547: In Retrospect - Building a $200M Selling Swimwear | Erin Deering

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0:39Just head to omnisend.com forward slash founder without the E to get started. All right, now let's jump back into the show. Hey, founder fam, today I'm diving back into the archives to bring you our episode with Erin Deering. She's the co-founder of the global swimwear sensation Triangle. From a spontaneous idea on a Melbourne beach to building a$200 million brand worn by the likes of Kendall Jenner and Hailey Bieber, Erin's journey is a true testament to the power of innovative thinking and relentless determination. In this episode, Erin takes us through how she identified a gap in the market, launched her brand using the influence effect before it became mainstream and really scaled Triangle to become a cult favorite with customers in over 100 different countries around the world.

1:32But behind the meteoric rise, Erin faced personal challenges. Struggling with identity, burnout, and the pressure of success, she really shares her lessons on all that she learned from walking away from it all in 2018 to find a deeper sense of fulfillment and purpose. All right, Let's dive in. Hear the stories, learn the proven methods and accelerate your growth and future through entrepreneurship. Welcome to the Founder Podcast with Nathan Chan. So Erin, the first question that I ask everyone that comes on is, how did you get your job, aka how did you find yourself doing the work you're doing today?

2:14um well triangle launched back in the idea launched back in 2011 in melbourne on a beach and my partner at the time co-founder craig we had our second date and i couldn't find a bikini well actually no i went to find a bikini because second date at the beach is kind of you know a little bit nerve-wracking i wanted something nice and i went shopping and i couldn't find anything that sat between a surf brand and a higher like Zimmerman, Sea Folly kind of price point. So we got to the beach. I ended up finding something. I think I bought a Zimmerman bikini and we ended up chatting about it and pretty much then and there went, there's a gap in the market.

2:56This could be really fun. Why don't we keep talking about it? And Triangle was pretty much born that day. Yeah, wow. Yeah. So what happened next? Well, Craig had had previous experience in having a business, so that was super fortunate. I hadn't had to have, you know, I think everyone, I was 27, so I had pretty lofty ambitions and like, I'm going to do this and do that, but no idea how to do it. And so we kind of started thinking about how we were going to start it and the name and the logo and the designs and all of those things. And then pretty early on, like probably a few months after that, we realised that we needed to, we didn't need to, but we thought we'd move to Hong Kong to be close to the supply chain.

3:41We also just knew that we really wanted to have a crack and we wanted to do it properly. And if we stayed in Melbourne with our identities here and our friends and our distractions, we wouldn't really commit. So we packed up everything, sold our small number of possessions and moved to Hong Kong. Yeah, wow. Yeah. And you guys only on your second date. Yes. Yeah, so it was all very quick. So we kind of, you know, fell in love and had our personal relationship going at the same time as Triangles, you know, the business. Yes. So they were always very intertwined and, like, you know, pretty much just the same.

4:18So, yeah. Yeah, wow. And during that time period, like, did you leave your job? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Craig and so he was working, he'd had a business of fashion, but he was previously an AFL footballer and then so he's had many careers and then had a fashion label, which was quite popular in Melbourne called St. Lenny. And then that, he went bankrupt with that, which, you know, was jarring. Well, it wasn't really jarring for me. It was more jarring for the people around me, probably my parents, but it was actually amazing. And it was really integral to the success of Triangle because he'd learned so much through that process and he you know he made decisions that were bad and so it really kind of helped us but his bankruptcy ended in April 2012 yes and so then he was able to kind of do things and that was kind of why we packed up and left he just quit his job he'd had some design job at a company here I was working in e-commerce at a company and I was loving it but it was you could see that trajectory when you're in you know and you would know when you're in another business and you're in kind of not corporate but you're in someone else's business you can't really accelerate to any level that you really want to so you know it was pretty easy just to pack up and get my notice and get out of here yeah i see so what happened next so you guys moved to hong kong yeah how'd you come up with the brand the logo the name like really solid yeah so craig is you know all credit to him he's a true true creative um and just loves to come up with logos and names and visuals and really you know like he did another 10 ideas during the triangle days for other things like he loves it so that kind of was really down to him um and we came up with that pretty early on and when we got to hong kong that was really all about getting the samples and finding the money to start to manufacture something to get it out there and we're building our website we knew actually we didn't know at the start we wanted to be direct to consumer we did try wholesale a little bit yes but we also knew that that model was pretty clunky quite hard to manage i'm my passion really lies in customer the customer experience and having that direct connection and i knew i'd lose that in wholesale so we're really protective of that pretty early on and made the decision to just do it online yes um and yeah and so that's kind of in the first year which was 2012 from june onwards yes that was what we were doing was just hustling to get some product out into the market yep and uh how long how long did it take for you to go from idea conception to first customer to launch yeah look so idea conception was 2011 in october november and then we sold our first bikini online in january 2013 yeah so it would have been what it It was a while.

