The Hidden Costs of People Pleasing: Why ADHD Women Struggle + How to Break Free | Meredith Carder

28:54And also thinking about if you're in a position at work to kind of direct what you're assigned, say, hey, these are my strengths. I really do well with these types of tasks and choose tasks that allow you some novelty and variety throughout your day and opportunities to get up and move and talk to people in other departments and kind of naturally meet that need to move and kind of not be in that same spot, thinking about the same thing. Yeah. As you're talking about this, I'm like, I don't know that the tech community is, you know, all neurodivergent, but I feel like there's got to be enough neurodivergent there because when my husband, he, he's worked in several tech companies, there were ball chairs everywhere, walking desks everywhere, ping pong table breaks were happening.

29:49There was one place where he worked and there was actually an indoor basketball court. And there were all of these things where people were always getting movement in their day. And I look at that and I'm like, these were all accommodations that every workplace could really use. And yet you see them specifically in the tech sector. Yeah, I've noticed that too. And I don't know if it's because they are diving into the research a little bit more, Maybe they're ahead of the curve for like organizational development. I used to work in training and development and tech companies did seem like they were considering that a little bit more, probably because it's linked to higher productivity for everyone and it's beneficial and it helps their bottom line.

30:31But if it's a win-win for everyone, I think that's so helpful to integrate those things. And I think what's been interesting since COVID and a lot of those jobs have gone to remote is that oftentimes people are having those moments during the day and then they find themselves working from home in a role where they technically have more freedom, but they don't always build any of that in because it's just not intuitive anymore. You're not looking at the ping pong table over there and thinking, oh, I'm going to take this ping pong break. You're not thinking about those things quite as much. So often if you are one of those workers that used to have a very active environment, sometimes you have to think about how can you recreate that in your new setting.

31:12I want to talk about time perception because that's definitely an issue that a lot of ADHDers struggle with. Why is time just so weird for the ADHD brain? You know, it falls under that executive function umbrella. We really have a hard time perceiving, hard time perceiving time. Um, we really struggle with time, knowing how long things will take. We struggle with losing track of time and feeling time passing. So it's not always a like, oh, people with ADHD are always late. A lot of times I think people think it's a time management thing. Like they're just not managing time well, but oftentimes they're just not, not feeling that, that time passing.

32:00often we get into hyper-focus, which is a state where we are very locked into what we're focused on and we can be there for hours. And a lot of people don't understand this about ADHD because they're like attention deficit. What? Like how are people so focused with ADHD? But it is really ADHD is an issue with attention regulation. So we can either be very, very locked in or struggling to pay attention at all. But oftentimes that hyper-focus plays into the issue with perceiving time. Hey friends, Olivia from OLLI. Between new routines and the ultimate group project known as parenting, you need science-backed solutions that work with your life.

32:40That's where OLLI comes in. Start your mornings off right with Maltese made to support nutrition and immune health. Choose from our lineup of gut-supporting probiotics and we've got occasional sleep support to help the whole fam chase their big dreams. Head back to class with the number one gummy supplement brand. Stuck up on Nolly.com today. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. We also have struggles with really being able to see an overview of how long a project will take or the components that are a part of that.

33:15So that can mean that we might commit to a task thinking, okay, we have two weeks to do that. That's plenty of time, but there's all these pieces to the tasks that we didn't perceive. And we just did not give ourselves the time and bandwidth needed to be able to do that. And even the concept of time and having to make an appointment on time and then work your way backwards and then use planning, it's more executive functions than just time itself. So I want to ask you, if somebody feels like they're always rushing or they're constantly behind? What can they do to start to manage their time better?

33:55I think breaking down routines is really helpful. Having micro routines for times of day that seem to give you trouble with the time. So if you're, you know, if that's getting out the door and you're always like you get to the office on time, but you feel like you ran a marathon to get there because there was always some stressful thing you weren't anticipating, try to really do everything you can to find a routine that's intuitive because then it takes the decision and the thinking out of the process. Oftentimes with that time and the executive function of decision-making is tough too. So if we're in the morning having to pick out an outfit, we can lose track of time in our closet deciding between three things.

34:36And we feel like we've been in there for three minutes, but it's been 20 and then everything's behind. So thinking about, can I choose outfits the night before or can I have a more uniformed approach to how I dress. So it's a little more intuitive. So kind of reducing the number of decisions that need to happen in a routine can really help. Oftentimes for things like not making it to meetings in time and things like that, I do a double alarm. So I set an alarm about 20 or 30 minutes before and I hear that alarm and I think, okay, I'm gonna have to stop soon. So if I'm hyper-focused on something, it's like my brain gets a little warning.

