Caspar Lee — founder, YouTuber and VC

0:00Hello and welcome to another episode of the Gentleman's Journal podcast. I'm Joe Bulmore. I'm the editor of Gentleman's Journal. And our guest on today's show is Casper Lee, the founder and VC and once upon a time, YouTuber. I think at least that's how many of us first became acquainted with Casper. Way back in 2010, in the glorious first flourishing of YouTube, a more innocent time when someone with great hair and funny ideas could sit in front of a camera in their bedroom and communicate with millions of fans around the world. A more innocent time, a better time, surely. Kasper's first ever video, and we speak about this here in this episode, was posted in 2010 and it was of him in the bath.

0:42And he was comparing, I think this is right, the relative painfulness of baths and showers, prompting the inevitable response, I think you're doing them both wrong. I think it's fair to say that Kasper's style improved fairly rapidly after that and he became hugely successful as a young man, as a 16, 17, 18-year-old with his viral YouTube channel, which interviewed big celebrities in a funny format long before we had chicken shop dates or hot ones. He had people like The Rock and Kevin Hart sitting down with him at the age of 18 and talking about their movies. Casper's story, though, is really interesting because he used that early success and that early kind of creative outlet to start all sorts of other entrepreneurial ventures.

1:28He is now the founder of Influencer.com, which is a marketing agency with offices all over the world that connect some of the world's biggest brands to content creators. MVE Management, he's the founder of that too, and that is a management company for creators. And finally, Creator Ventures, a venture capital fund run by him and his cousin Sasha, which invests in the consumer internet space. something that Casper obviously came up in and knows about better than perhaps anyone. So it's a fascinating story, an amazing kind of modern entrepreneurial story, creative success in one field with a new technology, and then pivoting that to all sorts of success in other areas too.

2:11True entrepreneurship. And I think it says something amazing about Casper that he was able to do that, that he was willing as such a young man to want to do that, never resting on his laurels, and says something definitely about his very engaging, grounded and yet ambitious character. I loved talking to Casper. It was wonderful to meet him. And I hope you enjoyed the episode as much as we enjoyed putting it together. But before we begin, I'd love to tell you about Gentleman's Journal Clubhouse. This is our membership package, which unlocks a whole host of benefits across the Gentleman's Journal world, including two issues of the magazine delivered to your door each year, full access to all our paywalled content, exclusive invites to members-only events, including live panel shows with some of our podcast guests, and a weekly members-only newsletter delivered into your inbox every weekend.

3:00At the moment, we're doing an offer where listeners to The Gentleman's Journal podcast get 20 % off the usual price of a Clubhouse membership. Just go to thegentlemansjournal.com and enter the code POD20, that's P-O-D-20, for 20 % off a Clubhouse membership.

3:27Casper, thanks very much for joining us here on the Gentleman's Journal podcast. But we're, of course, joining you because we're sitting in your office in Soho, London. And behind you, I can see three slogans. Are these official? What do these mean? So we have bring the energy, be dependable and do it together. that these are company values. So when we look at hiring staff or promoting within, it's something we take into account. And none of them are unique on their own to any company. Everyone aspires to have these things, but when they come together, it's kind of unique to influence. So these are the things we really care about at our business.

4:05And we use this operating system called EOS, which is the entrepreneurial operating system that has all of these different things. There's a book called Traction. You can read about it, but there's things from like level 10 meetings to quarterly offsides, how you run all of that and values are a big part of the system. And yeah, so it's something I didn't realize was that important. I used to think, oh, these are airy-fairy words. When you're actually in conversations and people are asking you about, you know, what's it like at Influence? It's really helpful to have things that like are official and we've all agreed on.

4:33And aren't aspirational either. These are things you can't like say, oh, I'd love, like a lot of people have like be kind as a value. I just think that's a little bit like, okay. Everyone should be kind. Exactly. But yeah, so, and they also can't be like, be the very best team in the world. Obviously, we hope we are, but they can't be beyond us. They need to be things that are realistic. So those are our ones. That's pretty good. Even though we are the best team in the world. Of course, of course. I used to work for a brief, very brief period at Amazon and they have their leadership principles.

