Late Diagnosed ADHD and Autism | Rich & Rox Pink

0:00I always grew up feeling like a fake and a fraud. It leads to that isolation of like, I'm the worst person alive. I can't stay with someone, so I'm going to just be alone. Rich and Rox Pink turned the realities of ADHD, autism, love and relationships. Into a global movement of more than 5 million followers and four Sunday Times bestselling books. Now they're revealing what it really takes to make a neurodivergent relationship work. When we started our social media, I was the neurotypical husband. But it was so obvious that I was autistic. It was like I was masking. I was just forcing out whatever was in my mind because it felt like that was the thing that I had to do.

0:37What was the biggest lie you believed about yourselves before your diagnosis? The biggest lie was that I was... This episode is brought to you by Didi's Discounts. Back to School Season is officially here and Didi's has everything on your list. I'm talking bold styles, cool kicks, backpacks, and even dorm room essentials. All at prices that won't hurt your wallet. So don't sleep on Dee Dee's. Whether you've got a second grader or a sophomore, Dee Dee's has your whole family covered. Find a Dee Dee's discount store near you and go check it out today.

1:14Late night bites with friends? Already hard to beat. That first too hot bite of fries you couldn't wait for, followed by ice cold Pepsi. Now that hits different. Suddenly, the energy kicks back in. The night goes longer. And the laughs don't stop. Because Pepsi brings out more flavor, more fun, and more of the moment. Food deserves Pepsi. Grab a Pepsi Zero Sugar today. I'm in the Late Bloomers podcast studio all the way in the UK. Okay, my first question for you both is what was the biggest lie you believed about yourselves before your diagnosis? For me, the biggest lie was that I was just the worst person alive.

1:56Big failure, useless, lazy, like all the horrible words. It was so deeply entrenched in my personality, identity. It wasn't even like a belief. It didn't feel like a belief. It was like, that's who I am. I'm just a failure. And when you walk around like that, it feels quite horrible. What about you? Oh, so I'd never thought about that question until you just asked it. But because I only got diagnosed in November last year. So I'm six months in and loads of my life has started to make sense, mainly around socialising. Actually, like I used to think that I was like socially awkward or just I guess that's true still.

2:43but at least I can explain. I was like, I think I am socially awkward. I still definitely am, but there's no shame about it. Like it was, it used to feel like, oh, why can't I just be like everyone else who enjoys all of this? Or I have to drink loads of alcohol to be okay to do this. But now I'm like, I don't like it and I'm okay. So I'll just stay at home. Thanks. And so you were diagnosed with ADHD. You were diagnosed with autism. And so that's a very different experience. Like you said right away, like, you know, feeling like I was the worst person, all kinds of shame. And you're like, I was socially awkward.

3:18I'm curious, like when you arrived at the diagnosis, what was that moment like for you when it was like, you have an answer for, for what's been happening your whole life? For me, it was crying. I think you can remember the first time. For me, actually, it started off seeing videos on social media. That's how I found out um I was in therapy at the time and it it hadn't come up I was just there working on what I thought was other stuff and I saw this um young man Connor D. Wolf yeah and he's just making TikToks it's came off on my feet I just burst out crying I've watched about 20 in a row I just burst out crying and thought oh my god I've never heard my inner world explained by somebody else you i felt so alone in my struggles and so ashamed and just seeing this young bloke doing it and kind of and laughing um yeah it rocked my world and then going on that journey going on that diagnosis journey was then like i found it a bit difficult because i knew it was me i i every single thing i recognized but there's also a lot of imposter syndrome the voice that says no it it is because you're lazy it's because you're a failure this isn't for you kind of walking towards that that it might not be my fault and maybe there's the reason why I've always struggled so much with certain things um and then over the years I'm just so used I'm just so used to it now and I'm just so grateful I really think that it finding out probably saved my life.

