive function is really important for you to understand. And I think understanding what executive function is can also help us stop blaming ourselves or like our, you know, seeing our inability or challenges with meeting our needs and navigating the day as something that's not just like this inherent weakness, you know, or failure.

49:44So executive function is, I think there's eight to ten different executive functions, but you can look at it as all of the different processes that your brain engages in for you to engage in a task or organize something. So thinking about things like planning, ranking things, ordering things, making decisions about timing, organization and planning and decision making, kind of those three buckets there. When we talk about executive functioning, there's a lot of conversation about Alzheimer's disease, neurodegeneration, neuroinflammation. And that's typically how it presents is some sort of impairment with executive dysfunction.

50:28ADHD is an impairment in executive dysfunction. PTSD can also impair executive dysfunction. most chronic diseases or autoimmune diseases because the the neuroinflammation that can result they also impair executive function now i think most people it's like okay so executive functioning is like when i'm working or when i'm driving or when i'm cleaning my house yep those are all executive functions and so is cooking and so is preparing a meal and making a grocery list and following a recipe and looking you know here's what i want to eat this week matching that up with different ingredients, ordering how to clean up from dinner.

51:08Like, okay, I'm going to clean off the table. Then I'm going to wash these dishes and I'm going to put these in the dishwasher. Those are executive functions too. And life with executive dysfunction is pretty tough. It's pretty tough. And you mentioned earlier, like the impact of some of these different hormones and neural hormones on executive function. We see changes throughout the menstrual cycle, which you would be more equipped to speak on. But this is something that I always mention to my clients who are menstruating and they have ADHD or they've experienced trauma because I'll notice these cycles where it's like, okay, we're in day 14 and their estrogen is really high and they're telling me that they're craving something or their mood has changed or they don't really feel like cooking.

51:56Then they're also blaming themselves for that. They're like, how do I just get it together? Like, you got to figure this out. And it's like, yeah, there is something happening in your body that is causing you. There's neurobiological underpinnings to all of our behaviors. And if we don't understand what's happening in our bodies, we can't take care of ourselves and understanding how, you know, our stress levels and our sleep and interactions that we have with people influence our executive dysfunction or executive functioning can be really pivotal and helpful for people to navigate the day and navigate their body.

52:28What do you think people are missing when it comes to you leveraging nutrition to support their executive function? I think the biggest variables that people need to consider to support their executive dysfunction isn't necessarily about the micronutrient or the macronutrient. And that's important. I don't want to insinuate that those are not important variables, But for most people, I think it's more accessible to start with meal timing, meal size, and also just an intentional and conscious practice of building their interoceptive awareness of, okay, here's what I'm noticing in my body. Here's my energy level on a scale from one to 10 or whatever.

53:13Here's my cognitive capacity. Do I have it in me to cook a meal today? And if you know that there are certain things or certain patterns or cycles in your life where certain events lead to you being exhausted and blown out, like after this podcast interview, I'm probably going to be socially done for the rest of the day. So I'm preparing my dinner tonight. It's going to take me 15 minutes. I'm making salmon. I'm going to use a rice and vegetable blend. I'm going to cook a little bit more vegetables. I'm going to throw that in the oven and I'm going to eat it. So it's going to take me five minutes or 15 minutes to figure out.

53:49And I'm going to lay on the floor while I'm waiting for that to finish. And I think it's like, yes, we would totally get along and I would be there with you and we would not talk or even look at each other. Exactly. Exactly. And my partner knows that, you know, my partner knows, and I think it's those types of things like the, the, the awareness and translating that awareness into practice is how, what can really help us with our executive function. And just by acknowledging like, okay, I go through this cycle in my life or this type of experience impacts me in this way. So here's a way I can take care of myself.

54:23Here's a way I can meet my nutritional needs. Here's a way to make sure that I'm not like ordering DoorDash or something later and eating something I don't really want to eat. I did a little bit of prep. I spent 30 seconds thinking about what I could make tonight, which I planned a few days ago. And that's what we're going to do. And I'm going to feel a lot better with this planning and the structure in my life than just kind of relying on my emotions and where my blood sugar would be if I don't eat dinner and how that's going to impact my brain and decision making and impulsivity. I find a lot of people, especially women who, this applies to everybody, but women especially who are raising kids, they're working full time, maybe they're going to school, they're spending time on social media, they're talking to their friends, exerting a lot of cognitive effort during the day.

55:12There's just sometimes truly nothing left when it comes time to cook dinner. And for some people, when we talk about these things, I'll introduce the idea of planning or just being proactive. And for some people that even sounds or feels like a burden because it's like, well, you know, God, that's one more thing I have to do. That's one more thing to think about. But sometimes we can think about these things in more simplistic ways that are more supportive than burdensome. Mm hmm. Yeah. And, you know, for women who are relating to this conversation, and I think this is a I'm going to share something because I think that the hyper vigilant, the foodies, wellness people will drop their job.

55:55But I'm as we're talking right now, I'm seven weeks pregnant last week. OK, so I had been like manic in a way of like and I don't use that word lightly. I want people to understand I'm not being like, I was like, no, I was hyped up on a lot of estrogen early in pregnancy. I was in that like ADHD honeymoon of all the projects, but also this voice was whispering like, it is coming for you. Your executive dysfunction will be through the roof as soon as progesterone really starts to hit in this pregnancy. And you're going to have to white knuckle it some days for the next six to 10 weeks. So knowing this is coming, I was in Costco last week and I saw they had a giant thing of hard boiled eggs, not cage free, not, you know, free range, not organic or anything.

56:48And I had a moment for sure where I was like, oh, you certainly you can hard boil some eggs. And I'm like, well, no, nausea is going to come. It's going to come for you. And I looked at this package and I'm like, listen, come next week, I'm probably not going to have the ability to think through protein, to think through how I'm going to get that. I need to start stocking my kitchen now with what I'm going to need. So for women who are like, what does this have to do with pregnancy? If you are an already virgin, I'm ADHD. So I have autism and ADHD because my brain likes to just mix it up. So with that, you have either one of those and you are hormonally sensitive.

57:30So you are going to be more sensitive, your brain, to the changes that happen with pregnancy, the changes of perimenopause, changes of postpartum, changes with the birth control, changes with coming off of birth control, changes with your cycle. Like all of that is going to, you're going to be more sensitive. You're more attuned to all of those changes because you've already have different operating neurological system and neurotransmitters. And I wish I had like tons of data on women to be like, and this is exactly what is going on. We have more of like broad theories of what's going on. But what you just talked about, I think is so important and something that so many women face, especially in perimenopause transition, because now they have to get more protein because sarcopenic obesity is staring them down.

