In short
Martin Kuczmarski discusses building modern hospitality rooted in “old school” elegance, disciplined service, and genuine human connection. He covers his principles after leaving Soho House, his 15-year Soho House growth journey, and how his Dover Street counter and Martino’s restaurants were conceived and launched.
Guest backgrounds
Martin Kuczmarski is a restaurateur and proprietor behind Dover, Dover Street counter and Martino’s in Chelsea. He previously served as CEO of Soho House. He grew up in Biareggio, Tuscany (born in Poland), trained in hotel school, and worked summers in hospitality. He joined Soho House in 2007 (met Nick Jones in 2006) and left end of 2022.
Key claims
Hospitality should be fun but structured; decisions must favor customers and staff; he rejects consulting/advising roles; venues must be beautiful with “substance” (not just aesthetics); leaders must be calm on openings (even if nervous). He says success follows happy customers and staff.
Notable examples
Soho House’s “all-day dining” and home-like design; Dover Street counter’s Italian-American concept (candles, dark bar, vodka martini, double tablecloth, bone china pasta); opening strategy of “open the curtain” quietly; “glass of water” turning red with gradual red wine for service standards; “Difficult name” as a conversation-starting company name.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOThe Story Behind 'Difficult Name'
1:20 to 3:40
Martin shares the story behind naming his hospitality group 'Difficult Name'.
“So when you say well-pronounced, do people often get that wrong, Martin Kuzmarski?”
Principles of a New Venture
3:40 to 10:00
Martin discusses the principles and values he established for his new hospitality venture.
“You know, I had maybe too many glasses of red wine.”
Reflections on Old School Hospitality
10:00 to 12:00
Martin reflects on the changing landscape of hospitality and his desire to bring back traditional elements.
“And my background is very old school, traditional background, you know, from Five Star Hotel to Michelin star and everything else.”
The Early Days at Soho House
12:00 to 14:00
Martin recalls his journey and experiences while starting at Soho House.
“Well, it was really, really amazing because, you know, I joined a long time ago.”
Journey at SoHo House
14:00 to 14:25
Learn about Martin's 15-year journey with SoHo House from its inception.
“So let me try it because it's completely different avenue what I was training and studied.”
Expansion and Growth
14:25 to 15:10
Discover the expansion of SoHo House from a handful of locations to over 40.
“And when I left, you know, considering all the restaurants, you know, the net in London and the members club, there was over 40 properties, you know, all combined.”
Berlin SoHo House Experience
15:10 to 16:46
Hear how Martin and his team approached the opening of the Berlin location.
“You know, we never sat in the boardroom.”
Early Challenges at Electric House
16:46 to 18:32
Martin shares his initial challenges as a general manager at Electric House.
“you know, Nick called me like a week before, I said, look, I have a little challenge at Electric.”
Leadership Style and Partnership
18:32 to 20:34
Explore Martin's leadership style and his partnership with Nick Jones.
“And then when we start expanding in Europe and in States, I become chief operating officer.”
Learning from Mistakes
20:34 to 21:56
Discuss the importance of learning from mistakes in a fast-paced business environment.
“You know, the Polish are quite strong, quite direct, quite super organized.”
Show all 33 chapters
Fast-Paced Lifestyle
21:56 to 24:15
Martin reveals the hectic lifestyle of opening new locations and constant travel.
“You know, every decision we have taken was by passion.”
Building a Family Culture
24:15 to 24:51
Understand how Martin fostered a family-like culture within his team.
“If I do a birthday party or my wedding, they all come to my wedding, whatever.”
Traditional Hospitality Background
24:51 to 26:51
Learn about Martin's traditional hospitality background and early experiences.
“Just on the beard thing, I was listening to an interview with you this morning when you said that in one of your very first jobs in London, the boss would check with a piece of paper whether you were clean shaven or not.”
Growing Up in Tuscany
26:51 to 28:00
Martin shares his childhood experiences growing up in Tuscany and their impact.
“So I grew up in Biareggio on the seaside.”
The Importance of Food and Connection
28:00 to 29:40
Discover the significance of food, drink, and social interactions in personal happiness.
“It's like, ooh, it's rosé time, you know.”
Daily Restaurant Engagement
29:40 to 30:58
Learn about the daily routines and commitments of a restaurateur in maintaining energy and connection.
“But then, you know, the new energy is in your body and people feel that.”
Balancing Leadership and Independence
30:58 to 33:00
Explore the challenge of balancing direct involvement with allowing staff to grow in a restaurant setting.
