Building a $3,500,000 Business for a Stranger in 42 Mins

0:02If you wanted to hit 3 million next year, I was like we could do 10 million next year. I would just say we're going to take all of our resources. We're going to go all in on TikTok viral organic, and you're going to deploy everything into TikTok shop and get influencers to do lives for you showing all these funny gag gifts. Because like the trophies are so built for shareability. What's up? How are we doing? Good. Awesome. Let's talk about trophies. Yeah. So my name is Cody. Cody Shilson. I own Trophy Outlet. So last year we did about$1.72 million in revenue, mainly trophies and awards personalization, about$110 ,000 in profit, 6.4 % net margin.

0:40And I'm third generation owner of the company. We've been in business for almost 40 years. That's amazing. Yeah, kind of fun. So what's the goal? The goal is$3.5 million in revenue. I really want to double revenue going into this year. This year, yeah. Okay. I think we can do it. So who do you help? So mainly coaches, event organizers, as well as businesses and organizations, which is like HR departments, business owners, sales managers, you know, people like that. Okay. As well as GagGift purchasers. I got that. I got that vibe. Yeah. Okay. So how do you help them? So we offer free engraving, fast shipping.

1:14Everything we do is personalized to the business or the individual, something like that. They go to the website, to our platform, purchase, you know, add the personalization info, the logo, things like that. And then we fulfill it if it needs approval or anything like that. But most things ship in one to two days. So, how do you make money? How do we make money? All right. So, on our website, direct on our website, most of our products kind of land in that$100 to$150 price point. We have products that range from$4 all the way up to$900. So, it's a wide range. Most popular item is a four, five, and six-foot trophy.

1:48which kind of lands about$89 to$130. And then dash plaques, which are like little car show things that guys collect when they go to car shows. And yeah, so it's kind of good. We sell them for$1.25. We sell minimum 50, but we sell thousands of them a year. I haven't even heard of that. Yeah, there's like these little pieces of metal that people just, they have these big boards that they set out at car shows. It's kind of funny, actually. I've always amazed how many ways to make money there are. Right, and that's one of the things our company was started on. Oh, okay. So how do you get customers?

2:15Trofiela started in 1985. So almost, you know, this is our 40th year. And we've launched our Etsy business in 2019. And we did about$70 ,000 the first year. And then in 2013 or 2023, we launched Amazon and did about$300 ,000. And then last year we launched TikTok Shop and we did about$270 ,000 in revenue, but 250 of that came in December alone. So we had a video go viral with 20 plus million views. So we went crazy. So 250 of that came in one month. So that was kind of fun. And you sold those. We sold those, yeah. And not quite family appropriate, but yeah, little desk signs that people bought for their boss or whoever it was.

2:52So kind of fun, but I was a little crazy for December. No, I love that. And you were able to fulfill on the amount of orders that came in? Yeah. Yeah. We did about 13 ,000 of those. So do you have manufacturing set up? Yeah. Yeah. We produce everything in-house. Oh, all right. So we engrave, cut, build it, all it, ship it. Sweet. Okay. Across four different channels, most of our clients come through. Online and internal is through SEO and Facebook ads. We just launched Facebook ads and Meta about October, November with an agency. And then Amazon, we spent about$7 ,100 a month between agency and ads and then Etsy.

3:25And then TikTok, still kind of figuring that one out a little bit since it all happened in December, but about$2 ,000 so far in ads there. Well, how many customers have you sold so far? Yeah. So in 2024, direct on our website, and I have this broken out per channel in a couple of slides, but total visits is about 90 ,000 visits to our site, about 2 ,500 orders. There's a 2.8 % conversion rate and about 781 products. So that's a lot of products. So do you carry all those or is everything made to order? Yeah. Okay. So it's not like you're carrying a ton of inventory, like you've got raw materials.

3:59Raw materials. Most of it we bring in from our vendors kind of as we need it. We don't carry a huge, huge... you know, except for like the desk signs and stuff, we'll kind of stock those up since they went so crazy, but that's kind of an exception to the rule. All right. Then what's been holding you back? So I think it's marketing. Fulfillment wise, we proved that in December, we can handle about double fulfillment. I mean, with limited complexity. So I just need more people to the site, more people buying and we can fulfill it. And also very product heavy with low margins. So working on the margin piece, getting profits up a little bit.

