David Lammy thinks his seat is safe from the Greens

0:00There are moments that reveal who we are and who we're meant to become. For those born to lead, such moments call for a vehicle of equal distinction. Dynamic by design, uncompromising in execution, the Range Rover Sport was engineered for those rare individuals who demand the world and possess the conviction to claim it. When your time to lead arrives, you need a vehicle that rises to meet it. The Range Rover Sport. Exclusive offers available now. Explore further at RangeRover.com. The New Statesman Two weeks on from the US and Israel's coordinated attacks on Iran, the war in the Middle East is raging on.

0:43More than a thousand people have been killed, including the students and teachers of a girls' primary school in Iran. Iran is attacking civilian and energy infrastructure in neighbouring countries as they seek to destabilise the broader Middle East. Oil prices have surged and collapsed, leading to fuel rationing in parts of Asia and stock market shocks in the West. A global recession looms if the Strait of Hummers does not reopen soon. So what does it mean for our country, for Britain, in terms of energy prices and the cost of living, in terms of international law, in terms of geopolitics? The delicately trodden relationship between President Trump and Prime Minister Keir Starmer appears to be breaking down over the UK's participation.

1:27or lack thereof. So I wanted to speak to someone with direct involvement in these events, with knowledge of the situation in the Middle East and inside Downing Street. For this week's episode of The Exchange, I sat down in the Ministry of Justice with the Deputy Prime Minister, David Lammy. Is it your understanding then that these initial strikes by the Americans and Israelis are illegal? I'm not going to get into speculation because in the end that is for them, the US and Israel and their own understanding of international law. What's your understanding? Our focus, I'm not here to commentate as a lawyer.

2:04What about as the Deputy Prime Minister? But geopolitics is not the Justice Secretary's only focus this week. On Tuesday, we saw the second reading of the Controversial Courts and Tribunals Bill, a bill that seeks to radically change the use of jury trials in the UK. Certain sections of the media, but particularly the newspapers, particularly on Twitter, X now, A lot of the discourse around the reforms that you're pushing through has focused around the perpetrators of crime and the ethnic minority perpetrators of crime. The essential argument goes, you know, X person who isn't white is going to get off because of these reforms.

2:37Well, let's break that down. And finally, I couldn't speak to one of Labour's top figures and not ask about the existential crisis happening at the heart of the party. You mentioned people in Tottenham. Electoral Calculus is actually forecasting the Greens to win your seat in Tottenham. They're 80 % on. I can 100 % tell you, knowing my seat as I do, that there is no prospect of the Greens taking my constituency. I'm Olly Dougmore and you're listening to The Exchange from The New Statesman.

3:11David Lammy, hello. Hello. We are going to talk about so much today, court reform, what's going on in the Labour Party, but it would be remiss of me to not make reference to events in the Middle East that have developed over the weekend. I should caution our watchers, listeners, that we're speaking early Monday afternoon. They'll be watching this sometime on Wednesday and obviously a lot could change in the intervening period. But nevertheless, could you give us an update on the government's position as relates to the war in Iran? Well, I think that the important news today is really the meeting that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is having with her G7 colleagues about the impact on oil prices and any digital prices more generally, there clearly has been quite a lot of fluctuation.

3:57And I think all of us in government recognise that there'll be a lot of anxiety and concern in the country. I think it does underlie why it has been so important to have stable finances as the Chancellor set out at the spring budget, but also the importance of investing in renewable energies so that you're not at the mercy of international oil price fluctuation and the importance of having the energy cap, which we have, of course, until the end of June. I want to return to talk about the economic shock because the ripples of it could obviously be pretty far-reaching. But if we could dial into the geopolitical side of this, particularly that relationship with the White House.

