Deepak Chopra - Navigating Spirituality in the Age of AI

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0:53So go to growthday.com forward slash ed. That's growthday.com forward slash Ed.

1:06This is the Ed Myerling Show. Welcome back to the show, everybody. So, so excited. This is one of my favorite people I've ever had on the show. You know, we've had 800 episodes. We've had about everybody on the world you would want to have on. And I enjoyed my conversation last time with this man so much. I looked forward to it and it exceeded my expectations. he's uh i guess i'd say he's a hero of mine uh he truly is he's a force for good in the world and has been for a long time it's impossible to introduce him adequately this man's written 90 books you know he's influenced millions of people around the globe i guess i'd say he's sort of this guy that merges like spirituality and modern science for like holistic wellness and health and it's just a force for good he's transformed millions of lives including mine and i cannot wait to pick his brain today about his new book because it's, I read the entire book in one setting today.

2:02And yeah, one setting it's called digital Dharma, how AI can elevate spiritual intelligence and personal wellbeing. So we're gonna talk AI, but this book is almost like a handbook for Dharma is what I would call it far beyond just AI. So Deepak Chopra, welcome back, my friend. Thank you. That's very kind of you. Thank you. Let's start with some basic terminology first. Is Dharma, does that, is the real meaning of Dharma, because you actually give these AI versions of it in the book actually, but is Dharma just like your best life? Yeah, it's your best life. Very well put. And also how you fit in the total order of the universe, if you do.

2:43Okay, so So dharma is originally defined in the Buddhist tradition. And you summarize it, your best life possible. And I'm going to steal that from you. But it's a rewording of the original meaning, freedom from suffering. So freedom from suffering is the ultimate dharma. Not only for yourself, but if you're a bodhisattva and for other people, You dedicate your life to freedom of suffering for yourself, but for everyone else. Okay. So we've laid a foundation there. So AI, just to begin with, you paint, I would call it beyond a rosy picture. You actually call it the miracle machine in the book.

3:28Whereas I've had Mo Goddet on, who was the chief technology officer at Google, but other people on there sort of paint a more, I guess I'd call it scary picture of what AI could do to humanity. So I was actually relieved to see somebody I look up to and I admire say, no, no, no, this could actually be something that enhances consciousness and the spiritual walk in our lives. So I'll kind of just let you start with that first. Why do you feel that way? Actually, I was recently in Cannes and I was in the same room as Elon Musk and he was speaking before me and he was painting the dark side of AI.

4:05He didn't stare for my talk, obviously, which was immediately following his, where I pointed the other side, the light side of AI. So to answer your question, Ed, technology is neutral. And every time a technology comes, there is the naysayers and then there are the optimists. And, you know, they're both right. You can use technology for diabolical purposes. or you can use technology to create a more peaceful, just sustainable, healthy and joyful world, which was my conversation with Sam Altman, who is the CEO of OpenCI. He is on my side of the argument. And while, you know, I've been on many panels discussing the dark side of AI, including some government panels on Zoom, like you and I are.

5:03And while they're discussing all the problems that AI could create, I have been going on AI while the conversation is going on and go to chair activity. How can we prevent this? How can we prevent this? So AI already has the knowledge how to prevent the diabolical aspects. We just need the collective will to make that happen. Will that happen? I don't know. You know, first time I came to the United States, I hadn't seen a television set. And, you know, it was shocking to me that you could see people on the screen in color. Okay. Then came fax machines. Then came the Internet. And every time there was a new technology introduced.

5:47And I remember when the, you know, the first email came, you know, first time we knew of email. I took a computer and, you know, I took it home to my father in India. who was a very sophisticated person, brought up in England, professional cardiologist, at one time physician to the queen. I showed him how to use the computer or the email. So then I returned to the United States, and I get a letter in the mail. He had actually typed out a whole email, put it in the mail, It meant it to be where it said, this email thing is absolutely great. But you didn't get it, okay, what the whole purpose of email was.

