677: We Built a $250M Cold Plunge Brand - From a Garage | Plunge

0:01Hey, Founder Fam. Before we jump in, I want to take a quick moment to talk about our sponsor, OmniSend, the email marketing and SMS platform built specifically for e-commerce founders. We've been recommending OmniSend to founder students and members of our platform for a while now because it just works. So whether you're launching your first store or you're scaling it to seven figures, it really helps you automate your marketing and get results. And did you know, on average, OmniSend customers make$79 for every$1 they spend, which is an insanely good return on investment. And if you're already on another platform, here's the thing.

0:35In just five days, you could actually be paying 35 % less without doing an absolute thing. OmniSend will move every flow across, list, and template. You just show up when it's done. And finally, because you're part of the founder community, you get 50 % off your first three months with the code FOUNDER50. Just head to OmniSend.com forward slash founder and that's founder without the E to get started. All right, now let's jump in the show. They make hundreds of millions of dollars selling cold plunges. Michael Garrett and Ryan Dewey are the co-founders of Plunge, the brand that didn't just enter the cold plunge market, they dominated it, scaling past 250 million in revenue without a dollar of traditional venture capital.

1:20In this conversation, they're going to reveal how they sold$5 ,000 products online before owning a single unit of inventory, the genius and slightly insane gifting strategy that put their cold plunges in front of Andrew Heumann and Tony Hawk for free, and the silent lead time mistake that quietly cost them$20 million in sales. So if you're building a high-ticket e-com brand, this one is an absolute masterclass and proof you don't need millions to build millions.

1:49hear the stories learn the proven methods and accelerate your growth and future through entrepreneurship welcome to the founder podcast with nathan chan

2:03hey i have a quick ask if you're loving these episodes leaving a quick review is honestly the best way to support us it helps the show grow and means we can keep bringing you the founder stories and insights you tune in for. Please share it with a friend. Thank you so much. Now, let's get into it. Ryan and Michael, welcome to the show. As we shared, this has been a few months in the making. I've followed what you guys have been doing for quite some time now. And, you know, you both went from operating closed float spas during 2020 in the pandemic to building cold plungers and you've built this incredible brand from your garage.

2:43You've scaled to over 200 million in cumulative revenue today. So I want to hear like, what was the exact moment each of you guys realized, you know, the hundred dollar retrofitted bathtub was going to completely disrupt the global wellness industry? Well, disrupts like a very generous word. But I mean, yeah, we've had, i think well there was one i mean the first moment i remember we turned the website on and we had a sale and so this was like at the time it was like a four thousand dollar cold plunge and i was living in an rv at the time because the float spas were closed so i had like sold all my stuff to move into our rv we launched this company and we turned the our shopify store on and we have a we have a sale in the first like hour no marketing we're like who even knows that we have a website right now uh that was like one moment of just like not that we were going to go be some company doing over 200 million rev it was more of like it's good signal great signal like uh that there was wow someone will buy a cold plunge so that was like right out of the gate yep yeah i thought like one of the early bfc we didn't even do bfcm until like we're like oh we should do like a black friday deal i think it was like our third black friday in business we finally caught on and we did a deal you know we hired someone who's been an e-comm and it was just nuts you know e-commerce people know like and we're each tub is like five thousand dollars so it's not like oh cool we sold a headband it's like boom boom boom boom and you watch the map and you're just like you know we're probably 3xing our projections or maybe four or five I don't even remember but just like bananas you know just get goosebumps thinking about it and it was like from that year and the next year it's like it's like uh appointment watching just to like turn on Shopify and watch the orders flow through so that was mine yeah so let's talk about kind of how you came up with the concept because you know you had float spas and that takes a lot of upfront capital to open up a float spa it's you know 250 to 400 000 in upfront capital which is basically like a lot of money up front in terms of cash flow management before you've even made a single dollar talk us through kind of that experience to then building and running you know a capital intensive service-based business to then you know selling a higher ticket product through the internet and shipping it and all that good stuff but people obviously buying it from you before you've even you know got the product yeah i think the float spas prepared us in some ways of like managing people and like certain just business fundamentals but completely opposite kind of businesses, right?