4:47I know it's a relationship you were very directly involved in as the Foreign Secretary. Obviously, you have a very close affinity with America on a personal level. And the Prime Minister has always been viewed as someone who had a very effective personal relationship with President Trump. And to my mind, to my reading, it seems like an opening has started to appear, particularly as relates to this war. Is that a correct diagnosis of the way the relationship's changing? I've always said that the special relationship that the UK has with the US is underpinned by some very very serious facts and reality we have troops currently at work in the United States they have troops currently at work here in the UK we have the closest of intelligence relationships the closest anywhere in the world.

5:40We've got over a trillion dollars invested in each other's countries. We've got over a million people in each other's companies either side of the Atlantic. You would struggle to find any countries, two countries in the world with that proximity, with that close underpinning of a relationship. Now, look, it doesn't mean that UK and US leaders have not disagreed. There was disagreement between Churchill and Roosevelt over the handling of Stalin from the middle to the end of the Second World War. There was disagreement between the Wilson government and LBJ in relation to the Vietnam War. There was disagreement, despite having the closest of relationships between Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan on America's invasion of Grenada and the fact that he did not tell Margaret Thatcher that that was about to happen.

6:40So, and actually, even Blair and Clinton disagreed over the best way to deal with Milosevic and the US commitment at that time. So there can be disagreement. And for me, it's been incredible to work side by side with the Prime Minister, as I have done, to watch him and how he works in this most difficult situation. and absolutely underpinned by his understanding of international law, by the fact that he will absolutely not commit British troops to anything that could be deemed illegal, and the learning that we have rightly had of both what went wrong during the Iraq war and Chilcot, and what that means for the way that we should conduct public service at this time.

7:35Is it your understanding then that these initial strikes by the Americans and Israelis are illegal? I'm not going to get into speculation because in the end, that is for them, the US and Israel, and their own understanding of international law. What's your understanding? Our focus, I'm not here to commentate as a lawyer. What about as a deputy prime minister? I qualified as a lawyer now back in 1995. Perhaps if you were still paid, if I'd been paid, I might comment as a lawyer. But I'm going to leave that to others. but more seriously our duty here in the UK is to make sure that we are satisfied with our obligations for our armed service personnel and you do not want a situation where our armed service personnel are in the line of fire and are worried about the legal basis for them to act and that's why we were really clear that defensively, of course, we can act to protect our armed services, to protect our allies, to protect lots of civilians that are right across the Gulf at the moment, worried, worried about the situation that they are in as they shelter for their lives.

8:48Because there's a legal basis for that defensive action. There is a legal basis for that defensive action. But there isn't one for offensive action. Again, I mean, we were clear that we would not act offensively. And there are determinations that then have to be made by the Chief of Defence staff and those armed service members making judgments about what is within the law. And I must leave that rightly for them. You mentioned the relationship between Churchill and Roosevelt. Obviously, President Trump has made some slightly derisory remarks about the Prime Minister saying he's no Churchill. I wonder if, well, actually, I just sort of invite your remarks.

9:26When you heard that Donald Trump had said that, what did you think? I didn't think much of it because, to be honest, you know, I've now been in politics for 26 years. I lived through the first Trump term. I've had close engagement with Donald Trump as he's been present. I was Foreign Secretary, now Deputy Prime Minister. And there's an intense rhetoric from Donald Trump. I think we all know that. and that's not unique to the uk i mean that that that's for actors all over the world so you know you you in the end i i'm more focused on the substance uh and the substance of the relationship the uk and the us have is is is will always be a very close one okay let's let's turn to the the substance then particularly as regards this this military intervention because another one of the remarks that trump made was that he viewed the prime minister as weighing in on a war that has already been won.

10:22What does winning this war look like? Is there a version of winning this war? Because to my mind, there's actually quite a lot of ambiguity about what the Americans are trying to achieve here. Well, look, I mean, I was very much in the driving seat last year around Iran's nuclear ambitions. I sat with the Iranian Foreign Secretary on several occasions. I spoke the Iranian Foreign Secretary on several occasions, working with my counterparts in France and Germany because of their nuclear ambitions. And I've got to say, when pressed about why Iranian enrichment was quite what it was, I did not find their answers very satisfactory.

