490: Why Trinny Woodall Still Replies to DMs

27:38You should come and check out our new podcast, From Zero to Founder, hosted by our community manager, Molly Flynn. These are in the trenches stories from our very own successful students that have gone through some of our programs. People just like you who are deep within the process of building their very own successful business. These are the founders of tomorrow. You can find the From Zero to Founder podcast on all platforms. And remember, it's founder without the E. All right, now let's jump in the show. Early stage startup founders, if they want to start a beauty brand, very, very, very competitive now.

28:18More than ever, you look at AI, it's so easy to create a business now. You look at Shopify and the tools available, much, much easier. So much easier. I came out of Shopify before they launched Shopify Plus. We went into commerce tours and I'm like, oh, it's challenging. You have to have multiple. Back then you couldn't even have multiple stores. You had to have multiple separate stores. And now that's all changed. So a lot has changed. So technically much easier. Correct. Getting the customer more challenging. Yeah. So what advice would you give to early stage startup founders that want to start a beauty brand?

28:57How do they stand out? I'm going to say one thing first is I think some of the reasons people fail and don't get it off the ground is they spend too long on the product development of what it is and too little on how are they going to sell it. you know and barbara who we both love um shark tank we so love barbara you interviewed her didn't you she's so mad yeah she was like do you remember thing 87 is good enough so challenging for an entrepreneur where 100 has got to be the norm but i never forget her saying that she said that to one of the pictures i was like that's so true and i was lying in bed next to my partner and i was just thinking when i was being trying to be too perfectionist and i just thought It's got to be.

29:44I mean, at the very beginning, you want to be 100%, 100%. But so that's the first thing I'd say is whatever you're, you know, you've got to feel. You've got to ship. Yeah, you've got to feel it might be a great product and you might feel you have got a point of difference in the market. But go out and see where are people buying whatever it is you're selling and how are they selling it? So is your physical product different? Have you invented some incredible new raw ingredient? or is the packaging and branding phenomenal? Because in the world we live in today, packaging and branding can definitely get a product off the ground, but they will not ever make it a legacy brand.

30:25And it's like you don't want to build to have something in five years, just die. You know, I think we all want to build to have something which is there and becomes establishment. It always may be a bit rock and roll, but you know, you don't want to do those tons. So it has to have substance. So for me as a beauty brand entrepreneur, you know, we went to for skincare, we have our in lab. So for me, being in control of what my product is and developing it so that it feels incredibly unique so that we can talk about it with authenticity to show its point of difference in the market. And it gives you the passion in which to talk about your products.

30:59I think that's really important in terms of that making it and cutting through the noise is about understanding what's out there now. or if you're filling the hole, then where is it going to resonate the most with those people? I mentor a few people in the UK and there's a girl who has a jewellery brand started when she was 18. She's now 21. Maybe she's 22. And she did this thing where she started off on a minute level with girls who went to schools where there was like a sixth form who was influential. And she sent them product. So she didn't go to influencers. She went on a real, I mean, we talk about micro-influencers, we've talked about them for 10 years.

31:48But I found this whole strategy where she was getting literally into a school of 500 kids. She knew that that 13 to 16-year-old looked up at the 17 and 18-year-old and that she would get them to do stuff. And she created these micro-influencers in incredibly targeted. Those are the places. So she has started with like 25 schools and she's building up a really good business and she's turning over a couple of million, you know, I'm not going to say the details, but, you know, that's how focused she became is like, I'm making this jewelry, who's going to love it and who's going to want it even more?

32:25You know, because who's going to love it is the people who would tell the people who's going to want it even more by how they tell them and talk to them and communicate in their language. Yeah, it's much easier to compete if you get your target market so dialed, like that niche so dialed in. And really like putting them on the wall. You know, get your, whoever your target is. I like to take things sometimes out of online and put on the wall, who is that person? You know, this is really old-fashioned marketing, but like what do they look at on social? You know, where are they buying from right now?

33:00Who are they hanging out with? Who are their influences? All these things are just know that customer. Do you think you need to raise money to start? I don't know. It's really tough because raising money, you can get your throat slit right now. It's a ruthless market and fundraising is really challenging. And there's a lot of people sitting on money right now, not investing because they're thinking that sounds like something I invested in a few years ago. So it is challenging to raise money. And I would say bootstrapping, if you can, for proof of concept, will mean that when you go to that fundraise, you will not be shredded in terms of the cap table, because otherwise you will.