5:01And mine was a lot more emotional than I thought it would be. But quite an interesting story. When we started our social media, I was the neurotypical husband. We thought I was neurotypical, even though my child is autistic. My dad likely is. It just never crossed my mind. But probably for two years before I got diagnosed, it was the more and more, I suppose you live in this world doing the jobs that we do you're just like living in neurodivergent land it like it was so obvious that I was autistic so when it came to being diagnosed I thought honestly I would think well I obviously am like it would be no different the day after than it was the day before but actually it was quite emotional like to hear her say it back to me I I remember feeling a bit like frog in my throat, like a little bit tearful, just and only in that so much of my life made sense.

6:03Even though I knew that I was, it's like hearing the words was a surreal experience. Was there anything like during your assessments that came up that you were like, this is like, it's like the key went into the lock and it just opened up something and just really made it obvious. like what what was happening for you no actually the opposite happened during the diagnosis because um obviously I was getting questioned loads family was getting questioned about my childhood and stuff like that and I had some trauma in childhood so I was um abused when I was eight and that obviously came up in the conversations and what they said was we need to go and look at this and stuff like that because it it could be trauma instead of autism and I'm like that made me angry it was that made me all sorts turns out it wasn't it was completely fine I was well autistic but at the time I was really angry about it I remember it really really knocked you because there'd been loads of conversations um and I think you were sort of feeling like it was moving towards uh yes you are autistic and then when rich kind of disclosed what happened to him the conversation like completely changed it was like oh hold on you've been through um child abuse some of these symptoms could overlap and it really upset you didn't it it was almost like that that could that be the reason is that that's not what i'm here for it was quite like dysregulating it struck me obviously this isn't true and there are a lot of professionals and experts that know way more than me but it felt like in one sentence it felt like really invalidating because it was like oh it was trauma obviously you're not you're this isn't a thing it was just but there was no like delving into the trauma it was just like surely they can't just cast this off with one sentence.

8:09But no, it turned out fine. Yeah. Well, and the thing that I find so curious within like psychiatric care is how quickly they'll just say trauma. They just like drop that load on your doorstep and do nothing else with it without ever understanding that a neurodivergent child is more likely to suffer trauma, all types of traumas, because one, you know, they are easily manipulated as children. There's also the, you know, I experienced my parents were very physically abusive. I was born to a 16 and 17 year old. So I think I should preface with that. But having an autistic child who questions everything, who doesn't understand things and then ask more questions that was seen as disrespectful, talking back.

8:56So there's certain traits that we have that lend themselves to like when when people, you know, one, they can be nefarious or two, they don't know what to do with it. The reactions can be really inappropriate. And I don't think we talk about that enough. And I don't think medicine recognizes that as much as they should. I think they're too quick to just, you know, there's someone very prominent out there telling us all like your whole problem is just trauma. And I'm like, I really wish it was that simple of like let me just kumbaya breathe my way through this unpack some things but like my brain is my brain yeah but that is that's like so relevant because actually my first um you can't really be diagnosed with cptsd here but it was mentioned to me by a therapist and in the way that she could she said this is what you're dealing with so i was kind of diagnosed with trauma and everything was was put down to that and um a difficult relationship with my dad and my mum dying and I was working within that framework but with no understanding of like ADHD and like even in therapy I was masking which is so crazy right yeah but I would be struggling to get there on time or I'd get lost or I'd lose my wallet and I would never mention it in therapy because I was so ashamed it's so crazy how it's all sometimes a human being you can be or I was more comfortable speaking about my traumas than I was difficulty being on time because at least with trauma people know it's bad they know it's difficult but losing things being on time almost felt like this isn't a real problem this is this is ridiculous like almost like it doesn't even deserve help I think sometimes with ADHD that's like some of the symptoms can feel a bit embarrassing because you feel like a bit of a bad adult like losing like losing things or struggling with directions or memory and it's really easy to self-blame and then not not tell anyone well Well, and trauma happens to you, right?