35:19And then when that second alarm goes off, I'm less likely to ignore it or be like, oh, I got to really wrap this up because I'm already starting to wrap something up. And then I'm able to transition into that meeting on time. So thinking about those pieces, I often find sometimes with time management, we can overcorrect that big time. That can be a people-pleasing thing too, where I was that person that was always excessively early because I got so used to like that frazzled feeling of being on time, but showing up feeling like I, you know, was just really exhausted just getting there or the stress of being late.

35:58So I would show up to things 20 or 30 minutes early and that causes its own level of stress and you lose a lot of time in that. So not just asking the question around how can I be more on time, but think about how am I thinking about the time leading up to having to be somewhere or be in a space? And what can I do to kind of find those stumbling blocks and make them a little easier for myself? Yeah, I know about the being early. So if I have to be somewhere at 3.15, I tell my brain it's three o 'clock and I set everything by three o 'clock. I also have to say, I wonder if this is true for you, but I find this true for other people with ADHD is that if the appointment is at 3.05 or it's at 3.20, like that does not exist.

36:46Like that is not a thing. You are either at three o 'clock or you're at 3.15, but these, these other things like that you're trying to schedule for me. So I will always be like, it has to be like three o 'clock, 3.15, 3.30, somewhere in, you know, the 15 increments. But my husband, I'll say, oh, we have to be there by three. And he'll be like, it's 3.15. Like, why, why are you saying that look, it's 315 on the calendar. I'm like, no, you just sabotaged my brain because odds are if I say three o 'clock, I'm making it at 315. Like that's what's happening. So I already know that. We're not always building in that buffer.

37:18I think it can be really helpful to you to have that external processing of time with someone. So if you're going to the airport and you know you want to be there at a certain time, talking it through with someone or even AI, if you don't have that person to talk it through. I often forget, okay, how long is it gonna take to park? How long is it gonna take to, you know, take the bus over from the economy lot? There's so many steps that I think we are only looking at like, okay, here's the drive time over to this place. We're not naturally putting those other steps in. So kind of sanity checking your plan with somebody can really help so that they're like, oh no, it's gonna take you at least 15 minutes to walk in.

37:59or if it's a new place, finding it. That's something I didn't do today and was a little bit late to this meeting. So we can get better with it when we practice it, but also just allowing yourself a little bit of grace when it doesn't work out the way you need it to and just learning for next time. But I always think of for me, yes, other people are impacted by being a little bit late here or there, but I'm the one that's usually mostly impacted because of the stress of that and how that feels to be late. So thinking about it as kind of like a service to yourself to, it's almost like self-care to take that extra time to kind of nail down those routines and set yourself up for success to, you know, be able to arrive on time a little more often.

38:50Yeah. And I appreciate you saying, you know, leveraging AI. It's so interesting to me because, oh, it's such a split right now. And people are like, oh, you shouldn't use the AI. And yet I find both people who have ADHD and autism, they are leveraging AI in a way that's helping them support their lives that never existed. Like saying to AI, this is my, you know, outline a morning routine. Okay. This is what I also do in my morning routine. Okay. Could you put a time estimate to that? Okay. Can you make it a PDF printout? And then you can print it out and you can put that up. This is something that I manually had to do because this before AI for my son of like, every morning we need to brush our teeth.

39:31We need to wash our face. Like then you need to go get clothes and having those steps there. And, you know, for the average individual, they might be like, oh, you know, that's like, why would you need that? And it's because it's easy to miss steps or it's easy to get distracted, hyper-focused on something else, especially as, you know, he's now a preteen boy and it's like, oh, if the remote's out, I could just turn on the TV. And now it's like, we've forgotten that anything else needs to be done. I want to shift the conversation. You brought up emotional regulation earlier. What's something most people like are misunderstanding about emotional dysregulation when it comes to ADHD?

40:11You know, I think there's a lot that we don't really focus on. And part of that is because emotional regulation is actually not part of the diagnostic criteria for ADHD. It used to be. And then it was taken out mainly because it was hard to measure and hard to quantify. I want to stop right there because I want to highlight that the DSM is mostly changed for the comfort and the ease of practice for the practitioner and not based on the experience of the individual. And I think that's really important because people will say that's not in the DSM. So emotional dysregulation isn't real, Meredith.

40:47Why are you talking about that with ADHD? That's not in the DSM. the DSM didn't even allow for the diagnosis of ADHD and autism. I believe it was like 2016 when they finally allowed it. And the whole reasoning why they never allowed it is because they thought it was too hard for the clinician to be able to differentiate these. So sorry to interrupt you, but I just really need people to understand that the DSM is for the practitioner and it is not encompassing the experience of the individual. I am so glad you interrupted to share that because that is such a such an important point. And that is, I think it's just the inequity of the system could be a whole nother conversation.