58:16They want to dodge that. They're struggling with weight gain as well, but we're starting to see these hormonal shifts where it's hard to actually plan. Now, you are somebody who is also neurodivergent. So what ways are you successful in making sure you nourish your body? Yeah. Well, I just want to go back to the egg thing. The hard-boiled eggs have been a topic in my family with me because my parents hate that I cannot hard-boil eggs. I have an egg maker and I still buy the thing from Costco, the prepackaged or organic eggs. And they're so easy. I open them up. There's two eggs there. And that takes me 30 seconds.

58:53The sensory experience of cracking the eggs and peeling them, it takes me 10 or 15 minutes.

59:02So buying some things that are packaged for cognitive convenience. I don't know if that's a real term, but maybe just coined that cognitive convenience. You know, it's I think it's a great term because cognitive convenience means freeing up energy for the things that matter in your life. And I'm I'm here for that. Yeah. Like peeling eggs, not really important to me. But, you know, I can also see before I answer your question, you know, I think some people might be listening to this and going, oh, my goodness, like you don't even have capacity to like hard boil an egg or peel an egg. Like, how do you get through your day?

59:34And, you know, my question would be, you know, what supports and life experiences or what supports exist in your life? What life experiences have you had? What infrastructure do you have in your food environment that makes it conducive for you to spend a lot of time on food preparation and on organizing and planning for your meals? We all do not have the same food environment. So, you know, in terms of things that have worked for me to kind of ease the cognitive burden of food prep, gentle planning has been huge for me. not allowing myself to get to like this hanger state where my blood sugar is really low, my medication's wearing off, I'm feeling just like really frustrated and irritated.

1:00:15And for me, that looks like spending about three minutes with my partner every Sunday. I have a whiteboard on my fridge and I'll just be like, what do you want to eat this week? And we just go down the list. Most people I've found eat between like 15 to 25 of the same foods and meals over and over again. And that's certainly true for us. I am not someone, despite really liking this science of nutrition, I actually do not like cooking. I think it's exhausting, but I cook because it's important to me. And I know that I have to cook to survive. So I use a lot of, or plan a lot of meals that I can use the oven.

1:00:49I use, make a lot of sheet pan meals, bake a lot of things because I can season something, marinate it, you know, spend five to 10 minutes prepping it, put it in the oven. Okay. There's 30 minutes to an hour, depending on what I'm cooking. And I can just do whatever I need to do. I also blend a lot of things together. So when I make like rice or quinoa or some sort of grain with a vegetable, I just combine them together once they're done cooking. And then I can store that easily. I can use that as a side dish for any other meal that comes in the week. And then something else that is really important to me that I've noticed ever since I was a teenager, I just feel better cognitively, physically with a high protein diet.

1:01:28So I I eat about one gram per pound of body weight of protein a day. For me, that's like 205, 208 grams protein, which for a lot of people is a lot. And it is tough for me to get all of that through whole foods. So I use a little bit of supplementation. So I've used all kinds of different proteins throughout the years. I don't have any issues with dairy. I use a whey protein. I take some after my workout, like within an hour or two of my workout, depending on the timing. And then I have a smoothie every morning with two scoops of whey protein. So I get about 50 grams of protein in the beginning of my day.

1:02:02I have that smoothie before I take my medication, which I've noticed having that meal prior makes a big difference. And the other thing that I've done, which has been it has taken me years to do this. I might have just lost some people there. But I think one of the most important and significant things you can do to reduce the cognitive burden of food and the food noise and just the weight of food in your life is to commit to noticing how your body interacts with food and the food environment. So can you spend two weeks just being very intentional about, I've noticed when I eat meals that are.

1:02:45Really carbohydrate heavy that I feel this way after I eat them. Or, okay, if I eat a really carbohydrate dense lunch between 12 and one and I had a really stressful day, I don't feel great. If you can notice enough of those things and you run these little micro experiments where you're the sole participant, you're going to gather so much information and data about yourself that you're going to be able to write the owner's manual for your body. And you're going to know how to speed up and slow down at what you need and what you don't need, depending on what's going on in your life. So I think that's kind of the core theme of everything that I do to make nutrition easy, is I have spent years being intentional and conscious about how my body and diet interacts with my environment.

1:03:34I think this has been really helpful for people to hear about the on Sunday, just kind of structuring where things are giving permission to combine things like you see a lot happening on social media. And I will say so I used to be like when paleo was big, I was friends with all of the like the paleo foodie people. I'm a foodie. If you like to make food and you want to talk about food, I just want to hang out with you and eat food. So what I found out, though, is that a A lot of them weren't even eating the meals they were making. So you were seeing these beautiful videos, photos, everything going on, and they weren't even eating them.

1:04:07And they're like, my family didn't even like it. And I will say, if people are like, oh, they're a fraud. No, because I would eat their stuff. And I'm like, no, this is amazing. What are you talking about? And I think it's just really important to understand that it can be that simple. It does not have to be a production. I like to use with patients and within my family myself is like just the like build a bowl, build a bowl. Like you got to have a protein in there. So you're going to take this bowl and half of it's going to be vegetables. Just pick a vegetable. If it's just romaine lettuce is not like the most nutrient dense.

1:04:40No, but you check the box and like that really does wonders for your dopamine. And it will help reinforce that habit next time going around. We don't have to be perfect every time. You split that other side. I need a quarter of it to be protein and a quarter of it to be some kind of carbs. And so maybe it's the rice, it's the quinoa, it's sweet potatoes, it's squash. And why I like to teach that structure is because you can just create a checklist on your fridge that's like, here's proteins, here's vegetables, here's the carbs, and here's like a fat. Maybe it's olive oil put on top, maybe it's some avocado, maybe it's some pine nuts.

1:05:15And you just have these lists. And so when you've had cognitive overload in the day, you just look at this laminated little list that you made and you go to Home Depot or not Home Depot, Office Depot. That's the one. And get it laminated and have it on there and just see like, okay, I don't have to think this through. What's in the fridge? You could pull it off and look what's in the fridge. Just build the bowl and you're done. And I think it's things that are really simple and accessible that people will follow through on. And when we set up how many health nutrition cookbooks out there exist and you get in and it's like, this is 5 ,000 recipes and food that I have to procure from like, I don't know where you get this.

1:05:57This is a special order. And it becomes super overwhelming. And while I'm a big fan of like, if it looks weird to you, cause you're like, I've never seen it before in the market. Oh, you should probably find a way to eat that. Your microbiome will like it. But if you're struggling with just feeding yourself every day, we're not ready for that. We're not ready for that. Just keep it super simple. Yeah. And I think, you know, kind of bringing this conversation full circle, this is how the food industry exploits people because they know that so many people are experiencing cognitive overload. They know that so many Americans experience executive dysfunction and that they have some degree of neuroinflammation and that they have a thousand different things going on in their life.

