Divorce Rate in America: Why Women File & What Menopause Has to Do With It

0:00Tell us why couples who fight regularly are not more likely to get divorced. Because when we think of fighting, fighting is a wonderful thing. When you're fighting, that means that you have some level of emotional investment. What is the one thing that men are consistently doing that's unknowingly sabotaging their relationships? For a lot of women, they feel a lot of pressure around touch and touchdown equating to sex. How can men listen so that their wives or partners feel heard rather than going into that solution-oriented problem-solving mode? Problem-solving when someone's upset is an invalidation.

0:35They just want you to... Leanne Bornman. If you think your low libido is a you problem, it might actually be an ADHD problem no one ever explained. Dr. Leanne, therapist, educator, and leading researcher on ADHD, relationships, and sexuality, has dedicated her work to helping neurodivergent adults navigate intimacy in ways that actually fit their brains. Today, she's breaking down why ADHD disrupts desire, how to stop the shame spiral, and the practical shifts that can help you reconnect with your body and your heart. If you had 60 seconds in an elevator with a husband who is feeling like, my relationship might be heading down the road towards divorce.

1:16What would you tell him? I would tell him. So good, so good, so good. New summer arrivals are at Nordstrom Rack Stores now. Get ready to save big with up to 60 % off brands like Rag & Bone, Levi's, Adidas, and Free People. Join the Nordic Club to unlock exclusive discounts, shop new arrivals first, and more. Plus, buy online and pick up at your favorite rack store for free. Great brands, great prices. That's why you rack. This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome? That's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks.

2:02Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required, compatibility and availability varies 18+. Welcome to the Dr. Brighton Show. where we burn the BS in women's health to the ground. I'm your host, Dr. Jolene Brighton, and if you've ever been dismissed, told your symptoms are normal or just in your head, or been told just to deal with it, this show is for you. And if while listening to this, you decide you like this kind of content, I invite you to head over to drbrighton.com, where you'll find free guides, twice-weekly podcast releases, and a ton of resources to support you on your journey.

2:42Let's dive in. What is the one thing that men are consistently doing that's unknowingly sabotaging their relationships? My clinical observation from words of all the women that I've worked with, it's the her touch equals sex. It is the woman wanting to initiate a hug, a grab from behind. And then all of a sudden it's like, oh, okay, we're ready to go. like yeah and then a woman generally isn't they're just looking for affection and for some couples and dynamics this can work wonderfully you know depending on where you're at in terms of your sex drive but for a lot of women they feel a lot of pressure around touch and touch then equating to sex and I don't think men do this uh inherently to be a perv or a annoyance yeah but it is something that I see quite often that is causing a rift in the relationship and the over-the-time build-up of just like, I don't want to touch you anymore.

3:44And then the disconnect starts. No, definitely. And you know, in my opinion, I think one of the biggest obstacles men face in being in relationships with women is that they've taken advice from other men. And so when you, I didn't expect this to be your first answer, but when you say this, I'm like, oh, So this is something that you would see some male coach going viral online being like, men, if she gives you a hug, that's your open invitation. So what does this do to relationship over time? Because this episode isn't about dragging men for everyone listening. We really want to help men be successful in relationship with women.

4:23So if you are a woman and listening to this and you have a partner who is male, pass this episode along because we're going to give a lot of tips today. Yeah. So for a lot of women, when they're initiating touch and it is being reciprocated as let's go, that again, pressure. And for a lot of women, they're maybe not ready. Think about like the parents, the moms, the dynamics in the house, like going into the bedroom takes a lot of energy and mental attention. And if you're just hugging your partner and then all of a sudden it's like, oh, let's go. It's like, no. Well, guess what's going to end up happening?

5:00She's going to learn to avoid that that touch isn't safe because that touch means sex. And unfortunately, a lot of people, and this comes just packed from our upbringings, we're not taught how to be in relationship. Really not. We kind of all suck at communication. No one really gives us this book on how to do it. So instead of saying to your partner, like, hey, I've noticed when I touch you, you just want sex and it's making me uncomfortable. People just start to avoid. They stop touching. And then that disconnect starts happening. So when a person is getting advice from other people like, oh, she wants you, maybe yes, she wants you, but maybe she just wants emotion.