5:46Like the float spas, like you're dumping the 400K into it and then you get open. And at that point, like me and Ryan had the same business and you just worked the front desk. And like people come in, you're getting cash in the moment. And at the end of the month, you kind of like see where the bank account's at and you kind of know where the business is at. And cashflow positive kind of day one, at least for ours, you know? and uh you know this inventory heavy business is really complicated you know accrual accounting right like buying inventory four months ahead of time and having to really demand plan very well like every october for the first i don't know five years we would be like doing great obviously and out of money you know like going into it's just it's just crazy hard i didn't i didn't understand that this is kind of where I was coming from at the time of like such a lack of experience of the e-commerce inventory heavy I didn't really know the difference between a p &l and cash flow into what that is it's like I can have a p &l looking great but our bank accounts zero um you know and managing through that and like you know and other times oh great we got a bunch of money in the bank but we have no inventory and that's our most valuable asset and we are running this long lead time and that's having an impact on the business so you know that was like a quick learn into the differences between those and then you know looking at how are we forecasting this business how are we you know the impact of being off either way of of you know sales too light on sales or too heavy um so that was like i think i think for both of us was probably our biggest like hard knocks early on in the business that created a lot of different friction within the business at different times.

7:38Where the float center was like, yeah, it's a big chunk to open. But once you're open, it's like a very straightforward business. I got payroll two times a month. I got a credit card payment once a month. And then I got rent and I got four payments. And then I just manage around that. And what I started beginning, the end kind of tells me what my business is. We're a month, the bank account at the end of the month in our current business means nothing. And so I think, you know, for us, we are a lot, we had to learn a ton there, took multiple hires, the right people to come in, especially at the scale that we were moving quickly at the pace that we were going.

8:15So that, it just, that was probably our, you know, there's so many like downstream impacts that us being kind of behind the eight ball there created on the business in the first, in the early years. It's also just like incredibly hard. We went from 30 million one year to like 80 million the next, right? And that's like so incredibly challenging to navigate. So what did you guys do top line first year? First year was like three months in and we did like still sub a million, but it was like maybe 500K. The whole, the whole constant. No ads. No ads. Like there was no cost to the business. We were in a garage.

8:53You know, we were hand delivering ourselves. there's literally gas in mike's van and uh you know we'd buy the parts it was very simple like we would put the money in to buy enough for one we'd sell that one we oh now we can go buy parts for two and we'd buy parts for two and then we'd sell and we just we had like a six to eight week eight week lead time in that first year so it's a very like manageable it was stressful like we're really no clue we're you know we're cutting pvc pipe in the in the garage but delivering it but it was very, uh, you know, we had good constraints around the business.

9:31Um, so first year was like sub a million, but that was like three to four months of it. And then, and then year one, the first bull year was 2021. I remember early the fall, the 2021, I found a guy on Upwork from Portugal to run our Google ads. I was like, I think we should run some Google ads. What do you think, Ryan? Right. Good idea. And he was like literally on a call with him. He's literally like, Michael, I have been doing this for 15 years. I've never seen return on ad spend the way this is going. I was like, oh, okay, cool. Like we're doing something good here. This is great. That's so funny.

10:06That's crazy. That's a good one. So you said something really interesting. You said you were in your RV, Ryan, and you basically sold everything you had, the float spas, you couldn't run them. and you're kind of down. It sounds like you guys, like, I don't know about you, Michael, but it sounds like you guys were down to like your last dollar type stuff. And if plunged in work, like you didn't want to go there type thing, right? Would that be correct? Yeah, I wouldn't say it was like full last dollar. It was, that was my only income, was my float spas. They were closed. I had no clue what the future held.

10:47I had no backup whatsoever. So there was like an unknown of, I mean, the world was pretty unknown at that point. My only thought at that time was, okay, what can I control? What was my expenses? So let me sell everything. Let me get very clear. Let me get my RV payment less than my rent payment. And now I can kind of live. And I felt like that was something I was in control of at a time where control felt pretty fleeting. And I wasn't like I had made it big from the float spas. So yeah, it was kind of at a point of like, there's not a real big, there's no backup. plan right now um you know and that that was the time and equally like without those float spots closing like plunge doesn't come to life like we're not taking this step um no you know to start prototyping this in the garage so that was you know the greatest blessing that that happened yeah so at what point so you obviously guys were producing these yourself in the early days at what point did you start to manufacture in China or overseas or actually start to work through scale?