33:47If you raise too early and people are saying, I'm taking a big punt on you, they're going to be really greedy in the cap table. And then you're going to find you're a couple of years in and And you might even already be close to being minority. And you need at least if you're a, I feel if you're a founder, you have a sense of what your product is and your market is, if it's, you know, a D to C brand. And you need to protect your sense of it because you come up with the idea and there might be people along the way. There's definitely going to be people along the way as you grow who will know more than you in different areas.

34:21But if you get people in too early, they might direct you to a way that is where they feel the market's going. And maybe you have a real intuition where you feel you have the vision to see something else. And it's very difficult sometimes to define what do we trust in our vision versus where are they telling me something I need to hear? And that's going out to see investors. even if you're not fundraising it takes a lot of time out of growing your business but it's interesting to understand the market it's interesting to see what's launching it does give you information but it takes a lot of time out and if there's other ways that you can do it just for the first sort of six months or a year i think people are looking you know people when I raised, people did pre-revenue.

35:15But doing pre-revenue now is very challenging in this market. Are you hesitating to take the next step in your e-commerce journey? Founder Plus has you covered. With proven frameworks tailored to your business needs for fast results, a supportive community of over 30 ,000 like-minded entrepreneurs, and weekly live mentorship sessions, Founder Plus is your key to success. Try Founder Plus today for just$1 for seven days and start building your dream business with confidence. You can visit founder.com forward slash start dollar trial or click the link in the description to claim your trial. So do you believe it's possible to build a successful beauty brand not raising any money even starting really small?

35:56You said you started with like 40 SKUs, maybe just starting with one SKU, like a very simple like... For sure. You have got brands who have, I'm just like trying to think, like there's a brand called Gizu, which is like a hair brand. And she was an influencer and she started, but I don't know if investors went to her and then they financed it. You have some people who might literally start with one product. It is challenging. And it depends how much time you feel you have to have the patience to grow it. Years ago, I went to see, not years ago, two years ago, I went to see Leonard Lauder, whose mother's Estée Lauder, big purchaser of beauty brands.

36:45But in our conversation, he said to me, Trini, biggest thing I can tell you, patience. Which is interesting, because sometimes, you know, we think, and I'm going to say this, like, but I think myself, We're the young ones. We know what we're doing. I'm saying it's like I'm nearly 60 and he's like 80. But it's important sometimes to look at those people who have founded billion dollar businesses. Very different times, but fundamentally you're selling a product to a consumer. So even if the method by which you're selling it has changed for the era you live in, some of those fundamentals are actually identical and they never change.

37:22and so when he said that to me i always noticed that when i strategically made make impulsive rather than intuitive decisions is when i don't have my patience it's just an interesting one so going back to your question nathan of should you fundraise or should you be you know it's requires patience it's very challenging financially because you've then got to be in a position where you think, do I rent or do I live with my parents? If we're talking to people who are in that situation, then can I do it out of my parents' garage for a bit? Can I make that my office? How can I fund my product? Because when you're funding product, if you're going to self-fund, the cost per SKU is going to be more expensive than if you can order more and grow the business.

38:10So there is that point before you get to that inflection point where you're actually going to have a better gross margin where it's more expensive for you to do it. But it means that you can get to a stage where you could have a positive impact, where you're not having to wait for your next revenue to buy your next stock. And then when you go to an investor, you'll be in a far stronger position. But I think there is no right or wrong way. It's really how you are emotionally as a person and what motivates you as to which route and also the markets. And how big you want to go. Well, all right. So if you're listening, I don't know if there's anyone listening who would say, I just want to grow a really small business.

38:58Have you ever had somebody sitting opposite you, Nathan, who said, I actually just want to grow a small business? Never. Okay. So the world is your oyster. You know, I sat down with a woman who founded Nataporta, Natalie Masne, and she said to me, She gave me some lovely bits of advice. So she said, Trini, from day one, you're a global brand. Never forget it. Yeah. Yeah. You make an interesting point around kind of how big do you want to go and this kind of is it ever enough? Well, are they two separate things? Because is it ever enough is a state of mind. And I don't know many entrepreneurs who go, it's enough.

