How Betrayal, Divorce & Trauma Wrecked Her Body — And How She Healed

27:31Because those left untreated and unhealed, they will continue to be part of this narrative that can sometimes keep us stuck and hold us back. And stuck is a trauma word. Yeah, I think it's so good. One thing I would just encourage people to think about with this too is When you're living with this trauma, it is akin to having a parasite live in an organ. And it is destroying it. It's eating it. It's causing decay. And until you address it, like Lisa's sharing, it's going to continue to build disease. And you can take all the right supplements. You can go on a lot of walks. You can eat a lot of broccoli or whatever it is.

28:12And it's still not going to fix this issue. And this is the root for so many issues. If you're dealing with major hormone imbalance, high cortisol, of course, is a starter of that insulin resistance, inflammation. This is a major factor contributing to so many of these areas. And one of the things in particular, I remember watching a YouTube video of yours where you started talking about this somewhat. And I want to go through a few of these things. I want to talk about unforgiveness. I want to talk about control and a few others. But I want to go back to when you were hurt by your first husband and the betrayal there and some of the other things.

28:49How did you, I think some people have been so hurt by some people, they feel like maybe forgiveness is like condoning or being okay with what they did. Can you walk me through a little bit? Like, how do you forgive something that feels unforgivable? Yeah, well, often when something big like a divorce happens, which I like to change that word to the death of my marriage, because that's what it really was. The immense amount of grief that was woven into that experience. And it was just unbelievable. It really was a death to me. And so the unchangeable can feel quite unforgivable. Like, I think part of what sometimes we think, okay, if I have this conversation with them and I come with a posture of forgiveness, they'll own what they did.

29:39They'll say they're sorry. And then they can fix things. They can make it right. And then the forgiveness process makes sense in our brain. But we all know that's often not how it plays out at all. Because if someone is refusing to own what they did and never say they're sorry, we can easily get stuck in this pattern of unforgiveness. And so what we have to learn is that this person, if they're never willing to say they're sorry and own what they did, we can't also allow them to hijack our healing journey and our future. So we have to detach our ability to heal and move forward from that choice that they may never make.

30:19And we have to put a stake in the ground and we have to say, my choice to forgive is my choice to live. I deserve to stop suffering because of what another person has done to me. And you see, we don't actually have to have that person own what they did and say they're sorry. Now, we can forgive them and we may need to have very strict boundaries. And that's why I also have a whole message on boundaries that's very, very important. because while the Bible commands us to forgive, reconciliation is very dependent on a lot of things and their repentance is number one. But let's say they don't repent and all of that.

30:57So it's not actually what I discovered. It's not actually that I needed that person to say they were sorry. What I actually needed was to write down all the pain that that person caused me. And I needed some other human in this world to dare to bear witness to my pain. I needed someone else to say to me, I believe you, what happened was wrong, and I am so sorry that that happened. And that's what my therapist did for me. And it changed the course of my healing journey because I realized I just needed someone else to say it was wrong. And when my therapist did that, he believed me. He said that he was so sorry for what had happened to me.

31:42And he just stood there with me and dared to bear witness to all that I had shared, all the many ways. That did something in my heart that made me desire that I wanted to move forward by forgiveness. And I realized forgiveness is not an unfair gift that I have to give to this person who hurt me the most. Forgiveness is actually God's prescription for the hurting human heart to heal. I don't even have to have a forgiveness conversation with them. It's for me. And so I deserve to stop suffering because of what another person did, and so do you. You know, it's so powerful. I had, again, I've studied a lot of biblical medicine, wrote a book on it, but I also really have studied a lot of these sort of ancient forms of medicine like Chinese medicine.

32:26And by the way, it's so funny because most Christians understand it's just kind of a different language now and a different way of sort of interpreting reading the body. Like we read blood work today. There's a way to read the body or feel someone's pulse. Look at their tongue. Look at their eyes. Look at the color of their skin. I mean, you can tell so much from the human body. But one of the things they'll say that affects the liver is part of that. So they would say unforgiveness actually shuts down two organ systems in your body. They would say it's resentment tied to something in the past.

32:57The past is tied to your immune system. It's your colon and it's your lower digestive system, which is kind of what you have. And so if you've had something happen in the past and you have not let go of it, that affects that area. The unforgiveness part, the resentment part of it that's living with unforgiveness impacts the liver. And they would say it causes your liver to be stuck. Well, now your liver cannot clear and detoxify. And when we're talking about something like cancer, the two primary organ channels that cause cancer are your immune system and your detoxification system. And so anyways, but just to point out, unforgiveness is, in my understanding in medicine, maybe the most harmful of all emotions you can have, especially increasing your cancer risk because it's so hard on two organ systems simultaneously.