1:06:36It is so much easier to go into the freezer, rip something open, pop it in the oven and forget about it. And and, you know, we still have nutritional needs. Our brains and our bodies still need things that we do not get from these foods. But these food companies don't don't really care about that because they make money regardless of whether we're nourished or not. So I think one of the most liberating things that we can do as individuals is, like I've been saying, learn how to take care of yourself with food, but also learn how your food environment and your life experiences influence what I call your food-related capacity, like your ability to think about food, plan food, and just navigate your relationship with food.

1:07:18And one other thing that I was thinking about as I was listening to you talk was really getting clear on what a meal actually is. I think a lot of people are still attached to this idea where it's like breakfast, lunch, dinner, or whatever the diet is saying. You have to eat four times or six times or whatever. you, you get to define meal. Ideally meals contain nutrients that you need at that time for that purpose on that day or in that day. Right. A snack plate that does not have, you know, isn't, you know, some things are cold, some things are hot. Like that, that's a meal. One thing, you know, that I sometimes will ask people is like, what, what is a snack to you?

1:07:58And sometimes they'll describe a meal and I'm like, okay, well, that's a meal because, you know, he has all these different components and nutrients. And sometimes a snack is not very nutrient dense. Sometimes it is. And I think just us taking back and regaining and building that awareness about how we interact within our food environment is really key to taking care of ourselves, regardless of who you are and, you know, your neurotype and, you know, whatever your diagnoses may be, you have to learn how to navigate your body and your relationship with food. Otherwise you're just out here like looking for rules and looking for more instructions to follow.

1:08:34And you don't ever really develop an understanding of how to take care of yourself. And that sucks. Yeah. As you were saying the snack plates, I'm like, charcuterie is like the savior of the neurodivergent brain. You can literally just be like, I'm doing, I'm going to wash the carrot and the cucumber. I'm throwing it on a tray. I'm like throwing some proteins on there. I get some cheese going, like there's some grapes, like, um, and it's interesting, right? Because that's the other part that I think doesn't get talked about enough is that eating is boring. Cooking food can be boring. Like it can be a really boring experience and to make it enjoyable, that's effort that maybe you don't have.

1:09:17And I think, um, you know, this is something that like, we're not allowed to talk about like, oh yeah, like I'm, I'm finding this thing being boring because people are like, suck it up. It's necessary for life. And yet some people with ADHD will have struggles with getting enough nutrients in with eating because the task is not just overwhelming. It's not just daunting, but it's like, how can I motivate to do the thing I find the most boring thing in the world? And I will say, this is something that I've had to learn from people from listening to them because I feel like the only place where my ADHD and autism play really well together in the kitchen because the autism is like, we have structure.

1:09:57There is a way that you do things and we only do things in this way. And the ADHD is like, well, what if we like throw marshmallows in there? Or what if we like, you know, try this? And then the autism is like, yeah, you can do that as long as you do it in the right order. And they'll play nice together. And I'm like, okay. So for me, it's really enjoyable. But in listening to patients and even women online, they're like, it is so boring. I feel like I'm in pain to have to think about food, to have to go to the kitchen, to do any of that. So I think we just have to, you know, acknowledge that aspect.

1:10:30And I want to, we talked about the macros, we talked about timing of eating, but when it comes to nutrients, you know, something interesting is that when it comes to ADHD, when it comes to PTSD, when it comes to autism, when it comes to autoimmune disease, you're talking about neuroinflammation, but also just for everybody listening, neuroplasticity, there are certain nutrients that we need to be taking in to support the brain in doing that. So can you talk to us a bit about that? Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, for those of you who are listening, you're learning new information, hopefully, or you're making a connection with something.

1:11:09This is neuroplasticity live. It's happening now. Whenever we learn, whenever we learn something, we heal from something, we grow from something that's ultimately neuroplasticity. It's our brain strengthening a connection, weakening a connection, maybe forming a new connection or reorganizing some things. Like I said earlier, the material basis of our existence of your brain is nutrition. The brain uses between 20 and 25 % of your total daily energy intake, which is pretty significant. And it needs a number of different micronutrients and macronutrients to do what it needs to do. So, you know, one of the most fundamental things is glucose, which is your brain's preferred source of energy.

1:11:51I see a lot of women who are, you know, they're following like a low-carb diet or ketogenic diet and they're feeling like crap, you know, during certain parts of their menstrual cycle. And it's like, okay, maybe the low-carb thing isn't really going to work for you, despite, you know, what you've been told. So we need to make sure that we have enough carbohydrate for our brain to do what it needs to do. Now, the ketones, ketone bodies that are generated in the body to provide a source of fuel for the brain when we're following a ketogenic diet or we don't have a sufficient amount of carbohydrate available, they are sufficient energy sources for the brain.

1:12:30But some people just don't feel great at eating a low-carb diet. And for those people, I say you don't have to. You do not need to follow a ketogenic diet to take care of your brain. So making sure that you have enough energy available, making sure you have enough glucose and carbohydrate available. Also thinking about things that create the structural components of different neural cells. So omega-3 fatty acids and DHA and EPA, they play a role in forming the myelin sheath and a lot of the structure that is necessary for synaptic function and neurocommunication and for our neurochemistry to do what it needs to do to generate thoughts and generate emotions.

1:13:08There was a paper published by a researcher from American University where she looked at nutrient profiles of people who had experienced post-traumatic stress and people who hadn't. And she found that omega-3 fatty acid deficiency was really common among people who have PTSD. I've seen some research suggesting that people with ADHD don't consume enough omega-3s either. Anecdotally, in my practice, I take two grams of DHA every single day. I notice a profound difference. I eat salmon like once or twice at most a week. I eat a lot of walnuts and almonds and cashews and things, but I feel better when I have a really high intake of DHA and I get that from a supplement.

1:13:52So EPA and DHA are really important for just maintaining the structural components of different neural cells. Can you explain the difference between EPA and DHA for people who might not know? Yeah. So there's actually my this is how I came into neuro nutrition. I was researching the impact of DHA on concussive injury recovery in school age athletes. And we have different types of fats. Some of them we, you know, we get different fats and different sources. And these omega three fatty acids are just really important for like membrane fluidity. So making sure that the cell membrane can do what it needs to do to let things kind of go in and out.

1:14:36We get omega-3 fatty acids from different nuts, you know, salmon, mackerel, you know, anchovies. I said nuts and started to list fish. Oh, my goodness. But fish are the best source. I mean, because the reality is, you know, there's a lot of times that I speak with vegans and they're like, well, just get all my omega-3. from nuts and seeds and plants. And I'm like, you're going to have to do algae supplement. There's no way to actually achieve the levels that we know have therapeutic benefits when you're eating only plants, unless you eat fish. But then it also takes a copious amount of fish. And anytime I share, like I do fish oil in my smoothies and I do salmon and my kids love sardines and anchovies.