5:01Have you heard of those? Yeah, I think. Are they 10 or? They're 10. I think there's actually maybe now like 14, which is a bit less easy to keep track of. But I can't remember what were some of them. One of them was customer obsession. That's good. Frugal tea around fruit. Yeah, be frugal. Frugal. Definitely. yeah so yeah I mean and someone like Amazon I think they they are pretty hardcore when it comes to that kind of stuff I hear they do like a 10 % a year type you know I don't know if they call it a cull that sounds quite hectic but I've heard I've heard things around like yeah super super hardcore culture yeah which you know at a company like Amazon it seems to work I think in different industries you know there's different cultures you need to build and within marketing I don't I think that culture would work.

5:45No, definitely not. So how many people work for, we'll get onto your other different concerns and industries. How many people work for Influencer, the company we're sitting in now? I think 180 people on the Slack channel. So yeah, it's amazing. And they're all over the world? Yeah, the majority are in London, but we have offices in Saudi. We've got people in Dubai, Berlin, Amsterdam. Now our second biggest kind of country, I guess, is the US right now. And it's actually going to overtake EMEA in the kind of next year or two. So there's about 60 plus, going to get to 100 fairly soon. Wow. Mostly in New York.

6:21So yeah, I get to spend a lot more time there, which is exciting. And yeah, it's an incredible company to be part of. And I'm so proud of what we've built. And it's weird for me to obviously be involved in this, but this is not my only thing. And it's like, how the hell are we, how's it all working? I didn't think when I started all these companies, I didn't think they would all end up being around eight years later. So yeah, it's a lot of work, but I figured out how to do it. I think my ADD kind of helps. Right. How have you figured out how to do it? Because many people will remember you as a sort of high energy, very lovable character who was just filming videos in their own bedroom.

7:03And in a very short space of time, you're running a series of really quite big businesses. Do you just learn on the job or do you read about it? What do you do? I listen to a lot of people talking about things on podcasts. Yeah. And I have some really great partners who, in everything I'm involved in, I'm not necessarily the CEO of any of the companies. Like, I'm not line managing a bunch of people. You know, an influencer, Ben, is the CEO. And I'm the chief vision officer and co-founder and then on the board and so on. And it's kind of perfect for my skill set because I love to throw a bunch of ideas in the mix.

7:45I love to go out and learn. I love to meet people. I love to open doors. I love to build partnerships and special projects. And I think that's why not being solely focused on one thing can be helpful because people know that's the case. It also allows for there to be less key person risk in the business where like if you are literally like the one keeping everything together, is that really a good business? or is that just because you're really like working super hard and you're able to do that? So I think almost being forced to trust others and being forced to empower like management teams, like MVE, for example, we've got an incredible management team.

8:22That's my talent management company. Again, I think from the very start, it was always about empowering those people. Whereas, you know, with competitors, maybe there's still too much key person around like the founders. And I think that actually can slow you down while it can really keep things together especially in the first few years, you need that kind of like founder energy. And still, I still, I'm not saying I don't have that. I still get obsessed with the details. I still like care so much. But if you're, if you're, you know, I think I've almost been forced to let that kind of solve itself by hiring good people.

8:52And I think that allows, allows me to do multiple things. And I think in terms of how did I learn how to do that? I think you kind of, you know, being a YouTuber, you kind of learn how to collaborate with people who kind of use leverage to like convince people to do stuff with you and and it's it's it's kind of similar and uh yeah i now i've spent i mean even though our people maybe still think of me as a youtuber you know i've been doing this business stuff now for like you know over eight years and i definitely didn't know what i was doing in the first kind of half of that and still learning but uh i think the time spent obviously kind of adds up yeah it definitely does and it's the company's called influencer which is a word which is kind of one of the more zeitgeisty words of the last 10, 15 years, for better or for worse.