11:06So there was a lot of diplomatic effort to get the Iranians to come to the table and get serious about that. And by the way, to get serious about their ballistic missile capability, why they would need ballistic missiles that could hit Southern Europe is not clear to any of us. And that diplomacy was going on. And clearly, Donald Trump and Benjamin Netanyahu have sought to then intervene militarily. That is a decision that they've made. And you will know that the position of the UK has been to pursue that diplomacy. And I was in the midst of pursuing that. Given your close understanding of both the politics and indeed the region, I just invite your comment about the possibility of a peaceful transfer of power in Iran.

11:58Because to my mind, there's a pretty solid base of the population that is supportive of the regime, let's call it about 20%. We've obviously just seen the dead Ayatollah's son now become the supreme leader. But let's say even if the Americans were able to realise regime change, what that looks like and whether it happens peacefully to me, I'm quite sceptical about that. Well, I think that, you know, those who are viewing this or will be reading the New Statesman will, of course, be reflecting on intervention, more generally an intervention in the Middle East, recognizing that there was always a risk that the IRGC could be replaced by an even harder line IRGC, if that's possible, that transitioning to a sort of democratically accountable or an effective government that is responsive to the will of the people in Iran is not straightforward, that there isn't really much of a successful example of an air war that has brought about those transitions.

13:12But equally, you can suddenly see regimes fall, as we saw happen in Syria. All of those things, I'm sure, are potential outcomes and are in the mix as the United States in Israel make their calculations. You've made reference to previous interventions in the Middle East. And I'd like to hear your understanding, or for you to draw a comparison, actually, perhaps, to the Blair years as regards foreign policy. The similarities, differences. I know Tony Blair, I think he said, we should have backed America from the very beginning. But obviously, it's a different geopolitical moment now. How do you understand the similarity between in his time as prime minister in the world that we find ourselves in now.

13:59I just think having served in both governments now, it is important to say that obviously I served in the Tony Blair government as a junior minister, clearly in this government. You know, I'm right in the driving seat of power alongside the PM, but there are big differences. The central difference is the economic inheritance. You know, when I look back on the Tony Blair era, it was every single year we had growth in the economy. There were poor public services, but growth in the economy. Our inheritance this time is chronically underfunded public services in a very bad economy. And in fact, an economic downturn that's really been happening since 2008.

14:48So the volatility in the public mind, the upset in the public mind about cost of living, the prospect for them, their children, their grandchildren is significant. And the weariness, frankly, also in relation to conflict this time is very strong. We have a war in Europe, in Ukraine. We've had the most horrific of conflicts in the Middle East, in Gaza, clearly, following the horrendous activities of October the 7th. And of course, we now have conflict with Iran. And we also have a very changing geopolitical context because frankly, the United States is rivaled as a superpower with China as well.

15:35It's a dramatically different context. What I see in Tony Blair, in Keir Starmer's story, working up close with him, is someone who has a very clear moral compass, in part because of his understanding of international law. And a very clear sense of right and wrong in relation to that one. I also, because I was so closely involved in opposition and then in government in our foreign policy, there is a desire to see Britain engaged, reconnected in the world, a deepening of our relations in Europe. And you've seen a lot happening between the United Kingdom, France and Germany, centrally in Europe, I think is very, very important at this time.

16:22And then, yes, we have learned the lessons of the war in Iraq and the importance of the Chilcot Inquiry and how then we pursue public policy and come to the right decision. Maybe Tony Blair should learn some of those lessons as well. um let's dial in you mentioned that the economic situation and obviously oil prices are surging gas prices are surging you mentioned uh the g7 energy meeting that's taking place later today rachel reeves etc but obviously britains are worried already about the cost of living on a domestic side not just the geopolitical and the diplomatic one what's the government doing to protect britains from very likely an increase in their energy prices well the first thing is after the terrible inheritance and the seesaw, kamikaze, Liz Truss period stabilized the economy.