39:40No, never. Okay. So I think that's like, that's the, that's the burden you carry as an entrepreneur. It's kind of never enough. And that's what propels you forward all the time. And it's just, there are people who like that. And there are people who like, they get to stage where this is enough. And I look at people sometimes like that. And I think it would be lovely to have your life because it would be a life of far less worry. You wouldn't be so kind of challenged every single day. You wouldn't be kind of pounding the streets, You know, like I was coming to you today and I had my team with me staying at this hotel.

40:10And I was like, I had so many things on my mind. I had to walk fast and get away from everyone, you know. So I was literally crossing the streets and they were all like behind me going, she's just where the fuck is she gone? But it was just because there are a lot of thoughts inside my head right now. And, you know, the challenge for me is I'm running a business. There's over 200 people in it and I'm here promoting the business as well. And that's my most challenged time is wearing those two hats and feeling far away from a lot of decisions I'm making right now around the business when I also need to be here focused 100 % on this.

40:46Yeah. That's my biggest challenge. Yeah, because, yeah, the personal brand, you're doing it so well and it's really driving the growth or partly driving the growth. But then operationally, you're the CEO. But I have a great COO. I've just hired a really good CFO, CRO. I combined that role and I found that. I combined that role because it's like cash in, cash out. You know, it's interesting. That's an interesting profile. You like to meet that person. Yeah, I know. Because generally, you know, I mean, I interviewed lots of CFOs and I met this one and I thought, actually, this is interesting. Okay.

41:28Yeah. There you go. Yeah. So you've got a strong leadership team. Strong leadership team, good C-suite team, great leaders in each department. I think building up a team and looking at where the focus is each year. So right now what I'm doing is I'm looking at where is our focus now? You know, so do we have, who are the people in the business we need for where we want to go now? You know, so I am looking now. We need to look more at what would wholesale look like if we get to wholesale? What does retail look like when we're doing, you know, those are roles now that probably three years ago, two years ago, COO can do that role, you know, and just lead that because it's such a small proportion of our business.

42:13It's 10 % of our business. But as we grow into retail, we need to look at what that is. And I think the challenge for D2C brands now is whatever market that you're targeting, people need to, in order to trust you as a brand and believe what you are, they need to see the physical manifestation of the D2C brand. And if they don't see it, it's kind of like it's here today, gone tomorrow. And there are a lot of D2C brands that are here today, gone tomorrow. So having the pop, you know, like the way we've done in Australia is we have these kiosks and we call them pop-ups. They're actually permanent stands.

42:49And we try and do them in front of a Sephora or we're opening an emporium here in Melbourne, our second one in November. And we need people to see that so that, you know, even though when we localized here and we just, you know, it was fantastic for online as soon as we localized, they would then see, you know, I've got, you know, I was looking today at the area and I went into Emporium before I came here. So people sent me videos and I was like, where are we going to be? It's really interesting about, this is, this is the interesting thing about when you do your physical location, where you're going to be.

43:29So mostly you'd sort of say, got to be where all the premium brands are. We've got to where Aesop is, we've got to be where Camilla and Mark is, Zimmerman, all that. And I looked at that spot today and I thought, great, you know, but outside of those areas, pop-ups aren't necessarily allowed. Then you look at traffic and you look at route in which they're going to get to the stores, in which they might do other parts of their life, that kind of customer. And they have to come off Lonsdale Street and they go up and they hit Nike and then they go right and then they take the escalator to go to Zimmerman and Camilla and Mark and they'll pass us.

43:58So we want to plonk ourselves right in front of them and Mecca's just there. So it's about, you know, whatever your brand might be, if you're going to do a pop-up, what does that look like? How are you going to make that noise, which then you put on your social channels, which people then see and think, look how physical they are. Because everyone ultimately, and there are some stats which show that Gen Z shot more in store than millennials. Because they, you know, they spent a lot of time during COVID stuck and they want to be in stores. They want to be out. They want to be sociable. So the concept that you're going to buy everything online, yes, but they want to go in store.