11:08It was outside of your control. And so I think that's the other aspect of it. I think that's why a lot of people will gravitate sometimes towards the story of this is just trauma. It's not, as I describe it in my book, it's like, this is your operating system, right? That you were, you were born with. And trauma is definitely one of those things outside of you that can influence the operating system. But the, I think that is what sometimes people gravitate towards is that like, well, trauma was done to me. I couldn't help that. There was nothing to be done about that. But now I can heal from that.

11:40And it's not my fault. And I think that there's a guilt and a shame of like, if we take ownership of like, this is my operating system, then we have to admit that we need accommodations. We need help. I, for the first time, traveled with the sunflower lanyard. And my husband who's in the room knows I was crying in the airport because I was like, do you know how hard my life has been with travel? like the accommodations I have to pay for, like all of the things I've had to go through just to travel. And like, yet here's this just like little thing I could have wore around my neck that could help me.

12:16And yet there were people when I shared it online who were grateful to know about it, but there were other people that were like, oh, you're just seeking attention. You're just trying to get this or that. And I'm like, and I think it's sometimes hard for us because that's what we've heard our whole life. And so when that story returns, you have to be like, okay, maybe that's true. Maybe that's what's happening. And I think that can be hard for people to unpack. It's so true. It's like it stops you from feeling like you deserve help. You have to suffer alone. It's just for attention. It just isolates people.

12:47It's so horrible, actually. Did you find a difference wearing the lanyard? Like, what was the actual, did people act differently? Did staff do different? Like, what happened? Yeah, so I will say we flew Ryanair yesterday, yesterday, which I do not recommend, especially if you're a neurodivergent. But I will say when we got through the counter, the lady was like, what can we help you with? What else can we do for you? Like our bag was overweight. She didn't hassle us about it. Like you see these videos online of how people get hassled at the airport. And she was really kind about it. Instead of me having to go through the long security line where a lot of times people are just barking at you, they put me through a different security line people spoke very slow very clearly when I asked like clarifying questions no one gave me attitude people were like oh okay this this is what I mean this is what I'm saying to you um so it's a lot of that they also because it's an invisible disability they'll just ask you do you need someone waiting when you get there to help you with your bags like what kinds of things do you need help with and so the other thing I'll say is that on the actual flights themselves, like they check in on me.

14:00Like, how are you doing? If I get up to go to the restroom, you know, this happens in the US where they're just like, someone's in there, go sit down. They're like, why don't you stand over here? Do you need anything while you're waiting? And it's really helpful because I also have a clotting disorder. So I'm like, I do have to stand. I have to move around. I have to also do injections before I do long flights. So it's just really nice to have all of that. I will say, the people around you don't know what the Sunflower Lanyard means. So that's a lot different. So on Ryanair, that was just like chaos.

14:34It was just like Disneyland just opened and everyone just is trying to mob to get to the ride first. I was like, what is actually happening right now? And I was so confused. And I was like, okay. But when I got there, the you know, the flight attendants were like really kind. And so it's those kinds of things that are helpful because I get like really bad anxiety, but not about people are always like, oh, you're afraid to fly. I'm like, no, I'm afraid of people's behavior. Like I get anxiety because people don't know how to line up. People don't know how to follow the rules. Like there are rules and I have to follow the rules.

15:07And so it makes me giggle because that's, that's you. It's anxiety inducing if others don't follow the clear rules. That can make you angry and like dysregulated. If someone's not, it's really interesting. When people take the overhead bins, but they're all the way sitting in the back, I'm like, you can't, you guys. One time I told on someone and then I realized you're not supposed to tell on people on the flight. I was like, but I was like, this other person can't put their bag there. And then I'm like really dysregulated because somebody else is meeting conflict unnecessarily because someone didn't follow the rules.

15:42But yeah, so I'm a rule follower. It's funny because people will also be like, you're such a rebel in medicine. And I'm like, well, there's so many things about medicine that are just plain wrong. They don't follow the like social rules of like respecting another human. So that that is like different rule levels. But yeah, whenever people will be like, oh, I bet you're such a rebel. And I'm like, no, I don't speed. I don't do like any, I'm like, what are the rules? I love following rules. Mine's pretty much, I don't think mine's as simple as I follow rules or don't follow rules. Mine is innately linked to sense of justice.