33:47I agree with that. You know, Duke University came out with a study that said this very thing. They said one of the number one killers in America right now is unforgiveness. Really? And I was so shocked that this very secular university would actually acknowledge that forgiveness is necessary because, of course, forgiveness is the cornerstone of the Christian faith. Yeah. You know? Wow. And so I became very fascinated by that. And I'll use that sometimes when I talk to people about forgiveness. Because, look, the resistance to forgiveness, boy, do I get it. Yeah. You see, bitterness can actually feel like a protective thing for us.

34:25Yeah. It's like if I feel bitter against this person, then I can create enough emotional, maybe even physical distance to where I can keep myself safe. But bitterness is not the solve here. It's appropriate boundaries that are the solve. Because bitterness, it doesn't just want to be a feeling in our heart. Bitterness wants to be a consuming feeling. And it will absolutely consume you from the inside out. And so I do believe that for the sake of our health, not just emotional, but for the sake of our spiritual health and our physical health, forgiveness is worth pursuing. But I also want to say, I recognize when we say the word forgiveness, people often attach it to the hardest thing that they walk through, the worst thing someone else has done.

35:13And so I get it. But again, I go back to that statement I said earlier. Forgiveness is not an unfair gift that you're giving to them. It's your opportunity to choose to move forward. And so putting a stake in the ground saying, I deserve to stop suffering because of what this other person has done. Yeah. You know, in a way, we covered a couple systems here that get diseased and damaged with emotional trauma. We talked a little bit about the liver, this detoxification system, immune system. Another thing that I think is so interesting, control. You know, that actually impacts the upper digestive system.

35:51Okay. And control is, you know, I spent some time reading like a lot of the ancient philosophers like Aristotle and these people. And they talk about this thing where it's like, it's called the golden mean, like, okay, you want to love people, but not enable them, right? Like, so there's this sort of balance of what you want to have when it comes to things. And so you want to control things that are maybe within your control, not the things that are out of your control. And I think of a lot of times with taking care of so many moms with this, it's like, okay, like this is so hard as a mom. Right now, like my wife, we've got a, about to be six-year-old and a two-year-old.

36:25And there's this element of, okay, they're your baby chicks. Like you're supposed to protect them and watch out for them. But at the same time, you need to keep giving them more and more and more freedom and releasing control just gradually more and more and more over time. But what gets a lot of people in trouble is this. You're trying to over control things. Right. And so walk me through because, you know, most people wouldn't think of that as the same way as like bitterness or unforgiving. I mean, those things kind of sound like, you know, like like vices. Right. These sort of things. They're obvious.

36:57Yeah, more awful moral failings in a way, or again, bad moral habits. But control doesn't seem, you know, that doesn't seem that bad. Yeah. So here's the thing, and I just want to let everyone take a deep breath right here. As a parent, of course you want to control. Like, of course you do. As someone who loves any person that you see making mistakes that you know are not going to end well, of course you want to control. Of course you want to rescue. Of course you want to save. Of course you want to manage them and their choices because you can see things that appears as if they can't see or they don't care about the consequences.

37:43So I just want everyone to take a deep breath and go, okay, maybe we're not naturally controlling persons. You know, like maybe if you and I were going to lunch today, I would totally let you pick where we go. I would totally like let you decide the route that we would take and who else you wanted to invite and all of that. Because I'm very laid back until I get afraid. And when I get afraid, that is the pathway to me wanting to control. So it makes complete sense that parents want to control because we want so much for our kids. and we get afraid of what might happen if they don't make the choices that we feel are the right choices and the safe choices and the good choices that lead to a good eventual outcome.

38:26So there's two words that I want us to focus on that I think are really important. One is steward. Now, when we say steward, we often think of a good financial steward. We often attach that. But I want you to think of steward as someone who is taking their responsibility seriously, okay? So we want to be a good steward. The other word is control. Now, let me tell you the perspective of someone who's in stewardship mode. Can I mention something else about stewardship that I'm curious? Like the other thing when I think about stewardship is I'm stewarding over something that I don't fully own. Exactly.

39:04Yeah. Yeah. So you are helping manage what is within your control to manage. That's the perspective of a steward. I will manage what is in my responsibility to help manage. I will do that. And I have a scope. I'm limited in my scope because I can't control another person. I can't make other people do things. I can't make people see things. I can't make them have a certain narrative. But I'm going to be responsible to manage what is within my ability to manage. So that's the thought process of someone who's in the stewardship mode, Someone who's in control mode, that's not what their thought process is.