5:36Maybe she just wants nurture in that moment. She doesn't want sex in that. I can imagine a man listening right now is like, how do I tell the difference? How do I tell if like her touch means it's go time or her touch means it's just cuddle time, right? And I think this is where like, you're going to hear me repeating myself all the time. You don't have to guess. This is where you have to stop being a mind reader and just ask. Say, hey, does that touch mean you want to do something or does that touch mean you just want to hug? I know that takes like the sexy and the romance out of it when you have to straight up ask somebody what they want.

6:09But I can't tell you how many couples I've worked with, but the second they start initiating communication and getting out of your own head, it creates a space of safety where now you're touching more. And that's the whole point. You want more touch that equals connection rather than interactions that are causing you to feel disconnected. Well, I'm glad that you answered that because that was going to be my question is like, how do people communicate it? I often will hear things that like communication makes it feel less sexy. And I feel, and I'd love to get your perspective on it, that's because of how it's been portrayed in the media.

6:43It's like, this is how it should be. So we think this is the way that it operates. but what I'm hearing from you is that reality is very different than what we've been shown on TV should be our relationship. Yeah. And again, like when we think about this idea of like, how can a person know my partner wants X, Y, and Z, not a mind reader. And yes, it is not a romantic gesture to be like, Hey, do you want to do X, Y, and Z? Is this me? I get it. I do. I understand it, but, you know, the bigger issue is that if your relationship is creating space where she doesn't feel safe, and when I say safe, I don't mean that you're verbally or physically abusive.

7:23It's just like comfort, right? If she doesn't feel safe to say, I'm looking to just have a hug because I need to just feel connection. The question then becomes, how can you create connective experiences and interactions that are going to create safety where you guys can just be open with one? it's the most empowering thing. Don't have to be a mind reader. The amount of stress in relationships that I see constantly where one person, specifically more so the man, because again, we're talking about the upbringing messages we've received. No, the man is the problem solver. He should know everything.

7:56He's the warrior. No, you do not in this realm. And when you can release yourself from that and lean into curiosity and collaboration and conversation, it is so awesome to see when my client can do it because it's so free-powering. Yeah. We're going to get into more like tangible, actionable things for people today. But I want to ask you, if a man thinks his marriage is fine, what are the subtle signs that should make him stop and pay attention? That's actually a really awesome question. So the first thing that comes to my mind is I think of initiation. And why I go to initiation is because what I've seen clinically is that there are a lot of women that aren't the initiator.

8:40Now, that doesn't mean that there's something wrong in your relationship, but it is a great place to pause because if you're the one that's always initiating and your partner is reciprocating, okay, why? Ask yourself, like, is it because she just isn't our initiator? Again, that's fine. But is there a thing there where now maybe she's showing up because she feels she has to and you're not realizing it? That's a really great place to just pause and ask. Another thing I like to think about is who is taking on all of the mental load in your home, right? Who's doing the scheduling? Who's, if you have kids, like doctor's appointments, after-school activities, friendships, tutors, you name it.

9:21Are you going to work? Is she also working? But then also taking on all of this, that's another great place to pause and ask, is she doing okay? Does she need me to check in and be like, can I do anything? Can I take anything off your plate because we get so used to being on this go, go, go, like robotic lifestyle, right? We don't think like, hey, is she okay? And a lot of the times the woman, because of the scripts of she's the nurturer, she's the caregiver, she's the superhero, right? She may not say anything. And so you might think, yeah, everything is fine until it's not. I think those are two really great places to observe and pause and see if you can check in with your partner.

10:01Okay, I want to play two truths and a lie. And so we're going to ask, I'm going to make three statements. We're going to ask the audience, go into YouTube, leave a comment, let me know which one you think is the lie. We'll give you some time to do that and we'll come back to those. So firstly, most divorces are filed by women. Second, couples who fight regularly are more likely to divorce. And the third statement is the number one reason women leave marriage isn't infidelity. So I'm going to give you some time to answer everyone who's listening. Run over to YouTube, leave us a comment. What do you think is the lie?