16:18So like queuing, if you go in front of me, you're putting me at a disadvantage. I'm pissed off at you. But if I just see someone breaking rules that doesn't have an impact on anyone, I'll break rules myself. But it's like the sense of justice for me. If your ADHD feels different across your cycle, postpartum or in perimenopause, ADHD and Women explains why hormones can change your brain and what you can do about it. Pre-order now and for a limited time, get the first chapter audio read by me, Dr. Jolene Brighton, for free. Plus a bunch of other bonuses like a free recipe guide and a PMDD workshop.

16:58Claim your bonuses at drbrighton.com slash ADHD and Women. That's D-R-B-R-I-G-H-T-E-N dot com slash A-D-H-D and women.

17:33has your whole family covered. Find Aditi's discount store near you and go check it out today. Okay, that's like perfectly said. That's how I should be explaining it to people because that's exactly what it is. I don't like unnecessary rules that don't make sense because then I'm like faced with, like I'm supposed to follow the rule, but that rule's not right. And I don't appreciate that rule. And so I think this sense of social justice is definitely what it comes down to. I just like have, you know, if we all work together, we move towards the goal that we're trying to get much quicker. So like, this doesn't make sense to me.

18:09Like when people are like cutting off people in traffic and then everybody has to slow down because of it. And I'm like, we have a common goal. What are you doing here? Yeah. A hundred percent. So let me ask you how difficult was getting the diagnosis of ADHD for you? Because there, I know autism is like a gauntlet in itself. And, you know, and people writing, your family members writing letters and me reading those and being like, this is how you all saw me. I will say my husband, when I was like, I think I'm autistic. He's like, yeah, that tracks. And I was like, what? What do you mean? Yeah, that tracks.

18:42The partners, the friends, they always know perhaps before we do. So yeah, here in the uk it's actually a pretty dire situation at the moment with nhs waiting lists and we hear hot like horror stories of i think the longest we've had is like five or six years i think there's some places in the uk now that just won't accept any new i mean people on the waiting list it is severely underserved what that has meant is then a massive rise in like private diagnosis but then there's this huge discrepancy with people that can afford to do that and people that can't at the time when i went through it was a few years ago now we just moved into our first house yeah and we had a very very privileged situation because rich was working he had the same job for 20 years which uh makes sense know your brain now um and he had like really good health insurance that also covered me and allowed you to do adhd and autism diagnosis like through your health insurer so for me it was a matter of thinking it was happening speaking to a therapist call it was a matter of weeks it's quite difficult to talk about because a lot of people that we speak to and that follow us like don't have that access and i don't know what the solution is here because it's it's not necessarily just the access though like um obviously things are different in the us versus the uk but one of the big things even if people can afford a private diagnosis of adhd they're there they then can't afford the medication if that's if that's the route they go down because you have to buy all of that privately rather than have it subsidized by the nhs so if you're diagnosed on the nhs it's a lot cheaper to manage and they've also recently stopped um i'm not sure the right word but but you used to be able to get a private diagnosis that would be recognized by the nhs that's what you could then have your treatment pathways on the nhs but they've stopped that so people that have gone private who were prescribed meds and now losing access to meds I never did meds um because I have a sort of history of stimulant abuse when I was younger um it actually makes so much sense to me now because I was without knowing I was self-medicating and when I was at uni when I moved out of my family home at 18 and I went to university that's when my life fell apart and I think there was even though it's there was some difficult stuff at home there was structure and I moved out of home and then I'm living alone for the first time and I couldn't clean cook look after myself go to lectures it was a it was a horror show so to get through the work I had ordered online I mean Christ I don't know it's really illegal um a sort of type of amphetamine and it was for staying up all night so I could do my university work but obviously it was not prescribed I abused that and it didn't have a great ending and then throughout my 20s there was also like other um drug use so for me I've always been a little bit scared of um stimulants just because of my history so I didn't do that so it didn't affect me but it's so many of our community have but with the diagnosis like itself what struck me and I don't know whether people that have been late diagnosed would relate to this but like I it was so much about childhood and I'm like I don't know I can't remember and neither will my family so like I don't they put quite a lot of that on how were you as a child but when you're 40 that's that's 30 to 35 years ago so I don't know how people at 60 are getting diagnosed because I'm not sure how would you how would you ever remember that Yeah.