41:30But bringing it back to the emotional regulation piece, we don't talk about it enough because of that very reason. And what's interesting, though, is working in this field and interacting with experts, many of them that are physicians and neuroscientists, they all agree that it should be something that we are studying and understanding and part of that diagnostic criteria. It's actually something the psychiatrist that evaluated my daughter noticed in the appointment and pointed out to me before we knew any of that. So people that understand ADHD, understand that this is absolutely a huge part of ADHD.

42:10Again, it's under that umbrella of regulation. It's hard to regulate our attention. It's hard to regulate our emotions. There's several studies that show that people that are neurodivergent have a smaller zone of tolerance. So your zone of tolerance is that space where you are calm. It's not that there's not stressors present. It's that you can navigate those stressors and that you're able to stay just like it sounds regulated. And then we often are pushed out of that zone more easily and our zone is just smaller. So that sometimes looks like being really temperamental, like very extreme emotions, but it also can look like feeling more flat.

42:56You can go up or you can go down outside of that zone of regulation. So it's really important to talk about because I give people strategies all of the time. But if you are chronically overwhelmed, you're probably dysregulated. You're not going to be able to do any of the strategies I give you when you're not in a state of regulation. So if we don't address that, none of the things that we give clients or we give ourselves to manage our symptoms are going to be very helpful. You know, it's interesting. that was one of the first things that was noticed about your daughter. Cause in my son, that was the first sign for me is the extreme emotional dysregulation, the big feelings, the big outbursts, um, and, and the small zone of tolerance.

43:41And that's when I was like, huh, we need to look into this. Like there's something here, there's something going on. I want to talk about that zone of tolerance. If we know the zone of tolerance is small, What can we do about it? So there are everyday things that you can do to increase your zone of tolerance. Spending more time in nature, exercise, spending time in community, laughing, all of those things help us widen that zone of regulation. Those are those things that fall under that self-care umbrella. So many of us have a really hard time finding time to fit in. Um, so thinking of those things that kind of build up your tolerance over time.

44:21And then you also want to build your library of skills to notice when you're moving out of that zone to, to catch it faster. Uh, cause usually there's signs, uh, oftentimes they're physical. It's things like you start feeling hot or you start getting a little bit of a headache, uh, noticing those things faster and having ways to down regulate. and then also noticing when you're in those patterns where you don't have enough stimulation to feel regulated, where you don't feel like you can initiate tasks when you're kind of feeling really low and having tools that kind of can bring you up into that zone where you can focus and navigate things a little bit easier.

45:02Yeah, and I think, you know, the taking breaks is so important and is the top of this conversation, we talked about people pleasing and I think women, they forget to take breaks. They forget to take them, put themselves first. Maybe they don't forget, but they don't prioritize it. And it's certainly something that I think a lot of society likes to send women this message of like, you're inferior because of your hormones. Like you can't keep up with men. Men are cycling their hormones on a day-to-day basis, right? I like to call it the sun. It's up and it's down. It's pretty boring. That's why I don't work in men's health.

45:36Super boring. Not enough stimulation for me. women we're going to be cycling roughly on that lunar cycle so on the moon cycle so if you think about the moon phases that's you you have all of these phases that you go through and there's this message that you know during your luteal phase you should suck it up you should push through like and that is something where you know my message to neurodivergent women is that this is a built-in for a break system. Like you, your hormones have you in go, go, go mode for the first half of the cycle. And we are meant to take breaks as humans. And as women, we get gifted that time of like, yes, your emotional regulation is going to be a little bit less.

46:21You're not going to be able to multitask and do, you know, 50 things in your mind like you were doing two weeks ago. And that's permission to pause. That's not something is wrong with you. But I think because we try to push through that. And I say we, because I certainly, I can know all this and then I fall into that trap again, but we try to push through, right? Or like sometimes life is happening and it's day 27 of your cycle and your period's coming and you're like, well, I still have to be at this meeting. I still have to give this presentation. That's when we start to find ourselves really feeling like the pool of all of this.

46:55And I bring this up in the conversation of emotional dysregulation because it's that PMS and even like the PMDD symptoms, you know, they feel so extreme and sometimes adding in, so this is not like all you have to do is go out in nature and do all the things that you're saying and you'll be fine. It is adding those in by subtracting the things that don't really need your attention, taking those out that you can feel more regulated in that time. And that's the medicine that doesn't have to happen in the doctor's office. Hear that? That's now Crispy and McCrispy Strips meeting creamy Caesar sauce.