10:35And I want to ask you, while they're doing that, what's your spiciest opinion about why marriages fail that most therapists won't say out loud? I don't know. When I say I don't know, I don't know if other therapists may say this out loud, but this is what I observe. I don't think it's the communication issue as the number one. It is people trying to perform. in their relationships instead of being authentic in their relationships that are failing the relationships because of the scripts, the narratives, the expectations. When you think of what it's like to be a man, what it means to be a woman, what it means to be mom, what it means to be in a relationship, a marriage, and you're going into these things with this idea of how you should be and you stop being who you want to be.

11:21And then yes, communication ends up being part of that. But that right there, that is what's killing a lot of relationships is showing up and not being your authentic self or not feeling confident to be your authentic self and throwing the scripts out the window and making your own script. I think that is a hot take because I think the script among therapists is to say communication, is to always say communication. And so I think that's a lot for people to really think on is like, how am I not myself when I show up in a relationship? And I think you're right. Like, you know, we know that initially when couples get together, there often is in that honeymoon phase of everybody being their best, right?

12:03Showing their best, showing up their best. And that starts to erode over time. But it's interesting to hear that from you, that like there can still be this playing the part that we think we're expected to play that's sustained in a relationship. Yeah. And I think I would take it even one step further. A lot of the times people, when you ask them, what does it mean to be your authentic self? It's a hard question for people to answer because when you think about how you grow up in society, how many times are you really given the opportunity to be your authentic self, right? Like how much pressure and judgment is placed on you in many interactions that you're having.

12:39So when I ask my clients, who are you? They don't necessarily know. And that right there is like a holy crap moment for so many people because it's for the first time that they have to ask themselves, is this who I want to be? Or is this what society has told me I should be? Is this what my family has told me I should be? Is this what my values and belief system has told me I should be? And are they mine for real? It is a huge like reflective, but also grieving process. And when I see and work with couples, finding your authentic selves is like one of the first places you have to go before you can then communicate.

13:15What's the point of communication if you don't know what you want to communicate. You have to be communicating authentically. Yeah. Well, let's reveal which one of these is a lie. So true or false, most divorces are filed by women. I would say true. Okay. True or false, couples who fight regularly are more likely to get divorced. False. All right. And so we know this one's true. The number one reason women leave marriages isn't infidelity. True. All right. So tell us why couples who fight regularly are not more likely to get divorced. Why is that a lie? Because when we think of fighting, fighting is a wonderful thing.

13:53And I know that's going to be a hot take. And when we think of fighting, I'm not saying lashing out at your partner is healthy. But what we're saying is, is that when you're fighting, that means that you have some level of emotional investment. Think about it. If you're going about your day to day and you're not fighting. Well, why? Are you numb? Have you given up already? When you're fighting, there is some level of an emotional investment. And this is where we can lean in and get curious. Why? What's the disconnect? Where are you guys struggling to understand one another? Fighting and conflict.

14:24Conflict in general is actually healthy. We need conflict. If we don't have conflict, we're stagnant. That means we can't grow. And so it's how do we handle conflict that determines healthy versus unhealthy. So with the couples that I work with, the couples that are coming in fueled, angry, frustrated, oh, I love them because they got a lot of fire under them. And that means that there's so much in them and so much care, so much passion. And we just have to unpack the layers and figure out what does that frustration really mean and how do we find the right ways to communicate it? Okay. I imagine there is a man listening to this right now who probably has learned that fighting isn't healthy and maybe is walking away or shutting down when conflict arises, what tips would you give them?

15:06I would say that you have been taught the right thing in the sense that conflict, when it's heated and it's angry and it's hostile, it isn't safe. It isn't good. And you know, not for nothing. You don't really want to invest and give into those types of dynamics. That's where you probably should be going and speaking to a qualified professional to help navigate. But if it's just frustration, understand that you and your partner are allowed to feel emotions and anger and frustration. That's actually you guys having something very much in common. Lean into it. Ask yourself, why are we so frustrated?