7:11It didn't feel like that. I think that was that first half of 2012 when we were in Melbourne, that was just getting ready to move. And so that was exciting and there was so much potential. And then when that second half of 2012 was incredibly stressful because we'd given everything up. We were in Hong Kong, we were flat broke. We didn't even have money to go back home and we knew we couldn't go back home. We had to try everything to get this brand to launch. and so that was six months of real hustle and we had to borrow some money off a few friends to really get you know to pay our rent and to pay to get some product out there.

7:47And what was MOQ? It was really we were so fortunate it was really really low it was like 400 pieces which now doesn't happen at all and that's a real hurdle for people I think especially trying to launch a business that's selling a product is moqs are so bloody high and if they're if they're lower the cost goes through the roof so we were really really lucky we'd found an amazing manufacturer in china we went to trade shows in the start and just sampled with a few found a really good one they ended up completely screwing us but that's another story oh let's hear that yeah tell us about that what happened well they they copied us and they started making our products on the side and selling them in China and tried to register our name in China so we learned about IP and trademarks in a really painful way because we didn't do it at the start because it cost money we didn't have money and we also didn't know that it would become what it would become so when they when we found out they were copying us which was about 2014 and it wasn't just them everyone then came and copied us like every brand in the world that was doing swimwear did a triangle version um and yeah but they were the they were the worst they were trying to claim our brand and they did a mimic website and yeah it was pretty tough it was pretty stressful but we learned a lot through it and we really just kind of probably got um you know name trademarked in every other place we could um and I can't even recall if we did in China in the end um but they did eventually go away and that was just through us just I guess at the end of the day just ignoring them and focusing on innovating and making better product and and moving to another manufacturer as well yeah but that was stressful we lost all our product um because we left them and they wouldn't give us any of our swimwear so we had a good month or so where we didn't have any bikinis to sell and we were still selling them online because we didn't really know if we'd get it back or not and it was yeah there was some real pain points there yeah yeah it's actually a good one because was this is common right like you have a hot product yeah it's being manufactured in china you do the alibaba thing yeah literally this my my fiance's bottle yeah healthish this was the first time mark water bottle like really made and now everyone's copied it oh gosh like it's everywhere right that's what people just do and so what how did you work through that what were the lessons because it's so easy for this to happen yeah well the china one was you know that was because they weren't pushing into our market it didn't feel as stressful it was awful but we were able to sort of you know i guess like separate that from our what we were selling in australia in the u.s when brands like the tourist secret copied us and they were very very aggressive and doing every single bikini that we did and just copying us you know straight up um and we you know tried to take them on legally which you know you start the process and realize you're about to go down an incredibly expensive path so we did all those initial aggressive you know like this isn't fair and we're going to go after them and how dare they and then you kind of it's distressed you know you're up every night till 2am walking finding copies and people are sending them to you and and you know and that was obviously just it was going to happen and but when you're in it it's so tough to kind of step away from it but you really have to you have to go you know what this won't stop I can you know bang my fist make as much noise as possible send a cease and desist letters do whatever but at the end of the day they'll keep doing it what we have to have faith in what we have to do as a brand is innovate step keep pushing forward know that we created that they don't have the talent to keep creating because they're copying so let's keep creating And we're really fortunate to be able to keep doing that.

11:40And, you know, I guess like deviate and move away from, you know, what we were doing. And still know that, you know, and also still know that what you're making, people will still buy that. Even if there are copies, they still will want the original as long as you're still making other product and not getting too stuck. Because it's such an investment of your time and energy to throw at people copying you. And it's taking away from your innovation and your creation of anything new. And we just saw that happening. We saw that we were spending our days doing that as opposed to creating anything new.