23:10And I mean, that's the thing you were saying, like, oh, I was quite fortunate because I got diagnosed so quickly. And I'm like, in your 40s? Like, that's right. You just quickly once you once you pursued it. And, you know, the research shows that. Gosh, that is so true. Yeah. I mean, you were missed and that's so many of us. I mean, you know, the research, what I was going to say, it shows that on average, a woman who's pursuing a diagnosis, she'll wait four years longer than a man before she'll be believed. So it's not lack of trying. It is that they go to doctor after doctor after doctor who just says, you're just anxious.

23:45You're just depressed. You know, have you ever tried losing weight? And you're like, what does that have to do, but it's things like that that are just very dismissive that women go through. And we know that the majority of women, so it's 50 to 75 % of ADHD women are getting diagnosed as adults. It's not actually happening in childhood because by the time we get to puberty, which is when our estrogen rises, that's where all of the struggle becomes as internal as possible because we're figuring out that if we want to keep social connection, we can't be who we are. We can't be who we truly are we have to be someone else to fit into that paradigm it's just actually really sad it's when you think about it if I go back to teenage years I can literally remember that exact like experience of having to fake humanity to kind of get on in the world and it but when you're you're a young person it's it's incredibly disorientating and it makes you feel like I always grew up feeling um like a fake and a fraud because in a way I sort of was I was faking certain ways of being but it leads to that isolation of like I'm yeah I'm the worst person alive it makes me think of your recent experience of um the struggles that you've been having with perimenopause as well like you had to take that into your own hands in the end you went to see doctor after doctor after doctor and they would just just cast you off and they were like there's nothing you're too young nothing's wrong with you and that was like a 60 year old man yeah saying that to you yeah but i say a 60 year old man who's never had dementia no he's like you don't you don't need hrt and you know it's so crazy besides when i was saying when i was reading your book there are there were certain markers about hormones like testosterone androgens um like insulin um iron and i i had my bloods done three times different doctors and there were signs on that i had low iron i had low testosterone which is the the free androgen but no one they just told me I was fine and it was over a period of like two years where it's safe to say I mean I'll let you describe or they gave you an iron supplement like they didn't explore why or anything oh just you'll be fine or no one bought up no one connected the dots so I was sort of pre-diabetic I'd lost my entire personality crippling brain fog I mean I was like something is deeply wrong with me look I love you and I'm accepting but you went you went crazy yeah no let's be honest about it it was it was really bad yeah for thing is it started a few years ago it starts with um like anxiety rising and I just I'm so shocked to learn that it affects insulin like that that blew my mind so you know when I was dealing with blood sugar when was that five years ago yeah four or five years ago that's when it started and like I had no idea so it's just got like worse and worse until last year it was so bad I mean just the worst like the worst mental health I've ever had in the happiest life I've I've had so it made no sense I remember that I always used to say to you I was like someone has taken a cheese grater to my brain and just filed off my sharpness my edge it's like I'm just thinking underwater yeah it's so hard to like explain that to someone well the you wouldn't believe it until you started HRT right like you started doing that and it and it completely changed your entire life within within a few weeks I've only been on on it about six months but within a few weeks I was like oh my like I'm coming back and I it's almost like my body was starving for something and I didn't even I didn't know and yeah no doctor mentioned it or saw it it was like a last resort for me of going to see and it was privately I booked in privately to see like a sort of um perimenopause menopause expert in the UK it's all women doctors and like they were unbelievable unbelievable and like i think i was on hrt within two days of of that sort of um consultation it's made your adhd symptoms better as well like right why why is that is that linked i'm sorry i know you're in the biggest i'm like because it has yeah like it's for everyone listening i am going to be on their podcast and i will explain all of this going into it in like detail but that's a real thing but what got better though for people who are listening so you start hormone therapy was it estrogen testosterone and progesterone no just estrogen and progesterone brain fog I it's like I came back online like my my brain rebooted a version of me I thought I had like lost I sort of um vitality for life that I had lost this constant obsessional rumination that I'd kind of put down to like internalized ADHD I've always been a living in my head a dreamer a thinker but it was it was horrendous but that's really calmed down um I still lose things all the time and get kind of lost mid-thought so it hasn't done everything what about from your point of view not as much though like you you've got to I mean it's well documented right that it makes ADHD symptoms worse so you're still ADHD I don't think anyone would ever question that babes but like it got it just got worse the symptoms got worse than they were well I'm curious because you're like a legitimate rock star how how was that time of no hormones versus going on hormones in terms of like your creativity so uh for pretty much all of last year so I've been going through perimenopause for a few years but last year was I dropped off a cliff uh I thought I was gonna have to quit music and in fact uh we spoke about it many times uh because I couldn't do it I lost my edge my desire my fight uh this thing that I've always had this belief in the impossible and um this energy it just went I was like I can't I I can't do this anymore.

