605: He Bought an Airline for $0.30 (and made BILLIONS) | Tony Fernendes (Best of Foundr)

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0:39Just head to omnisend.com forward slash founder without the E to get started. All right, now let's jump back into the show. Hey guys, welcome back to the show. Imagine buying an airline for just 30 cents and$10 million in debt three days before 9-11, and then somehow turning it into one of the largest carriers in Asia. Today, I'm joined by Tony Fernandez, the visionary founder who transformed AirAsia into a powerhouse brand serving nearly 100 million passengers a year. From a background in music and media to reinventing air travel across Southeast Asia, Tony's story is one of Bold Bet's resilience and relentless focus on culture and growth.

1:22So in this episode, you're going to learn how Tony spotted opportunities others overlooked. the unconventional growth strategies he used to scale fast without outside capital, and how he thinks about branding and focus and leadership in a way very few entrepreneurs ever do. Hear the stories, learn the proven methods, and accelerate your growth and future through entrepreneurship. Welcome to the Founder Podcast with Nathan Chan.

1:53The first question that I ask everyone that comes on is how did you get your job? Wow. Well, I was in the music business for 12 years. I was an accountant before that. And I was in 2001. It was the beginning of this digital age. and Napster had come along and Spotify was just starting. And I thought, wow, this is super exciting for the music industry. But I was a lone voice. No one at Morning Music or Time Warner, which became AOL, which was an internet company, thought it was a good idea. They thought the internet would destroy music. my premise which was that you can't hold technology back and that this was a fantastic distribution model to create more revenue I was alone voice as I said earlier so I decided that you know cutting long story short I also was very against the AOL merger and I just quit in new york i flew to london singing the bar having some alcohol thinking what am i going to do for the rest of my life um shall i set up founder magazine or uh shall i become an accountant again or shall i start my own record label right and uh while i was there i saw stelios who owns an airline called EasyJet in the UK.

3:30I didn't see him. I saw him on TV. Yep. And I always liked planes. I always, from a very, very young age, I told my dad I'm going to own an airline one day. Now, it's one of those things you say that you're not entirely convinced you're going to do, but I said it. And so I thought, well, this could be the time that, you know, when I told my father, I was five years old, I'm going to start an airline. So I took a bus from a pub in Hampstead up to Luton Airport and was blown away. People were flying to Barcelona for eight pounds to Paris for six pounds. Everything was orange. And I had never heard of a low-cost airline.

4:11I thought, what an amazing concept. And so there's a very fine line between brilliance and stupidity. It's very narrow. And I thought, I'm going to do this. You only live once. If I fail, I fail. It's okay. I'll go get a job doing something else. But I didn't want to sit there at 55 and say, I wish I did it. So I came back to Malaysia, got a meeting to see the prime minister along with a couple of my other partners, and he gave his blessing, but he said, no new license, you've got to go buy an airline, which was the best thing ever because we had no money to start an airline anyway. so we ended up buying AirAsia three days before 9-11 for one ringgit which is about 30 Australian cents and about 10 million of debt and on December the 8th 2001 we took over AirAsia with 265 terrified staff because they'd only seen me on music tv shows and now as the owner of their airline um i'd taken over from a very large company in in malaysia which made cars and all kinds of things so uh i think there was a lot of nerves who is this character you know we're going from a very solid base we're not doing anything we're not making any money but we're getting paid every month to some guy who's got no experience in the airline business no money and i think they were very nervous but you know we've had a great run since then yeah so talk to me around like what has been kind of some of the fundamental growth strategies that you've been able to apply to you know uh you know in 2017 you flew over 70 million passengers yeah yeah actually we'll do 90 as a group um which to me i mean the fourth largest airline in asia only the the chinese These airlines are bigger, but they have an inherent advantage of 1.3 billion people in their country.

6:12So that's a slight advantage. But, yeah, I mean, I think two bits to growth, which I think may be useful to your listeners, which is not directly answering your question. But the first thing is growth is critical in a startup because ideas are never exclusive. and you can't patent everything. Anyway, this is not my idea. It came from Southwest and Ryanair and EasyJet. So it was very clear to me once we started moving that this wasn't something I was going to pussyfoot around. I had to put the foot in the accelerator because there were some big mamas around me in SIA and Malaysia who could replicate this model and put us out of business.