11:54Because what I was really excited to speak to you guys about is this idea of high ticket e-com, right? Where you can sell a product, like you said, never seen a ROAS, like you said, Michael, never seen a ROAS like what you're getting. And now more than ever, people are happy to buy a sauna or a ice bath or like hyperbaric chambers. Like this is where the wellness industry is going. And there's a lot of upfront costs for stock and there's a lot of shipping costs, but obviously the customer wears it. The logistics is a lot more heavier, but it's a lot, you know, and it is becoming competitive, but I'd say from a lower ticket it's a lot more it's a lot more competitive so at what point did you guys kind of go all right now we need to actually start getting other companies or manufacturers to help us build these things well we we still assemble in-house here in california so we'll you know we we eventually made our own custom design chiller and we have the custom acrylic tubs and we still you know mate those here, assemble them, test them.

13:08So we still do that. Um, there was kind of an evolution where I think literally for the first, whatever, I don't know how long were we buying just everything that we put on the tub, like on Amazon, it's like for a bit. And then we were like, well, we're, we're getting big. We should buy in bulk. So we found, I found someone in China who was making like an Ozonator and he started to basically kind of become our supply chain in China. So he found the people we were buying from on Amazon and found different versions of it. And, you know, they had engineering. So we started to kind of source things through him over time more and more.

13:44And so he would bulk buy and handle a lot of the supply chain stuff for us for a long time. And that relationship evolved to where he was like, well, let's build our own chiller. And we're like, what do you know about building chillers? And he was very impressive, hired engineers. They built out like a whole manufacturing space and we kind of um you know we had an engineer in-house at the time and we co-designed um you know our own custom chiller and the tub and um so yeah that was how that relationship evolved and um took took years to to get to the the culmination of that project was our all-in which when we launched the all-in was that in 23 october of 23 yeah um and the other products i mean everything was coming from china so we were starting to work direct with even the first what we would call our v1 or it's really our first generation products like they were like the the black chiller that was a hydroponic chiller like we were buying in bulk and that when that company literally became a cold plunge chilling company they were like doing hydroponics And then they, we started selling them with ours and it became the ultimate DIY purchase.

15:00That company like transformed to be like a Copeland Schilling company. So we were in China kind of from day one. But I think to Mike's point, like we really, when we co-designed that or when we designed that and launched that with the all in, that really took us into like, okay, now it's our product catalog. We own this. And then there's been an evolution of like how deep we've gone. Now we fully own the supply chain. We own every tool that is developing the product, but that's, you know, five and a half years in on the process. So it's been, you know, multiple generations of tools that we've gone through.

15:36So, you know, we now have multiple full-time employees in China. So it's taken us a very long time to like really understand that kind of global supply chain. The bathtub was a big win early on, like day one. And there was a, if you Googled acrylic bathtub, it would show up. This company called Vanity Art was there. And I clicked it. And they had a warehouse 30 minutes away. And so I just drove there in my van. And I was like, who's here? And they had like sample tubs and started talking to them. And that's where we first got our bathtub. So they would import them 30 minutes away. And then we would just cruise over with a truck and pick them up.

16:17And that was just kind of dumb luck, to be honest. It was pretty crazy. Yeah, we'd get like really base pricing or dented tubs early so we could prototype and we could fit one exactly in Mike's van. So they would just give us one and we could like, so that was like an early sourcing. And we did a lot of tubs. We actually scaled up decently with them, but then they couldn't really match what we were. And then that's when like 2020 or 2021, you know, global supply chain is just like chaotic. And that was like a crazy time when we were, thankfully we weren't that big yet. yet. And we just, it wasn't like, I couldn't imagine if we were today dealing with that kind of issue.

16:56I mean, it's, it's totally different at that time. It was just like, we didn't, tubs were stuck for four weeks in the port and it was, it was stressful, but we weren't even that big of a company. Um, so it wasn't that big of a hurdle for us, but that was, uh, you know, we had to, we had to adjust pretty quickly. And one of probably the biggest global supply chain crisis that's happened in you know a generation yeah so what i'm hearing is what's been unique about you guys is while you are selling a high ticket product you're not you're assembling a lot of it for a long time yourselves putting it together and making it to order somewhat which then allows you to not have to go and buy straight from china you know let's just say you want to sell start selling saunas you're not going to put them together yourself you're going to buy them from China and then you have to ship them and all this kind of stuff.

17:49So it takes a little bit of complexity and helps a little bit with cash flow. I first started hearing about this concept of cold plunging, I'd say around COVID with Wim Hof. And yeah, I don't know how or what, but it really started to become a cultural movement and shift of doing a cold plunge, doing an ice bath. You know, ice baths have always been a thing, but like actually doing like two minutes in a plunge was a thing. And then I remember even during COVID myself, I bought a sauna. So I can imagine things really kind of took off for you guys, especially kind of 2021 coming out of the lockdowns, all of that kind of stuff.