4:32Do you want to like, sell this company eventually or like what's the i know you said you want to double i haven't really had any thoughts of selling but i want to create a business that is sellable yeah so i have the option if i want to sell or no but i would love for it to be a fourth generation business someday if that's an option but but yeah that's the kind of the ultimate goal all right so how many locations do you have because you have brick and mortar correct well we have one retail location now uh we have two locations total uh we closed the other retail location down in its production only facility okay so the other retail location um you know does maybe 150 000 in revenue out of that location so just like walk-in traffic and whatever yeah walk-in email stuff does it break even not really okay so we're kind of so you have a manufacturing facility in one retail yeah which also does some manufacturing as well yeah is there any downside to just like consolidating to the one it's something that we're actually looking at and go more e-commerce and kind of cutting the the retail business.

5:26Most of our stuff's e-commerce anyway. Online retails, I don't think it's going anywhere. And I don't think many people are like, you know what, I'm going to go to the trophy store today. Yeah, I've never heard somebody say that. Yeah, yeah, like all my lessons. Yeah, return some videotapes and then go to the trophy store. So these are the issues. What are the metrics you got? Yeah, so numbers, 1.72 million in revenue, about 110 ,000 in profit, 40 % gross margin. I would have expected gross margins to be higher for this business. And it varies per product. We have tons of certain acrylics. I was expecting like, you buy these trophies and they're like a dollar and you're like, this is made of rubber.

6:01Yeah. Okay. So it just varies widely between the products and platform and stuff like that. But net margin, about 6.4%. LTV, 133. And then CAC, 1190. LTV to CAC ratio, 11 to 1. And that's blended across all channels. How do you come up with pricing? Guessing. For the most part, or I'll look at some competitors. but there's not really good apples to apples comparison necessarily. Do you have like a, do you like a cost plus or like? Yeah. So I have massive spreadsheets of all of our costs, you know, things like that factor in labor. And then I just kind of add my margins to it. And, you know, I've slowly been trying to bring that up over the years.

6:39What percentage of customers are, are new versus return? God, I would say probably just on our website and internal customers, probably 50, 50. Okay. Cause it's a four year old business. So you'd think there'd be a decent amount of return. Yeah, a lot of our business, I mean,$530 in revenue comes just internal. So emails, calls, things like that. Most of that is repeat business. Do you have very high fixed costs in this business? Not too bad, no. Because if you have half the business comes in from word of mouth, I would expect the margins to be higher, like the net margins. Because I wonder, like, I just think of this as big hypothetical.

7:16It's like if we got rid of all of the new customers and we just sold the 500 and something thousand from return customers, that should be free customer acquisition. And then we should make money. Yeah, right. Right. But looking at this, I'd be like, I don't know if we would make money. Yeah. Our cogs are pretty high. I do think there's a pricing issue. Yeah. Which we'll get to. Okay. Okay. This is good. But your LTV to CAC is pretty strong. Yeah. It looks like. Yeah. It's pretty decent. And I learned that a few months ago coming here the first time. So I started increasing. That's not like some revenue.

7:50That's where it's profit. That's profit. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Interesting. And we estimate people stay about three years, excluding Etsy, Amazon. Yeah. Those ones are a little hard to calculate, but through Trophy Outlet, they order yearly pretty consistently. We've got customers that have been with us for 30 years, you know, things like that. So pretty heavy repeat business there. Once we get a customer, they're fairly sticky. So with pricing, I'm going to hit on this one because I'm almost positive there's a big pricing issue. Yeah. Who was in charge of pricing that whole time? Like you took it over from your, I guess he took it from his old man.

8:21So like your third generation. Yeah. My parents ran the company and they didn't have a price structure. They just kind of. And on an annual basis, do you review all prices? Every year. Yep. Interesting. It's about February, March of every year is when our vendors raise prices. So then I adjust accordingly. Got it. Was their margins the same when they were running it? Much less. Lower? Oh, way low. Like not making money at all. So my mom was running it. I remember very distinctly looking at a product and the cogs on that were like$50 and we were selling it for like$45. I mean, this does not work.