15:40I always like to tell my clients this all the time. It's never really about the dishes. There's something under there. And we have to get curious, like what does the dishes mean, right? And so if a man is saying conflict is bad, I'm going to avoid, I got to tell you something, avoiding is worse than the conflict. Avoiding for her is going to probably mean you don't care about me. You don't care about us. One thing I hear from women all the time is that they're struggling with symptoms like hot flashes, sleep disruptions, and brain fog, but aren't sure where to turn to for help. Menopause is inevitable, but suffering through it isn't.

16:16That's why I want to tell you about Alloy. Alloy is a digital health platform that connects you with a menopause specialized doctor who can create a personalized treatment plan tailored to your needs, all from the comfort of your home. Join the 95 % of women who tried Alloy and saw relief in the first two weeks. Head to myalloy.com and use the code DRBRYTEN. That's myalloy.com, M-Y-A-L-L-O-Y.com, and the code Dr. Brighton, D-R-B-R-I-G-H-T-E-N. Share your symptoms and you'll get a fully customized treatment plan and unlimited messaging with your doctor. Plus, you'll get$20 off your first order today.

17:04That's M-Y-A-L-L-O-Y.com, code Dr. Brighton. And again, is that a healthy dynamic or unhealthy? I'm not going to say yes or no to that. What I'm going to say is that when we don't invest and we don't show up, we're being disconnected. So I would invite you to try to find ways that feel comfortable for you to at least show up in some capacity, whether that's, I hear that you're angry. What's going on? Just show up. Don't avoid. Because again, avoidance just kind of creates a space of, oh, I guess you don't care. So let me ask you, why do you think most women file for divorce? You sit with couples all day, every day.

17:43why is it women are the ones who initiate divorce? For me, in the work that I do and the patterns that I see, it is the chronic emotional disconnection, invisibility. I've seen so many, I've worked with so many amazing women and couples and, you know, they can handle betrayal, they can handle stress, they can handle the scheduling and all of that. But when they start over time not being seen emotionally and feeling invisible, that's the break for them. They also are not wanting to have another child. They have children. They want a partner. And a lot of women, especially when we look at the data, people who have higher levels of degrees, they don't have the mental space anymore to deal with it.

18:34They want a partner. They don't want a child or someone to take care of. And so we see that when a woman isn't being met emotionally, well, at some point there's a breaking point. And I think that really weaves into the other truth we had, which is that it's not infidelity that's driving so many women to file for divorce. And I think that's always the assumption because in a lot of ways society has said that's the acceptable reason to get a divorce. But I'm just curious, do you have any more to add to that of like, it's not necessarily infidelity driving this? And it was, you know, as you just said this, actually, I think about how infidelity you think is the ultimate betrayal, but what you just shared is like being, feeling abandoned and in that way, feeling that being maybe more of a betrayal for women.

19:28Yeah. It's the not being seen, not being heard, not being validated. Again, going back to the scripts. And again, I have yet to really meet a man that's an asshole. Like I have wonderful clients. I've met wonderful people. We have all been fed very similar scripts and we follow suit to them without pause. And so unfortunately, the role of caretaker, all of the holidays and all of the birthday parties and all the school events, they do generally fall on the woman. And when you get to the place of I'm only one person, mentally, physically, perimenopausally, Like there's so many layers there and your partner isn't showing up and you're not having a conversation.

20:08Abandonment is real. It feels like you were alone. And it's very hard to feel seen in a relationship if you don't feel heard and validated in your experiences. And that, yes, that's rejection. That's abandonment. And that's what I see every day when people are walking in the door, especially with like desire discrepancies and other things like that. desire discrepancies get them through the door. But what the real problem is, is generally not being seen. Yeah. You know, I appreciate you saying that. You haven't really met a man who is an asshole because I think that's always the default of like men are purposely hurting us, willfully using us, neglecting us.

20:50I mean, there is, I think, a propensity towards exploiting the labor of women in relationships, but I don't think that comes out of a place of like, oh, I'm going to do this thing to you as much as that I look at, I mean, I even look at my own relationship dynamic and I look at like, what was the boomer generation like? And it's like, well, of course you never had anyone model to you what it looked like to actually task share, actually look like to, you know, even, even fathers talking to their sons about their feelings, like that may not have been a thing that's happening. And so I really appreciate the empathy and the compassion of viewing this through the lens of like, there have been these scripts that men have been handed at this role they think they're supposed to fulfill and it's not working for them.