18:37So I'm curious around, I guess, at what point did it become like, all right, we need to build a team, we need help? Because it sounds like a lot of the growth was quite organic because cold plunging and doing ice baths has become a popularized thing. yeah i mean we we hired i mean first two months was just mike and i but then it was like we started hiring pretty quick people that could build like hey we're getting orders we just need someone in the shop that is handy and can do and build these things and then we started like okay now let's get someone on the phones and we built it because we weren't like a very business planned company we weren't like, Hey, we are projecting to do 10 million next year, 20 of the year.

19:29Like we had, we were definitely taking it day by day. So we were just kind of like, we need someone answering the phone. I can go do some marketing stuff. We were just kind of figuring out the positions there. But I think that was, I mean, I look back at you want some of our lessons. It's like the first year to two years, we still had no clue how big this thing was going to be. And I think it was like, we didn't think big enough into the hires we should have gone and made and really like really nailed an operations person. Like we're just kind of winging it early on of like, hey, let's get a Google sheet together and kind of put the orders in and we'll figure it out as opposed to someone that really had some background to be like, hey, this is the process and this is the system of how you guys are going to build this.

20:10We didn't know that. It took us, you know, wasn't probably until our second, third year in and we're like, wow, we actually, this thing's not slowing down. So yeah, I mean, early, we started hiring the original question out of the gate. but it was just very like practical positions, customer support, someone to answer the phone, someone to take a sale, someone to be there for FedEx and package the unit up and ship it out. And if you run like a high ticket DTC brand, how do you balance between phone call versus purchase online because it is a higher ticket product and what do you drive towards?

20:47I think you want to, the optimal is people check out on the site. So I think the way we always just by default, like thought about our website was just like, how clearly can we give people all of the information, any question we ever get, let's make sure it's on the website somewhere clear to find. And I think that really helped us. And then you have the phone there for the people that are like, hey, are you guys real? This thing's five grand. I have a few questions. uh so we close like almost half of our orders through like an sms or a phone call um so we you know we're kind of neutral i guess like i guess if everyone could buy online that's great but it's not realistic with a product like ours so i think every product's probably different but i think you want to you want to make sure people get all the information yeah it's interesting it's it's i think i mean we really went off of uh tesla gave us a really good model early on of like you know a framework of like wow a car can be purchased online and i you know i bought one i was like this was awesome a great experience so i think it kind of broke especially me like how this can be done so we modeled some of that even like the checkout functionality and how simple it was um through there and i think our customers evolved over the time of like yeah early on people wanted to talk because we were so new of course they want to get to know us and then i think we went super e-com like a lot of people didn't want to talk to us i think now we've gone back more to like a concierge experience and there's always going to be someone that just like i know what i want i'm going to check out we're always trying to optimize for them and you know we have a we've really built out a good funnel process for someone that's entering in from an ad set all the way down to you know a concierge sms phone call that someone can have high touch um for 10k you know if someone's spending five, eight,$10 ,000, you know, you're getting a good range of people and how they're going to want to do it.

22:46So if you were to start again online today, run a Facebook ad, you would still go straight, kind of give the option D to C, but then there would be in a separate call to action, have questions and you know, yeah, you would still split it. For sure. Yeah. Cause different, different strokes for different folks. People want a different experience. I think in the marketing, I think it's key. We really leaned into, you know, us being on social, showing the warehouse. Like I would do these nerd out with Mike videos, like talking about how we build the tubs and look at the insulation and just like how much transparency can we provide that?

23:25Cause we're genuinely doing the hard thing. Like we're building these by hand. Like we're genuinely trying to get these out on time and just like getting that out there as much as possible, people are more willing to like, Hey, these guys are real. They care. Look, I see all these videos of them. Like I'm willing to make the purchase. I think that made a difference. Yeah. Got you. Okay. So one thing that was interesting as well to me is you bought the domain on GoDaddy for$10, thecoldplunge.com. Now, obviously over time, you guys have got the plunge.com domain. I've gone through that exercise.