8:53Yeah. So I immediately raised prices, like, you know, doubled them almost. Okay. And I'm constantly just continually up them. Yeah. I think I have some ideas there. All right. What else you got? All right. So channel breakdown. So direct traffic and internal is our biggest 13 to 1 LTV to CAC ratio. Amazon, our highest conversion rate and 9.6 % conversion. And of course, the blended 11 to 1 LTV to CAC. Interesting. And so you don't have LTV metrics on TikTok? No, couldn't quite figure that out yet. Okay. Well, the easiest way to do it is just go total revenue divided by total number of customers.

9:30So you did 262. Do you know how many customers you sold on TikTok? I think it was about almost 13 ,000 customers. 13 ,000. So, okay. So 20 bucks. That sound about right? Average, yeah. Unless they have a draw to value, right? We just don't know how many times they've purchased. Right. Which is one as of this point, you know. Thing is, that might be artificially inflating your LTP to CAC, right? Because you have zero CAC there. Okay. Or did you not? No, that's exploiting. We skipped it all entirely from the calculation. Yep. So you want to double revenue. Yep. Got it. What's this I hear about you wanting to buy another business?

10:02Yeah, so I had a business reach out to me that's in the same industry in the St. Louis market that we're already in. So he's getting old, wants to retire. And what's he doing in revenue and profit? He does about double what we do, about$3 million in revenue. Don't know profits yet or anything. We haven't even got to that point yet. But he's got a, from what I understand, he does pretty decent on his margins. just through communicating and talking to him. He does a lot more custom stuff, so there's a lot higher margin on some of that stuff. He has a lot bigger orders, which is nice. So he can bring it in from China or from elsewhere and keeps his margins low or keeps his margins higher.

10:38I'm sorry. Yeah, I got you. The biggest concern with him is 70 % of his revenue comes through one customer. Yeah. So that's a pretty big red flag. Wouldn't buy that? Gotcha. I would try and find out, if I could, who the vendors were that he has in china for his connections for his raw materials yeah so that i could try and use those vendors yeah that was actually one resource i thought was well yeah i could buy this and it's cheap enough it's a monstrous customer risk and especially if you have somebody retiring that that one customer might be even if he was willing to stay on for two three years four years to help that transition well part of it is what kind of business do we want to build right so you just want to like you're you're considering closing down the first location we have to basically there's a bet that we have to make which is like do we think that the future of this business model has lots of brick and mortar locations if so then we have to fill the brick and mortar model in a lot more detail with the unique economic eternal capital or it's we're going to be online and if you're online then why bother which most of his stuff is shipped as well it's not retail business i mean it's not brick and mortar yeah yeah i mean he has a retail storefront but most of his business isn't is online yeah but 70 it's not necessarily online it's through um basically wholesale yeah customers that sell you know to large large clients things like that so it's assuming i'm thrilled about it yeah uh one there's the customer risk the other thing is it's like it's not the business that you're even though you're obviously in the trophy business it's like it's not actually how it's basically all net new it's like b2b versus b2c because we have to think about all available moves on the board not just like this because like said differently.

12:14If he hadn't emailed you, would you have approached him? I would have actually kind of pursued it a little bit just to get the information. It was a connection through our event, one of our vendors. So that's how I got to know him. Well, I'll zoom out from the, from back forward, which is like, what do we want to be when we grow up? Basically, this is going to become a media slash marketing business that monetizes through trophies, right? Or you can go the B2B wholesale route, which is probably like outbound sales team that's calling wholesalers and whatnot. Yeah. From what it sounds like, it sounds like you're better suited for the e-commerce direct-to-consumer side.

12:50That's what it sounds like. I don't know. Currently, that's where we're at, yeah. We do some wholesale currently, and it's just easier. Yeah. But that just kind of came naturally. It wasn't anything we pursued necessarily. Yeah. But yeah, majority of it's all e-commerce. You might have one of the simpler plans that I have. Yeah. Yeah, which is, I mean, simple doesn't mean bad. Simple is good. You know, sometimes you have like 10 things to do. It's better than three that move the needle a lot. And I think you're kind of in that situation. There's three big things, but I think we'll, why don't you come over here and then we'll net it out.

13:22What percentage of customers are gag gifts? So that's the Amazon, Etsy. TikTok. TikTok. I don't know all that. So that's like 40%. Yeah. Roughly. And that's kind of been the fastest growing since 2019. That's for sure. when we launched that which is all under a different brand technically okay we started a different brand back then because we're we don't want the explicit vulgar to be under trophy out sure you know church moms and stuff get it i hear you with this business like fundamentally you just have it's you've traffic in a conversion page like and then if you already have let's call it for right now not a constraint on manufacturing or anything like that the three big kind of levers that I want to go off of is number one is consolidation.