“I can see the lighting, I can see the music and one night I'll be on the floor.”
Managing Stress During Restaurant Openings
34:01 to 36:28
Discover how to maintain calmness and leadership during the stressful process of opening a restaurant.
“I was at Martina's on Saturday night, as you know.”
The Vision Behind Dover Street
36:28 to 39:41
Understand the motivation and vision that led to the creation of the Dover Street restaurant.
“Well, that's the perception she had anyway.”
Italian-American Cuisine and Culture
39:41 to 42:00
Explore the fusion of Italian-American cuisine and its cultural significance in restaurant offerings.
“house you you know you know and if it's too expensive you go we'll work yeah yeah yeah no i remember i walked in i said i've got it i have to have it okay i have to have it yeah wow Wow.”
The Inspiration Behind Dover Street Counter
42:00 to 43:25
Learn about the aesthetic and design inspiration for Dover Street Counter.
“But also, I love old school, the mafia movies, from Sopranos to Godfather.”
Designing with Uniqueness in Mind
43:26 to 44:55
Discover the importance of unique design elements in restaurants.
“Not cheap, not expensive, just price well.”
Collaborating with Studio Drago
44:56 to 47:31
Hear about the partnership with Studio Drago and its impact on restaurant design.
“And I was in Milan and a very good friend of mine, you know, told me, look, I'm going to show you this design studio because I'm doing my new house and these guys are designing the house for me.”
The Quiet Launch of Dover Street Counter
47:32 to 50:40
Understand the strategy behind launching the restaurant quietly amidst competition.
“And we did Dover Street Counter together.”
Building a Loyal Customer Base
50:41 to 52:14
Learn how customer service and quality lead to a loyal clientele.
“It's going to take longer, but it must be more powerful.”
The Soundtrack of Dover Street Counter
52:15 to 53:21
Explore how the unique playlist enhances the dining experience.
“That's the same because if you have happy customer, happy stuff, money, profit will work out.”
Understanding the Mayfair Customer
53:22 to 56:00
Gain insights into the demographic and preferences of Mayfair's patrons.
“Which is, yeah, which is, the playlist is very distinctive.”
Creating an Accessible Dining Experience in Mayfair
56:00 to 57:50
Learn how the restaurateur aims to create a welcoming atmosphere in a posh area.
“yeah, I wake up in the morning because I work at Armani shop or Prada, the company tells me you have to wear Armani suit, you know, to work.”
Crafting a Unique Menu and Atmosphere
57:50 to 1:01:55
Discover the thought process behind the menu and the ambiance of his restaurant.
“And when we started designing, you know, I said, ooh, this design is really beautiful, but striking and modern.”
Vision for Future Projects
1:01:55 to 1:03:40
Explore his aspirations for future restaurants and hospitality ventures.
“But I remember I met you at the Dover just before it opened and it was still a building site, Dover Street Counter.”
The Changing Landscape of Members Clubs
1:03:40 to 1:10:00
Understand his views on the evolution of members clubs in London.
“And then part B to that question is, would you ever go to a different city, a different country?”
Rethinking Members' Clubs
1:10:00 to 1:11:58
Explore the current state and challenges of members' clubs in hospitality.
“You know, you have to beg somehow to get it.”
Creating a Meaningful Impact
1:11:58 to 1:13:14
Martin discusses his vision for making a difference in the hospitality sector.
“And look, Joe, whenever, I told you at the beginning of this chat, whenever, whenever I do, I want to make a difference.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Hello and welcome to another episode of the Gentleman's Journal podcast. I'm Joe Bulmore. I'm the editor of Gentleman's Journal and I'm joined today by Martin Kuczmarski, the restaurateur and proprietor behind the Dover, Dover Street counter and Martino's in Chelsea and the former CEO of Soho House to talk hospitality in the modern moment and his journey in restaurants.
0:35But before we begin, I'd love to tell you about Gentleman's Journal's Clubhouse. This is our full membership package, which unlocks a whole host of benefits across print and digital, including two magazine issues per year, full access to all our paywalled content, exclusive invites to in-person events, including live panel shows, for example, with some of our podcast guests, and a newsletter in your inbox every single week full of the best stories on Gentleman's Journal. At the moment, we're doing an offer where you can get 20 % off the usual price of the Clubhouse membership using code POD20 at checkout.
1:11So go to Gentleman'sJournal.com and use POD20, that's P-O-D-20 for 20 % off the usual price of a Clubhouse membership. Martin Kuzmaski. Well pronounced, thank you. My friend. How are you? So when you say well-pronounced, do people often get that wrong, Martin Kuzmarski? You got it wrong. Did I? You tell me how to say it. No, no, no, you're right.