17:17See those interest rates falls that we've seen, six, inflation coming down, borrowing coming down, doing everything you can to get growth back again in the UK economy. And I think you see in the Sprig budget and in the Chancellor of the Exchequer's pursuit of growth, a very steady hand. And that's the foundation, because if you're jumping all over the place, there is no foundation, that's the first thing. The second thing is an absolute commitment to renewables, to clean energy, not moving off that, despite some off the offside saying, move off that, because in the end, You do not want to be at the mercy and the volatility of fluctuations in the international energy prices in our markets.

18:03So that must be also the right pursuit. And then a forensic focus on cost of living. And that's why it's important to have the energy price cap until the end of June. To be cutting energy bills, I think,£117. pounds um uh come april to see that reduction um and to be just focused always on how can we help the consumer uh how can we help the british public recognizing that for them it's about affordability um in their everyday uh utilities and indeed when they go to the supermarket the a and rac are advising people to cut down on necessary driving journeys prices in america certainly for gasoline dramatically increased over the course of the weekend yes the price cap exists for energy bills right now but it seems pretty likely that when that comes to revisit i think the decision is i think announced mid to late may already so it's soon that price cap exists now what happens afterwards i can't speculate on where we're going to get to partly because what we're seeing is volatility.

19:17I mean, when I last looked earlier on today, a barrel of oil was at$104. It went up to$119 just a few hours before. So there's a lot of volatility first. But what I can say is, judge us on our actions, we pressed the Conservative government very hard in opposition because they were not supporting the British people in relation to energy and a proper energy price cap. We introduced that. We are focused on affordability and the cost of living. And I'm quite sure that the chance of the exchequer, the energy minister will be focused on that in the coming months, as you'd expect. We're going to take a quick break now, but stay with us.

20:06There are moments that reveal who we are and who we're meant to become. For those born to lead, Such moments call for a vehicle of equal distinction. Dynamic by design, uncompromising in execution, the Range Rover Sport was engineered for those rare individuals who demand the world and possess the conviction to claim it. When your time to lead arrives, you need a vehicle that rises to meet it. The Range Rover Sport. Exclusive offers available now. Explore further at RangeRover.com. Thumbtack presents Uncertainty Strikes. I was surrounded. The aisle and the options were closing in. There were paint rollers, satin and matte finish, angle brushes and natural bristles.

20:47There were too many choices. What if I never got my living room painted? What if I couldn't figure out what type of paint to use? What if I just used Thumbtack? I can hire a top-rated pro that knows everything about interior paint, easily compare prices and read reviews. Thumbtack knows homes. Download the app today.

21:09Let's talk about the justice side of your brief. I want to talk to you about court reform I want to talk to you about inheritance I want to talk about the quite radical approach that you guys are taking to try and clear some of that backlog First though can you tell me about the first time you went into a prison? Oh I first went into a prison

21:31as I was very young I must have been younger than 10 or 11 because I was visiting a relative in prison this was the 1970s it wasn't uncommon for the black community to have someone in the extended family who was inside and I remember it being the most scary of experiences as a minor to visit a relative in prison and it affected my childhood greatly the biggest thing i feared was being locked up and actually i've got to say at that time it was being it was also being stitched up there were lots of issues between the black community and the police um at that time particularly um and so in a way that then guides me towards being a lawyer um to get as far away from that possibility as possible and to be really caught up with social justice and seeking justice on behalf of communities.

22:40But I found that experience incredibly affecting. And look, it concerns me greatly at the moment in Britain. We've got this rising remand population. These are often young men in prison. At the moment, the average is about six months waiting for trial. That figure's going south. A lot of those young people are ethnic minorities waiting there because the case hasn't come on because we've got these soaring backlogs. Of course, I'm really thinking about the victims of crime. 423 days, the average victim is waiting for a rape trial to come on and get justice. That's a long time to wait for that. Most often, women with witnesses falling away with the re-trauma of that experience.