14:05Okay. Pricing, which also instantly has to profit. Absolutely. And then media. So from a consolidation perspective, um, we have the skews, right? Yep. Uh, and then we also have the, uh, brick and mortar locations and then we kind of have like model. So like in terms of like how I'm thinking through this. Okay. So from a skews perspective, if you're not carrying that, like normally I'd be like we need to massively cut down on skews but like if you're not if you don't have like this warehouse full of stuff and it's just like more options for people to purchase i don't think we need to like get rid of anything and a lot of the skews too it's the same product just maybe for football versus yeah right it's a it's a goat trophy and you just put a different plaque on it that doesn't bug me and if you're like man it's it's super hard for my team to to build all these different things that i'd be like all right well then we should we should look at that but if it it doesn't seem like you're stressed on the manufacturing side no but that's where my skill set lies to ours operations it's no that's good to know it's the where's the constraint right so the second is the brick and mortar right yeah so um if you have this retail location and it's basically breaking even or losing money and that's not even the future of the business then to me i would say let's just save our 50 000 a year in rent and then just add that to the bottom line right i feel like that would be a good idea because that would increase profit by 50 percent yeah which is like chill pretty much instantly yeah and also there's just like the headache of like it's this thing over here yeah and you've got and you probably just take the couple good people from there bring them to bring them home right you know yeah um so that feels good so the next one is model so this is the thing that i'm really like i don't know torn on at least for me what appears to be the obvious solution is to go on the where where the fast growth is right which is the gag gift thing the problem is that there's zero kind of reoccurring nature of that right So it's basically like when you have that business, you have essentially a media arbitrage business where it costs you almost nothing.

16:02You get a customer, you make a spread, and then that's the business you're in. And every month you're going to be looking for how do I make new media, and that's the game you're in. If you want to go, I want to just get every league in the nation. Like if you were like, if I wanted to make this the most valuable version of the business, not necessarily make the most money today, but the most valuable version of the business, It would be, I'm going to be really targeted with the few avatars you have, like leagues, event organizers, whatever, and say, like, these are the four avatars we have, and we're going to be targeted with our ads for those people and our SEO.

16:36And the whole business is around, like, we only deal with customers. And I would probably even say, do you have phone sales or anything like that? Some. Or email to place the order. What's the average order value for the, like, a league? So internal orders, I think it's like, I want to say it was like 350 or something like that. So it's a higher order value. Yeah, for sure. Okay. Because I wonder if, in some ways you have two businesses, let alone, like, if you were, like, forget about the third one you're thinking about buying. Like, you already have two, and I'd rather have one. I'm not saying cut the one that you have.

17:08It's obviously a 40-year-old business, but, like, you really have to make that decision. And that's actually not a me decision. It's a you decision. Okay. So I'll say it the way that I think Layla loves framing opportunities this way. because I always think about upside, she always thinks about downside. And so it's like, what problem would you rather solve? So in the gag gift path, the problem that you're gonna have to solve is you're always gonna have to find new cheap forms of media. So it's gonna be like TikTok shop is what it does today and live shopping, and that'll probably be good for another year or two.

17:34And then it's like, that'll start to get more expensive and other people compete. And it's like, then you're gonna be in the next, whatever the next game is. And you're just gonna have to get really good at paid ads and creative and conversion optimization on the site, increasing average order, that kind of stuff. The other path is you build either an outbound sales team so that they can sell these kind of B2B offerings that are, you know, or B2C if you want to consider the fantasy leagues. And or just like a meta, just like a simple meta ad strategy that would lead people to call the number functionally.