1:36Martin Kuczmarski:It's Kuch-Marski. Kuch-Marski. It's actually not that difficult. I mean, if you say... It's not at all difficult. Because you have the C, the Z, all together, the constant. But if you actually, if I say it is Kuch-Marski, it's actually quite easy. But it's Kuch-Marski, yes. which is the birth of your hospitality group difficult name correct and and it's a funny it's a it's a funny story when i when i left so her house um i always knew that i'm gonna be in hospitality again because this is what i love this is what i like this is what i know i don't know anything else you know don't ask me to be a journalist forget it don't know i i i love hospitality and and i knew that i would start again and um so i said you know what i i need to set up my own little company and at saw house because of my last name now i have the nickname mk so i've been known as a mk mk mk mk and because this was this was my new book or new chapter um i said there needs to be a new company.
2:46Martin Kuczmarski:And I spent weeks, weeks, you know, looking at different names. And in the name of the company, I never wanted to add hospitality. Because this is what I do. You know, I said, if you know me, you know me. And so I couldn't find a name. And my wife, Ruby, told me, just call it Martin Kuczmarski Hospitality. I said, no, no one will come. No one will come. And she said, well, call it MK. I said, no, MK was our house. I want to move on. It's a new chapter. It's a new book I'm writing. And I want something new. And I spent weeks, weeks of trying to find new name. What did you have? What names did you go for?
3:30Martin Kuczmarski:Silly names, silly names. You know, like anything that has nothing to do with hospitality. Just cool names. Just random names. But it never sat well in my heart. Yeah. And one night I love glass of wine. You know, I had maybe too many glasses of red wine. Super Tuscan? Super Tuscan indeed. Etina Nello, I think. And I was at home and Ruby came back and she said, you look upset. I said, I am pissed off, you know. Oops, sorry. And she went, why? I said, well, it's a wix and I can't find the name for my company. And Ruby said, well, call it your name? It's Martin Kuchmarski. There's many skis around the world, very famous ones and very good one.
4:16Martin Kuczmarski:That's your name. Nothing to be ashamed of. I said, no. Why? I said, no one can fucking pronounce it. No one can remember it. No one can spell it. And I went and I had a few drinks. It's fucking difficult name. And she went, what did you say? I said, it's a difficult name. Call it. I said, Done. Brilliant. And I called difficult name and now, and, and, and it's people who know me, when I, when I see my company name, it put a smile on the faces and, and that break the ice, you know, I just, I don't want to take myself seriously, you know, hospitality is about fun. Yeah. And, and I just called it difficult name and, and every, you know, every time, you know, if I give my business card or something, it's a difficult name and people said, oh yeah it is difficult actually it's not difficult so this started the conversation that was the name of the company did you know that you you wanted to do a group after seo house did you know it was going to be a company or did you think you just do one site and see how you got no look uh joe i i left the house no i i learned a lot i made a lot of good friends at seo house um i gave a lot um and i was really proud what we have achieved in in that group so i left i took some time off and you know i went kite surfing whenever diving all that stuff by myself and and and i kind of wrote a little contract to myself really yeah i said look how do i start again what are the principles that i want to hold on it you know you physically wrote it down yeah yeah physically little contract and i called contract or closes you know i had four or five closes and one was i said i don't want to work for anyone else okay um and of course we all work for someone else now we have partners we have investors we have partners at home you know those were our bosses um but not as a big corporation not you know not i don't know aman for season six senses or any any big you know corporate big uh groups because a lot of them approach you did yeah they They did.
6:20Martin Kuczmarski:They did. You know, when I left, I had a lot of, you know, quite flattering. Oh, would you join us? I said, look, I've done big company. I've done it from small company to big. I've done it. So that was rule number one. I said, I wanted to join another big corporation. Yeah. Number two, I said, I don't want to be a consultant. You know, I don't want to be consultant or advisor. So I said, not all, but majority of the consultants, they, in my opinion, you know, they go around, they take that finger or that finger, if you're left-handed, they go in the place and say, this is wrong, this is wrong, this is good, this is wrong, wrong, wrong, take the money and they go, you know?