1:15:26I do not, but I eat them in front of them. But I always get people online who are like, yuck, absolutely not. And I'm like, you may do better with a supplement. And if you already are like, yuck, then I recommend sticking that supplement in the fridge so that you never smell it, never taste it, never have a problem with it. Yeah, I find myself, most people that eat a diet that is the majority of their diet is ultra processed foods or it's not nutrient dense. You know, we sometimes I'll request blood testing and a lot of them have objective DHA and EPA deficiencies. And to your point about the therapeutic dose, that's really important for supplementation.

1:16:05I see a lot of people who are recommended by their primary care doctor or their cardiologist for preventive measures of atherosclerosis and vascular inflammation. Okay, we'll take an omega-3 supplement, but then they go out and they see 1 ,000 milligrams fish oil, but there's only like 200 milligrams of EPA and 300 milligrams of DHA. And we know that the therapeutic dose is actually into the thousands, especially for neurodegeneration. Some of these studies are showing an upwards of like one to four, maybe six grams of DHA and EPA a day. And you'd have to eat. I mean, you'd need to eat salmon every day and not to do that.

1:16:40And I don't think most people are doing that. So omega-3s are really important. And I also think something that everybody knows it's like, I need color diversity in my diet. I need polyphenols, but polyphenols like in curcumin and, you know, a compound that's found in green tea and matcha and, you know, resveratrol and just all kinds of things that give fruit and produce their color. They are so good for our brain. They make sure that, you know, the environment in terms of its toxicity and reactive oxygen species, what's going on in there is manageable for our cells to do what they need to do.

1:17:20And a lot of people who don't consume nutrient-dense diet have diets have a pretty low antioxidant profile or capacity. So whatever you can do to eat more color in your diet. And again, I know that's so boring. We've all heard that. But when it comes to brain health, your brain loves color and it loves those polyphenols. So that's really important. You mentioned magnesium earlier and sort of thinking about proteins and amino acids. And something that I think a lot of people would really benefit from understanding is when it comes to protein, those amino acids like tryptophan and like glutamine and tyrosine, those are all really important precursors that are necessary for your body to produce neurotransmitters like dopamine and serotonin and GABA.

1:18:10and some of these other things, if you are not eating a sufficient amount of protein, you might be experiencing like a mild protein deficiency and you're experiencing like the neuropsychological consequences of that. And you may not even be aware of it. So protein is not just about skeletal muscle preservation, but it is necessary for your brain to do what it needs to do. And I think, you know, right now there's also a lot of talk about get enough protein, focus on protein, and then we're not thinking about fiber. And then it turns into like, well, what about this? What about this nutrient? How do we sort through all of this?

1:18:44And this brings me back to, for those of you who might even be feeling a little like, okay, so was it magnesium? Is it this? What do I focus on? Start, ask yourself, what feels most accessible to me right now? Can I think about protein for a few weeks? Can I think about polyphenols in color? Can I think about fatty acids for a few weeks? Just pick one thing and notice how that shows up or doesn't show up in your diet, how eating certain quantities of these things in your diet makes you feel on a regular basis. And I think that is just building that awareness and coming back to your body is really important.

1:19:23I love that you're like, just take a moment to observe. You've said this several times in this conversation of like, just taking the moment to observe where you're at, because what this is doing is it's reinforcing that that nutrition is bio-individual and that you have to assess and ask what's true for you. And I think that, you know, this is the thing that's super frustrating is that to some degree, most of the time, there's some truth in what people are saying. Even the outrageous things, as outrageous as it sounds, there's some grain of truth in that. But we always have to come back to, is this true for me?

1:20:00So you were saying assessing protein, I think that's definitely important. You were talking about fiber, polyphenols, omega-3 fatty acids. I think people would wonder, what about B12? What about zinc? You hear a lot about these for ADHD, but also for neuroplasticity. Yeah. I mean, there is a whole list of nutrients that I could go down. Vitamin A, vitamin E, vitamin D, choline, zinc, copper, selenium, iron. There's so many things that are important for neuroplasticity. I think what's important for people to understand is the brain, nothing in the body, especially the brain is really working in isolation.

1:20:35So it's not like, okay, I have iron and then it does this one thing and then a cell is made. Like it's, it's not that, that simple. And I think that we've kind of presented it to people that way though. It's like, we see these ads and it's like, okay, magnesium can help you sleep better because it does this thing. It's not that taking that supplement does this, well, maybe at that dose, sure. But in context or a broader view, it's that these different nutrients are responsible for magnesium, hundreds of different things in the body that I cannot even begin to know where to start to list off. And I don't even know all of them.

1:21:11And same with iron. So I think what we need to strive for is understanding like all nutrients are equally important because they all work in synergy. The body is always communicating with other systems. One thing that I teach in my course for practitioners is what I call this neurobiological nexus. We have the neuroimmune system, the neurovascular system, the neuroendocrine system, the neurometabolism system. All of these things are happening all at the same time, and they all kind of need the same things. And the only way you're going to figure out what it is that you actually need is through experimentation and manipulating different variables in your diet and checking in with how you feel.

1:21:55Some people might feel better eating a diet that has more sources of B12 on a daily basis. They might feel really good with supplemental B12 and still being mindful of B12. I have IBD. I have experienced iron deficiency without anemia several times in my life now. One thing that I am very conscious of on a daily basis is my iron intake and making sure that I have enough iron because I know that I'm likely to develop a deficiency, whether I'm in exacerbation or not. And that's one little thing that I can do to take care of myself. So I think instead of, you know, having these conversations like these are the nutrients, because there's dozens and several different amino acids that our brain needs to form neurotransmitters and make sure that our neural cells can communicate, we need to really check in with how we feel and get a measure for how we're thinking.

1:22:53And we've kind of lost sight of that, I think. I want to ask you, what do you think is the problem with presenting nutrition and lifestyle as either a cure or a prevention to neurological conditions like ADHD or autism? Wow, that's a really good question. I think the problem with presenting nutrition and lifestyle interventions as the cure for neurodivergence is it's just coming from this place of having.

1:23:28here's this question again of like how we see neurodivergent people you know i think the harms of presenting nutrition and lifestyle interventions as curative is that we are pathologizing what i know to be and see as part of just a human experience um you know there's a lot of things in our life that um have been what's called medicalized and that essentially means There's been some part of the human experience that has been viewed socially and culturally by a certain group of people as being an inconvenience, essentially, or that it's pathological. So we see people demonstrating certain characteristics and qualities, and then we put a label to that.

1:24:11And then we try to, is this a disease? Is this pathology? Or is this just normal variation in human development? and humans just kind of come up with these definitions and we make this stuff up. Now, granted, that's a pretty ambiguous, generalized statement that I just made there. But nonetheless, you know, I think we can become so fixated on changing who a person is and changing who they are because we've been conditioned to believe that certain traits are pathological and bad. When in reality, what if we were to just accept and support these people and just allow them to assimilate into society and build a society and a culture where they have a space and they can actually fit in?