18:08And then there you're saying, cool, our goal is to be your trophy provider for life. And I think the fact that your 40-year-old business sounds really good. It's like, hey, we're 40-year-old business. our goal is to be your manufacturer for life and so of course we're going to do this one but if you want we'll also give you 20 off next year if you make the order now or something i don't know i think i play around with that but which of the two paths sounds like the the life you want to live yeah that's gosh that's tough only because media for me has always been a hurdle do you like it okay fair i will do it but i don't know that i love it per se because you could because like if you wanted to hit 3 million next year i was like we could do 10 million next year um i would just say we're going to take all of our resources we're going to go all in on tiktok viral organic and you're going to deploy everything into tiktok shop and get influencers to do lives for you showing all these funny gag gifts because like the the trophies are so built for shareability yeah like and so that's i mean 20 million views is a monster video i think if that was all you focused on you would be able to figure out because these are funny right and i think having like little skit scenarios uh where people you know walk in and they see the boss is thick or they change their their uh their plate or you know someone loses and then it just says like biggest loser you know like that like the the negative versions i think that would just make for really viral content and i feel like that would be easier to replicate just constantly doing that the league's thing is like that's like that's the that's the very stable version of this business and if you did ultimately want to sell in the future you being able to go to a potential buyer and saying like i have 5 000 leagues that buy our trophies from us every year and leagues on average stay for 12 years you know like guys who do fantasy or whatever it is it's like that's fairly you know that's a pretty that's a pretty reoccurring business you know that's a that's a that's a pretty good business yeah harder to build though and slower right that's also why it has more money so that's the So if between those two paths, the like, I would like to just make more profit now and potentially scale faster, then we can talk about the media version of this.

20:09I think that's probably where I would. Okay, cool. So first things first is we're going to consolidate attention. So we're going to shut down losing location. So that should right off the bat be a plus 50 % improvement to profit. Yep. Which is great. And I think it could be more than that because your attention is going to not be split anymore by two locations. Okay. The second thing, you have basically something called a cost plus model. You look at your costs and then you add a margin in and whatever. And a lot of businesses do it because it seems very logical. The problem is every business I know that does a cost plus model doesn't make a lot of money.

20:51And so you want to switch to value-based pricing, which is purely based on what someone's willingness to pay is. and that could be unlimited and it doesn't matter what your stuff costs because why do they care what it costs right and so basically like as your vendors increase their costs to you in some ways it shouldn't have any effect on the price of what you sell because the price of what you sell is completely divorced of that and based on what somebody's willing to pay so in terms of how we can do this there's a couple thoughts here so a which will seem a little bit less scary is I would consider, and this is sound crazy, but like monthly, like 5 % price increases, like just keep going and just keep going.

21:35That is like path one. And the thing is, is that every time you raise the price by 5%, you double your profit or I'll say 6%. If you want to be like, Hey, I doubled my profit this month. Then the next month you can raise by 6 % and then more than double because it's 6 % times the 6%, right? So that is, that is one way. The other way is that you just start immediately split testing kind of like 80-20 on your highest sales velocity items. And so this is simple, right? This is simple to do. You have to do any thinking, you just add it, and that's what it is. This one will probably get you more profit faster.

22:08It just takes a little bit more thought. So you'll take those four foot, five foot, six foot trophies and just start like, just keep bumping the price and just seeing what conversion it looks like. Because what we're trying to optimize for it, did you have an engineering background? Okay. You said you were good at the manufacturing. My dad came from manufacturing, so I picked it up there. Yeah. So what you're trying to optimize for is gross profit times units sold. And so if you think about it, it's like down here, it's like I'll have a ton of sales velocity, but I'll have low margins versus here I'll have fewer items sold.

22:45But it's like, where's the sweet spot where I get the most amount of units sold at the highest gross profit. Oftentimes it's, it's higher than you think it is because we're, I think a lot of entrepreneurs get stuck is like sales velocity goes down and then they get afraid. But the thing is, is that you will usually make more money before you make less money when sales velocity drops usually. So it's like, we sell 10 people at, you know, with a hundred dollars of gross profit. And then when we, you know, move the price up, it's like, we sell 80 people, but we're at one 50, but you're like all the sales teams like, I don't know, dude, the price seems really high or how the conversion on the page drop.

23:20It's like, yeah, but we're making 50 % more money. We lost 20 % of sales. If it were me, I would 80-20 this and this is what I'm solving for for pricing on the most sold products. You can have a much faster feedback loop for the testing. And so in terms of cadence for price tests, would you do it on the site more or do you think you would be doing it on the phone? It'd be on the site. Okay. Yeah. Because that's where customers see the pricing, even if they call or anything like that yeah i don't know how many people like buy is it a super price sensitive market trophies yeah okay like car show guys are cheap i'll bet you what's interesting about this is that your recurring revenue business is very price sensitive it makes me lean more towards the the gag gift side anyways because it's like we can get customers for free and we have far more pricing power because they're in the moment they think it's funny whether it's eight dollars or it's twelve dollars or sixteen dollars like i kind of just want to buy it yeah but that's you know the difference between eight and 16 is monstrous, right?