12:12So we just went, well, we've just got to create new things, you know, put the blinkers on and just keep pushing forward. And they all went away. Yeah, wow. Interesting. So you end up finding a better supplier. Yes. Yeah. And then what happened next? So those 400 pieces, how did you get that first sale? Was it through Instagram? Was that the first play or was it friends and family? It was friends and family. We did launch our website, but obviously our social media was tiny and we weren't really getting much traction as you weren't back then. So it was a lot of word of mouth. It was a lot of our friends and then our friends of friends and then putting it up on social media.

12:53And just, you know, we always had this tagline that we wanted to sell one bikini a day. Yes. because that would match our salaries that we were making back in Melbourne. Yes. So without having that crazy expectation, everything felt quite attainable and achievable. Yes. And so we did just sort of start, you know, I think people really undervalue word of mouth because it's not like a measurable, you know, like, you know, you can't say, oh, here, look, here's the return on investment on word of mouth. But it's so valuable and it really was huge for us. And in Australia, especially in Melbourne, you know, people were going, oh, this is brand.

13:31And then they saw on Instagram and, you know, we were putting up lovely pictures of girls in bikinis. And that took a little while, actually. But we did shoot one or two girls and put the bikinis on them and then put those photos up. And it was all done through Instagram pretty quickly. Are you hesitating to take the next step in your e-commerce journey? Founder Plus has you covered. With proven frameworks tailored to your business needs for fast results, a supportive community of over 30 ,000 like-minded entrepreneurs, and weekly live mentorship sessions, Founder Plus is your key to success. Try Founder Plus today for just$1 for seven days and start building your dream business with confidence.

14:08You can visit founder.com forward slash start dollar trial or click the link in the description to claim your trial. Yeah. So where and when did you get that step change in growth? because from my research, you guys are doing almost 200 grand a day in profits. Yeah, yeah. It's like insane. Like did the company get to north of 100 million revenue a year? Can you talk about that? Yeah, it got to not 100 million. It was about our biggest year would have been 60 million US because our peak was only because it's a seasonal product. Our peak was at different times. So there were a few months and it still is that way, august september october really lean um because globally no one's really buying swimwear then yes um but yeah so we like our biggest kind of step growth would have been probably the social media impact of the kardashians or more so kendall jenner um we had a few before then of like bigger bloggers posting and they were bloggers back then because that was before they changed the name to influencer yep well now it's creator yeah sorry true true creator yeah creator um yeah so we had a few of them and that would always you know get us a couple of you know not a couple but like new followers new new you know customers but we're really really catapulted when we had kendall jenner post about our bikinis and then that really launched us into the states by then we were already pretty solid in australia we had a pretty good customer base we had a great mailing list but the States was really because of that power factor of Kendall really.

15:48And when was that and tell us how that came about. Yeah, that was I believe it was 2014. I could have my year on. So it only took a couple of years to – Yeah, it was really quick. Like once we got over that first sort of 2013, you know, obviously there were a few pain points but nothing slowed down. The growth would slow down but it was still always growing and then when Kendall posted, that was when everything went mad and we had a bit of a strategy around that. We knew we couldn't reach because we were reaching out to girls. So taking a step back as well, what we did, which no one was doing back then, which most brands kind of do now, is that we were gifting without any expectation of a post in return.

16:31It was true and we were very clear on that. We would say we're sending you this, please don't, unless you, you know, don't we don't need you to post it we just want you to have it we think you'll love it nine out of ten even you know 9.5 out of 10 would post yeah because they still and we were really genuine because we didn't want girls posting it and and not really looking good or feeling good and then posting a photo because that would then you know it wouldn't be obvious so that was sort of really big for us and I think it got us quite a lot of traction in that that you know blogger world or that social media world because it was genuine and it wasn't saying that you know we'll send you this but send like post about it like you must post it was never that and we never wanted to pay you know I still don't I don't believe they're doing that now we never really paid anyone um and yeah and so that that was happening and then so we were reaching out to girls but we knew we couldn't reach out to Kendall because she was you know the big fish and she just wouldn't reply so we reached out to all of her friends and they were girls that didn't really have followings you know they might have had like 2000 or something but nothing big two of them are actually bella hadid and hayley baldwin now beaver um but they were just you know hayley was just a you know cute californian girl like really sweet young i think she was like 16 you know like super super young um really lovely you know she was a baldwin but that was her thing she wasn't her own and bella was the same really was just one they were just kendall's friends wow and they didn't You have a big following.