47:36Sounds extra crispy. Caesar sauce at McDonald's for a limited time. Yeah, I think a lot of managing ADHD, especially in women, is understanding your patterns and making the shifts you can to honor your capacity. because it is not the same every single day. And we've been taught for so long, living in a capitalistic society, that we should be able to show up at work at the same time, work the same amount of hours and just always be on. And we aren't designed that way. And if we have ADHD, we've got this extra set of struggles with that. So I think it's something that all women struggle with. But I think with ADHD, we have to really think about that and think about what kind of agency do we actually have with our job or our personal life and our family to honor that a little bit more?

48:29Because I don't think most of us work. If we work for the corporate world, they're not going to be like, okay, yeah, it's cool. If you work, you know, half days during the second half of your cycle, we get it. I think it would be wonderful if we got there. But thinking about if you have a little bit of control over your workload, like I am focused a lot on writing right now. And my brain is not that great after I ovulate. Like it feels like I am a different person for those couple of weeks in a month. So knowing that I try to structure most of my writing when I am earlier in my cycle and I feel more creative and I, it's just easier to initiate.

49:09So it takes a lot less bandwidth. I can write at other times than I have, but when I have, When I'm not writing for a deadline, I try to move the creative projects there and then put the other things that are just requiring less brainpower and energy in that second half of my cycle. And I'm lucky that I have flexibility in my job to do that. But I think a lot of us can kind of look for ways we can think about that in our life and understand what our capacity is and not try to fight it so much. Mm-hmm. I feel this so hard right now because I'm working on a book right now and there's deadlines and chapters due and I ovulated and I'm like, I don't feel like, and any, any time though, I do get the like, okay, I feel like writing, like I got to go in on it.

49:57But one thing for people who are like, well, what do you do when you just have to do it? Is that, so for writing, for example, yes, I'm writing this in my luteal phase, my brain, it's, It's more work. Honestly, it's more work. Things don't flow as well. I can always revisit it and edit back in that follicular phase, back when my estrogen is up. It's honestly something that where I was just like, man, I just feel like I should just take some estrogen so I can power through this. And I'm like, yeah, that would be great. I'd love to see the fallout of doing that in your cycle. So nobody, don't do that.

50:28It was just my thought of like, oh, if I just had my estrogen ally, I would be doing so much better. I want to talk to you about the ADHD shame spiral, because after you have a bout of emotional dysregulation, maybe you lash out to somebody, maybe you cry in front of people that can feel embarrassing, you know, that there can be this shame. Like, I feel so ashamed. How do you coach people through that ADHD shame spiral? That's a really hard one, because I think it really can be painful when our symptoms put us in a situation that we regret saying something or acting in a certain way. I think it's Brene Brown that says shame dies in the light.

51:08I think I really encourage people to find that safe person to talk about it with. If you maybe have that coworker that was there, having that conversation versus ruminating on the interaction for weeks and days and months, getting things out into the open, I think is much better for our brains than keeping it internal. Sometimes you might be surprised at the perception. It might be, oh, I didn't even notice that you did that or, oh no, it actually made me feel good to see you have tears and emotions because I feel like I was suppressing that. You might be surprised at the outcome or you might have a conversation that leads to a better way of interacting in the environment that triggered that reaction.

51:54But I think we really have to talk about the fact that people with ADHD, one of the things we really struggle with is rumination, which if you're not familiar with that term, it's overthinking. Our brains tend to stay kind of in that like thinking processing mode. There is actually been studies that show that there's a network in the brain called the default mode network. They often refer to it as the DMN. So all people have this network. But that's when we're kind of like at rest and we're thinking things through. And then there's this other network called the task positive network, the TPN, that when we start doing a task and we're involved in something, the DMN turns down in like a neurotypical individual.

52:40So with people with ADHD, our DMN doesn't turn down as much when we're involved in a task. So that means that while we all can overthink and we can all ruminate, we're doing it much more often. And we're not getting that brain break when we're like, oh, I can just keep busy and do this thing and kind of forget this ever happened. No, we're still thinking about it. So if we want to break those cycles of rumination, oftentimes we do need to, you know, get it out in the open and talk to the people that we're involved in and try to repair in that way. But our brain is going to tell us that's not the solution, that we should stay over here and keep ruminating.