9:37I think some people have very negative views. There's a media portrayal of influencers being vacuous people taking photos in holiday spots. But there's also probably a very different side of that. And maybe we call that creators. I don't know. What do you think about that word? And why did you decide to use it as the title for your company? So Ben actually started 10 years ago, and then I joined like eight and a half years ago as a co-founder and it was just him at the time he managed to get the name the name back then was different to what it is today but i think what it does for us is it shows people like we were very early to the space to get the name but that doesn't mean we call the people we work with influencers yeah we work with creators to drive influence whereas yeah i think you're right in terms of when you you know think about an influencer especially someone who calls himself an influencer.

10:27I think generally it makes me think of people on the beach taking photos. I do think partly that's probably mainstream media has also thought of creators as a disruptor and obviously you've even seen like brands who used to take journalists on trips now taking creators and them having to be thrown together in the same trip and writing articles always it's always easier to do negative stories and when you're talking about influencers in a negative way it's going to click more than when you're talking about them in a positive way. But I think when you use the word creator, it encompasses such a large group of individual people who are really good at creating content or they're really expert in the field, so they create content about that.

11:09And that word itself is something I'm really proud to call myself and I think hasn't been attacked so much, so I'm almost glad that the word influencer has taken the slack rather than creator. But for us as a company, the people who work with us, they don't look at the word like that. They understand there's more to it. And I think it's still worth us being called influencer. Even if the word can be slightly Marmite. Yeah, yeah. Marmite's good. Good way to put it. I saw an interview you did with Jamie, Jamie Lang, which was lovely. Yeah, he always seems like such a uniquely warm presence. But you were saying that influencer is probably the most sought after job in the world in many ways.

11:48A lot of people want to be it. Do you think you must have a lot of young people who come to you looking for advice and maybe wanting to emulate your career path. Do you think it's something to aspire to or do you think it's like wishing to win the lottery in a way? No, I think knowing how to create content is something we should teach young people, not because we want them all to become influencers or even all to become their own creators, but I think it gives you a voice in this world where that's how you reach people. And so just like learning, I know obviously writing is super important still, but back in the day when not everyone knew how to write, those who did could get their ideas across they could convince people to join them they could like launch political movements yeah or religions exactly and now i think that uh a big part of that is those who know how to create content have that power wow that doesn't mean you need to wield it for for politics it doesn't mean you have to become a massive entertainer but it also means like you can do that but you could also have a hair salon where you could reach more customers because you know how to make a bit of content or you can be a photographer yeah who knows how to make content and reach more customers so i think it's just a really good business skill just like deck building you know i was thinking about this the other day like one of the biggest things people do all the time is make decks yeah and it's not something you learn at school so so these sorts of things i think are important so yeah i would i would encourage parents i always say this like they're like oh like i'm worried about my kid becoming a creator i'd be like well just help like help them follow their passions and if that means they learn how to edit or they learn how to communicate or they learn how to do anything that's a good thing maybe you don't have to upload all the videos to the wider internet but let them create so i think that's definitely a great thing but if they want to become an influencer to be famous i mean yeah that's not it's not gonna work so let's go all the way back then to you your first very first videos you you didn't do that because you wanted to be famous did you what was your what do you think your motivation was back then i think i wanted to impress the girls in my class yeah to be honest uh so i thought you know i think even back then having people tuning in and like i i remember twitter was really kind of really big okay so what year would this mean let's paint the picture 2009 2010 okay um so you started to see you know having a following was interesting it's what famous people had you know if if you were like trevor noah from south africa for example i was a big fan i am a big fan of his like he had a big following on twitter okay and so just thinking about building a following was like okay that makes you kind of cool yeah um so i probably did it because of that initially and because i wanted to be like the other people i was watching uh who were you watching back then i was watching the shaytards which it was uh there's this guy called shay karl who ended up doing some stuff i don't know exactly what but he's no longer doing much content okay uh but he had like this family vlogging channel which was really interesting just to see a family i was watching this guy called cast mg okay uh who did interviews and there was even this guy called ray william johnson there was fred i didn't watch much of fred but i was inspired by what he did and so yeah i i thought okay if they're doing it like when you're young or maybe it's just me i thought you know the world has to care about what i have to say yeah of course um and they didn't so it you know the first few years was was just kind of a bunch of terrible videos where i would create also some accounts to like my own videos and like comment on my own videos to make it look like I was somewhat successful.