18:02No, nah, nah. So we gifted them and then hoping that Kendall would come and chase us down and she did. She emailed me, got my email from one of the girls who we, you know, gifted and said, all my friends have these bikinis. Can I get some too? They're amazing. So we sent her everything and then that was really it and that kind of started that movement over there because all those girls were wearing them and they became more and more influential and it just kind of grew from there and then we got on the other Kardashians and Kim and Kourtney and Kris Jenner. Yeah. Yeah. She was wearing them. And you – all gifting.

18:37All gifting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All gifting. Yeah. Because you would think that for the Kardashians you have to pay, like, you know, like High Smile or like they're paying. Yeah. Yeah, no, we didn't. It was pretty early on. Yeah. So, you know, we knew that if we wanted to, say, guarantee a post or guarantee some kind of coverage that we would pay. Yeah. But we just – we knew they liked the brand and that they wanted it. you know and they would like they'd get everything i remember kim requested the this selection this was early kanye days when she changed her look yeah and all the bikinis she selected were like black white gray and were like on the kanye effect like just getting all the water like all the monochrome kind of vibe yeah um but yeah they all really wanted it and they wore it and they never tagged us but the daily mail picked it up and other publications picked it up and they would talk about us and so it was happening anyway we didn't need them to tag us in the end because then we would use the photo on our page tag them and people would be like yeah let's you know try it wow so it was really just fortunate and and an authentic approach to doing it as well so as the business really grew super fast where did you build team was it in hong kong did you just come back here set up base or how did what did that look like in hong kong set up a supply chain office there but only uh in like 2000 second half of 2014 is when we really we're still working out of our apartment yes before that we kept it really really lean really tight really flexible because when you you know we just didn't want to like i guess you know go too far ahead on anything just in case so and we still in our in our minds you know Craig and I never expected it to be what it was so we were still small business minded really and you know we we still were even when we were doing those big numbers and we'd be meeting with people like what's your team like and we're like um it's kind of us and like four other part-time people like it was really really small so we did have the supply chain because we needed that by then you know we couldn't manage that sort of you know production process and you know in the critical path without help but that was still about would have been five or six people in Hong Kong and that was it and then just Craig and I and no one else there was no marketing no social media it was still wow predominantly me with a team of girls that were doing the customer care because that was a huge you know part of the business was that personal touch that you know we launched live chat on our website before any other fashion business that would have ever done it because we knew that when you're buying something as intimate as swimwear, you want to feel like you can ask someone about sizing straight away.

21:24So that was really important. So we had a team, we had quite a few girls doing that in the Philippines. And they were just working from home and doing it there. And that was it. Yeah. Wow. But over time it grew? It's still pretty small. I mean, I've left, but it's still a small team. There's girls in Sydney now. There's a store in Sydney and there's There's a team of about, I think there's probably like four girls in Sydney. Oh, wow. But still really small. And then Craig's in Monaco and there's still, I think, a small team in Hong Kong. But for the size of the business, the team is tiny. Yeah, wow.

21:57And because the model hasn't really changed and, you know, I'm sure it could have, it would have taken a different path, maybe bigger, maybe better, maybe not. Yes. But keeping it lean and keeping it, you know, about what we were doing was just really easy to manage. So we were just, we just kept it that way. it was kind of like it's not broken so yeah don't try to fix it yeah that's awesome yeah wow that's really interesting because i would have thought yeah as a as it grew and to even hit you know 60 million u.s not far off 100 million australian like 50 100 to like 150 people like to run the operations the marketing power all of that that's crazy yeah we would because we entertained the idea of selling in 2015 because we had private equity just coming for us like you wouldn't believe so we thought well why not we'll just see and we'd be sitting out we went you know we sat down with bain capital and they're like so what's your team he tells out your team and we're like it's kind of us and they're like no no what and it was just it was dumbfounding in a way to people that we had built what we built really just the two of us with a few other people kind of helping on the bits that we just needed help with because we didn't have enough hours in the day but essentially it was really craig and i let's talk about the product i'd love to go deeper because Because it's product-led growth.