44:37So what are you doing about it if you're starting a business for a Gen Z? How are you going to be in that location where you're going to attract those people? TikTok. TikTok is the rage. TikTok is the rage. Yeah. TikTok, it's interesting. Talk to us about your experiences there. Okay. So I feel we have a long way to go with TikTok. I feel that there's certain, you know, if we look at our target demographic, I think they're on TikTok with their daughters. I think that when I, you know, my daughter will always show me stuff on TikTok and then I'll look at TikTok and it kind of takes you down the rabbit hole.

45:17I think the algorithm is so fundamentally different. So when you're doing organic growth on TikTok, it's, you've got to kind of reset everything if you've been Instagram or Facebook. And for us as a brand, it's also how do we spread ourselves to do all those channels? Because we have a lot of, you know, we are really deep into meta in both Facebook and Instagram. So do we spread ourselves too thin? Do we have enough people to create that? Otherwise then I could do more on my TikTok and just, you know, grow that sort of quirkiness on TikTok. So when we were posting and at the moment we just post and repurposing isn't working.

45:57Repurposing is not the way to do TikTok. It's got to be so. Oh yeah, it's got, yeah, you can't do what you put on Instagram. So there's been a bit of repurposing. All right. And I just think that's not working. So the one successful viral that I had on TikTok, which is like, when I get back, this is my kind of thing of how am I going to influence that we grow TikTok? Because I do believe there's people there and I do believe there's an audience there. And I do see a lot of different age groups now on TikTok. There was this viral thing about Zara with its sizing and I kept seeing it on TikTok. And whenever my daughter, I said, it's such crap.

46:35They were saying, it's a triangle for this. It's a circle means it comes up small and it's a square means it comes up big or something. And I said, that's such crap. So I just went into Zara and I sort of went, just so you know, whatever this viral thing's going around is crap. Because the truth is, this means Zara home. This means Zara woman. And this means TRF. It's just the different brands within Zara. It's nothing to do with sizing. And I got like two and a half million views on it. Because Lila said, I said, Lila, she's 19, my daughter, tell me how I put it up. So it will, she said, okay, the first 10 seconds, We're not going to use your voice, but it's going to turn into your voice.

47:13And we're going to do this typeface and a two and a half million hits or whatever it was. So I sort of feel on one hand, should I just get my daughter to be in charge of TikTok and she can do a side hustle? She needs a side hustle anyway. I'm feeling she's becoming a bit entitled at university. And I was speaking to the team and they were saying we did jobs at the weekend at uni. And Lila's like, but I'm in Spain. I couldn't speak the language to do the job. and I'm like, okay, well, let's think of another one. But it's definitely there. We definitely need to work on it. It's not a primary conversion for us, but it's a market that you need to be in.

47:50Because also as a brand, when you have an audience that's not a Gen Z audience, well, actually any brand that has a target audience, how do you get those people who are going to become that age? So you as a brand are here and you launch with those people where it resonates. But how do you make sure those people who are currently 30, that when they become 35, 40, we will be the brand that resonates with them? Because otherwise you grow old with your customer and then you fall off a cliff. And some beauty brands are a little bit too legacy slash dinosauric. And, you know, some of the big conglomerates have got that kind of, you feel it's a brand for your grandma, nearly.

48:32So we are a brand definitely for a grown up woman, but how do we always be the brand for that woman when she reaches that stage in her life that we are relevant to her, which means that although the DNA and fundamentals are there, life changes. You know, we're in different decades. There's new technologies. There's new things happening, which leads us to AI. Okay. And VR. I'm just, I'm just giving you the, I'm giving you the doctor. Let's do it. Yeah. All right. So when I was looking at the algorithm we built, Match2Me, it was based upon how do you make it easier for an audience who's not used to buying makeup for the first time online, maybe replenishing, to actually have the confidence to buy online.

49:14So it was about, we did 3 ,600 women that we analyzed to look at what their skin, hair and eye combinations would be, and then we matched makeup to them. So we built that and 75 % of our customers use that as a tool. And the AOV on those people is about 20 % more than the AOV on somebody who doesn't do much to me. So it works. We know personalization works. So I'm going to kind of strip out personalization, sort of VR, AI. And so we have that. That's our kind of personalization. Yes. Then during COVID, a lot of brands who were retail focused knew that they had to do things to get customers online.