15:10What were you commenting on your own videos? Just like, this is hilarious. Yeah, you're the best, Casper. You look great. I wish I was you. And also just like, you know, liking up those comments and like trying to combat the hate comments that I was getting. Wow, okay. So were you getting hate comments even then? Yeah, because the videos were really bad. Do they still exist on YouTube? I think they're all private, but I can probably find them. So maybe I should have a look. but it's also cringe. But I didn't know. I thought people were just being rude but now I know like in hindsight they were terrible.

15:42I didn't know what content was. Now it comes, not that I'm an incredible content creator but after doing it for 10 years it's like a natural thing and I forget when people come to me and ask for advice on how to make content. Like maybe they are what I was back then and for me I think everyone knows how to make content. I think maybe it has become more normal to understand what good content looks like but back then I had no idea because you went from just watching TV and movies to like this whole new form being created. So you were literally just waffling to the camera. Yeah, like asking what is more painful bathing or showering?

16:18More painful? Yeah, that was I think a question. You're doing both of them wrong. Yeah. Exactly. Okay. But I thought that was interesting. Isn't that a random... No one cares because that's not a thing but that was something in my mind that people wanted to watch. Yeah, okay. I see what you mean. It doesn't actually make any sense. It doesn't make any sense. So what, and you would film yourself in the shower? No, I'd just film myself in the bath. I didn't do the shower a bit because I thought that was a bit hard to kind of do without exposing myself. But even being in a bath, yeah, it's just stupid.

16:50And I'd just literally go to the bath and be like, this is painful. Showering's not that painful. Okay. And that's the video. So kind of silly humor. Just absolutely terrible. And then I would add like an accent. I think when you first hear your voice and you edit your own voice it sounds horrible I think that's pretty universal and then over time you get used to your voice but in the beginning I hated it so much that I had to put on a fake voice it was like hi guys which is even worse than my real voice Fred did like hi it's Fred I created this character and that was I did that for two years no one watched, everyone hated it And then a friend click-bombed my ads, which means they basically clicked on the ads like a hundred times to get me banned from the ad kind of Google program.

17:40Yeah, you can't do that anymore. Google would figure it out and not ban you. But back then it was very primitive. So I got banned and it was like the worst day of my life. But also it forced me to start again. So you had to sell a whole new account. Sell a whole new account. This time I used my real voice. This time I'd learned a little bit about what content was. And then it started to work. So it's cool how sometimes a forced quit can actually make use. I don't think if that happened, I would be here today. No. So tiny things. What was the first video you made that was kind of an inflection point that you remember thinking, this is actually good, this is different, this is new?

18:15There was no kind of one video. There wasn't one that went viral? Yeah, no, I wasn't that kind of creator, really. I was more, I built the channel around personality and over time. and then like there was a kind of a month where i i went to the uk and collaborated with a bunch of people and that's the skill i've always said i have rather than saying i'm like a really talented content creator or whatever i know how to convince other people to do stuff with me in a way that they feel good and i feel good it's like it's like and that's something i've brought into entrepreneurship and investing and and so that was that was in like 2012 13 and so how old would You have been...

18:53I was 18. And you just came over from South Africa to London. Exactly. I was meant to go on a hockey tour, which I got banned from. Why did you get banned? Because I drank alcohol on the previous hockey tour. And it was an international hockey tour. So my parents said, oh, well, you know, you were going to do that. And they should not have banned you. My stepdad was like swearing at the principal. He was like, he had one drink, like, he's 16 or whatever. Or no, actually, I was nearly 18 by that point. So I then never went on the hockey tour. These are, again, tiny little things. that my life would have changed.