21:33It's not serving them. It's definitely not serving their partner. Yeah. And I think what you're also talking about, and listen, are there good and bad people in the world? Of course. But again, going back to that like idea of authentic self as well, you can't be your authentic self as long as you're holding on to the script that has been handed to you from the very early stages of your life. And there is a script of what it looks like to be man. There is a script of what it looks like to be woman. And we are all victim of that. And so, yeah, again, like if you're listening to this, like I would be willing to bet that you aren't an asshole.

22:07You are just, you've been given the script that's not going to allow you to be authentic and meet the same language and communication styles and support systems that's needed for human beings to just survive and thrive together. I want to get into some practical tools because I think this is a really good point for men who are listening to be like, okay, what can I do to start to cultivate these things? So I want to ask you, if you could come up with five daily check-ins every husband should practice, what would that look like in a relationship? I think this is a great question and it actually goes back to what I do with my clients.

22:40So I actually create like these cute little PDFs for my clients to do weekly check-ins with one another, daily check-ins, depending on like where your level of disconnect is and that's going to vary as well. But if you're going through your day and you're just like bump and grind where you're not really taking pause, it's just a great time either in the morning if you have this space or before like the end of your day to sit down and just say, how are you? What was going on today for you? Was there anything that happened today that caused you stress? Is there anything I can do to help? Like really check in, ask real level questions about how the person is navigating in their day, what's coming up for them, what do they need, and really leaning into also like, how does that make you feel?

23:22I know that's like the typical therapist, like, how does that make you feel? I say that like all the time to my son. And he finally, he's 12 now. And he's like, you always ask me that. Like, why do you ask me whenever I tell you something like, and how does that make you feel? And I'm like, because I don't know how you're feeling. And I don't know how to respond to you. And I need that information. and he's like, well, you need to mix up your language. Ask it differently. I'm like, okay, like, yeah. Like, are you angry or happy? And he's like, what? That's even later, mom. I'm like, I don't know.

23:52But like, that's always the thing that like, I also default to as well. Because I'm like, I can't know how you're feeling. Like, I know how I might be feeling if I was in that situation, but that's not my experience. Yeah, and that's a great point that you're making. We don't get out of your own head. You're not a mind reader. But you're also doing something so important there. You're pausing and allowing them to have the stage. They're being heard. You're giving them the pause and the space to be heard. And when you think about your day-to-day and how busy you can get, if just by default your day is so hectic and you're not giving each other space to be heard, by default you then feel you're not being heard.

24:29And that in itself can rob you from the connection. So just stopping and saying, how are you doing? How does that make you feel? It might also, and I'm going to forewarn anyone trying this, if you've never done this before, your partner may be like, what the hell? What is going on right now? They may not even know what they're feeling and thinking because it might be the first time somebody is giving them the moment to just pause and be asked, what do they feel? What do they need? What are they thinking? Yeah. So, okay, what I'm hearing is we've got to do check-ins. We got to do check-ins about how your day is and checking in about how you're feeling about all of that.

25:08And I imagine somebody listening right now is going to say, I've got three kids. We get to bedtime routine. And that's like, you know, hour zero. And, you know, all hell breaks loose. And by the time that's done, we're completely exhausted. And all we can do is just like watch Netflix. I know you have your own multiple children living under a roof. So what are your tips? Because you're not just a therapist. You're also a woman living this experience as well. Yeah. And I think you speak volume to the realities of a crazy household with children. I'm a mom of three. My day is packed. And by the end of the day, you just spoke volume to what me and my husband do.

25:45It's okay. Everyone's to sleep. We check out. Netflix on. We're good to go. Now, the problem is, is that some days you might need that. You might not have the mental capacity to be checked in. And the idea of stopping and pausing and checking in with one another is wonderful, but sometimes you may not have the mental space for it. That's okay. And I can't stress that I think anything we do, it should not actually be about consistency. Consistency then puts a lot of pressure that we're supposed to follow this daily thing. Well, what if you don't have the mental space for it? What if something comes up and now all of a sudden you have this expectation and now it's not met and now it's like, oh, well, they didn't check in with me.