23:35So that's why we've got to deal with it. And that's what I'm setting about doing as Justice Secretary. I do want to talk about those reforms, but if I may, I just want to dial into that time as a young boy. If you could talk a little bit about growing up in Tottenham. And I mean, the Deputy Prime Minister, was that on your horizon? Not even faker. Obviously, I have come so far from where I started. It's like a miracle. It's not even real. It feels completely unreal. deal um you know i grew up largely raised by a single mother um in tottenham and and tottenham in that era was one of the toughest places to grow up in relation to criminal justice it's a community that's seen two riots of the generation very few places uh in the united kingdom that would be in that situation um uh we didn't have a lot of money um after my dad left my mother was working two three jobs but there was still we still relied on benefits to supplement some of that income and i you know just even putting on a suit was was unreal never mind becoming a lawyer so so i i i can't tell you but you know i've always tried as a politician to stay grounded in in in where i started and to keep in mind the people i came into politics to help and assist um but i am acutely aware that i am i am so so far from that young boy you know part of my family was in the was in one of our tower blocks in the broadwater farm estate and I remember looking out the window of that estate in the 1970s and trying to think about what kind of future I might have and if someone had told me that I would be here today it it would have been a cartoon it would it was you know what have you been smoking would have been the reply I mean it was just you know it just so so unreal so bringing a courts bill um to the to the house of Commons as I am this week, yes, it's a very big moment in my life, given the troubled, tough period in this country in the 1970s in places like Tottenham and Brixton.

26:09In both of those last two answers, you mentioned social justice, but also in particular victims of crime and people from an ethnic minority background who are victims of crime. And I would just invite your remark upon the fact that I think certain sections of the media, but particularly the newspapers, particularly on Twitter, X now, a lot of the discourse around the reforms that you're pushing through has focused around the perpetrators of crime and the ethnic minority perpetrators of crime. The essential argument goes, you know, X person who isn't white is going to get off because of these reforms that Lamy's pushing through.

26:44And I just kind of would, I feel like I do anyway, and I'd invite you to talk about this, whether or not we've lost sight of the fact that there's a very significant ethnic minority portion of people in this country who are themselves victims of crime as well and i just don't know whether that's fully recognized in our national media discourse well let's let's break that down um black people in britain are 40 percent more likely to be a victim of crime uh mixed-raced people like my children 43 percent more likely to be a victim of crime the face of those sitting in Brixton, Pentonville today, in London, is very much a black and minority ethnic face waiting for their case to come on.

27:34And many of them will be innocent. So we can either sit back and do nothing about the backlog in our courts. We can just let it soar to 200 ,000, which is what it will be by 2035. And what that effectively means is that criminals begin to really get the sense they can get away with it. Because if the justice is delayed and delayed, delayed, then you can go on committing crime, committing crime, you're getting away with it in case it's collapsed. Or you can begin to grip it. I was very proud to lead the Lammy Review. and I was asked to do that by David Cameron, looking at disproportionality in our system.

28:14I was really concerned about the lack of transparency in our courts and I was concerned about we needed to make much more progress on who our judiciary were. Well, we are making progress. 21 % of those who become judges now are coming from a black or ethnic minority background today. Now, I want that figure to be higher, but that's considerably better than it was when I was doing the Lammy review. we've got almost half of our judges now are women. Well, again, it was nothing like that when I was doing the Lambie review. Is there more to do? Yes, there is more to do. But that's important. And by the way, whilst the jury system will always be the cornerstone of our system, a jury hasn't got to give its opinion.

28:57It hasn't got to tell you why it came to the verdict that it did. Whereas a judge has got to tell you why. And we should remember 90 % of our court cases in Britain are done by magistrates, sometimes a single judge in a magistrate's court. And what I'm introducing this week is a new bench division by a single judge for cases up to three years. So yes, if you've done shoplifting, possession of a class C drug, that will be dealt with by a single judge so that we preserve the jury trial for the rapes, the murders, the robberies, which I think the public fully understand and would want to see. It's quite an Orwellian framing, isn't it, David?