23:59Founder used to be foundermag.com and then I eventually bought foundermag.com. The guy, funnily enough, that owned the foundermag.com domain didn't own the trademark. So when I launched, I launched with the name was Founder, but had Foundermag. And then funnily enough, he wanted to buy the whole business. He reached out to me and then it took a couple of years to convince him to sell me the domain it cost$75 ,000 us and I broke it up into a payment plan for 12 months I'm glad I did it talk us through can you share what can you share about the plunge domain how like because you guys are going to a really good job with your brand we yeah so I mean of course we wanted plunge that was the brand name and it was like then we bought the coldplunge.com and it was so confusing for people everyone called us the cold plunge like no one knew what our name was and it was this classic Like no matter how much we said, Hey, we're plunge.

24:55We had employees not even like saying the right name. I was like, okay, something's off here. And so then plunge.com was owned by the jazz band out of new Orleans called, uh, plunge the jazz band. So Mike's hitting them up early on. Which was like, it felt lucky. Cause it's like a really old, like site from 1999. They had no, no record out for 15 years. Like, cool. We're going to snatch this up. Give this guy a few grand. And we would send him custom, like Facebook message him. We found him on Facebook Messenger. We shot a genuine like selfie video, like, dog, we just started this company. Like, we want to buy your domain.

25:32Like, we'll give you like five grand or something. We went five. I think we got up to 10 grand. We were like, that was kind of a lot of money for us. And he, you know, I think we offered even some other, something for their band. We were going to buy them. We were just trying. And then he just went silent. Like, he was kind of responding to us. And then he just went silent. and we're like, okay, I don't know, maybe we rubbed in the wrong way or whatever. And he, he just disappeared. And then all of a sudden, you know, I don't know if you dealt with this too. It's the domain broker pops up and he starts, you know, he's like, okay, guys, I, I, I've committed, I've talked to the band and they're wanting to sell or they're open to selling for the right price.

26:11And then it's like this whole game of like this broker's in the middle, who's literally winning either way and so it's like we're kind of negotiating in the most like bizarre format um and so we ended up uh we ended up buying it from the band in 2023 24 beginning of 24 i don't know yeah but we ended up getting the domain um which has been huge for us to get end up getting the trademark because our you know plunge is less of a you know really complicated challenging trademark to get um i never thought we were gonna get the trademark like lawyers didn't think anyway we got the trademark that was that was huge that was a big win and we we paid 250k yeah there's not calm yeah pretty penny so yeah it's one of those i look back it's like i don't know if we it was such a bizarre like i you know at the time i was like oh we got them down because it started like a million bucks or something i'm not paying a million bucks thing um but looking back of what we've gotten from it with the trademark it's like such a worthy you know it did flip people would call us our actual name yeah it really changed it yeah look i can tell you my story which you'll find interesting i um to the guy that i bought it off he owns a lot of strong domains and he's got he's got a lot of successful businesses and I knew, same as you guys, that the more my company grew, the more the price would go up.

27:41Founder without the E, it's only valuable to me, right? Because I had the brand founder without the E. So I tried to get on it pretty quickly, but then it kind of dragged out over time and I kept, same as you guys, kept chipping away. And I actually engaged somebody who was a domain broker and a specialist in acquiring assets like that helped me with all sorts of different assets under founder. And I cleaned it all up. So we have everything founder. And she, we were going up and back on email with the owner and she was advising me and it didn't look like anything was going to happen. And she said to me, Nathan, say this and say, and what she told me to say is just a few lines, just one liner.

28:28What's it going to take to get the deal done?

28:36and when I'm doing deals, I actually use that now because sometimes you just can go direct and then somebody will state exactly what they want and then, okay, I'll give you a price, you give me your terms and then I split it up. So that's how I got there in the end. But yeah, similar type story. 75, did he come back with 75 and that was the number? Yeah, and it started same as you guys, super high. Yeah. Didn't start a million though Because he knew I would be able to afford it. He was early days founder. Even now, I don't know if I'd pay a million bucks for the founder domain. We probably overpaid a little bit.

29:09I think we overpaid. We kind of knew we were. It was even, I even remember, I remember being proud because I saved us 50K. Because it was like, there were like 300Ks the final. And I was just like, and we were like crushing it. And so we're like, let's just get this done and move on. And I was finally just like 250K, that's it. And they're like, cool, we'll take it. And I was like, yes, we just saved$50 ,000. Guys, guys, guys, I think you got a good deal. I think it was well worth it because think, how much do you spend on Facebook ads right now per month? $300 ,000. There you go. One month. Exactly.