19:24I was the goalkeeper, so not good at hockey. It forced me to be the goalkeeper. No, I loved it. I got very seriously into that. But yeah, another tiny thing in my life that probably would have, you know, again, wouldn't probably be here if I didn't drink that beer. So yeah, I came here and then I made videos with these guys called, you know, Jack and Finn Harry. Jack's Gat. Jack's Gat. So it was them and a few others. But then they very quickly actually, I think they really hated the fact that they were seen as these gorgeous twins. And so they very aggressively wanted to push away from that by being taken more seriously and doing more filmmaking.

20:02And they've actually made a documentary recently about that experience. They're very cool. And I think one of them is very environmental. He's done some incredible things with Attenborough. Yeah, exactly. So they were some of your first kind of collaborators. What were you doing when you were just chilling with them hanging? Yeah, they kind of showed me how to put more effort into content. and even though it looked like they were just sitting in front of a camera and they give themselves a hard time for it now because they're like, yeah, it wasn't the kind of stuff we wanted to do. I remember them putting a lot of effort into everything from the lighting to the sound to just the editing and the vibe.

20:34And I was very impressed. So yeah, it was just sitting in front of a camera doing stuff, but there was a lot of thoughts and skill from them. They have great taste. And then eventually it was like I went from interviewing and collaborating with YouTubers to doing it with celebrities. which now is not that interesting. Celebrities always collaborate with content creators today but it was back then really hard to convince them and I did it in a way that made it look like they were my friends or I thought they were my friends. It was like this shtick and I thought that was a natural fun way and that's why I think those videos did so nicely.

21:08And who was that you were getting? Ed Sheeran was one of them? Yeah, so he eventually came on. People from Dwayne Johnson to Justin Timberlake, Kevin Hart. your pitch because obviously we you know we're constantly in touch with publicists and there's a huge machine around these celebrities it's difficult to do it even if you're the the bbc so how do you get in as a 18 19 20 year old kid so it was one like the channel was now getting like millions of views and that was hard for them to to get in other you know interviews if they spent 15 minutes with most uh kind of publications it wasn't getting that reach i think that was the main thing and then i also made it easy because i did it around them doing press junkets fine but i i still wanted it not to look like a press junket so i'd remove that feeling or i'd say can we put in a hotel room that feels like my you know something so you do it in the same hotel maybe they're doing a junket but you do it to make it super convenient mean that they have access to an audience they don't have access to and then after you get the first few then it kind of everyone is happy to do it and what were you like as a young person meeting these incredibly famous people so nervous nervous yeah i i hated it actually like i hated everything about getting ready for it and and then doing it when you say nervous like properly not sleeping out before yeah like sick my stomach and even and like just scared i'm gonna go super red in the face and yeah i i hated all of it until i had the video and then because i could edit the video i could bring down the saturation and like make myself look like I wasn't nervous.

22:45And so, yeah. But they were because people felt that you were at ease, I imagine. People thought you were pretty relaxed and hanging out. That was the funny thing. There's a story, I think Ed Sheeran likes to be around people who are relaxed around him. You would rather be interviewed by someone who isn't treating him like Ed Sheeran. Okay. And I think he saw a video I did with Maisie Williams and that's why he asked to do the video with Maisie Williams. Like she was a friend. And she had to kind of, you know, we get on. And so I wasn't nervous to do that video with her because it was actually filmed in my apartment.

23:15Like we're just hanging out and we got on the camera. So he saw that and then he was like, I want to make a video with you because you seem super chill. And then I was like, oh shit, how am I going to like, now the pressure's on. But actually that one was okay because it was in my apartment and it was a brain freeze challenge, which I even like came up with ways to add challenges or things to just make me feel... The whole purpose was, how can I do this without feeling nervous? Okay, so you don't have to just be yourself. You could... Yeah, do things that are going to give me an opportunity to scream or shout, and then at least I know in the video I can pretend I'm red because of that.