29:45This idea that by reducing the number of jury trials that take place, that we're going to actually protect the jury trial. I should be clear, we're talking about the changes that you're making. Yes, the poking, the prodding, the amendment, we're not scrapping jury trials, which you probably would be forgiven for thinking the way some people talk about it. But nevertheless, we're talking about a principle that's in Magna Carta, aren't we? And you're changing it. You're revisiting it. You must have a degree of sort of consideration for the history here. Oli, what's in the Magna Carta is the right to a fair trial.

30:16What's in the Magna Carta is justice delayed is justice denied. That's what's in the Magna Carta, the right to a fair trial. This is nothing about jury trials. We've had jury trials for a very long time and we've had the modern Crown Court system since 1971. So that's just the year before I was born. In that time, the Callaghan government made some changes in 1979 to thresholds. The Thatcher government made some changes in 1989 to thresholds, what should be in the magistrates' courts, what should be in the Crown Court. David Cameron took – some people might remember that defamation used to have a jury trial.

30:56David Cameron got rid of that. And what we are doing to preserve the system, because basically the pandemic and Tory austerity has got the system now almost broken, is to look again at those thresholds to keep the system working. That is progressive. By the way, it's also progressive because it's Labour governments that centre the victim. It's Labour government that gave you a victim's commissioner. It's a Labour government that gave you a victim's code. It's a Labour government that once more is saying we have to put victims as central. We have to put those who are victims of crime as central.

31:35It's intolerable for them to wait years and years for justice. That is progressive. That's why we're here. Not to defend the status quo, but to change the status quo. And even those who would say they were the most liberal. I remember being a young lawyer when a Labour government was questioning double jeopardy. And the very barristers today who are also being small-c conservative said, you can't change double jeopardy. We changed double jeopardy. And because we changed double jeopardy, there was partial justice for the Lawrence family for the murder of Stephen Lawrence. Just partial justice. But they got some justice.

32:16so um uh labor government also wanted to see solicitors um get advocacy rights and represent people in court again that was opposed um by some people who are opposing me today we are always on the side of yes money investment modernization but we also have to have reform as well if you're going to make the system work have you got the backbench support to get it through parliament i spent a lot of time obviously um speaking to colleagues um and engaging with colleagues i I spent a lot of time this weekend engaging with colleagues. So I am confident that we will get this bill passed at second reading and get this bill through the House.

32:54But of course, as you would expect, and many bill, colleagues will want to get into detail. The things that colleagues are raising with me is they wanted to make sure that these reforms are not just about money and we are putting money in. I was able to answer that. 2.78 billion we're putting into the system this year. Record investment. no one has got anywhere near that in the last generation. They wanted to ensure that we were also fixing some of the inefficiencies. You know, how do you get people from prison to court on time? Have you got, you know, the court back maintenance bill? You know, courts are falling apart.

33:28There aren't enough rooms. Again, that capital spend I've taken upwards, 244 million and upwards, to make sure that we are investing in our courts infrastructure and we're dealing with those inefficiencies that are in the system. But as I say, when I've done the modelling, put those figures towards Parliament so they can see those figures, it's clear we will not bring the backlog down if we just put money in and if we just deal with the inefficiencies and the modernisation. We have to reform as well if we want to see it coming down by the next election and coming down to a much more viable system by 2035.

34:07And that's why I'm doing all three things and not just one or two of them. We're going to take another short break. We'll be back after this.

34:39You need a vehicle that rises to meet it. The Range Rover Sport. Exclusive offers available now. Explore further at rangerover.com.

34:50I'm going to move us on, David, talk a little bit more about the Labour Party and broader national politics. Why did the Labour Party lose the Gorton and Dental by-election? Well, look, I mean, I think that, you know, it's clear, as I said, There is discontent in what would be described as heartland constituencies who now have been suffering and struggling for many, many years with a cost-of-living crisis. and i think we all recognize that we're living in an age where there are parties at the um on the on the on the on the on more towards the far right um and towards the far left um that are gnawing at that discontent um and um governments incumbent governments are really feeling the brunt of that particularly governments that are trying to govern from the centre ground.