53:18So being aware of that tendency is really important. Yeah. And I talked about this. I did an episode on ADHD sleep issues specifically in perimenopause because it's like, you don't sleep because of delayed sleep phase syndrome here with ADHD. And then you add perimenopause hormones on it and now you're not sleeping even more, but that rumination can be really problematic. And that's when so many of my patients have said, When I'm falling asleep, my brain just won't shut off. What are you thinking about? Are you thinking about to-do lists? No, I'm thinking about that thing that I did when I was six years old and I really wish I never did it.

53:57And all I can think about and I'm like, hey, I've been there. I know this. I know this well. And so it is something that I want people to know is really, it is really common experience and it is something to recognize that it's a huge drain on your energy. I don't think we talk enough about how exhausting it is to live. as a neurodivergent person in a neurotypical world. And that's one of those reasons as well of like analyzing every action that you've ever done and how could you do it better? I do want to talk about the pause though, because you brought that up earlier about pausing before, before you speak, but how do you help people who are having a hard time with overreacting or reacting quickly?

54:42how can they take a pause to not go into reactive mode first? I think it takes a lot of practice. You have to identify what your kind of exit strategy is before you need it. So if you know that there's certain things that trigger you at work or trigger these responses at home, thinking about that and thinking about how can I notice faster and have a pause or have some language that allows for that pause. So we use this a lot in our home with communication because, you know, we've got five people and three of them have ADHD. So there's a lot of, you know, emotional regulation issues happening. And our past pattern was everybody gets so hot and we continue trying to get our point across and yelling and it's just not good.

55:32Right. So we've identified language being like, I feel like I need a break and I'll approach you when I feel more regulated. And when you're regulated, please let me know as well. So we can we can have this discussion in a productive way. Do you guys actually get to say all of that? I mean, my kids are older, so I think that's important to know. It's because we just have code word dysregulated. Yeah, I mean, it doesn't always sound. In the house, we're like, give space, dysregulated, give space. Like, and so it's like, you actually are able to have that whole conversation. You guys have been practicing that for a while.

56:06I mean, it does. It sometimes works really well. Sometimes it looks more like I have to leave. And sometimes there's just door being slammed to make a point, you know? And I think sometimes too, it's like, you know, as a parent, when the language isn't used by the child and it is more of like the walking away, slamming the door, I'm able to just let that go because I know that she is really trying to do what's best for her in that moment, but she's just not at a point yet where she can like skip the door slam. When I was a kid, I did a lot of door slamming and that was additional punishment and additional negative feedback for how I reacted instead of really getting to the root of the thing that you were trying to work through that was causing the dysregulation.

56:53So yes, it's not perfect. I think if we practice those things ahead of time, oftentimes when I've worked with clients that are really struggling with that, they'll do that as like a morning routine. They'll do some gratitude work and then they will like rehearse language for conversations. And as you practice these things in real life, it gets more natural and you don't always have to have this like canned speech. But if you never think about that language until you're in the moment, the language is not going to be very kind. So I think that's the pause starts to happen more, the more you practice and the more you're aware that you need it.

57:32And oftentimes I think that we struggle to, we're trying to regulate in the moment when we really need to kind of like be somewhere where the trigger is not for a time to, to get back into regulation. Oftentimes people are like, don't, don't, you know, leave the conversation until things are resolved. But sometimes we all need a break so that we can get back to a place where it's productive. Yeah, I agree with that. I appreciate you saying that because you hear that so often. And I know somebody once upon a time said like, if you want to stay married, like never go to bed angry. And I'm like, well, sometimes you're going to go to bed angry because that message to me was always push down your emotions.

58:16Don't deal with your emotions because even when you still talk about things, you can start getting dysregulated again and then you fill that in your system and then I think it's really easy I mean I feel like younger me was like oh I feel so guilty and I'm gonna ruin my marriage and I'm not I don't think I've been married like 15 years now but I was like so paranoid because I'm like no but I still feel like I feel angry and it's like not even necessarily still angry with this person as much as like the feeling is still there like it and it's when I as I matured I learned like you have to let emotions run their course and run through your body.

58:51And I'm someone, so in our house, we have the, like, I am dysregulated. It's often because, you know, I've modeled this. So this definitely comes from me because I'm in the kitchen and I'm cooking and I'm trying to do all the things. And then like, I'm being talked to and someone's banging a pot and all this. And then I'm like, wait a minute, it's upon me. I'm dysregulated. And I have to leave and take this little break. Something we do in our house. So with the older one, he's not so much cool with the trampoline, but the toddler is like, let's go bounce on the trampoline for a while. I'm someone that like, I've got to do jump squats.