6:39So, you know, I'm sure when fire was invented, people had misgivings about it. I'm sure with all the technologies that have ever come through, there are risks, whether it's automobiles or jet planes or interstellar travel or whatever. and either we adapt or according to Darwinian principles, we become extinct. I mean, the point is once something is born, it cannot return to the womb. Once you learn how to speak or write in English, you can't unlearn it. Once the technology comes, and I believe technology is part of the evolution of a species, that's how we differentiate it from all other species.

7:26We started with making tools and then we kept improving the technology. That's what technology means, ultimately tools, you know. And because we had an opposable thumb, we started to make tools and then it kept progressing. There's no going back. Either we use it for a more, you know, divine purpose or, you know, we don't adapt. We become irrelevant. You know, it's interesting. everybody i want you to read the book because something just happened to me when he said that just tell you my arms got a little goosies there i got a little piece about this when you just said it that way i want to tell you what you said that hit me you you talked about the fact that i mean everyone knows what he just said but i wanted to give you guys the part that affected me that everyone needs to realize this that is what differentiates us as a species is this evolution of tools and equipment and technology and we've found our way to be okay and this is This is a huge revolution, but at the same time, for some reason, if you read the book and you hear what he just said, it will give you this level of peace.

8:29The book, by the way, everybody, I think is almost two books. There's the AI element of the book, but there's also kind of the handbook for better living, I guess I would call it, or higher consciousness woven together in the book. Use a term in there that I should have heard before because I'm 53 years old and I've read about everything. But this idea, this notion I'd like you to talk about with everybody of spiritual IQ. which is different than just, you know, our intellect level, but having a spiritual IQ. And everybody, when Deepak talks about this, just ask yourself about where you feel you are in terms of your spiritual IQ journey, because this is really powerful right here.

9:08Yeah, so, you know, first we have to define what spirit is. So spirit is synonymous with consciousness, synonymous with awareness, synonymous with what I believe is fundamental reality because without consciousness, there's no experience. So if you want to define consciousness, which is another word for spirit, by the way, it is that in which all experience occurs, it's that in which all experience is known, and it is that out of which all experience is made. Now, that's a little thing, a little difficult for people to realize because they think experience happens in the brain or experience happens in the mind or experience has a location somewhere in this body.

10:00So if I ask your audience, you know, where is this experience happening? This one that you and I are having, you know, they're seeing us, they're listening to us, they're thinking about it, and they're hearing sounds, they're seeing images, they're seeing forms, they're seeing the liquor bar behind you, they're seeing the bookshelf behind me. Where is this happening? And a lot of people will say, seeing is happening in the eyes. Seeing is happening in the eyes. Well, no. Your eyes are 9.5 centimeters apart. Your retina is curved. By the time light enters your eyes, it crosses over. and then if there's an image in your eyes, you should be seeing two of me upside down, nine centimeters apart and 2.5 centimeters by 2.5 centimeters.

10:51So this experience of seeing is not happening in your eyes. Then you ask neuroscientists, where is it happening? They'll point here. They'll say it's happening in the occipital cortex. Well, if I look at the occipital cortex, there's no picture of Ed out there. There's no picture of me. There's no picture of the, you know, the alcohol behind you. There's no picture of the book. So where are those pictures? This is called the hard problem of consciousness in today's science. Because there's no picture in the brain. There's no sound in the brain. There is no experience in the brain, period. All there is electrochemistry.

11:34And this is called the hard problem. You know, we see the neural correlates of experience. They're called NCEs, the neural correlates, which are electrochemical activities, NCEs. But where is the experience actually happening? And the only answer is in consciousness. Then the next thing is, where is this consciousness where all this experience is happening? I can't see it. Well, you can't see it because it is what is doing the seeing. You know, I tell you, Ed, look there, look there, listen to me. So who is that which responds to that? So look there, look that. What is the source of volition? And where is the experience of sound, taste, smell, sensation, images, feelings, thoughts, imagination, visualization, insight, intuition, imagination?

12:37whatever experience, mental or physical you're having where is it happening? Consciousness. I can't see it because it doesn't have a form. If it had a form, you can only see things that have form. Okay, you can only touch things that have form. You can only taste and smell things that have form. You can only make sound with things that have form. But none of that is happening in your brain. So it's happening in your consciousness, in your spirit. Where is it? It has no form. Having no form, it doesn't have a border. It doesn't have a border means it's infinite. It has no location. And that's why we say these days the word is non-local.