35:49And you certainly see that in midterm elections. The last time we spoke, I wanted to emphasise that, look, in the end, we have to be judged at our record at the next general election, which is at least three years away. And as we've seen in Australia, as we've seen in Norway, as we've seen in Canada, governments that have been 14 % behind, 20 points behind, can come back to win when actually you put a proper offer to the British people or the electorate and they can see the account. But that doesn't make midterms easy. And of course, we have to ensure, particularly on the progressive side, that people are hearing the progressive account of what we are doing, that they're hearing about those breakfast clubs, that they're hearing about the emphasis that we placed on childcare, particularly for your age profile, I imagine where that actually becomes really important, that they're hearing about and beginning to feel, not just feel the change in terms of their experience of the National Health Service, that they're feeling the change in terms of antisocial behaviour, neighbourhood policing, that the bread and butter stuff that matters and, of course, affordability and cost of living at the centre of that really are accounts that they hear, that you're serious about your commitment to climate change and clean energy.

37:13All of that volume on those things is important in this really choppy, noisy, contested social media age that we're in. Do you think that perhaps then, the way you're talking about it there, it sounds like actually you're saying the government, the Labour Party, has not been loud enough about its actual progressive achievements, that perhaps it's trying to communicate to a different type of voter, perhaps be more worried about its rightward flank than its leftward flank. Your contention is that actually the Labour government is a progressive one. It just hasn't adequately communicated that to the electorate.

37:47Do I understand what you're saying? I'm very proud to be part of this progressive government. I think there's a degree of discontent in the public. So look, the truth is cost of living has gone so far south that even with the um reduction in energy bills for 150 quid it's still people still count where it was yeah you know six seven years ago um uh that's the point of reference you know so so look so this has always got to be you know you this is not easy stuff. But I think that the thing to bear in mind is during a general election in a country like ours, there are really important rules that keep the debate fair.

38:36Each party has got to have a fair crack of the whip in the public domain so that shows like yours have got to be fair on the way you cover the political parties. There are rules on how much we can spend. Basically, the rules of the game are really clearly defined. Out of a general election, you're in a competitive place. The media is less fair. The social media environment is like the Wild West. There are algorithms and bots that sometimes can be used by our external opponents to drive division. All of that means that the business of how you communicate, what you choose to talk about becomes incredibly contested.

39:21And have we been challenged as a government in the first 18 months in that domain? I think we have. Clearly we have. It's not been straightforward. It's not been easy. And sometimes voters have not heard us in the way that I would have liked. But look, I take my responsibility for that as much as anybody else. I am, in the end, the deputy prime minister. So I take responsibility for that. And we have to continue to do better. In your first answer there, you drew an equivalence between parties of the far right and the far left. And I'm assuming that was a reference to reform and also the Greens.

39:55Do you believe the Greens to be an extreme party? I think the position that we should sort of abandon NATO in the midst of the war in Ukraine can only be described as extreme. And I think the vast majority of people in the United Kingdom would think that. um um yeah i i there are green councils that have blocked council housing that is not progressive in my understanding of progressive um a kind of nibbyism that creeps in um that is absolutely not where my voters are in tottenham and their needs when we've got some of the highest overcrowding and people waiting for council houses uh possible so so uh yes i do see elements Of course, there are parts of the green agenda in relation to the environment that I would want to associate myself with.

40:54And the Labour Party is proud of its record in relation to the environment and our fight against climate. But I think there are areas in which they debat. But look, the electorate will make that assessment. It's up to us also to point those things out to the electorate so that they're clear on the distinction. I mean, you mentioned people in Tottenham. Electoral Calculus is actually forecasting the Greens to win your seat in Tottenham. They're 80 % on. I can 100 % tell you, knowing my seat as I do, that there is no prospect of the Greens taking my constituency. Absolutely none at all. I've represented Tottenham for 26 years.