29:41Right. So, yeah. But anyways, great story. Thank you for sharing. Something else you guys did really well early days was social proof. You did a tour. You personally delivered free units to influential figures in the wellness space. Tony Hawk, Andrew Huberman, Aubrey Marcus, Rich Roll. That must have been massive. How did you even get in touch with them? Talk us through that piece. Aubrey was our first one. And that was, you know, we're still in the garage. Mike, Aubrey does an Instagram live. Mike, he's in a chest freezer. Mike pings him, does a comment. Hey, looks like you need an upgrade. Aubrey responds, says, hey, are you serious?

30:28And direct message us. And it says, hey, come out to Austin and deliver one. And so we're like, two weeks later, it was the first unit we ever shipped in the history of the company. Had no clue how to package these things. I remember, I didn't even know how to call a truck to come pick it up. It was like, you know, I didn't even know what the process went in. The box we bought was supposed to go horizontal. We bought it vertical. We somehow taped it all together and we shipped it up and that was the first one and then you know what how did it really come from there was it intros yeah we were kind of like hey like who let's gift gift one of these to one of your buddies and uh who he gifted us to wolf wolfman uh yeah wolfman jason ellis andrew huberman where did andrew because andrew was kind of the the aubrey was first but Andrew got into our sphere he was because he had just moved uh launched the pod um and so he was kind of early days of Andrew he hadn't become what he is today and so he was right there and he kind of I forget where that intro was made but it was very organic and he was basically like come on down and we'll meet and you know we hit it off with him and had a really good relationship and just had a very like like we never really had a paid relationship with him um he had one of his protocols he put to our website shouted us out on the podcast and it was all super organic and then from there it was kind of like he thought it would be cool to like why get you in contact with tony hawk like tony hawk was cool to him so if andrew could gift a cold plunge to tony hawk like andrew is now cool in tony's eyes and so they were all like kind of playing it this way and so you know it allowed us to be we obviously turned it into a content time and uh you know rented the u-haul took it down um and so for uh for me it was like a you know dream come true to kind of sit down and talk with these people and feel like i'm bringing some value in their life and um they were super appreciative it was just you know one of those things that was just kind of a pretty magical magical run there yeah yeah yeah it's it's crazy um because i remember seeing some of that stuff behind the scenes.

32:37So another question, and this will be powerful for anyone that wants to get into high ticket D to C. So during your hyper growth phase, you guys pretty much manage cashflow by enforcing effectively a decent length lead time and having customers to prepay to fund raw materials, et cetera. And of course it made sense because you guys are hand making the product a lot of it and putting it together as well at what revenue milestone did you guys to decide to transition away from the prepayment model to holding inventory we couldn't even it wasn't even like i think for a while we kind of like wanted to get there and then the sales would just like fly past you know like 2x what we thought that month you know what i mean and we're like shoot well i guess we're not chipping into the lead time again so that happened for quite a while and then there was one was it the 2023 going into that black friday yeah we made a really big effort we had a whole team meeting and i was like look real companies don't have lead times like we're working overtime we're getting this lead time down we're getting it to people by christmas and yeah we really really made the effort and we were able i mean we had such growth so we were able to tap in we used a lot of wayflyer some of those other like you know um debt structures there that was you know worked for us into what the business was because we were growing so we could do it uh but that was like 2023 was that big moment where we were like let's get to inventory now it's like it pencils so much for us to like obviously a conversion rate driver for us to have inventory um it's also much better unit economics for us because we can get our distribution site set up.

34:25We get our shipping costs down. We're way more strategic in like the shipping. At the time, it was more of just like, we just want product that we can, when you buy it, you get it. And we thought that was such like, it was just a big like step for us as a business to really kind of level up and kind of be the main player in the space. So can you give an estimate around where the revenue from that transition 20, 30 mil, like 10, 40 feet, like... Yeah, we were somewhere in that range. I mean, probably 50, 60 at that time run rate. 2023, what did we do? Yeah, we did 80, like total, but I was just thinking of like that when that was in the summer.

35:12So we were... Yeah. I mean, it was a substantial pretty big revenue run. And that was like, we were, team was working overtime. We were doing swing shifts. It was like, we were stocking up with as much inventory as we could, get them built and get ready to ship. So, but yeah, definitely a bigger impact on, you know, cash. That's a, that was the big trade-off where we went into that, where we had had such a good lead time that I don't think we have felt the full impact of cashflow management of inventory. And then that was the time where I was like, oh, this is now a totally different business that we're needing to manage.