6:58So while it's not answering your question directly, I think it's useful for your viewers that when you have something, scaling up is important. Where did I see the growth? You know, there was one figure that hit me when I started this airline, only 6 % of Malaysians flew. So I had a market of 94%, apart from the 6%, who may have flown once a year or once every two years, right? Second was I saw a fantastic market, which no one else saw, which was Southeast Asia, ASEAN. Everyone was fixated about China and India. And I was like, well, we got like 700 million people here so that's where I predicated my story right from very early days I talked about ASEAN ASEAN ASEAN and a lot of our growth has come from destinations that no one did before see so when you took over the company you didn't know anything about zero so only stewardesses so did you look at companies like Southwest yeah 100 and you're like this is a good model yeah Yeah, well, EasyJet was the first start.

8:07Yeah. And then I, through my music contacts, you know, I know U2 very well, and they mentioned Ryanair to me. Edge mentioned Ryanair to me. And I went over to Dublin, stayed in their hotel, the Clarence Hotel, and flew Ryanair, and I thought this was an even better model. I had bought Herb Kelleher's book, so those were the kind of three inspirations I never read books this was the only book I ever had read since Wilbur Smith and Jeffrey Archer when I was 15 and coupled with Flying on Ryanair which I thought was an incredible model and obviously EasyJet and and how'd you learn like like did you have mentors or anyone that yeah well I had uh I had um well you learned the ability to learn is the ability for you to want to learn so I really threw myself in right I mean I was sitting with engineers I was sitting with pilots I went to the simulators I I learned how to change a wheel I you know hang out with cabin crew so I was a sponge yeah I took everything in but look I had a great mentor in Connor McCarthy who was a CEO of Ryanair and had left to set up his consultancy and GE Capital had introduced me to him and he was a fantastic teacher mentor less a mentor more a teacher in terms of giving me the model and a fantastic partner he became a shareholder in AirAsia yeah and to fuel growth you talked about you know when you're first starting, you're building this startup, you've got to grow and you've got to scale this thing.

9:59Have you guys accepted outside capital funding to scale? No, we didn't. I mean, when you look at today and you see some of these business models, I mean, let's be real, right? Three guys from the music business coming to start an airline. It's not the most convincing business case, right? so you know I was involved with Ruad and Wendy Matthews and in excess and crowded house and suddenly I'm talking about airline so no bank gave me a cup of coffee uh did we one capital of course but we didn't have it but you know again that should be a motivational to many of your listeners that we built a massive airline with very little capital right now when I look at all these unicorns now yeah look at grab i was with anthony tan yesterday it's raised 6.8 billion right i mean that's more than my market cap right now um we did we did one 30 million dollar after about three years yep um and then we did the ipo that's it we've never raised capital since then and do you think that startup should look more to self-fund and just sacrifice profit for growth yeah i'm i'm i'm old-fashioned yeah in that aspect uh this new business model is subsidized growth right you give away things to build up customers and we're going into that model with some of our digital ventures but we have customers from air asia so that but i also i'm an old-fashioned guy i believe in cash i believe in making some profits right yeah um i I don't understand some of these tech models.

11:44Obviously, a lot of them have gone on to great things like Amazon, et cetera. But I sit there and look at some of these food delivery services and look at their valuations. And I think, wow, it's scary because where's the profitability going to come from? And yet people are throwing money at it. Crazy. So if you have a model that you can make money, make money. And, of course, reinvest some of that money, which we did. we could have been you know we were invested in building an academy because you can have all the metal you want but if you're not right people then forget it uh we're reinvested in you know sponsoring um to make our brand bigger etc so uh but it's not always about outside capital but build a business that's robust and can stand on its own two feet without outside funding so talking about the digital side you guys are starting to kind of go vertical and and you know look at your existing customer customer base and how can you further serve them yeah yeah i mean there's two parts of this digital strategy one is digitizing everything that's in our company right so we make processes and make it more efficient to work here um and digitize it so our passengers have a better experience.

13:01The third part of this digital strategy is to develop new businesses using the data and creating a travel ecosystem that people will use us for things that they may have used other people for, whether it's booking train tickets when you arrive in Melbourne, or a concert ticket, or having financial services, foreign exchange, et cetera. So we're using and building platforms that will provide more value to my customer, not necessarily linked to the airline, but linked to the travel ecosystem. And it's exciting vision. Implementation is, you know, it's easy to talk an idea. So I'd rather do it and then talk about it.