23:11Yes. Like it's, yes, Instagram was awesome. And I think sometimes people, they start an e-commerce brand and they go, yeah, I'm just going to do the influencer thing. Yeah. But if the product isn't something that is shareable or that people get pumped about or they love, like all that on the brand, you don't get the traction like what you have. Exactly. So let's talk about that. Yeah. How did you know when it was the right time to launch? Um, we, cause we, we launched with, um, nylon spandex, like standard bikini fabric. Um, and that was okay. You know, we launched in the graphic prints. It was kind of cool, kind of cute, but it didn't have that like, you know, like it factor.

23:55Like it wasn't like there wasn't, it was just kind of a slightly better version of what other people were doing, but at a better price point. Yes. And so we were like, yeah, this is good. Like it's okay. But like, there's got to be something more than this. It's going to be something different, something new, you know, and, you know, and I'm saying that I was just saying this was mainly Craig because he's the real innovator. And he, you know, was going up, look, he was obsessed with fabrics and trying this and trying that. And what about this fabric in a thick, like a, like a thick and nylon spandex, like four layers or, you know, maybe bonding it onto this or, you know, trying all different things and landed on neoprene.

24:30um you know meoprene's been around for swimwear obviously it's wetsuits um and has been around in swimwear there's you know a few other brands that were doing it um but we were the first ones to obviously take it into the mainstream market yes and we knew when we made them and when i put them on you just you just had me said that you said that feeling it's like oh this is it like Like we just knew. It just looked so good on the body, so smooth, so the lines were lovely. It looked like nothing anyone had really done before. And this was, you know, the colour with the black binding. It was so simple but it felt, just felt special.

25:09And we knew it would photograph well. It would work really well being an e-commerce business because it looked impressive to get. You know, it was more solid. It wasn't like, you know, Nile and Spandex, you know, you can squash into a ball. It was really, it was, you know, impressive to look at and hold. And it looked really good on. So that was when we knew. And then when we put that out, that was what people gravitated to. Because they were like, we haven't seen this. This is new to us. And it's not expensive. So let's give it a go. But it didn't sell that fast straight away, right? Not really.

25:43Like it did. What we noticed is when, because we launched with Nile and Spandex, that was slow. That was still like, you know, maybe like a couple of sales a week, you know, and getting a bit of growth every week. So we were like, this is okay. But you didn't sell out first day, like you've been banging down the doors. No, no, no, no, not at all, not at all. We were okay with the growth because we didn't have any overheads. We weren't paying ourselves, we weren't paying anyone else. So we were like, and, you know, we just knew that we could sort of kind of move with it and change. when we put the neoprene out that is when we saw that jump from three or four sales a week to be three for sales a day and we're like okay all right interesting good good and then we put a few more colors out in it and we were like oh okay this is you know and then and then we had a proper photo shoot in bali and then these little things that would happen along the way in the start and we see that growth and it wasn't massive growth not until you know like six months or a year later we really but we were growing enough to see that what we were doing was working and we were nurturing our customers you know we were talking to them we were helping them through processes of returning or if they if something broke or you know and and so there was just a really good energy and feeling around it and it was Craig and I doing everything so we were sending out the product we were talking doing the social media we were emailing the customers we were doing it all so we were really able to tune in on what was going on at every angle and even though the growth looked small from the outside in the beginning for us it was huge because we were like every news every like I used to get the PayPal notifications on my phone so I would ding when a sale would come through and that was like the best I remember eventually having to turn it off because there were just too many and being so sad that chapter ended because every sale was just that confirmation that we were doing the right thing and when that got up to you know 10 a day or you know even less than that like five a day was still amazing 10 a day was great and then when it got to sort of like 30 40 a day we were like okay we're this this is we're onto something like this is this is going to be great you can just feel it and so how did you guys manage cash flow around this rapid growth yeah yeah so i mean we were we were always cash flow positive from launch we never borrowed apart from the initial so we were borrowed to make the product yes once we sold our first bikini we never borrowed money again um so we were always able to you know we like we weren't spending much money ourselves we were living super lean but we were able to pay for the manufacturing pay for our rent um we weren't paying girls for the swimwear we were just sending products so we had a huge you know we're making that extra product to gift yes but you know we'd worked on or Craig had really worked on getting our costings super, super, super low.