30:48And actually at the sort of peak of exhaustion and almost mental breakdown was October when we were on holiday and I was going on tour when we came home for a couple of weeks. And you were really worried. You didn't think I'd be able to do the tour because I was crying all day. I was burnt out. I couldn't think. It's absolutely insane what's happening. And I went on tour um and it was it was it was tough it was really really hard experience without the energy without the drive trouble i couldn't sleep um sleep was disrupted anyway but sleeping on a tour bus was impossible so i was kind of losing my mind and so i'd sort of made the decision i'm gonna have to stop this career i have chased relentlessly for 20 years that i've failed at and failed at and failed out and then finally made some traction I'm gonna have to walk away from it because I can't do it anymore and then I've been six months now HRT and just now probably the last month or so I'm like hmm hold on have have I got something more to give am I capable of this If your ADHD feels different across your cycle, postpartum, or in perimenopause, ADHD in Women explains why hormones can change your brain and what you can do about it.

32:19Pre-order now and for a limited time, get the first chapter audio read by me, Dr. Jolene Brighton, for free. Plus a bunch of other bonuses like a free recipe guide and a PMDD workshop. Claim your bonuses at drbrighton.com slash ADHD in Women. That's D-R-B-R-I-G-H-T-E-N.com slash A-D-H-D and women. This episode is brought to you by DeeDee's Discounts. Back to School season is officially here, and DeeDee's has everything on your list. I'm talking bold styles, cool kicks, backpacks, and even dorm room essentials. All the prices that won't hurt your wallet. So don't sleep on DeeDee's. Whether you've got a second grader or a sophomore, DeeDee's has your whole family covered.

33:09Find a DeeDee's discount store near you and go check it out today. And that scares the hell out of me, that I was about to just pull the plug on something that I've worked really, really hard for because I couldn't do it anymore. So many women we see abandon their careers. Like it's what's interesting is that as we enter middle age, that's when like kids are grown. Now you have the opportunity to like go all in on yourself. And yet then we see as the hormones change, women end up leaving their careers, stopping pursuing their dreams because they're like, I just don't have it in me. Like I have to I have to work on what's happening here.

33:49And I think, you know, when I think about that, I'm like, why wouldn't we see this as a public health crisis? Because women are leaving the workforce in droves because of how their brain is now operating. And then we're acting like HRT is this nice to have. And why would you even ask for it? It's natural to go through this. I didn't know that other people, other women left careers or dreams. That's like incredibly nice to hear because it really, it felt like it was, I felt like I was just losing my life. And yeah, the reaction of people, HRT is seen as this, especially in the UK, it's like really just not on the agenda of healthcare.