39:44Control mode is I have to do whatever I can do to get the outcome that I think is best. And then the release mantra of a steward is at the end of the day, I have made peace that I can only do what I can do. So the outcome of this, I have to leave in the hands of God. Ultimately, a controlling mantra is I am only willing to accept. the outcome that I think is best. And that perpetuates us always trying to control whatever we're afraid of. Yeah. Can I share something? I went through this. One of the most stressful experiences I've ever been through was when I was months away from moving to Nashville, opening my own clinic.

40:27So when I was in school and I was in student clinic and I was seeing patients for the first time. And I was seeing a lot of people telling them what to do. Some of would follow what I advise them. We're seeing great results somewhere. It just depends, you know, depending on the person. But I went in, I felt this like massive, for some reason, I felt like this massive heaviness. And I went in to see my pastor. I had a great pastor. And I sat down with him and he was one of these pastors. He was actually like, he was a surfer too. And he was, and he taught at the seminary school. He's just really brilliant guy.

40:58But like, I went in there and then he just didn't talk. He just sat there. And we probably sat there for five minutes. I I didn't say anything. And finally, I'm like, Larry, I'm like, I feel like I am trying to like carry the weight in the world on my shoulders. I said, I feel like so exhausted right now. Most of that I feel like I can't even cry. Like, I'm like, I just feel really heavy. And we started, he started asking me questions, just talking about things. He's like, Josh, it sounds to me like you're trying to control things that are out of your control and that God should be controlling.

41:26And basically came down to this. I felt like if my patients didn't see a great result, it was completely my fault. but it's like I couldn't control whether they went home and ate salmon, you know, and whether they were taking their supplements, whether they were doing. But I felt like that was completely on me. That was fully my responsibility. And so him kind of talking me through that, and I walked out of there like the weight of the world was off my shoulders. I felt this sense of responsibility. No, my job is just to love them and be a good doctor, put the best plan together. My goal is not to heal them.

41:56That's God's job. That's right. So for me, I experienced that letting go of control was such a release for me emotionally. It was like, again, I felt it physically almost immediately. Yeah, there's this fascinating word that when my therapist first threw it out, I was like, oh, that does not apply to me at all. And it's this word called codependency. And I was like, that doesn't apply to me. I'm a very independent person. Remember my shame script? Don't ever be an inconvenience to anyone, right? So I was like, oh, no, I'm very independent. I'm definitely not struggling with codependency. And he said, well, think about the definition this way.

42:36I need you to be okay so I can be okay. So how can I make you okay? Because I want to feel okay, okay? And boy, when he said that, I thought that hits the nail on the head. And that's often where we find we're crossing from being a faithful steward, managing only what is within our ability to manage to be responsible, but we cross over into control is when I need this person to be okay or else I can't feel okay yeah so then I have to control things to make them okay because if they're not okay I'm not okay and I need to feel okay okay yeah right and so that's kind of what I see in that story it's like you need your patients to be okay so that you can feel like a good that's right yeah and if if if they're doing the program and you feel like a good doctor then you're okay but if they're not okay then you're not okay and you need them to be okay okay that's right that's exactly right i think that's a simple way for people to go huh am i doing that yeah is it that i need someone else to be okay because if they're not okay then i'm not okay now look as parents this is going to be a complicated one of course you don't feel good when your children aren't doing good right yeah but there's a difference between feeling deep emotion and needing them to be okay or else you can't stabilize.

44:01You've got to be able to stabilize on your own. And so because you're going to need to stabilize on your own, there are certain things that you're going to have to make peace with what you can't control. I mean, this is one I can tell you my mom has dealt with for so long because she was just so invested in her kids as so many moms are. And so being able to like say, God, you know, Like give that to them, I know was such a big part. Because when my mom had cancer, we really went in depth doing a lot of the type of work you're talking about of like, she was such a people pleaser. I mean, that was something that just really going through of like network called to please God, not people.

44:36And letting go of her worry, letting go of her fear. I mean, it was such a big part of her healing journey. And another big one was this for my mom. And this is one of the last things I really want to dive into with you is setting boundaries, right? By the way, I don't know if you ever look at personality profiles, whether it's the Big Five or Enneagram or Myers-Briggs or Dysprofile. There's so many of these today. I'm wired to just like, that's easy for me, actually. I'm like the lay down boundaries person. I feel pretty good about that. I feel like a lot of people in my life, my mom, my wife, others, they have a lot of harder time with it.