41:37I've heard about Tottenham over that period, you know, voters going off to the far left. It's never, ever happened. and I, so, you know, people can make their predictions but as long as I've got anything to do about it, I think the people of Tottenham at the next election will make their assessment of how we've done as a government and a led party and I've got every confidence that I'll fight for every vote and win. What do you think their repeal might be though, Green Party? What do you think voters are interested in? You mentioned their green agenda stuff. Oh, well, I said that, look. Economics?

42:16I said that realistically, in by-elections, particularly in elections where the turnout isn't particularly high, it's not a national election, you will get people saying a plague on all their houses. And, you know, that's what you get. And you definitely get this sometimes plays to parties that are more about politics of grievance than they are about a positive agenda that's real. And as I've said, I don't think it's a positive agenda to abandon Ukraine and pull out a NATO. I don't think that's positive at all. I think that would be a calamity for the British people that actually drive up prices, make things a lot harder.

43:03uh you know because you'd go back to sort of cold war spending i suspect on defense if you did that so so so i it doesn't actually add up but that's in part because i don't think anyone but i don't even think zap bianzki believes this from an interview i saw him giving last week he doesn't think he's going to be forming a government in the next general election um so look i'm a i'm in the end a mainstream politician i'm in politics because i want the labor party to be in power to effect change for my constituents. And I look you in the eye and I say that, you know, acutely aware that the Labour Party in power in the 20th century was in power for about 22 years.

43:4422 years was all we got in the 20th century. We did deliver a lot in those 22 years, like the National Health Service, like the minimum wage, of course, comprehensive schooling, a whole raft of other things. But it wasn't sufficient. I want us to get a downside more in the 21st century. in the mainstream of British politics. My own view is the Greens are not in the mainstream of British politics. I've always been a mainstream politician in the end. But the Labour Party is a coalition of interests, by definition. The first-past-the-post system, it is a broad coalition of interests in our party, and we have to respect that too.

44:24My last question to you, and then I will let you get on your way. You've got plenty to be getting on with. One of your former advisors recently wrote in the New Statesman, actually wrote a piece of the New Statesman, and I interviewed him, Ben Judah. And we were speaking about, well, we spoke about a lot. We spoke about the special relationship in particular, which I think those remarks are relevant to what we've been talking about today. But he also called for a much closer alignment with the European Union. He actually suggested or said that we need to return to the customs union, possibly look at rejoining the single market.

44:54You previously have actually spoken about Turkey's position as a position in the customs union and how they have benefited from that relationship do you think the labour party the labour government needs to go further on european integration well i'm really proud um that both in opposition i said that we would reconnect with europe in government i was the first um foreign secretary to return to the uh foreign secretaries meeting of european ministers uh to set up the eu summit that we had to move us closer to europe and we're seeing that in real time. And I absolutely believe that alignment with our European partners and our national interests, of course, is the direction of travel.

45:34We head to the next summit and the one after that, that is the direction of travel. And I think it's been really important to see also our partnership, our central partnership, not just on defence, but on really important matters with Germany and France, but also Poland, Italy. This is hugely, hugely important. And recognizing, of course, that the bulk of our trade is with our European partners next door. And therefore we should join the Customers Union. We set out some red lines that are important at the last election. But within those guardrails, I think that we are in the business of negotiating the closest of relationships.

46:30And frankly, both the geopolitical environment and the economic headwinds push us in a certain direction, not just us, but also our European partners. David Lammy, thank you very much for taking the time to speak to me. I really appreciate it. Thank you. You've been listening to The Exchange from The New Statesman with me, Oli Dugmore, and my guest, David Lammy. This episode was produced by Catherine Hughes and Rob Lemaire. The podcast will be back next week.

47:15was engineered for those rare individuals who demand the world and possess the conviction to claim it. When your time to lead arrives, you need a vehicle that rises to meet it. The Range Rover Sport. Exclusive offers available now. Explore further at rangerover.com.