1:24:55And instead of spending all of this time and energy to fix a pathology or something wrong with them that may or may not actually be there, depending on your perspective, what if we just lived with these people and loved them and took care of them? And I think if we start, you know, trying to use nutrition and lifestyle to treat something that may just be inevitable that we can actually change, we set that person up for an eating disorder or, you know, obsessive compulsive disorder or body OCD. And just, you know, they feel like they're a pathology and they feel wrong. And I just I don't think that's it.

1:25:34Just that's that's just not it. Yeah. Well, to stay in the vein of being neuroaffirming, that neurodivergence, this is a neurotype. It's not a disease and it's not something that needs to be cured. However, we do see in the case of autism that there is a wide variation in terms of how people can present in the spectrum itself. Do you believe there is a place for nutrition, especially when you see children who are nonverbal, who are violent, who are in that level three support category? Yeah, well, I mean, I think it kind of comes back to my core message here of figuring out how food impacts that person's body and impacts their mind and their brain and how they function.

1:26:18And regardless of someone's neurotype, I would give the same recommendation. Like, let's try it. Let's see. You know, let's let's try to do this thing. Let's see what we notice. I think that there's a line, though, between, you know, a kid who's neurodivergent, who thinks differently and processes things differently. Are we trying to mask and hide their. Them, are we trying to mask them with some sort of intervention and get them to act like someone they're not? And then we see that as like, oh, this is an intervention. This has been effective here. Or are we just trying to like, are we trying to actually help them live a better life?

1:26:55And from what I see in this space of nutritional medicine, as it relates to, you know, autism and ADHD, we're not really doing that. We're not really coming at this from a place of like, how can this person eat in a way that supports their mind, brain and body's needs? it's like you need to eat these foods because you need to stop acting that way or you need to stop responding this way. And I just I just don't think that's it. I want to echo what you said, because so many times when I look at research studies that have positive outcomes, like we see ABA therapy, when you look at these things that say we were able to reverse autism, we improved their autism.

1:27:35I'm like, you taught them how to mask. And for people who don't know what masking is, masking is literal survival. It's why you and I right now, we're masking. We're masking. We're like, how do I articulate it in the way that people understand and the best? And that's why we'll be exhausted afterwards. Masking is incredibly draining to the nervous system. And it does have chronic disease implications, as we know. And so we do have to be very careful about that. What do you think medicine and healthcare providers, including functional and naturopathic medicine are getting wrong about neurodivergent people.

1:28:13I think what most healthcare professionals and functional medicine and naturopathic providers get wrong about working with neurodivergent people is approaching them as if they are the pathology or it's like you, you have through the biomedical lens. Yes, you have a neurodevelopmental disorder, but you're not, a lot of practitioners are not trained to understand how this person's lived experience or maybe not lived experience, how their being as a person has been influenced by how their brain works. So, you know, for example, I see on a lot of functional medicine practitioners websites where it's like conditions treated autism.

1:28:53And then you go to that page and say, well, here's how we treat all of these different symptoms of autism. I'm like, great. So I just envision a well-meaning, loving, caring parent who is probably so overwhelmed by their child going to one of these practitioners and just being like, can you please help me with this? Because I am dysregulated by them, not said this way, but they're feeling overloaded and dysregulated by their child. And the question is like, please fix them. Please help this not be our reality is kind of the request. and I get it. You know, like I really do get it when I think about my own childhood.

1:29:33And there's some research to back this up. Children who are gifted or neurodivergent or have a disability are more likely to be abused. I think that kids that are on the neurodivergent spectrum are more likely to be abused and neglected because, you know, if you're, how do you raise a child that is neurodivergent? Like nobody teaches you how to do that. And I think, you know, a lot of practitioners kind of bring that same perspective of like, okay, this child is pathological. We need to get rid of these aspects of their personality and how they express themselves versus what does this child need to meet their nutritional needs?

1:30:12And how can I support these parents in learning and understanding that and doing that in ways that are within their means and capacity? you. And that's also, you know, feeds into what you were talking about before, like as a society, if we shifted to accept and create that community that surrounds these people, then these parents wouldn't feel as overwhelmed. I see this. It's a very difficult thing. As you and I are talking right now, it's autism acceptance month. And you see the autistic moms, moms of autistic children, some of which are autistic themselves, some of which are not, And they really center themselves in this conversation.

1:30:51And the autistic community gets very angry. And I can understand why actually autistic people are angry. And as a mom who has also worked with these parents, I look at this and I'm like, this is somebody that is hurting. This is somebody that's dysregulated. This is somebody who, because of the way that autism and even ADHD is viewed, it's a lot of a moral failing as a mother. Like you created this, right? I mean, there are, go search the podcast space and you will find hot takes everywhere about mom was obese, mom didn't eat this, mom did this, mom, mom, mom, mom, mom is the problem and she created the autistic child.

1:31:34Therefore, this is her burden to bear because she made this, she created this, she did something wrong. So therefore, she should have to struggle. And I think we have to hold space for, we need to send our autistic voices and like we can't solve the issue that is a societal issue through nutrition alone or by saying i mean it's insane that we ever expect that a single parent which is often what happens because one has to still work can be the sole provider and caretaker of a special needs child on you know and this is not just autism of any kind without ever getting support or even a break. And I think that is something that's also very problematic that isn't talked enough about in the conversation of like, if your child is dysregulated and there's never space for you to regulate yourself, how can you co-regulate that child?

1:32:31It's not going to happen. Yeah. How do you do that? And I mean, it's like, you cannot expect someone to know how to guide someone else through their body and the experience of their existence when they don't even know how to do that for themselves. And, you know, I have, you know, I've always kind of felt like an outlier in this child abuse, childhood trauma community, because I don't have any bone in my body that is angry at my parents for what they did or what I experienced as a kid. I have so much empathy and compassion. And I also acknowledge, you know, I didn't deserve to be treated that way.

1:33:08Yeah, maybe they were doing the best. If that's their best, all that kind of sucks. But also I understand their childhood and I get it. Not saying that it was okay. I'm not absolving them from whatever the responsibility may be. But, um, I, I think that there's this perspective that like, you know, there's no room for the parent in this conversation. I completely agree with you. Like let's, let's center the people who have lived this experience and have, um, you know, insight to share with us. Um, and you know, being a parent of a neurodivergent child or a child with a disability, it's really fucking hard.