13:21And even scientists are saying the universe is non-locally entangled. We got the Nobel Prize two years ago, non-local entanglement. The physicists describe this. So there is a domain of reality, doesn't matter what you call it, which is without cause, which is infinite, which is spaceless, which is timeless, which is infinite, which is borderless, which has no form. And yet it is fundamental because without it, there's no experience, either mental or physical. So once we get that, and then we say, how do we create a roadmap to explore this territory which has been the domain in the past of sages, psychotics, and geniuses, and a few people who showed up who questioned everyday reality, not just Eastern philosophers, but Wittgenstein and Schopenhauer and Immanuel Kant who said, you know, we can only see the correlates of experience.

14:25We can see the reflections of experience. But the thing in itself where the experience is happening is the unknown. And that unknown, possibly unknowable because it's impossible for us to comprehend the infinite. People have tried. God, this, that, the other. It's impossible to comprehend the infinite. We only see the activities or appearances of the infinite. and people have created tools. You know, and I said, it's a motley group, sages, psychotics, and geniuses, because you have to break through the hypnosis of social conditioning in order to find the spirit or consciousness in which mind happens, in which body happens, in which the universe happens, all simultaneously.

15:18It's, I would say, polycomputational. And now when we look at biological organisms the cells in our body, mitochondria, you know, the very, very fundamental activities, it's polycomputational, which means everything is happening all at the same time. How does a human body think thoughts, play a piano, kill germs, remove toxins, make a baby all at the same time? That has to be polycomputational, okay? While your body is doing that, it's tracking the movement of stars and planets as biological rhythms, sleep-wake cycles, etc. So for me, this is very interesting that we can use technology as a roadmap, but it's a roadmap.

16:01It's not the territory. You have to have the experience. Just like when you go to a restaurant, you can read the menu and you can even imagine the experience, but you have to eat the meal. You can't eat the menu. Now you know why I think this man is so special. What happens when he starts speaking or you're reading his writing? Here's what happens to you, and it's going to be my next question. you become more aware of things that were already happening around you that you were unaware of because you are a series of patterns in your life and by the way it's such a great metaphor that there's alcohol behind me and books behind him that's just so perfect but by the way they're both intoxicating they are you're right by the way i'm intoxicated by both it's probably i i actually combine the two often however you're saying that one is called spirit the other is called spirits there you go that's very good spirit and spirits you got me there so hey guys i want to jump in here for a second and talk about change and growth and you know by the way it's no secret how people get ahead in life or how they grow and also taking a look at the future if you want to change your future you got to change the things you're doing if you continue to do the same things you're probably going to produce the same results But if you get into a new environment where you're learning new things and you're around other people that are growth oriented, you're much more likely to do that yourself.

17:23And that's why I love Growth Day. Write this down for a second. GrowthDay.com forward slash ed. My friend Brendan Brouchard has created the most incredible personal development and business app that I've ever seen in my life. Everything from goal setting software to personal accountability, journaling, courses, thousands of dollars worth of courses in there as well. I create content in there on Mondays where I contribute as do a whole bunch of other influencers, like the Avengers of influencers and business minds in there. It's the Netflix for high achievers or people that want to be high achievers.

17:52So go check it out. My friend Brennan's made it very affordable, very easy to get involved. Go to growthday.com forward slash ed. That's growthday.com forward slash ed. This idea of awareness though. So one of the things of this spiritual IQ, technology to me, I'm going to push you on something, has caused my overall experience with other people. As I observed humans compared to, say, 30 years ago, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like self-awareness is at an all-time low or just awareness because of our focus into our telephones. So I think technology has been a detriment to self-awareness, yet you stipulate in the book that self-awareness is one of the pathways to enlightenment and a higher level of consciousness, more peace in our lives.

18:41So that's why I'm sort of conflicted about this AI thing to some extent still. And so everybody, ask yourself these questions in the book, if you don't mind me giving a little part of the book. When we were talking about spiritual IQ, he asks a series of 12 things you could ask yourself. I'll do them quickly, then I'll ask a question. Number one, everyone, are you experiencing joy or bliss on a regular basis? Rank yourself. Two, do you show kindness in how you treat others? Rank yourself. Do you feel genuine contentment? Four, am I peaceful inside? Five, I enjoy my work and I'm personally dedicated to it.