28:33So we were able to gift and, you know, we had no other overhead. So cash flow, we just kept growing our cash really and not spending it because we were loving watching it come in. So we were like, let's keep it, let's keep it. So, yeah, we were really fortunate. Like even with like as the business rapidly grew and product, you need to keep MOQs get bigger and bigger. Well, there's no acute, like you just bigger and bigger and bigger, bigger orders. You guys didn't fall into any difficult. No, no. The more we made, the more we, you know, we put back into making more styles, doing better photo shoots.

29:10Yes. Hiring better models, getting better photographers. You know, Craig used to do the shoots. He used to be the photographer and I would hold the full timeline. Like it was literally that kind of, you know, and we would edit. No, I think we would outsource the editing, but we would do that bit ourselves. So it was all done in that way. So when we got more money, it was just to put those few things in place to make the brand look better, you know, maybe hire. Like we hired a girl in Canada to do the live chat on the side that I was sleeping because I couldn't do it, you know, 24-7. So those little things.

29:44But it all went back into the business. Yeah, wow. Super lean operation. I thought it would be much bigger. No, no. So lean. So you've been fairly open around kind of the challenges personally with the growth of the business. I'd love to hear kind of like the real side of that. Like, you know, people from the outside, you know, you're on the young rich list. You know, people might think, oh, wow, she's got it all worked out. I'd love to trade places with her. I'd love to hear some of the struggles. Yeah. So in the beginning, it was great and we loved it. and my skill sets were super, you know, tangible and I knew what I was doing and I knew my place and it was customer care and it was Instagram and that was great.

30:28And then when the brand became so big and huge and it, you know, kind of outgrew me and I didn't know where I fit in and that was happening at the same time as making a ton of money and all this success and I had my first baby and, you know, and from the outside, every box was being ticked. I ticked every box that you could tick by that age. And I was completely internalizing how I was feeling so much that I didn't even really know what was going on at the time. I just was feeling not as happy as I thought that I probably should be feeling. And then just putting that down to just we were so busy that I just wasn't stopping and pausing.

31:10But it was really that I lost my way through that business. You know, I was 27 when it started. So they're really formative years of working out who you are. And I was tribal. Like that was me. That was my identity. So, you know, you go along on that path with it and you don't really ever get to step away from it because it is you. And, you know, I was too, you know, I was too, I guess, you know, when I got to the really top bit and that was when we moved to Monaco and we had, you know, we were multimillionaires and the rich list. and you know and I asked to not go on that every year because I just didn't want that to be what it was about because I didn't I didn't like attach myself to that I don't know whether it was I didn't feel worthy or I was embarrassed or because I wasn't feeling super fulfilled and happy I didn't want people to see that and and it not be the reality but I was really really struggling and I didn't want anyone to know because I felt like people would just be like how dare you be struggling like look at your life like you've got all the money you've got you know a partner a baby you live in monaco you like come on like but i was really it was like it was that real it's the best thing about triangle that i took away from it was that it does not matter what your material successes are if inside just isn't working it just really doesn't matter and i had to learn that the really hard way and now i look back and there were great times i wasn't miserable the whole time but I just wasn't able to work out.

32:44I didn't have the ability to work out what it was that wasn't working because I'd lost that sense of self completely. You know, it took four years of, you know, really recently to actually be like, I know who I am and I've found my place and I'm ready to go again. Can you tell us a little bit more around that journey and kind of lessons you could share with people watching because the highs are high and the lows are low. Yeah. And there is a dark side of entrepreneurship where it's really tough. It's tough. It's isolating. And it's, you know, you become your brand and that is your identity. And when I exited in 2018, I did not know who, you know, Erin was.