13:45But there's a huge potential if we can execute well. So you guys are spending a significant amount of improving and digitizing internally here and then turning that cost center into a profit center by using that. Correct, correct. So I think, yeah, the first thing is to get the data right. So we spent over the last two years with Palantir and Google getting all the data right, and then we start using that data now. You know, it's a phenomenal time to start a business and be in business, but the cost of entering a business has come down so radically with digital tools. Even in my old business in music, you know, You can record an album at home now with Pro Tools and your own very simple board.

14:33And if you think of AirAsia, what was the key differentiator from us and all the other airlines? We used the Internet. Back in 2001, most people didn't even have Internet here. But I said, trust me, when I put a fare at two Australian dollars, people are going to find their way to the Internet. I created the demand right and everyone said to me oh no one's going to use the internet you know you put the right offer people will find a way there and so and I was very religious about keeping our data and I didn't have the foresight that we're going to have this huge data revolution but I wanted to keep the contact with my customer I didn't want to be a middle man I didn't want to have the travel agent have the relationship I wanted to have the relationship and that's good and bad if you look at our Facebook will have, I don't think it's bad, by the way, but we have thousands of complaints there because we're very accessible.

15:27And I tell my staff, why are you complaining? Because that's free market research. That's telling you what's wrong with our airline. And you should be fixing those issues. And my TV screen, which is down at the moment, is the complaints board because I keep telling my staff that's free market research. So we were early into the game with data through the internet. Why I say it's a great thing is we were seven generations ahead of Qantas and MAS and SIA who had huge legacy systems. So we could be very nimble. And so again, for entrepreneurs now, the tech world has given a huge opportunity to start doing some great things.

16:08And coupled with, I'm going away from your question, but kind of relating to your audience, great ideas are great ideas only and they stay as great ideas until people know about them and too many great businesses don't spend enough time on marketing and branding right and I think keep a budget for that keep you know because the world has a lot of things happening right now and a lot of distraction points where last time you could just go and advertise on tv or do a newspaper interview and everyone would know about you that's it's dispersed um and I see too many great companies who don't put enough into branding and marketing in the early days what kind of percentage or split could you say like just an estimate well we didn't have much money but it's not always about money yeah I mean you know this where this came from was it wasn't my idea but our head of marketing then said look Tony you know wear this cap everywhere and say controversial things and then the press will take pictures of you right and I said okay that was quite easy it came natural to me I'm good at pissing off people so um uh that's how the hat came right yeah um I don't wear it often now because anywhere I walk someone says can I have it so it becomes costly now um but that was the simplicity yeah of marketing and you know when we saw social media we leaped on it before anyone knew what it was you know we saw Facebook as enormous opportunity and you know I have 1.3 million followers on Twitter and I started that very early on I thought social media was immensely popular it's not always about dollars and cents yeah but invariably you do have to spend and then we we sponsored Manchester United you know when We were a tiny little brand, you know, which was painful was I hate that football club.

18:07But you've got to be a prostitute once in a while. So, you know, you they're very I think PR is a great way of getting efficient brand spend. Right. So I can't remember the exact percentage, but we're always from a revenue standpoint, five, six percent. but the PR value and the sponsorship value was much greater. Yeah, I see. One thing that I've seen, and this is a common one across our audience, is you get one product out, it's doing well, right? But then how do you know when to take focus and add on another product? Because focus is so key. And, you know, with the way that you guys are expanding and doing all these different things and so many opportunities to grow in Asia, how do you know which is the right one that is you don't ultimately so let me take we have so many products now but let's take when I first started we had four destinations right that was our product flying to these four places and so the first big decision is adding another frequency I mean that was a big decision right Kodakianabali we fly twice a week twice a day and we were like oh third time can we do it right and you can do all the market research you want but you're just going to go with your heart sometimes and do it right now we have 20 flights a day now but you know sometimes you can be paralysis by analysis and do too much research so you've got to go with your gut sometimes but you've got to keep reinventing yourself right so we couldn't stand still we kept adding roots and adding new destinations nations um and the product for us was going to places that no one else wanted to go now we're doing it in australia yeah we're going to go to avalon right and most people i don't understand people in melbourne because it's like they say it's far away i'm like come to jakarta i know i know you guys are spoiled you can walk everywhere you don't know what traffic is like right so like emilon it's like wow the way someone in melbourne says it's like it's in another universe right yeah and i went there like it's like 25 minutes so okay you go for a few farm fields um but we're doing that yeah we're doing that we're not worried about it we're excited about it um i know some of the guys in australia are a bit nervous but i think it's going to be a big hit and so product is is about doing things differently as well it's by reinventing yourselves so we had a product going to melbourne you know and we decided well we're going to take that product and be more adventurous and have the ability to lower the fares and hopefully grow the market even more by going to avalon so but you have to keep renewing yourself the world is littered with products that didn't reinvent themselves right blackberry i mean i was the king yeah nokia who can believe a world without nokia phones right they were it um so you know i think it's important that you keep looking and it's hard it's hard to you're making good money it's yeah it's like whoa why do i want to take that money and reinvest but if you don't you die because you're only as good as tomorrow talk to me about culture all right sorry going back it's important i'm also not saying that yeah do 25 000 products right yeah focus is key and my life has been anything but focused in some ways and i failed miserably you know go start football team go do formal one and you know that when you try to do it yourself it fails the football club is doing better now because other people running it as opposed to me trying to do an airline and and a football club.