49:54So they did virtual trial. All right. So virtual trial. And we had Perfect Core out of Korea, quite a few of these brands. It was bought by L 'Oreal. And so L 'Oreal did it themselves. Yes. And they developed medium technology that you could try it on. Some worked well. Some didn't know how to use the technology because, you know, coming out of COVID, I look on their websites and I think they've really hidden it because to them, they're not D to C first. So it's like it was relevant when all the stores were closed. Yes. But now the stores are open. It's not so relevant. For us, it's always been relevant because also then I know so much about our customer.

50:29The more personalized we are, the more I understand about our customer and therefore I can deliver more relevant products to her. So when we launch our skincare, so we had three bits of information on our customer. So we launched skincare and that now goes to 30 bits of information on our customer. So we know now the age, we know skin, hair, and eye, we know sensitivity, we know dark spots, we know that emotional things. You know, when you're doing all of these new technologies, the hardest, most challenging thing is how do you get information out of them, which gives you emotional intelligence?

51:07Because going back to what we said at the very beginning emotional intelligence is what sells around so we look at where we go next and there's definitely you can look at our journey of when people do the personalization and where there's a drop-off yes so we've changed a few things to kind of lower the drop-off in some areas but virtual try-on interesting but to me it's like gamification because i'm not a brand which believes in filters. And a lot of virtual try-on literally puts a filter on your face first and then puts on the makeup. And I'm like, this is so against everything we stand for.

51:44It's like, be the best version of yourself, but don't put a filter onto face life. So don't think so. But then there's analysis. So for us, subjective opinion on who you think you are versus who you really are is very important to us. And a lot of people might say, it's like when they go to the hairdresser and they say, my hair's too red. and the hairdresser looks at it and thinks it's a bit green. All right, it's subjective. So when they answer our skincare questionnaire, they're still saying subjectively what they feel. So the next bit that I will fold into my side is being able to identify skin in great detail because skin identification was very rusty.

52:26Like it couldn't identify because it wasn't good enough yet and it changes every three months. The difference between a spot and an age spot, So cystic acne or an H spot, couldn't tell the difference. But now it can, literally in the last four months, five months. Wow. So we are now at a stage of phase three of what a personalization journey means, which is we can take over for you where you're not sure of what answer to give, which might delay you completing it. Oh. We will actually help you. So we're going to implement a few things. Yeah. So that's our kind of next stage. Yes. And then there's a further stage, which I can't write yet, but it is you want things that are relevant for your audience to understand that they know will help them to get to a solution.

53:16But just to do it for a game or just to do it to keep up with the crowd isn't the reason to do it. Yeah, no, look, we have to work towards wrapping up or almost at time. but that's really interesting how you guys are using that personalization. That's like almost a form of, like it's kind of a competitive advantage, right, to be able to do that against other brands. It's really smart. So last question, Trini, before we wrap. Any final words of wisdom that you would love to share with our community of early stage startup founders, particularly e-commerce founders just about to launch something, recently launched something, or they're just post-revenue?

54:00I think there's days when you're going to just think, will it ever work? So I'm just going to address those kind of days because I think that's the most challenging thing because you can feel quite alone as a founder. You can feel, you know, if you're not doing it with a partner, it can be a solitary existence at the beginning. And if you know you're giving it your all, then it's to remember you never know what's behind the closed door because Because we can kind of, you know, take the narrative and make it really that there is no solution to what you might be looking for. And it's just to be open to there could be something, you know.

54:35So for me, I need to remember that. I have to ask one more. Have you ever thought of or felt like giving up during this journey? I'm wondering when I was raising money If you know when I had the kind of Hundreds email of no interest Whether I thought But I don't think I ever did There you go Awesome well look thank you so much For your time it's great to see you again This was a fantastic interview and Yeah I'm excited to see how far you Take this thing Nice to see you again Hey guys I hope you enjoyed this interview As you might already know our mission at Founder is to help tens of millions of people every single week with our content, either start or grow their business, which is exactly why we're partnering with world-class founders such as Damon John, Alexa Von Tobel, Greta Van Riel, and so many more to teach crucial skills such as negotiation, finance, e-commerce, and so much more.

55:38So if you'd like to get access to these free exclusive trainings, please go to founder.com forward slash free. These are 100%. We go super in depth on teaching a particular topic and I know that you're going to love them if you enjoy this podcast. So just go to founder.com forward slash free. All right, guys, I'll see you in the next episode.