59:25Like what I want people to understand. And this is what I explained to patients is that when your nervous system gets into the sympathetic drive, fight, flight, freeze, ask yourself, like, what does it want? What does it want to do? And a lot of times it's like, I want to fight. I want to run away. Let's give your body what it needs. So it wants to actually move and move in that way. But I really love that you guys have been working on it so long that your family can have that dialogue and actually get to that place of discussion. I think that's a really beautiful thing to be modeling to people of something that's possible.

1:00:03Yeah, I don't want to put the image out there that we're perfect and that we don't fight. Yeah, I just want to be clear here. My teenage daughter will call me on it and be like, no, we just got in a fight last week. And to me, it's not eliminating these things happening. These things will happen. We will get dysregulated. We will say things that we regret saying, but understanding the root of it and giving ourselves more of a chance to have less of these situations and then knowing how to repair is really, really important. Yeah. And for people listening, I will link to Dr. Anne Louise Lockhart's episode because she talked about how bad it is to yell at your kids.

1:00:45You know, we know that physical punishment is damaging to a child. So spankings. She talked about yelling and something we talked about. And that is like, okay, well, everybody's going to lose it at some point, right? Some people might be freezers, right? That's how their sympathetic nervous system works. So they just shut down, which is also damaging to a child, right? What can we not do, right? To the kid that isn't something. Well, she gave tips. And one of the things was like showing them and modeling them when, when you feel like you've misbehaved and you've acted out of character from what, who you would like to show up in this world, model to them what an apology looks like, how redemption can be, can be achieved.

1:01:28And I thought that is just so powerful. I want to shift the conversation to motivation because I think that's the other thing. We often get labeled as like unmotivated, right? Unmotivated, lazy. No, I just don't want to do the boring, meaningless stuff that I don't think has a point, right? That was me in school. Like, what's the point of this? If you can't tell me why this is worth doing, then I'm not going to do it. It's such like, if you have a child that's a troublemaker, let me be an example of what troublemakers can look like when they grow up. What actually drives motivation in the ADHD brain and why is it sometimes that rewards will backfire?

1:02:08I think it's such an interesting conversation. We have such a complicated relationship with motivation because oftentimes there are those things that we just really struggle to initiate and we get that label of lazy. But then we have this other side of us that is like so motivated to the things that we're interested in. So what they think is happening in the ADHD brain is that we have our dopamine receptors process dopamine much more quickly than a neurotypical brain. And dopamine is a neurotransmitter that's involved in a lot of things. But one of those things is motivation. So when we're thinking about a task that is kind of boring, like, you know, doing laundry or something like that, a neurotypical person is going to get some dopamine in their brain thinking, oh, it's going to feel good to get this done, or I can check this off my list and that feels good.

1:03:01And that's enough dopamine for them to do the thing. Whereas an ADHD person that they might get that like little feeling of, oh, I want to do my laundry. I want to get it done. And then that dopamine is processed so fast before they can even initiate that task. So they're having to be like, let me find a new podcast to listen to, or they're having to jump through all of these hoops to try to be motivated to things that are, it's much more intuitive for other people to be motivated towards. So that's, I think, where we get really motivated to do their laundry. I don't think anyone likes it, but I do think for some people, it's just they know it's something that needs to be done.

1:03:37They see the importance of it. I often say that the trickiest thing about ADHD is our brains are not always motivated by importance. They're motivated by interest. So if we've got all of these tasks on our list and we know that this one thing has we really need to wear clothes tomorrow and we're on our last pair of shorts. Like, why aren't we getting up and doing the laundry? But we have this other task, like researching a topic that we're really interested in. Our brain's going to tell us, no, no, no, this is the important thing when it's really not in that moment what we need to be doing. So that can be really tough.

1:04:12And I think it's really tough with people that are diagnosed later in life because they have these like two parts of themselves where they're like, why can I be so motivated towards this one thing, but I can't keep my home functional or I can't submit my expense report. Those things I think are really confusing. And I think oftentimes we oversimplify it. Like lazy is such an interesting term to me because it just doesn't apply to most people with ADHD because oftentimes too, we like, we do want to be keeping our home cleaner. We do want to like not be getting in trouble at work. We do want to get reimbursed for that expense.

1:04:50So we're having a hard time doing things we actually want to do. And if you're lazy, I think it's avoiding things that you just totally don't want to do, right? Yeah. I just have to laugh because it's like, so the autistic part of me needs the house to be organized and everything in its place. Like people, I cohabitate with many people and the people moving the stuff in the pantry, like my husband will see it. I walk in there and I'm like, oh, and he's like, oh my gosh. okay, somebody moves stuff on you. I'm like, yeah, yeah. But then the ADHD side of me is like, I can, I can wash and I can dry clothes.