22:08So focus is important. Yeah. It is important. You have to live within your means and live within your resources, but you also can't stand still. It's a balance. Life is a balance. Everything you do is a balance, right? Yeah. So coming back, just talking about culture and team, like what are the things you guys are doing? It's the most important thing in AirAsia. It is, you know, and everyone's going to talk about it and when I say it, I'm going to sound like Miss World, right? that Nelson Mandela or something. But it is what it is. The culture, we have 24 ,000 people. You know, Alan Joyce or Robert Milton came to visit me once.

22:52Yep. And they were walking around the office and pilots were coming up to me and shaking my hands and taking my pictures. And they were like, wow, this is a new experience. And I said, what do you mean? He said, your pilots actually like you. They want to kill us. So I was like, oh, really? And so culture is really important to me. We have, as I said, 24 ,000 staff, no unions, there's transparency, there's trust. It isn't by, it is by complete choice that we're open plan. Because when you have an office, you create all these invisible walls. People say, I have an open door policy, but the door's closed, right?

23:39And some guy will say, oh, his office is bigger, this is wider, and this face is the sun. So one day I just came in and smashed all the offices. I brought a contractor in and just tore them all down. And then we've been open plan ever since. So culture is, I think, the single most important thing in the success of AirAsia. Yes. What is culture in AirAsia? Transparency, openness, 20 ,000 brains working for us as opposed to 10. Chris told me nothing about this interview. I was just commanded to come here. You're an important magazine. They like you. They think it's great. I came, right? I mean, I see other CEOs.

24:21We get briefing, this, that. I mean, you know, he's basically telling me, hurry up with your interview. They're waiting. He's pointing time. He said, so, you know, we're a fairly flat structure in that aspect. Yeah. And I think most Asian companies, the top 10 decides everything and the rest are implementers. I like to think that we utilize everyone's brain. Teamwork is critical. It's a problem in AirAsia because, you know, we've got big and politics and bureaucracy creeps in. You know, there's 20 camps in Australia and there are only 20 people. trying to keep everyone together is a problem but it's not something I want to run away from I confront it because bureaucracy and politics is the cancer of any organization so we confront it, we deal with it we have a culture department, we have lots of parties because alcohol is a great leveler in bringing everyone together we put everyone in the same office I don't think there are many airlines When you walk around, you've got pilots, cabin crew, accountants.

25:29Everyone's in the same building. Everyone eats in the same place. Everyone goes to the same gym. So I want people who believe they can do a lot more and grow and develop in this company. We have boys who've carried bags for us who are now pilots. We have the largest percentage of female pilots of any airline in the world. when I joined there were no female pilots and I said why there are no female pilots and it can never be repeated what my chief pilot said and I said if a woman can run a country she can certainly fly a plane right and so you know we have many we embrace diversity we don't care what race creed color sexual preference you are and I think that's a strength because that gives us a huge diversity in our workplace and a huge ability to attract great talent and great ideas.

26:27So the culture is the single most important thing. I could spend 20 episodes on it from turning raw diamonds into diamonds, from going outside of the box in terms of recruiting

26:45and giving people the ability to find talent in themselves that they didn't even know themselves, just to really grow that whole talent pool that we have. That's actually a good one because for a lot of our audience, they're just getting started. They're starting to build their founding team. What advice would you have to a founder or CEO watching this and wanting to help their team do their best work in the early days because that's critical, right? Yeah. I think the number one advice is you as a founder and CEO don't know everything and you've got to surround yourself with good people and you've got to be prepared to listen.