24:15Yeah. For the business. Um, so psych pride test, and I would probably start with, uh, the gag gifts here, and then I'll make three. Let me try one, 6 % on a boring side. Now this is the major part is if your focus is going to be media and that's going to be the direction that you're going in. Was there an influencer or something who made the video that had the trophy in it? They got tagged our product on TikTok shop got tagged and we sold 70 to 100 off of that and we did a follow-up video and that's the one that had 16 million views okay how many tiktoks you make in a month uh right now we're doing about uh one a day and we're trying to ramp that up to three a day okay yeah because the thing is is like your amazon and etsy i would imagine are fairly passive normally i would consolidate it if you were like i'm running all these things i would say like let's let's focus but if that's like kind of on autopilot and I am familiar with like Amazon handles a lot.

25:12So the direct site traffic right now comes predominantly from SEO. So talk to me about that. Do you have an SEO firm or you know, it's an SEO firm agency. How long have you been working with them? This one about eight months. Additionally, I've only, I've always had pretty good success with SEO. Okay. And then we stopped SEO because the company wasn't, previous company wasn't performing. We just let it go for just several months and then hired another company. And then when these guys came in and started going back up again, what stops you from like doing more SEO or rather what stops that? Like if you were to say, Hey, cause I mean, when I see 13 to one, right?

25:48I'm like, that sounds interesting. If you were to say, Hey, I want you to give me like three clients worth of focus so that you can give me three times the backlinks and three times the articles or whatever it is that they're turning out for you. I, is there anything that's, cause if you get 13 to one, it's like, we should spend as much as we possibly can on that. And that's why I started Meta. But it's different though. Yeah. Because it's interruption-based ads versus SEO where it's intent-based. Because it's also like these things are things that are not taking your time. So this is like media one is SEO max out.

26:23And the SEO company wants me to do Google ads. Yeah. Throw into that mix. Okay. Mm-hmm. Yeah, especially like these are both intent-based, right? Yeah. Like at the very least, you should own your own terms. which is like all your names and derivatives of your names. Like I've, I've rarely seen anyone in any business just own their own terms and not make money off of it. And some people are like, why do I want to pay for a click? I was going to get the thing is, is like, you're not always going to get the click. And so having it there, I'm like, you're going to make the money, like just, you know what I mean?

26:51But then the, the, the second version of that is associated terms. That's where the, like the long tail keywords and because yours, because the boring side, So this is all, this is all like the boring side of the business because trophies are so like, oh, I have to get trophies for the team this year. It's like they're in this window and they're just going to buy whatever is like pretty much immediate. Yeah. So I think this all makes sense. I don't know if people, I mean, you're running the meta ads to get the boring trophies. I would bet that that's probably, I mean, you could do it, but this feels like it's less interruption based, more high intent based.

27:30Now, gag gifts, 100%. No one's like, hey, fuck your moon, follow the plan, trophy, right? Or whatever. So this is the, if we're looking at this, these are all what I would consider black and white, very low lift, almost guaranteed to make you more money moves. Almost all of these will just make you more money. This is 13 to 1. This is probably going to be high return. This could double the profit. This adds$50 ,000 to the bottom line. The price test for sure are going to increase on the gag gifts. so now we can talk about the the media side so you're going to go from one to three a day I think that's a good idea what I would suggest you do is look for so there's gonna be you so there's gonna be you so we're gonna go from one to three a day and I think that you should focus on trends and memes so like because this is a gag gift brand so it's okay for you to just like be silly and ridiculous and so like just hire a 17 year old um it's a turn scroll yeah i just feel like what's like what's trending right now you know what i mean like some what's interesting is that a lot of these um tiktok ones also do well on instagram so you could repurpose there do you do you post on instagram yeah okay yeah so started yeah it was you're gonna you'll you'll get double you know you'll get double usage on that but yeah tiktok is like the perfect platform for you for these bi gifts like it makes complete sense to me they did 250 000 in a month and so when I, the reason I said the 10 million is like, okay, well that happened on accident.