1:05:26I can not get over the finish line. I've actually had to, it's interesting because, um, you know, there's the whole argument around autism and it's like, oh, well, you're a low accommodations person. I'm like, well, am I? Because I have to hire people to come into my house and help me. Like, I can't get across the finish line of like getting the clothes folded and getting them put in drawers. And there's all of these tasks that happen in the house that I'm like, I can't get them done. Like it's, and I have tried all of the watch TV while you, you fold clothes, but then I get really bored with TV.

1:06:01And so it's, it is this struggle. And you know, something else as you were talking that came up for me is how we hear these silly things that are like successful people make their bed every morning. And I think for people with ADHD, they hear that and they think, well, I can't make my bed. I'm someone who's like, there's a fitted sheet and there's a comforter and that is done. Okay. We can't do more than that. That people will hear that though. And they think like they hear these successful people say these things, like they make their bed every morning. Um, they always have like, you know, their clothes folded neatly, like, and, and then you hear that and you think like, well, then I can't be successful.

1:06:40And it's not true. Success looks really different. And I will tell you, I've met many very successful people who are like, they never roll in in clothes that are not completely wrinkled. And I see that and I'm like, right. Same, same. So I think, you know, this talk around motivation is helpful for people to understand how things can look differently for them. I want to ask you that what are the most effective tips you share with clients for managing impulsivity and how, you know, how that gets in the way of their motivation? Yeah, I think it is really important to think about every day, like what your why is for that day, because we will be governed by that impulsivity if our why isn't strong enough.

1:07:33So you talked about being the kid that's like, I don't want to do this thing if I don't know why I have to do it. And thinking about the things like your bed, I am actually the same way where I'm like, I don't need to make my bed. My husband likes to make the bed. So I let him do it. And I've let go of the fact that like, if I were a better wife, that's something I'd be doing. It's important to him. It's not important to me. So when he's out of town, I just kind of pull that comforter over and we move on. But thinking about like every day and thinking about what are my top priorities and why are these my top priorities, I think can help a lot with that impulsive need to just kind of like follow what our brain wants to do in the moment.

1:08:15I really like a transition routine to transition me into my day and out of my day. And usually that looks like in the morning, thinking about, okay, what did I identify the night before as my priorities? So it's almost that double check. If you are closing out your workday and thinking about, okay, tomorrow, what do I want? You're building that vision and then you're revisiting it in the morning and it's going to be easier to have a little more control over those impulses. I also think sometimes it's okay to follow your impulses. Every once in a while, I like to give myself a day where I don't have any deadlines and I am able to just follow what my heart tells me to do that day.

1:08:59It feels really freeing. I had a client that was kind of struggling with that, where she was like, I know I do better with routines and plans, but then sometimes I just want to rebel. And she identified trying to fit in a half day each week that she called her blah day. And she could just be like, blah, I'm just going to do whatever I want. I don't have to follow the rules. And she found herself. Sometimes she would do the routines anyway because she was craving it. But other days she let herself just kind of follow the impulses. And when you give yourself kind of like that little bit of a leeway, I think it's easier to have some more control over them the rest of the time.

1:09:36Do you think that's a bit of pathological demand avoidance? Because sometimes it's like, I know I need to do these things. Like, here's the routine. And I definitely love routines. And I get really, yeah, I dysregulated if routines get interrupted. But then sometimes if somebody's like, oh, you have to do this or you should do this, it like lights up. And I can even do it to myself where I'm like, oh, you should do this and you should do that. And then my brain's like, we're not going to do it. We're not going to do that. So I wonder if like those like permission of having the blah day is something that would work for people with PDA as well.

1:10:11Yeah, I do think with PDA, we do have to have time away from the demands. We can't have a demand all of the time. We need some freedom within our routines to be able to have choice. I think a PDA can be really hard. I get like that too. As a kid, I would just say, like, I just don't like being told what to do, even if that telling was something that was gonna be good for me and benefit me. So I think that, and again, I think we impulsively resist at times versus taking the pause and being like, okay, so maybe we didn't like how that demand was phrased by someone or from ourself. Maybe we need to approach it from a different angle.

1:10:50I think it's easier in adults as kids because we can be a little more irrational than that. But, you know, I found that with exercise with myself is I was very into marathon running for a really long time. And I did really well with a very solid training plan until I didn't, until I got older and I needed more recovery than what the system, you know, was telling me I needed to do for miles. and when I took a break, it was like, I wanted to just do things my way, you know? And I just couldn't bring myself to have that structure again. And I had to slow down and be like, I was telling myself, just follow the plan, you know?