45:11But boundaries, I mean, this was my mom growing up. Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. You want me to do this? I mean, literally, she was like the movie Yes Man. It was like the Yes Woman. She said, yes, volunteer, do everything all the time. Talk to me about boundaries, why those are important. Why are those important to healing? Okay. Well, boundaries are not meant to shove other people away. And a lot of times people hear the word boundaries and they think, oh, danger. Because maybe you've had someone be inappropriate with their boundaries to you. and they've used it as a control tactic, a manipulation tactic, or even they've tried to force you to do something.

45:52And that's not an appropriate use of boundaries. See, boundaries aren't control tactics. Boundaries are meant to have open and honest conversation to preserve what can be preserved about that relationship. And so a boundary is really your opportunity to communicate what is and is not okay, what is and is not acceptable, what you can and cannot do, your limitations. And we're all limited. We're limited because we have certain limited capacities. So think about it. You have a limited physical capacity. You have a limited financial capacity. You have a limited emotional capacity. And obviously we need to check ourselves to make sure we're not being selfish.

46:37But the reality is we're limited, not because we're bad people, we're limited because we're human. And for us to act like an unlimited supply to other people is us basically saying, I can be their savior. And we can't be their savior. We're not God. So here's a great way to think about when you're thinking about boundaries and even communicating boundaries. Where I was getting in trouble is that I was giving people like unlimited access to my limited areas of capacity. So I was giving level 10 access to some people, to my finances, to my emotional capacity, to my physical capacity. And if you're giving level 10 access to someone and they're only demonstrating a level three responsibility to have that kind of access to you, The distance between those two, that's where chaos is.

47:32And wherever chaos exists, that's where a boundary is needed. And so, so many times we think, okay, well, I need to force this person. If I'm giving them level 10 access, I need to force them to bring level 10 responsibility. But we all know we cannot make another person do anything. We can have a conversation. And if they're willing, then maybe they will lift up their area of responsibility, their level of responsibility. But if they are unwilling or incapable of anything besides level three responsibility, then we actually put a boundary on ourself and we reduce the access we grant that person down to their demonstrated level of responsibility.

48:12That's good. That's really good. You know, the other thing I think that's helped me with boundaries is one thing I just want to say, too. I love that your ministry is Proverbs 31 Ministries, right? This is the book of wisdom. It's one of my favorite books to read over and over and over again. And with that, I think also knowing what the trade-off is, like I'll give you an example. I think everybody today wants to do more with their time than they even have access to, right? It's like, I want to go on more time with my wife, more time with my kids, more time. I love my business and what I get to do and being a doctor.

48:48I have an amazing friend group here in Nashville. And so I want to spend more time on all those. I can't, right? And so one thing I try and think about is, okay, if I say yes to this, this is sacrificing time with my girls that are two and five. I mean, Chelsea and I were just talking about this yesterday. Like our two-year-old, right now the way she says my five-year-old's name is like the most cute, precious thing you've ever heard. And then she started saying it more like older now. And so Chelsea, like I was literally tearing up yesterday because she's like, she'll probably never say it like that again.

49:21You know, again, but just thinking about that, like, okay, if I give up or say yes to this thing, I'm saying no to more time with this. Yeah. You know, and so for me, that's been so convicting and helpful. Just, you know, knowing I want to spend this amount of time with my girls, with my family, but also knowing, you know what, me going and spending time with guys a day a week, that actually makes me a better husband, a better father. Like, that's something that iron sharpens iron to me. So it allows me to do more of this. But I think just being conscious, you kind of mentioned this, like I kind of know, like with weight training or something, it's like, OK, I can say yes to these and I'm going to start bending, but I'm not going to allow myself to break, like, you know, or break or harm these relationships in some way.

50:05That's right. Well, I think we have to have honest conversations with ourself. And in order to have honest conversations with ourself is we've got to provide space and time. You know, one of the number one signs of an emotionally healthy and stable person is that they can be alone with their own thoughts and be okay. And that may sound like, well, that's strange. But it actually makes a lot of sense because it's increasing your self-awareness and really having these honest conversations like, where am I hyperextending myself? Who am I allowing to have too much control over me? Or where am I people pleasing?

50:42or where am I demonstrating some levels of codependency? You know, those kinds of self-awareness conversations, that's really gonna lead to positive action. But if we never take the time to be self-aware, we'll just continue with the flow. We'll continue the codependency, the people pleasing, the controlling. We'll just continue it all because to some extent, it makes us feel like, hey, we're doing pretty good. Like we're getting what we want. But in reality, you know, I know you've probably read this book, The body keeps the score, you know, and we just don't realize that every time we hyper extend, every time we just sit in the trauma and the unforgiveness and the bitterness in the overworking, overspending, overeating, all of that has such a dramatic impact.