1:33:44You know, it's, it's really tough. And if you don't learn how to navigate your own body, how can you possibly, you know, help someone else do that, which is your point. And I think this brings us back to, again, like these systemic and institutional structures and barriers that make it impossible for people to have support or get access to support that they actually need. You know, I grew up in, like I said earlier, really dilapidated home, but it was in a rural area. You know, I drove 50 minutes each way with my parents to see my pediatrician. We had to go out of state. We had the same childhood.

1:34:16I grew up in the sticks too. That was totally like... Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this was like one elementary school, two intersections, like, you know, very, very small town. Oh, I remember when they put in the first stoplight. Oh, that's exciting. Yeah. We drove to go see it. It was like a whole moment. It's exciting. Yeah. We had the one main intersection, two gas stations. And I remember there was a subway. And like that was, you know, it was a food desert. There was no grocery store, nothing like that. There was like Junior's General Store, you know, by the fire department. But, you know, when you grow up isolated, you know, my mom was very far away from her parents.

1:34:52You know, they did live with us for the first couple of years of my life. But when they moved, they were a thousand miles away. And when you have complicated family dynamics where you don't have a support system and you don't have the privilege of hiring, you know, any sort of support and you have to work, you know, of course you're just going to be looking for like somebody, please solve this for me, like take this for me. And you're seeing it as a pathology. You don't even have time or capacity to sit down and think about this stuff that we're sitting here talking about. So, um, you know, I, I just, I think what we need to do is move towards a, you know, I'm a very nuanced thinker, like always see multiple levels and perspectives.

1:35:30And I kind of think that's the cure for a lot of what we're needing right now. We need to accept that there is nuance to all of this and that there's more than one way of being and one way of living and one way of existing. And we need to figure out how to do that together. I want to talk about the restrictions and the elimination diets that you see a lot of functional medicine providers tout as this is the thing that is going to help your child who is autistic, has ADHD, is having behavioral issues. Maybe it's not named yet. I constantly see posts about this and knowing the vulnerability of the community, it's something that I'm like, you are doing harm full stop without exception.

1:36:17Your intentions may be good, but it is so clear to me that you do not actually understand these conditions enough to understand that making a blanket statement of restriction, restriction, restriction can cause detrimental harm in this community. Can you talk about that? Yeah. I personally never recommend elimination diets or overly restrictive diets. I don't think anybody should be unnecessarily prescribing restrictive diets because number one, And that degree of intentional restriction requires a lot of cognitive effort. And a lot of people, when they remove things from their diet, they're told, take out corn, wheat, and soy, and dairy, and gluten, all of these things, and sugar.

1:36:58But what do you replace it with? Where are you getting that energy from? And for people who have really low degrees of nutritional literacy or culinary literacy, they don't know how to cook, well, I'm going to process foods then. I'm going to have to stand there in the grocery store and read all these labels and figure out what I can and can't eat. And if I'm needing to do this for my child who might have sensory processing challenges or might have interoceptive awareness challenges, or maybe they have some other disability that just makes it difficult for them to eat. Yikes. The risk of eating disorder with that as well is astronomical.

1:37:37You know, the association between there's a greater risk of developing multiple different types of eating disorders and disordered eating. If you're neurodivergent or of PTSD or ADHD or, you know, any number of things with these elimination diets. I think that a lot of the elimination diets in the functional medicine and naturopathic space are kind of used as a Hail Mary a little bit. It's like, well, we're just going to eliminate all these things and we'll just reintroduce it. And hopefully this works. I don't know. There's actually not a ton of evidence. There was a study recently that was grossly misrepresented by a lot of people that were in this space.

1:38:15And most of us don't know how to critically appraise research. And that's demonstrated in our public health, which is not an individual failing, though. I think that's another systemic thing as it relates to nutritional and health literacy. But, you know, I think recommending an elimination diet is it's leading with the assumption that the food is the problem again, you know, and what someone is experiencing might not have anything to do with food. Like, yes, food does influence our neurobiology, but that's that's also not a great experiment either. Like, OK, we're going to eliminate all of these different things from your diet and then we'll just try to, you know, hopefully you make it through it for 12 or 16 weeks.

1:38:59That's not great practice. And something else I've also seen is people following these restrictive diets for a very, very long period of time, like six, eight months or longer. And then, you know, they reach this point where they're just physically depleted, they're cognitively completed, and they develop so much food fear that they are terrified to reintroduce things. Or they become convinced that they have like an allergy or a histamine intolerance or reaction. and some people do have histamine reactions to food, but it's difficult when you're following these elimination diets for long periods of time to differentiate between, am I having a physiological response to the anxiety about this food or is it a reaction to the food?

1:39:45And that can be tough to kind of sort through as well. Yeah. And I certainly think, you know, for people listening, because there will be people who are like, well, I did, you know, an AIP diet. It changed my life. I did elimination diet. It changed my life. Absolutely valid. And I'm one who will also say like, if we've got someone struggling with acne, for example, and polycystic ovarian syndrome, we know that dairy can be a driver in some individuals. So we might test that and see, is that true for you? There has been research and it needs to be replicated for us to truly understand that some autistic individuals actually will have antibodies, that they mount a response in when dairy comes in, they're going to have this kind of pseudo autoimmune response that's actually disrupting folate metabolism.

1:40:33So that might be true for that, you know, one set of people. So I want people to understand it's not that food can't be a problem or that you might not need to eliminate something and test, but the eating disorder piece, I think is a huge one. When you are speaking to the neurodivergent community, especially with autistic people who love to get a very black and white fixed kind of mindset about certain things. It's not true for everybody, but I'll speak for my personal experience, man, the food pyramid messed me up. Worst thing to ever happen to me. That gets introduced to me. My autistic brain's like, I love this.

1:41:10You mean like super structured. I have to eat six grains a day. I can count that, all this stuff. Worst thing I did in my body. I had so much inflammation. I had so many problems. Like I look back at that and I'm like, oh, And what was that? That was government guidelines. This wasn't an influencer. This wasn't an elimination diet, but it's how easy that is. And it was really through my learning and understanding that the only thing that matters is how I feel in my own body. And then I have to constantly test what's true for me. Not like every single day. So people are listening, but in different phases of my life, like just because like, you know, I think especially as women, we have major phases and transitions in our life where things are going to change.

1:41:52And once it was true for me that I could eat all these things, then it was fine. Now maybe it's like, I can eat that, but I can't eat it the same way that I used to. I have to pair that with more fat and protein. And those things change. And I think that's the way we need to really be framing things. I think you've done so well in this conversation is like, what is true for you? And also that there is no like one size fits all when it comes to this. I mean, when you consider, I think a lot, like I think about this a lot, how people are like, there's the rise of autism and there's so much more autism now.

1:42:29And when I say like, well, I want you to look at the, how the diagnosis has changed. Look at how the DSM changed. We knew there was a spectrum decades before it ever became a thing. It wasn't until 2015 that it would be acknowledged that ADHD and autism could coexist. And what was that based on? Mostly how easy you could make the provider's job, not on whether or not that was true. It was how true, you know, how easy does make the provider's job? The DSM has been flawed, incredibly flawed. The way that psychiatric medicine has been taught and done, incredibly flawed because it's not always patient centered because it's very difficult.