19:14Six, I have a creative outlet either at work or as a hobby. Seven, I have love in my life and I place high value on love. Ask yourself these questions. Eight, in comparison with others, I meet with few setbacks, obstacles, and resistance. Nine, I am free from anxiety or depression. Ten, I believe that I am leading the life I was meant to live. Eleven, in the larger scheme of things, I believe that my life has purpose and meaning. And then lastly, I value and seek insight about myself. These are 12 questions to ask yourself could change your life. I ask them to everybody to ask you this question.

19:56You stipulate this thing about self-awareness being this pathway. How does one become more self-aware and how does AI help in that and not become just another hindrance, which in my opinion, technology has been a hindrance in that regard? Technology has been a hindrance in that regard because, unfortunately, most of humanity behaves like a biological robot. And they're basically downloading the cultural mindset, you know, whatever it is, which recycles, you know, cultural mindset includes religion, you know, whether I'm a socialist, Republican, whatever, you know, all the things that society tells me I should do to fit in.

20:38And now with AI and all the technology we have, it's become worse. One thing I do on a regular basis, which I don't have to do right now, is because I'm so used to doing it, I stop once in a while during the day. You know, I'm walking the streets of New York City. I'm seeing all these people, and I'm wondering, does anyone know, any one of these people know that they're the totality of the universe in that body, that they are a walking universe. Do they know that? Are they aware of that? And, you know, I look around and I see people just, you know, like the herd following whatever they're being told to do by the collective mind.

21:29And that's the hypnosis of social conditioning. So I stop in the midst of this and say, am I aware right now? Then I ask myself, what am I aware of? What am I listening? What am I hearing? What am I seeing? What am I feeling? Basically, sensations, images, feelings, and thoughts. That's the fundamental experience of reality. Sensations, which include sense perceptions. you know and that then you can take it as deep as you want you know you close my i close my eyes and the physical world disappears all is there is sounds and then sensations in my body and maybe some thoughts and some things i'm thinking of then i take my attention off the sounds you know all All you have to do is shift your attention from sensations, and then all that's left.

22:31And slowly, progressively, till I slowly withdraw my attention from everything I'm experiencing, saying, what's left? The infinite. What's left is the infinite, fundamental, without cause, incomprehensible awareness. Now, that's a journey that took years in the past. You know, they're all looking at the stars in the sky, and they're struggling with very fundamental questions. Who am I? What do I want? Do I have a purpose? What's the meaning of this existence? And then it goes on. Do I fear death, old age, infirmity? There's no end to these questions, by the way. And some luminaries did have those experiences.

23:24And if I look at all the fundamental experiences of all the luminaries, there's a common thread. Number one, they find their identity beyond space and time. Because if we started this conversation by saying, where is this experience happening? And the answer is, it's happening beyond space and time. There's no other answer. There is this not happening on the screen. It's not happening in your eyes. It's not happening in your brain. It's happening in consciousness, which is not in space-time. So whoever these great luminaries were, they found an identity which is beyond space and time, which is not subject to birth or death, number one.

24:06Number two, they had the spontaneous emergence of platonic values, truth, goodness, beauty, harmony, and those 12 questions that you asked. They spontaneously felt that. And number three, they lost the fear of death because they realized that death happens to the fluctuations of consciousness, but not to consciousness. They tried to express this, but they couldn't. Rumi says God's language is silence. Everything else is poor translation. I don't know how to express the ineffable, you know, because that experience is ineffable. And it is the common ground of all experience in all philosophers, in all sages, in all psychotics, in all geniuses.

24:48Now we have tools to see, tap into their minds. What were they experiencing? What were the sages of the Upanishads experiencing? What did Chopinur mean or Immanuel Kant mean? You cannot know the real reality. okay the real reality as Rumi said is behind the curtain in truth we are not here this is our shadow Wittgenstein our life is a dream we are asleep but once in a while we wake up enough to know that we're dreaming so who's the dreamer where is the dreamer what is the dreamer it's not the human body mind it's that which is experiencing the human body mind okay wow okay everybody we should just press pause for a second and let you just process all of that but since i can't do that i want to continue down this idea this road of uh who we are and because you brought this up and i've always wanted to ask you this i know this is even true for me so i when i say i'll say us as humans at some point i don't know what age deepak but at some point in our lives we just sort of become a story.