33:30Like I just didn't know. I had two children. I had all this, you know, money which I didn't actually really have because we were settling and there were disagreements with that and we've only just recently settled so that was also happening and I didn't want to go back to Australia and come back to Melbourne and I didn't want to lose my identity and attachment to Triangle because I knew everyone here was so impressed by that and my ego was like no like hold on to that but I needed to let it go to to grow and to like find myself again so you know it was a it was a it was a really long process and I guess you know it's something that I wish because you know I still think about that time and if I was in my 20s and I wasn't watching me and I was back in Melbourne watching this girl succeed and do that I'd be like I want that I want that and I still fall into that trap now of I see people you know making a ton of money or living overseas or traveling and I fall into that trap of oh like that would be nice like maybe like why I should do that or like I wish I could or but at the end of the day it just really doesn't matter like what you're doing and and and where you are in life because if you don't feel that you know and it's kind of cheesy but if you don't feel that fulfillment or that self-worth or that you know kind of grounded feeling of of what your values are and and and what your belief system is and all that kind of stuff if you don't have that you won't be happy no matter what you do you could be swimming in money you could be you know shopping every day like I was and spending thousands of dollars and feeling numb about it like that's where I was at so I wish I had been like I wish I could tell but you know like I wish I could go back and tell myself that or what I really want to do now is actually tell women that that like you know you don't have to be on the hamster wheel of chasing these things because they might not fulfill you and they might like there's things that I am ready to go again about that'll probably be similar goals.

35:26But I know that I'm coming from a base of knowing me and knowing what fills me up and what makes me happy. So yeah, this is a lesson, lots of lessons. Yeah, lots of lessons. So you exited. Uh-huh. I'm curious, what's the plans now? Yeah, yeah. Well, it's exciting. It's taken me. I did take four years off. um you know I have four children so I was busy and I was really working myself out and getting back into you know Erin and and that world so um I yeah took a real break took a really long time to work out who I was and and find what I really loved and what and what really you know made me like ignited that kind of passion in me because Triangle had that to an extent but not in the same way I feel about what I'm doing now and what I really want to do and what I am doing is make women especially in business does not doesn't have to be entrepreneurs you know obviously I have a soft spot for entrepreneurs I know how it feels but just women in business you know men as well but I really do feel super passionate about about women because I know what it was like before I know what it was like during and I know how I am now and I want them to feel less alone, less isolated, more empowered, just better about themselves because, you know, everyone is worthy and everyone has the potential to do amazing things.

36:52Everyone just has roadblocks like we all do and we all have to navigate them and understand them and move through them. So, you know, that's where I'm really, really moving into and I've been doing a bit of mentoring. I'm setting up my website. I'm moving into a few different structures that I'm like, this is my, Like I really feel like Triangle was there for me to now do this. Like this is what I'm really ready to do. So you're going to move into more investing, advisory, mentoring. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mentoring definitely, you know, I really do, you know, I come from sort of working in corporate.

37:32So I really do want to tap into those women as well. and men, I keep saying women because I just feel like it's just more natural for me. And I really want to tap into that and just make people feel better about what they're doing. And I've done a little bit of it. I've sort of become a lot more active on my social media, which was a bit, you know, I felt silly, but now I feel really good about it. I feel like I'm having great conversations. I'm connecting with women again. I know where I'm going. So, yeah, it's exciting. yeah and i'm curious like 2022 there's a lot of e-commerce brands launching yeah um what are common mistakes that you're seeing people make and like yeah yeah because it sounds like you're doing some mentoring maybe with e-com founders or female founders like yeah i'd love to hear kind of what are common mistakes you're seeing people make i think a lot of people are you know I think it's a tough one.