34:37and you have to push for it or you have to go private and you know this doc he was a top endocrinologist is that the right word that's the right word and he was just like oh no like you're far too young you're 40 no they start women far too early on this stuff you'll be fine i was like oh okay like you're an expert like i really i really believed him why wouldn't you why wouldn't you and actually that was a year and a half ago and I had he looked at my bloods and seen some of the markers if you really knew about women's hormones I might not have had to go through last year which is probably one of the worst years of my life I'd say mental health wasn't it but also your testosterone was low and that is something that we still see doctors say well women don't really need testosterone.

35:31I'm always like, well, why would the body make it? Why would her body make it if you didn't need it? It's like, how many times in medicine have they said, like, you don't really need that because we don't understand it. We didn't study it. I mean, the appendix is laughing at us right now being like, yeah, I was always relevant. Thank you. Like I was meant to be here, but medicine's like, we don't know. We don't understand. So you don't actually need it. And I'm like, that's cute. We could just say, we don't know. Like we could just say I don't know that much, but. So what is the, because I've, I've heard that many times, what is the testosterone part?

36:06What does that do? Ask women. So testosterone is also involved in regulating the immune system. So with ADHD brains, we have a propensity, autistic brains as well towards neuroinflammation. And so testosterone is really crucial in that regulation. But like, as I talk about in the book, in testosterone is our like wake up, kick ass, set boundaries. We feel strong. When there's not enough testosterone, there's a vulnerability. And what's the adaptation that many of us fall into when there's that vulnerability? It's people pleasing. It's that if I'm not strong enough, then I must please people so that I can keep a tribe, right?

36:42So if we're talking like ancestrally speaking, this would be how you kept people around you because you're not strong enough on your own, but you're strong enough in numbers. And so in modern society, that's us doing everything for everyone else, being a pushover, being like, I know I said I wouldn't do it, but whatever, I'll just do it. Because I don't have the mental energy to put up the fight here. A lot of low testosterone can also look like I have a hard time getting started on projects. I'm not even motivated, but I absolutely cannot follow through. Like I just run out of steam. I cannot see this project through.

37:14And then you're like, what's wrong with me? Because it's not interesting. It's because of all these other things. And it's like, because your brain would like you to have testosterone. On the flip side, if testosterone is too high, though, we do become very impulsive. So this is why PMOS, formerly PCOS women, the research will say like they're more likely to have ADHD. I don't think that's true. I think they're more likely to present with that male archetype of ADHD because they have that impulsivity. And it's because they have those high androgens. I make this joke all the time. And I ended up needing to go on testosterone therapy myself, which I almost got a puppy.

37:53My husband stuffed me. Instead, I bought two pairs of sequins pants that I need to like, I didn't need them, but I need to actually wear those and incorporate them. But I always make a joke when you start testosterone, hide your credit cards for two weeks. Because even if it's the right dose, the brain suddenly is like, testosterone. And then we're so impulsive. And I have had patients who are just like, oh, my God, you won't even believe like the stuff I bought. And then when I went on testosterone, it was before the holidays. Big mistake. And I just was in the mall and I was like, let's look at puppies.

38:24We should get a puppy. And my husband's like, no, what are you even thinking right now? I don't think you need it. It gets better, though. Usually within two weeks, then the brain's like, OK, OK, I got it. I know what we're doing. And then you're just like, everything feels really good. I wake up, I have energy in the morning. My brain works before coffee. Like what a novel thing, because without it, you're like - Sorry, did you say your brain works before coffee? Right. Did I, wow. Okay. I didn't know that that world could exist. Yeah. I mean, I wasn't even clocking the low testosterone on myself.

38:58Mine was because I had an emergency knee surgery and I wasn't putting on muscle mass and my, I was losing muscle and I was like working out, eating my protein, doing everything right. My orthopedic surgeon, he's Like, I can't discharge you because you're losing muscle. And I was like, wait, I should check my hormones. And then I checked my hormones. It was like abysmal testosterone because I went through this major stressor and I had to be faced with like, okay, could you get your testosterone back? Maybe working on it naturally in a couple of years? Maybe. But can you afford to lose all this muscle?