7:00Martin Kuczmarski:And they don't have any ownership or responsibility or even being proud of what they do. And I never wanted to do that. I said, whenever I do, you know, I need to get involved. and be 100 % responsible. If it's great, I'll take the credit. If we make many mistakes, I'll take it on the chin. So I said no to any consultant or advisors. So that was number two. Number three, I said, whenever I do, if it's a small coffee shop in the corner, or a restaurant, or a hotel, or a resort, has to be beautiful. Has to be really beautiful. But beautiful, not just the way it looks. you know, there need to be substance inside.
7:42Martin Kuczmarski:You know, I wanted people walking and feel something in the stomach, feel some goosebumps, you know, from the soul of the place to the design, to the smile of the people we have. I said, has to have substance and have to make a difference to the customer or to our teams. So that was number three. Who else I had? And number four, I would like to work only with people that I genuinely love. And, you know, which is hard. You know, there's a lot of people. And I wanted to make sure that when I go to bed, you know, I go to bed with a smile. When I wake up in the morning, I wake up with a smile. Every day?
8:27Martin Kuczmarski:Is that possible? I think it is. I think it is. I think it's hard, but I think it is possible. you know sometimes when you know someone calls you you know and you see the name oh no i don't want to answer i said i don't want to be in that position i wanted everyone who calls me that i work with oh i'll pick up this phone because that person is a nice kind person yeah um and which is super important because you know the life is very short you know i call it you know we are we own this air from borrowed time and you have to enjoy it enjoying it doesn't mean dancing on the table every night. Enjoyment means being serene, have a smile on your face and do the right thing.
9:07Martin Kuczmarski:So that was kind of my principle or clause number four. And the last one was, you know, I want to give back. You know, I want to give back to people who are in need, but not just financially give back. Because I think often a lot of people are, I support this charity. Fine. But I think there's more than just financial help. You know, you can help someone with your time. You can help someone with your knowledge. You can support someone in the difficult times. And I asked myself, you know, how many bottles of red wine you can have? You know, how many nice watches you can have? And I said to myself, as long, you know, my immediate family is healthy and I have bread and butter to eat it's fun, you know and then I want to help others so those are my kind of five principles and then I come back to London after a few months a few months off I look around what's happening in hospitality but mainly in the cities like Milan, London, Paris LA and I was lucky that I travel a lot and I've seen what's happening.
10:27Martin Kuczmarski:And my background is very old school, traditional background, you know, from Five Star Hotel to Michelin star and everything else. And then I look at hospitality in general. You know, there's a lot of great things happening and amazing operators, amazing owners, amazing chefs. But me coming back from very old, traditional and quite strict background I look at it I said what's happening for hospitality why everyone is trying to reinvent the wheel you know I said what's happening with the tablecloth there's no more tablecloths in the restaurants you know in general yeah so what's happening with a candle on the table with real light not battery operated lamp yeah you know well why are you going to the restaurant and the first thing you notice is dj in the corner and just boom boom boom it's not a nightclub if you want to go to nothing it's a nightclub um you know as soon as you sit down and you order your starters you know a manager will come said joe do you mind to order because i need a table by nine o 'clock you know and and and i said i have to do something about this you know i have to really try to bring the old school hospitality back with modern eyes you know and of we are in 2026 of course there's many things change and evolve but the principle of the old school elegance remind the same and that was that was where the dover was born yeah amazing i want to jump about a little bit where um what was soho house like when you first started working there and and over over quite a short period of time you made it into something with obviously the help of a huge team into something really very different and quite impressive what was that journey like going from, take us back to the first days, I suppose, of Sewer House.
12:17Martin Kuczmarski:Well, it was really, really amazing because, you know, I joined a long time ago. The company was very small. I met Nick, Nick Jones, outside of Sewer House on a social occasion. And I kind of fell in love with his vision. And his vision was always look after the customer, look after members of staff and make every decision in favor of these two groups. And if you make a decision which is good for the customer and is of member or is good for members of staff, the business will follow. And I love his approach to hospitality, but I also loved what he started doing with the design and the approach of being open all day, all day dining.
13:10Martin Kuczmarski:The design was, you know, we are the first one to design bars, hotels, restaurants that they didn't look like restaurants. They look like private homes. They were warm. They were comfortable. You know, we are the first one that, you know, you could eat, you know, scrambled eggs at 11 PM or if you want a burger at nine o 'clock, you have the burger at nine o 'clock because chef has eggs in the kitchen. They can do scrambled eggs at any time. It's not like, woof, it's not on the menu. Well, do you have eggs? Do it. Um, so I was really attracted to that because it was something completely, completely new.