51:31So I think boundaries are a really important thing, but we also need to remember, like, we've got to put boundaries on ourself. Yeah. And sometimes that's the hardest place to be honest for us is how can we put appropriate boundaries on ourself to say, I will extend this far, but not this far. Yeah. You know, one of the reasons I've loved this conversation is this is so important in healing and being your best. You know, when I think about, I think there's a couple of things that are real important. One, in the past I was really, and I still love goal setting, setting a vision for your life, vision board, those things.

52:06Like I really love that. And that's really important. But what's just as important sometimes more is knowing where are you at now, you know, and being able to have this level. And I would really say that's more emotional intelligence, self-awareness of saying, OK, doing that exercise you talked about, the egg exercise, like what are my hurts? What are these emotions I'm feeling? What is the narrative and story I keep telling myself? Becoming aware of where you are now. And it's kind of like if I'm creating a health plan for somebody, I mentioned this, I really like doing, you know, the blood work.

52:38I know where you are now. And then we have the goal of, hey, we're going to help you lose 20 pounds. We're going to reverse the autoimmune disease. We're going to get these hormones and these blood work within the normal levels. That's a goal, right? That's the future. But kind of knowing both of those, but you have to go and do this. Just take some time and read the books and see the counselor or the person and get some guidance on. Hey, where am I at now? Do I not have boundaries? Am I saying yes to everything? Am I living with some unforgiveness? What are those things? Becoming aware. and then being able to become your best you, become more Christ-like and healing.

53:11And so I love that. And I want to say this too. So I was driving here and I talked to my mom a lot. And I was saying, I've got a podcast. I'm like, you'll probably know who's on today, Lisa Turkhurst. And she was so excited. By the way, when I'd say certain people, I mean, by the way, you're up there in the top like 10 for her. She loves, I mean, Joyce Meyer, you know, Lisa Bevere. I told her recently, John Eldridge, I had him on. But she loves you. She loves your books. And so she was really excited. So she's going to be excited to watch this episode. But I want to encourage everybody to check out Lisa's new book.

53:44It's Making Peace with What I Can't Control. Her books are fantastic. They're in bookstores nationwide. Again, New York Times bestselling author here. Amazon.com, a great and easy place to go get the book here as well. It'll be coming out here very soon. And again, I want to encourage you guys to get the book here. It's a great one. She's got a lot of great books that you can check out online on Amazon there as well. But I want to encourage you guys to check out this latest book here. And Lisa, where can people find out more about you and your amazing work you're doing? So Proverbs31.org is my ministry.

54:19They can also, if you're interested in a healing retreat that I do, HavenPlace.org is the place to go. I built a small retreat center on my property in North Carolina. and I bring in a therapist, a theologian, and myself using experiential wisdom. And we do these intensive retreats to help people on their healing journey. We've got a couple coming up on forgiving what you can't forget. We've talked a lot about forgiveness today. So it is going to fast track your healing and give you a real chance at pursuing forgiveness. And what does it look like? How do I do it? What are my markers of success?

54:57All of that. I also do one called Surviving an Unwanted Divorce, and we do another one called Good Boundaries and Goodbyes. So you can check out that. You can find me on Instagram, at Lisa Turkhurst. My name is spelled kind of weird, L-Y-S-A-T, and then it'll pop up wherever. You can find me on all the social media channels. Well, Lisa, thanks so much. And hey, I want to encourage you guys to, if you're watching on YouTube, leave a comment. Have you dealt with some sort of major betrayal or pain? We'd love to hear from you. Know how we can support you, pray for you. And was there something that Lisa shared, just a piece of wisdom that really resonated with you, something you're excited about?

55:34Have you read one of Lisa's books? We would love to hear from you on that as well. Also, just remember this. We were talking about this. Your body is keeping score. If you don't deal with this stuff, it's like keeping poison in your system. We've got to get rid of this so you can heal physically, mentally, spiritually, and take your health and your life to the next level. Also remember, the number one thing you can do to support the show here is subscribe. Just know I'm so grateful for all of you that are subscribed to the show here and share this. There are so many people today dealing with emotional and spiritual pain that's also causing physical pain, and this could help somebody heal and transform their life.

56:09So thank you all for subscribing, for sharing, for being on mission with us. We can't wait to see you on the next episode.