39:28Absolutely not. So like, I'm just going to start testosterone therapy. And it was in three months, like I gained a centimeter circumference of muscle on my thighs. Like my doctor was like, what did you do? I'm like, testosterone. and he's like, oh, I offer that for men, but I never thought about it for women. I'm like, my friend, let's have a conversation about this. But it was something where I was like, oh man, yeah, being on this, I'm not like being like, you know, to my husband, like, you know, can you just put coffee on my nightstand before my eyes open? Like, can we just have that? I was like, yeah, I can actually get up and go and make my own coffee and like, you know, remember where everything, where everything is but yeah it's it's um such an energetic hormone and i just think we we take it for granted and because it's always characterized as the male hormone right and estrogen is always the female hormone but really all bodies have these hormones it's just about the right balance of them if i'm taking sort of estrogen and progesterone can that affect testosterone because i almost feel like i feel so much better um is there anyway and we're sort of working out a lot more now, aren't we as well?

40:33Like, could it, could it naturally rise just from the other, like, do they interplay with each other? So estrogen and progesterone won't make it rise, but working out can definitely increase your testosterone. Just the problem is that testosterone actually starts declining in our twenties. So it's one of the first hormones to decline, but it's not universal because some women are like, you know, they're, they go into menopause and they're like, without estrogen, I'm growing a beard. Like what is happening here? So it's not universal for everyone, like the way that progesterone declining first will be universal.

41:05But certainly when there's insulin resistance, optimizing your blood sugar, building more muscle mass helps support healthy testosterone levels. Amazing. So I want to ask you guys, you know, you had previous relationships. You have, okay, let's go into that. Talk to me because, you know, I want to get into how you found each other, but like, what was life like before each other? Oh gosh, very different, very different for me. I was kind of always in a relationship from teenage years up until my mid thirties when I took a break, realized I needed to do something. and it was always the same cycle which is I would meet someone it would be incredibly intense it feel like falling in love and finding the one and I'd be very impulsive so it would often look like moving in together quickly or moving country to be with someone and um and I'd get about a year I'd get about a year and then I would feel um like I couldn't feel those feelings anymore like something had dropped or something had lost and then I would go and recreate the same cycle again um and I just kept doing this I kept leaving people and you know when you're young and dumb um it was oh I'm just not in love and I'm in love with this person there's always a way to blame out outside people it got to a point I think after the 10th one when I sort of looked back at the chaos I'd caused and there's also a lot of kind of um drug issues in there as well which don't help having a stable relationship but I looked back and was like wow I'm the the common denominator in all of these I I can't be in a relationship and I sort of put myself on the bench for a year and a half I was like no dating uh no physical no hand-holding nothing and then lucky number 11 came along that age-old saying yeah and I was really not I was really not looking um and I didn't know about ADHD at this point so my kind of internal narrative was quite shaming it was like I'm a horrible person I'm not cut out for I can't stay with someone so I'm gonna just be alone and I was actually working a sort of a program for they call it here SLAR which is um sex and love addicts anonymous and I was like fully fully in that so so I was not looking to meet somebody uh and then yeah met you and then I did and then I left my my program and it was quite scary because uh obviously if you're working a program like that the recommendation is to be very wary if you feel that way again um and to continue with the program but I I met Rich and I don't know I didn't know whether I was following the same pattern or this was different but I just I had to go for it so um but we're six years in now yeah exactly I can look back and go okay good good decision it wasn't the same but yeah from chaos to then complete abstinence and in that time I went to therapy and had some stuff to work on and then met you well we don't know whether history is not repeating itself or not because I had two seven-year relationships before rocks so we've got a year oh yeah i got a year i got a year and we'll see um so i i was married twice i was married at 18 divorced by 25 and then with my second wife at seven years had a child with both of them um rocks previously said i had the same job since I was 16 to 36.