1:11:31But until I took the time to be like, why am I being so resistant to this? And identify that like, oh, that was because that being so rigid on that hurt you in the past. So like do that self-collaboration where you find that answer. And I think if you're dealing with a kid that shows the signs of that PDA profile, it is kind of like that collaboration versus always being a like directive parent. I think it helps a lot when we can get the buy-in from that person. And sometimes that person is ourselves that we have to get that buy-in from. It's funny that you said like, you know, I don't like to be told what to do.

1:12:09before I was diagnosed, I would be like, what's the rule in the house? And my son and my husband both knew it was like, don't tell mom what to do. I'm like, yes. And I identified that early on that I'm like, if you tell me what to do, like my nervous system's like you're attacking me and I'm angry. Is it rational? No, it's not rational. It's how my nervous system's wired. But it was, that was one of our code things for them to reframe it of like, hey, what do you think about doing this? Or wouldn't it be nice if we had this and just doing a reframe? And then my nervous system's like, yeah, let's do it.

1:12:44Like, this is great. I'm like, this is so silly, but it's so real. It's such reality. So for, um, so for people listening, PDA pathological demand avoidance, this is where you, just like we're saying, you tell someone what to do and their nervous system lights up and it's like, can't won't. It's not even conscious. It's not something that they're deciding. It's what their entire existence is like. It's like one rebellious nervous system against yourself as well. When somebody is struggling with that and they know they have to get something done, what are some tips to help them? Yeah, I think being aware of it and having language around it is absolutely important.

1:13:22We didn't really start talking about PDA until like the last couple of years. So recognizing that is very important. And then I think it is always coming back to the purpose. People that show that profile need to know the why big time. And if you can't identify a why, then you're not going to be able to meet that demand. Sometimes we have to think about what is it about this demand that is feeling so uncomfortable to me? Is it that I'm worried I'm not going to feel good? For an example, I see a lot is my son is very demand avoidant. And it's so heartbreaking as a mom because he'll get invitations to play dates and things like that.

1:14:05And he will almost immediately be like, no, I don't want to do that. And he's very social. But oftentimes he's like, well, I'm worried I'll be tired from school or I already have football tonight and I don't want to do this other thing. It's like he has like a set amount of demands that he can tolerate. And once we kind of identified that and accepted that versus like packing things in, It's worked a lot better. I've noticed that with myself is that like when I'm going through a period of time where I have tons of meetings on my calendar and my time doesn't feel like I have much control over it, that's when I have to lessen demands elsewhere.

1:14:45Like there's only so many demands that a lot of us are willing to tolerate. So thinking about, okay, why am I doing this? Getting back in touch with the benefit, you know, completing the task it will give you. And also just looking at your kind of bandwidth to have those external demands and kind of shifting if there's just too much at a certain time. I love the, you know, cataloging, like how many demands can I take in the day? I think that's really important. I feel like it took me too long in life to realize that like, if it's more than three big things I have to do outside of my house, like I'm going to be completely wiped out And so I know that it's like, if I have to go to a doctor's appointment and I have to do the Costco trip and I'm going to have to go to like a parent teacher conference, that's it.

1:15:36Don't schedule any other big going outside the house, doing other things. Don't think like, oh, I can just stop by the pharmacy on the way or anything like that. And to say that it might not catch up with you that day, it might catch up with you a few days later. And this is the thing that's so tricky about being a human is that the things that often are impacting, have impacted how we're feeling in this current moment, they already happened a week ago, a month ago. And here we are. And we don't think back to that. And we just wonder like, well, what could possibly be wrong? So I love that tip of like, understand how many demands like you can really take on in a day.

1:16:15I think the same is true with like decision fatigue. So you gave the great tip of like, before bed, pick out the outfits because yeah, first thing in the morning, you have to think about getting breakfast. You start thinking about all of these things. And that's, I feel like you can only make so many decisions in the day. And this is something that I will say to my team sometimes, like I have made a lot of decisions today. I need like this one, you have to come back to me tomorrow. Cause I just feel like I'm going to give you an answer and none of us are going to be happy with it. So let's try again tomorrow when my brain is fresh and is actually has a little more capacity.

1:16:49I think just understanding that is so important and being able to communicate that. Yeah. Well, this has been a fantastic discussion. We are going to link to where you coach ADHDers. We will link to your book and all of your resources. But I want to say thank you so much for sharing your expertise and taking the time to sit down with us today. It was great. I was so happy to be here. I'm not giving up. I am selling the building. The final season of FX is the bear. The restaurant is flooded. Everything's either going to be okay. No, stop. Or not. We are outgunned and we are outmanned. We have each other.

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