27:27Too many founder CEOs think they know it all and that's where they lose good people or they just have yes men because they're passionate about what they do. I'm super passionate about everything I do, but I also know I don't know everything. And so I surround myself with good people. People is, you can have all the ideas you want in the world, but execution is what it's about and you need a good team. So the advice, you know, and this is very, I hate advising people because everyone has their own ideas, but I can only tell you my own experience is that I have hired people who add value, who are good communicators, who are team players, and give them the platform to be the very best and don't feel intimidated and don't hold them back.

28:18You know, I think most of the people who started AirAsia with me are still here and a lot have developed into bigger and greater things. And with your personal brand, you know, you have the Apprentice, can you tell me about that and yeah that was done by the commercial department for many years i turned it down because i didn't think i was donald trump right by the way he stole my red cap um he saw it when i was wearing it and when we we all had an apprentice get together and i came in with my erasure cap so i think he took the idea from me um the make america great one and they uh where was i i lost my mind when you mentioned donald trump uh apprentice yeah so the guys wanted me to do it i said two three years i kind of turned it down and then um they said it was great for air asia great for marketing so i did it i told the producers look i can't be donald trump and i can't be uh alan sugar so they said just be yourself but you do become a little bit of an asshole when you're in that room you know people say wow you're really scary in there and I thought really I watched myself and you are a bit of an asshole so yeah I did it was fun um they wanted me to do it again and I've kind of stalled a little bit on it um but yeah maybe okay and you know one thing that I've noticed as well with in today's day and age is consumers are much more interested and concerned with the people and the you know leadership team or the ceo or founder behind the company and you see a massive rise in in personal brands and and all that side of things do you think this is something that founders should be focused on in the early days or were you because you had a bit of like a you know a bit of a personal brand beforehand like i i you know i don't each their own right yeah um some people can carry it some people can't some people feel comfortable with it yep some people can't so it's definitely um worked in our favor they may not agree but it's helped i think uh it's dangerous because sometimes you come too synonymous with the brand and yeah when you go it's like there's a big void right yeah um so i'm very conscious of succession management yep and you know like we had a press conference today and i made sure i didn't speak and other guys speak and i tried to do less on that front now um but i think it i think it's important there's never ever a press release in AirAsia that I'm aware of, which doesn't put a name there.

31:14I think you have, people want to know who's behind it, right? You want to know the captain flying the plane. You want to know who is behind this, right? So when we had the worst day of my life, when we lost the plane, the lawyer said, I don't have to go there. And I said, are you crazy? I have to go. I have to go for my staff and I have to go for the families because I'm the leader of the company and I can't hide behind it you know you can't just say the good things so i think it's important um that people know who you are and you know you stand behind your brand i think it's better but it really depends on the individual whether they can carry it but i think if you stand behind your brand you give it a little bit more confidence right you stand behind your brand good or bad bad.

32:08You're there. And I've had a lot of bad as well, right? But people know that I'm there. Have you ever failed? Oh, yeah. Loads of times. Loads of times. But failure doesn't worry me because I'd rather fail than not try at all. Many people are too worried about failure, so they don't do anything right you know how many women did you regret not going up and approaching they think damn I should have done that right but at least if you approach and she said go to hell you knew right so I think there's a I have had many failures too long first program but two things about me in that I don't have any regrets because if i didn't try i wouldn't know and to as soon as i know it's wrong stick your hand up and admit it and say you screwed up and move on too many guys hang in there and don't want their ego doesn't allow them guys and girls don't allow them to make that mistake and then they carry on and add more to that error right it's an interesting one like persistence versus giving up and moving on you know there's a lot of people oh yeah i'm not saying give up straight away but you know realize when you need to give up I always say never say no for an answer and dare to dream and go for it and all those kind of things um so no I'm not saying you know give up straight away but know when you should give up and stick your hand up and say I give up how do you know though when to keep going and when to give up you know it's you know you know in your heart yeah that's not difficult for me well look we have to work towards wrapping up um i'm curious what's exciting for you right now everything that's going on with air asia and yeah um you know i i this whole digital side is exciting it's it's a challenge we're up against big guys our fintech you know you've got Alipay and you know I'm like I don't mind I'll take him on and everyone thinks I'm mad right I mean they got a billion users and I got 500 ,000 but hey I started an airline with two planes against Singapore Airlines and Malaysian Airlines and all these other big guys so you know I'm not worried about that that's exciting I love that challenge right I could fail but hey we'll give it a shot so that side's exciting um the digital side is really exciting for me uh and um you know a strange way i'm you know we've had a tough time in australia tough time you know i i i quantus and all these guys have not made it easy for us of course they'll say no we had nothing to do with anything but everything gets blown out of proportion when it's aerasia i mean really blown out of proportion um and that's because we're good and so people don't really want us to come in.