23:52It's that level of trying to come up with ways to solve these tiny issues. And so you mentioned the red in the face thing. Were little things like that really a concern to you? Like you were very nervous about... Yeah, because I had actually an interview where another Game of Thrones star, I remember that interview, I actually went so red, I beat you, and I actually froze. And it got to the point where I didn't even upload the video. Really? I was like, I never want that to happen again. And once something like that happens... When you froze, as in you couldn't think of what to say. Yeah, and it was really embarrassing.

24:25It was weird, because with the Maisie Williams one, she's a friend, you know, she came to the house, there wasn't like a big group around her. But then I did this next interview in like a YouTube studio area, and there were like 15 people in the room. And that's difficult. And I was like, and it's just some days, and it's today as well. I don't mean today. I'm fine today. But there's some days even now when not about content, but just in general, I'll be in meeting rooms or I'll be in situations where for some reason that day I'm not feeling good. You're not on it, yeah. Yeah, I think it's important to talk about because I love hearing that other people also feel that way because I'm sure, especially when you're in your 20s, it's getting better in my 30s.

25:02I'm so much better than it used to be. Yeah. But it's something that everyone experiences and it's something that shouldn't stop you from doing it. If you can still do it and if you go red in the face, I'm sure the person doesn't mind that much. No. Yeah, they don't care. They actually find it enduring sometimes. I think realizing that it's not about you is probably one of the great tricks of life, not just interviewing people. Yeah, and I actually do a lot of interviewing now for people applying for jobs and so on in the companies or even people pitching ideas. And when they do get nervous, I definitely don't see it as a red flag.

25:38I kind of see it like they care more and maybe they're not arrogant. Obviously, you want a level of confidence. You don't want it to make them like so nervous that they forget what they're good at. But yeah, I definitely, yeah, I'm glad I have that myself so I don't look at it like, oh, that doesn't mean they're competent. And I do think it is unfair that so much opportunity within work is based on an interview. Yeah, it's crazy. And when someone's actually working, usually they're at their desk, you know, they're feeling super comfortable, hopefully. And that's when they do their best work. Whereas now that we're forcing them to like perform in a very uncomfortable environment where they're super nervous, like that's a different state of brain power.

26:20I wish we could find a better way to interview people. Absolutely.

26:27Hello, just a quick reminder for me about the Clubhouse membership. are packaged to unlock a whole host of benefits across the world of Gentleman's Journal. At the moment, we're doing 20 % off the usual price for a Gentleman's Journal Clubhouse membership if you enter the code POD20 at thegentlementsjournal.com. Now, back to the podcast. So should we talk about Creative VC? Yeah. Which is another one of your amazing businesses. Yeah, so you started that, when did it start? Two years ago, three years ago? So that was, we raised our first fund just over three years ago. That was$20 million. Yeah, so that was a$20 million fund.

27:04It's called Creative Ventures. And then we've just closed our second fund for$45 million. But before that, we had basically a syndicate where we would invest alongside creators, people kind of in my network, and we'd just invest our own money directly into the businesses. And I did this with Sasha Kolecki, who is a private equity investor. Well, he was now. He's my partner and we do VC. but at the time he was private equity. And before that, he just finished at Harvard and he was at Uber before that. He's also my cousin. Oh, wow. So I'm very lucky. Good cousin. Exactly, good. One of those cousins, you're like, wow, how do you have so much brain power?

27:41And I can't even remember the day. Basically, our thing was providing these companies with access to the creator economy, access to talent, access to understanding social media, which for a consumer company is a very important thing. But we weren't doing it by saying, hey, we want some free equity or we want to do a deal where we're going to ask you to give us discount because you're getting this. We just invested like all other investors at the same valuation and so on. And that's because that gave us access to the best deals. Because the best companies in venture have a bunch of people competing to invest at the valuation they've set.