38:33It's probably, for me, it's a few things. You've got to have the right intention when you're starting a business, whatever it is. And people underestimate, I think, a few things. And it's the way other people can feel what your intention is. They know what you're doing, why you're doing what you're doing. It's not tangible, but it's there. And I think a lot of people will start a business with the wrong intention. and then wonder why it's not working because they're like chasing an idea of being an entrepreneur or they're chasing an idea of selling this product or an idea of this but it's not really what they are like truthfully doing so I think that's one mistake I think people still underestimate you know customer the customer journey and nurturing a customer treating them like they are you know king I think that's along with product being obviously number one that's customer is like also number one they sit together they're equally as important as each other because if your product's amazing but you don't nurture your customer they're not going to come back to you someone else will make a similar product and they'll do it and then they'll just go to their we don't loyalty you know I think brands need to in 2022 I think I think it's coming back but I think that connection with the customer and building up that loyalty and that even that word of mouth kind of intangible connections that you're making are they're not as obvious like you're not paying to like sponsor a post on Instagram or like boost you know whatever it is but you are putting the effort in and you will see it come back to you it's just you can't you know see it on a piece of paper but it's really important I think brands really need to focus on that and what about influencer marketing 2022 if you were to do you have aspirations to start another brand if you did how would you approach that right now look I don't have any aspirations at the moment I'm pretty I'm you know happy to move into where I'm moving into but if I did you know influencer marketing I think it's still really important and valid and you can get a lot of traction there but again I think it comes back to the intention and you know and and making the experience amazing like I'm now starting to get a bit of you know and I'm not a creator or an influencer so I don't do anything like that but I am getting those things come through and it's so interesting to me because I'm like this is like this is what I used to do and you know you can tell the ones that are that are really genuine you know and like I'll get messages from women saying I'm starting this brand and it's mine and and I'd love to send you something and you can feel that they just want me to try it because they value my opinion yes and I love that versus the ones that are like hey I want to like you know send you this and can you like tag it and And it's just so transactional.

41:17And I think that is really just not the way to do it. I know brands will get some success doing it that way, but it's not for me. It doesn't have any longstanding success. I think that you've really got to treat everyone respectfully, genuinely, with a lot of integrity. And really, that starts from having the right intention at the start with your business, you know, and knowing why you're doing it. And it's okay if it's because, you know, you want to make money or you want to be, you know, the intention doesn't have to be some honourable, like, philanthropic kind of intention. It just has to be true to you and really not be caught up in some, like, idealistic ego or, you know, whatever it is.

42:00Yeah, I think that, you know, that's really important. And I guess a common thing that you hear is, like, I tried influencer marketing, it doesn't work. What would you say? I would say it does. It just takes time. It's not an overnight thing. I think that it's that on social media you see the brands doing well and you see the people with a lot of followers and it's so easy to get caught up in that. But other people are doing this and they're doing that and I'm doing the same. And it's like, well, just persevere with what you feel is right. And again, it's like a little woo-woo, but really tune into that gut feel.

42:40You know when you're doing the right thing or you're on the right path with something like you feel it so if if they say the influencer marketing is not working it's like well what what isn't working about it because it's either the way they're reaching out to an influencer or who they're reaching out to maybe they're going through all the big fish or they're going for a particular type who's not even aligned with what they're selling it's just like bringing that back and like asking yourself a lot of questions and then and then starting again and pushing forward and maybe like deviating that way yeah and if somebody wanted to learn from you around how to get well-known celebrities to post about their brand what would you say oh I think it's a different landscape now um I would yeah I'm not about pay I still don't think you have to pay different for a campaign if you want a celebrity to shoot your campaign that's different yeah you know that's a job yeah exactly but if you're trying to gift or trying to you know get them just to wear it um for us in the states it was really handy to have a pr agency and they did like a gifting suite their retainers are a big but they're not insanely big and that in the states is super super helpful that really helped us um what's the numbers we're talking oh like that their retainer for us was five grand a month us that's not too bad it's not bad i mean we were that's still for us we were like no what are you gonna give us like tell us you know but it was really helpful because in the states they operate more in that way whereas in australia it's more direct influencer so in australia you know if you want to get on a celebrity that i mean you know they're not as big as the states anyway but in the states if you really want to get say on a karnashian find agency that they're pulling from or their stylists are pulling from yes and sign up with them and it's it is money for for a smaller business but i do think that it would it would pay off i mean it did for us it's like they do suites for Coachella.

44:35They'll do a suite for Miami Swim Week. You know, for us, that was really important. And the celebrities or the stylists come in and they just pick a bunch of stuff and then hopefully it gets on them. Yeah. And I'm curious, when you said you're speaking with the private equity or Bain or had investors, how come you guys didn't sell? It always got to a point where we would have these numbers thrown at us that were pretty high and, you know, it was all like amazing and we're going to offer you this and, you know, it was never a majority. It was always minority, you know, share that we were looking at selling or selling the whole thing.