35:17So I love that challenge. I love the fact we're doing Avalon. That's a big thing for me to do that. And we'd like to do more in Australia. We've hired some Australian crew. We've hired some Australian pilots. It's a natural part to be in. So that's exciting for me. You know, tying up with the surfers in Gold Coast was fantastic. But if you push me, this whole digital revolution in AirAsia is exciting. It's irritating some of my guys because I suddenly say, we're not going to use Microsoft anymore. We're doing Google tomorrow, and they all stab my doll and say he's an asshole. But that's part of the advantage of being the owner, that you can do it.

36:04And, you know, ASEANization, creating one airline. I hate race and religion and cultures, and I want to create a multi-ethnic company that, you know, if you look at Emirates and you see they have all kinds of nationalities, but they all gang up together, right? You'll see the Bulgarians on one side and the Australians on another side, etc., etc. So I want to have a fantastic, multi-ethnic, diverse company. And I think we're not far from that. And that's exciting to me to show the world what we can do as an Asian company. Amazing. And when it comes to your vision, has it changed since the early days?

36:46Or it's still? Still the same. It was all about, I thought in the shower, my tagline was now everyone can fly. So it's still that. I wanted to build a brand that was as big as Coca-Cola, which is a huge lofty ambition. I think we've succeeded in parts of Asia that were as well known as Coca-Cola. And my vision was to create a great place to work, a fair place to work, a place where it didn't matter where you went to university, you'd be given a chance, didn't matter whether you had money and didn't get a great education. but if you had a great brain and you had the will and belief you could achieve anything in this airline um you know to turn a raw diamond into a diamond is and we have so many of those that is if you ask me what do i be remembered for is building a great working environment that created a lot of people's dreams come true coupled with the other two things and make sure we have fun right that was a fun place to work we do crazy things like build slides and rooftops with running tracks up there and all kinds of crazy things but so we've got to have fun coming to work but I think if you were to really push me it is allowing a lot of my staff here to live their dreams that would be something that I'd be most proud about you know to see Coogan who is a dispatch boy who's now a first officer and about to be a captain money can't buy that kind of satisfaction when you see that you know and wow you know we i changed his life um and that's uh that's worth more than all the dollars anyone can give me amazing well look um thank you so much for your time tony pleasure last question what advice would you two more what advice would you love to just give to finish off to our audience, anyone that wants to start a business, doesn't know where to start, or anyone that's just launched or just found product market fit.

38:54And then the last one is, where can people find out more about yourself and NetAsia? Oh, wow. There's enough articles out there, both good and bad. Search Google. Buy my book. I think advice I'd give to any budding entrepreneur is follow your heart. advice from Tony Fernandez, yourself, or anyone is useful. I got advice from books, etc., etc., but 90 % is just you got to do what you want to do. And if anyone wants to advise you, then they would have done it themselves. You've got to follow your heart and do it, and you've got to be determined to do it and make that difference. As Nike says, just do it.

39:39second I re-emphasize keep some money for branding it's really important and surround yourself with great people and have fun because it's fun coming to work right you don't want to get up in the morning and think oh my god you know I gotta see Chris fun yeah great Chris is here and he's gonna drive me mad and say you're late come here be on time I've got a very important PR contact here Yeah, so, you know, I think too many business leaders take life too seriously. Too many entrepreneurs get too stressed. And have a balance. You don't have to work 18 hours a day. You know, make sure you give time to your family and your kids and your friends.

40:27You haven't worked 18 hours a day to get you? Yeah, I have, I have. But not every day. I had fun. Yeah. Maybe too much. hey founder fam thank you so much for tuning in today and if you enjoyed this episode please take the time to leave us a review and let us know what you think this podcast is 100 % free we work so hard to go out and find the most successful entrepreneurs and founders in the world your feedback helps us grow improve and even bring on more incredible guests and insights so if you have a second please take a moment leave us a review it really makes a difference thanks again for listening and i'll catch you on the next show