1:43:06So we can't always be, you know, you have to think about the provider too. And so when we look at all of this and it's like, yes, we are seeing more cases of autism. You were not diagnosed until your twenties. I didn't get diagnosed until my forties, which, um, is really, I don't know how people have been to you, but people have said to me like, well, if you could go that long in your life, obviously it wasn't that problem. I'm like, if I could tell you how hard I cried when I got my diagnosis and I was like, I'm not like a total weirdo broken person. I just got a different operating system and like the validity and the way I've been able to like basically be compassionate with myself, understand myself, work with myself.

1:43:46But it's all to say that, you know, we are seeing more diagnosis of autism. It doesn't mean that we haven't always existed, but we are seeing there are, you know, these severities, right? These extremes on the spectrum where people are really struggling. What do you think medicine practitioners across the board can do differently to start supporting the narrative of like, we can support symptoms without trying to change the neurodiverse individual. Yeah. Well, I think one of the biggest things we can do is start asking the person that we're trying to treat questions and try to understand their, well, one, acknowledge their humanity, that they're not just this pathology and this, you know, sack of symptoms that's sitting in front of you that you need to figure out how to erase a mask.

1:44:41Um, but, but also figure out and reflect rather on how have my life experiences as a practitioner, how has that shaped my perception of this person that I'm sitting with right now in front of me? And, um, how has my training shaped my perception of this person? What may I not know? Um, critical thinking, honestly, it's just, you know, coming into these relationships, um, you know, with a perspective that you are there to provide support and care and resources. You're not there to dictate or be this person's health ruler. You're there to be a guide. You're there to be a strategist. You're there to help them figure out how to take care of themselves.

1:45:21They're not there to make you happy. Your patient is not there to make you happy in the same way that a parent's child does not exist to make the parent happy. So I think we really have to reconsider the dynamic of the relationships that we have with our patients. And I would send the same message to researchers as well. You know, we're working with people and asking them to share their body with us and share very intimate, personal details when we interview people or we go through or we put them through some sort of research. And maybe to some of us, it's just another day at the job. But to them, that's a pretty significant interaction and participating in these types of interactions with healthcare care professionals can be life destiny altering.

1:46:03And I think that we need to hold that responsibility and the reality of that with the care and respect that it deserves. You know, it's interesting because I'll have providers argue with me like, oh, well, I get fantastic results. And, you know, they'll argue back about how they're just like the best in this arena. And it's always a red flag when they say cure autism, because I'm like, you can't cure the genetics that were laid down. And I always make this really clear to people, like the genetics are what autism is, where we land on the spectrum is the symptom expression, which is influenced by epigenetics.

1:46:43Food is one piece of that. And when I'm talking with providers that are quite frankly being very egotistical, I will ask them, how many of your patients unmask in front of you? Oftentimes they're like a deer in headlights and they're like, what do you mean unmasking in front of me. Yeah. And I'm like, I want you to ask your patient, do you feel safe unmasking in front of me? Because if they, if they don't like, you have to ask, are you actually working for them with them in partnership? Or are you now giving them another set of rules and a way that you expect them to behave? And now they're showing up in this way because they don't want to let you down, especially if they like you.

1:47:26I mean, that's like a big part of masking is that we want to be liked. We want you to be happy with us. We want to study this interaction and make sure that like you feel good here as well. I think sometimes people see masking as being like this nefarious thing where you're pretending to be something else. I'm like, actually, it's a whole lot of effort for your benefit because we really want you to be happy and we really like you. So it's something that if you are a practitioner listening to this, I want you to sit back and ask yourself how many patients actually unmask in front of me. And if I don't know, let me start asking them because your outcomes may not be what you think they are because that individual is highly masking.

1:48:08And what are we talking about here? We're talking about mostly adults that are going in and seeking help, but it can also be children. and it's, um, I don't know about you, but I can always pick out the autistic kid. Who's not even diagnosed yet at a party. They find me every time they don't talk to other kids. They're talking to adults and then usually me because I'm engaging with them. Um, but it's something that I just watch these interactions play out and everybody's like, I don't know what's wrong with my kid. Like they won't play with the other kids. They only want, she only wanted, I was just at a birthday party.

1:48:41All she wants to talk about is unicorns, unicorns, unicorns, unicorns. And I'm like, you know what, little girl, go off. No one wanted to hear about my geckos when I was a little girl. So like, I will sit here and I will listen to you about your unicorns. Like you just, you just go off about your, um, unicorns. But that's just all to say that even kids are out there trying to mask as well and trying to play the role. Because as I remember in my autism assessment, the thing that I said that actually brought me to tears is that, and I don't even remember the question that was asked, but it was when I answered that, I feel like everybody else got a manual to how to play the game of life.

1:49:21And I have been struggling my entire life to figure out how to just play with others. And I'm constantly losing. And I don't know why I don't have the manual. And I just started crying. And I was like, Oh my God, like, that's literally been my life. And it is most autistic individuals experience. And I just share this for people listening, because if you're not autistic, you may not understand that. And that is also why we find ourselves in these slippery slopes of like, this diet works, and this thing works. And like, this is the thing. And it's because like that person's trying so hard to play your game.

1:49:57Wow, yeah, there was so much there. Yes, you know, to all of that. And you bring up the concept of psychological safety and the importance of that in the therapeutic relationship. And it's something that the conventional healthcare system, especially psychiatry here in the U S does not give any consideration to whatsoever, even though it is paramount to producing any sort or having some sort of therapeutic potential with your client. I know in my case, you know, I have been, I'm going on year 17 of therapy next year. I've been in therapy about half my life. And, um, I did not, you know, well, this, this was mess in your case.

1:50:31Like I really, one thing I've appreciated about you and you sharing your story online is you're like, yeah, you were late diagnosed and the late diagnosis came as a result of negligence and potentially malpractice. You know, I don't know the full story, but in my case, you know, I was in therapy. It wasn't until year 12 or 13 that I had a therapist who spent, I could tell she was working up to something with me in a way that I'd never experienced with other therapists before. And it was that same year where she had suggested getting the neuropsych evaluation and explained why she had this suspicion.

1:51:05that was also the first year where I was able to really start trauma therapy because I finally felt I was like, wow, this person sees me like, okay, I am willing now to share things about myself with you in ways that I have not shared, you know, with, with any other provider before. And most of us have these transactional relationships with our clients where you can't really establish psychological safety in what, seven, 10, 15 minutes, you know, with your primary care doctor or whatever. And I think that's also part of the reason a lot of people go to and seek out integrative and functional and naturopathic medicine, because you're getting more time with a provider.