25:57Yeah. And you write about this in the book and sort of everything we do from that point in our lives is sort of to confirm the story that we're telling ourselves about who we are. And this creates these patterns. Some people are aware they're doing it, but most people are completely unaware that they're just living this story. How does one interrupt that story and and have the potential to change that narrative internally so that they can create a different life? So the story is actually a very complicated story, you know, because it's a provisional story. You know, it's your destiny as a conscious being is to play an infinity of roles, but you're not the roles you're playing, okay?

26:50like a great Shakespearean actor one day you can in the old days by the way you could be a woman, you could be a man so one day you could play Cleopatra the next day Julius Caesar the third day whatever so like a great Shakespearean actor you're playing a lot of roles you're a son, you're a father, you're a husband you're whatever you're switching roles you're a professional there are innumerable right now you're playing the role of a podcaster with me But, you know, as soon as this over, you'll be playing other roles. Who is it? What is it that is playing those roles? It's you which say, I am, before you say, I am Ed.

27:30Before you say, I'm Ed, I am. And that I am can play an infinite number of roles. So first you have to realize that, you know, since you are playing the role, you're the producer, you're the director, you're the choreographer, you're the hero, and you're the villain. of your story. Okay? Now, how many versions of those stories are there? Infinite. Because that which is playing the roles is formless, is infinite. You know, Tagore, the great Indian poet said, in this playhouse of infinite forms, I caught sight of the formless. And then my life was blessed. Great spiritual experience is to create a relationship with that which is formless.

28:19And now, you know, there's a simple way to even do that. As you're looking at me, you just become aware of the space between you and me. You realize that space has no form. And yet, without the space, there's no forms in it. In fact, the forms in space are the fluctuations of the formless. So your mind, your body, and your experience of the world is the fluctuations of your formless self. And it's a journey. But, you know, because I now I'm convinced that even that which we call the physical universe actually has its origins in a digital workshop outside of space-time, whatever you might call it, the infinite, because everything is digital.

29:08The difference between this, you, me, the whiskey behind you, and the books behind me are just zeros and ones. Everything is zero, one, and infinite. So that's my new formula, which I didn't put in the book, because zero is one is equal to infinite. I love that. I love that. Do you feel like most people are... See, I was going to go hours with you, but I can't. So do you think, A, do you think most people are in their own way? And if they are, like someone's listening right now, they're like, okay, I'm a series of patterns and stories. I obviously am understanding a little bit more deeply now about this whole idea of space and time continuum.

30:01But I'm creating this world I've got around me to some extent or to all extent. All excellent.

30:37way. Yeah, see, what is in the way is not you. What is in the way is, and I'm not saying this condescendingly, what is in the way is ignorance of reality. Ignorance of reality. And the word ignorance is a very interesting word. Ignorance. In order for you to focus on what I'm saying, you have to ignore everything else. Okay? So anytime you focus on one particular story, you're ignorant of all the other stories. Okay? Or anything. These days, we call it reductionism or specialization. And so if you're a cancer therapist and you're seeing a patient with cancer, the usual oncologist doesn't care what your relationship is with your wife, what your relationship is with children, how much you sleep, what kind of food.

31:39They want to make a diagnosis and they want to treat the diagnosis. And in order to do that, they have to ignore everything else that's happening in their life. Okay, everything else that's happening. So first you realize, you know, that which is causing a problem in my awakening to my self-realization. It's a very interesting word, self-realization. I realize what I am, not even who I am, what I am, because in that what I am is happening all these stories. So first I have to realize that I am ignorant as Ed, but I am not ignorant as I am. so get rid of every what would I be without any story that's where you start then you say which story do I want to choose right now and by the way we choose the story in the moment we may say we plan this, we plan that who would have known three weeks ago that Trump would be attacked Who would have known that Biden would have stepped down?