1:51:41And that's really important. And ideally you find someone who creates that safe environment and you feel that you can unmask. But for me, like I'm still working on what that even looks like. You know, right now I'm still in a space to be completely transparent where I don't even put my psychiatric history down on an intake form because I don't want any sort of stigmatization because when I have, even in the past couple of years, I've felt so infantilized and I felt so misunderstood or I felt like, you know, people would see that autism diagnosis and they would just be like, okay, whatever. Anyway, you know, I just have no concept of the implications of that in the context of our relationship.

1:52:22So I think what you're speaking a lot to is we have to shift the conversation to quality of life. And instead of saying, what's the root cause for your dysfunction, right? And let's be really fair. No matter what medical paradigm you were trained in, if you are in your thirties, forties, fifties, you were taught that autism was one of the worst things that could be diagnosed. I remember sitting in med school and, um, and this is like the first hint that I was like, wait a minute, because they were like, Oh, autistic children don't make eye contact. And I was like, I don't make eye contact. Like I never make eye contact.

1:53:04I like, and people are probably like, who know me in real life are going to be like, yes, you do. I look at your forehead. Okay. Like I'll out myself. I don't. And I was like, it's, it's difficult for me to make eye contact. It takes a tremendous amount of energy. And I don't even know why we need eye contact. Like I'm like, you know, I'm just sitting here, like having this whole conversation in my head. And then they're like, oh, but autism just affects little boys. It's a little boy disease. If you're a girl, you don't have autism. And I was like, oh, okay. So maybe I'm like safe. I don't know.

1:53:35Um, but there's just so much that we have gotten wrong about it. And then to now assert that like, we can find the root cause or we can, it's like really because we still don't understand what's going on. And, you know, as I said to you before we ever hit the record button, you know, everybody wants to find the way to prevent autism. What happens when they learn that autistic people make autistic babies? We've been there before. It hasn't been that long ago where forced sterilizations was part of like U.S. practice where even women weren't consenting to it. That's what it's called forced, but women didn't even know.

1:54:15They didn't even know. So if you had something, you're like, I don't want to put this on my chart because of the way I will be treated. It is so much worse for women. But it is something that I'm like, you know, I see these really big names in health. I see leaders in, you know, health and they're touting this message. And I'm like, how are you going to sleep at night? if we decide that, yes, it's that autistic people make autistic babies and that's the cause of autism and we want to still cure that. I think we have to shift the conversation to quality of life. When it comes to being autistic, when it comes to having ADHD, when it comes to PTSD, as you've brought up, we have to look at quality of life, which actually raises the question that we hear a lot of is that trauma causes neurodiversity in, especially in the realm of ADHD, we hear that conversation a lot, but because you had childhood trauma, that's what caused your ADHD.

1:55:16What does the research say about that? Yeah. You know, it's definitely not my area of expertise, despite having the lived experience, but my understanding of the research is that their trauma does not cause a neurodevelopmental disorder. You know, like it's kind of a misunderstanding of what ADHD is, you know, It starts in development. And I think it's more accurate to say that traumatic stress, toxic stress, or childhood adversity causes other functional brain changes and neurobiological consequences that can change the severity or intensity of those ADHD symptoms. So if you have areas of the brain that are more excitable or areas of the brain that are hyperaroused or hypoaroused as a result of trauma, and you already have some altered altered neurochemistry or some different anatomical differences as a result of ADHD.

1:56:06I think they, you know, they're, they're kind of amplifying each other, you know, and they're, they're interconnected. Yeah. I, I personally don't, um, I have not read or seen anything compelling enough to convince me that trauma causes ADHD. Whenever I see people spouting that, I just think you want to know the most traumatic thing for somebody who has ADHD or autism, it's being undiagnosed and having the expectation that you should be neurotypical with absolutely no support. And so it's very hard to say that trauma caused something, especially in the context of childhood trauma, as you said, because if your child is neurodivergent, odds are the parents are neurodivergent.

1:56:49And if they never, they didn't know that about themselves, they don't know how to take care of themselves, but also they don't know how to parent that child. Trauma happens. And it may not, it's not even the intention. It's not, I think it's really important for people to understand. This is not like people are full on beating their children kind of trauma. It can be getting dysregulated and screaming at your child who like, you know, spilt the milk everywhere. And that happens repetitively in different contexts because you're so dysregulated. And it's all about, does the organism interpret that as a trauma?

1:57:21And so to me, I'm always like, chicken or egg, right? We can't really say. And then it's always the flaw that I find so often in these studies that are like, this is what led to having an autistic baby. And I'm like, was the mother autistic? Was the father autistic? Oh, we didn't check that. I'm like, of course you didn't check that. Because that's not compelling for you to get your next research grant. Like, I mean, that's maybe it's not so, you know, monetarily driven as I'm framing it right now and more short-sighted that like you actually don't understand the people that you're studying. Because again, we don't tend to send to the voices of these individuals.

1:57:59And, you know, for every woman listening, this is very much how women's health is as well. We don't necessarily center the voices of women. We look at what happens to men and we think that's good enough. We'll either use that or we'll just modify it a little bit. And I think we have to really start reframing these conversations. In line with trauma, for people who are listening, how can they leverage nutrition as one vehicle of support in healing their trauma? It's really what I've been saying, Dr. Brighton. It's learning how your life experiences have shaped your relationship with food and your body and your health.

1:58:37And that requires conscious and intentional effort to do that. And it's not easy and it takes time. You know, if I wanted to figure out how to make$50 million this year, I would create a trauma diet and I'd create like a trauma supplement protocol and, you know, just sell that. But that's, that would be, you know, the biggest grift of the year because there is no same with ADHD, same with autism. There is no supplement. There is no diet that is going to cure any of this, but there are ways of eating and different dietary patterns and different bioactive compounds in food and different compositions of macronutrients in our meals where we can learn how to eat and feel better and think better and and just enjoy our existence better by giving our body what it needs but before we can do that we have to learn how to do that Ah, so well said.

1:59:27Well, thank you so much for taking the time to sit down and chat with me. This has been a very insightful conversation. I know it's going to help a lot of people, not just who are struggling with food, but those who are looking to feel validated in their experience. So I really appreciate you. Yeah, thanks for having me. This has been great. This summer, no excuses. Double down when everyone else disconnects. At Equinox, that's high performance living. Iconic spaces built to inspire, personal training backed by real data, unlimited signature classes, including Pilates and HIIT. elevate your post-performance ritual with saunas and steam rooms as well as innovative treatments at the spa everything you need to lock in this summer and unlock your potential at equinox start today at equinox.com fall is the perfect time to refresh and reorganize your space at the home depot find power tools and tool sets starting at 50 to help tackle diy projects home updates and more.

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