13:42Martin Kuczmarski:Um, but I also knew that I could contribute something because I was coming from really strict background. Right. And so how, you know, at the beginning was all about fun, all about customers and members and needed a little bit of structure at the back. So I said, you know what? I was young. So let me try it because it's completely different avenue what I was training and studied. What year was this then when you first met Nick? This was 2006. Okay. 2006 and 2006 I met Nick I think I joined 2007 and I left in 2022 end of 2022. 15 years. Yeah so 15-16 years. So how many houses were there in 2006?
14:30Well when I joined we had
14:32Martin Kuczmarski:not many we had I can tell you we had the electric house in Portobello we had Sohaus of course we had Bapperton house, High Road house and Shoreditch house was just opening so I was part of the when we joined and New York. So six houses and Chaconis in Mayfair. And when I left, you know, considering all the restaurants, you know, the net in London and the members club, there was over 40 properties, you know, all combined. So huge, huge journey, very inspiring, you know, very entrepreneurial. You know, we never sat in the boardroom. you know we never said oh what should we do we we really make all the decision just by yeah god does it feel good um i remember when when one day um uh someone invited us to to berlin where so has berlin is now and i said look we have this building you know and we think it could be great to be great so house in in germany so me and nick's like okay i haven't been to berlin neither Anik, we took the plane, we went, we stood up outside of the building and Anik is very fast.
15:49Martin Kuczmarski:I said, oh, this is beautiful. So that was the first instinct. This is beautiful. You know, the building looks amazing and has a history behind it and a little depth. And then second thing, let's go on the roof. That was always our second thing. Let's go on the roof. And we went all the way on the roof, you know, scaffolding, not scaffolding, see the view and said okay we should do it and then we work out how to do it because now we are we are like a small startup yeah those we had not much money in the bank and so we had to you know get investors and get other partners to to help us so it was very was very organic and was always because a member of customer asked us to do it we never drove saw house expansion or grow by by sitting in a boardroom.
16:36And you were COO right from the start?
16:38Martin Kuczmarski:No, so I started as a general manager at Electric. Okay. And I will never forget, I remember on the first day, you know, Nick called me like a week before, I said, look, I have a little challenge at Electric. Would you mind to start your role at Electric to fix it? And if you are good, the way you're telling me that you're good, no, you will grow in the company. I said, sure, I was young, ambitious. shoes, why not? I'm going to show you what I can do. And so on day one, I said, let me just check. I wanted to come very early to check the night cleaners. You know, how do they clean the place from the night before?
17:20Martin Kuczmarski:And coming from quite corporate background, you know, I had a suit on, I took my tie off, you know, and I had, you know, brand new black polish shoes and i'll never forget i i i was walking up the staircase um you know the club is on the first floor and every step i took you know what i'm gonna say yeah you look yeah it's like a student nightclub correct yeah from the night before yeah from the night before you know beer when i said oh no and i remember i went on the first floor i called i called ruby uh my wife and I said, I think I've made the biggest mistake in my career. On the first morning you thought that?
18:01Martin Kuczmarski:Yeah, because I was not used to such a messy situation. And coming from a five-star hotel background, you know. And Ruby said, look, you're young. It's your day one. Try it. You know, if you don't like it, you can change and live. And if you can contribute, you can change, you can improve it. You know, you enjoy it. And of course, I stayed for 15 years. But that was my first job. I was the general manager of the electric house. Then I have become director of operations for UK. And then when we start expanding in Europe and in States, I become chief operating officer. So what was the problem he wanted you to fix?
18:44Was it just messiness and sticky floors?
18:46Martin Kuczmarski:Look, in the old days, you know, a house was fun. You know, and you can have, you know, one day fun. You can have every day fun as long the day after you perform, you know, you perform because, you know, if you are not partying the night before and you come for breakfast, you want your scrambled eggs on time with the coffee on time. Yeah. And often there was a little confusion between who is partying and who is customer. Okay. Okay. So a little bit more, a little more of more structure, more discipline. But yeah, and then, yeah, and spent 15 years, you know, along Nick Jones, who is my one of my best friends.
19:28Yeah. I'm so intrigued by it because having known you for a little while now, everything you do is very emotional. As you say, it's from the heart, from the gut. And yet when I think of the traditional COO, you think in your head of people who are very, you know, driven by data and operations and incredibly on it, on the details. Is it possible to be both? It seems like you can hold both in your head.
19:52Martin Kuczmarski:Look, I was lucky enough that, you know, me and Nick work like this. You know, we are really, really attached like this. I have never taken any decision without speaking to Nick. And Nick has never taken any big decision without talking to me. So I spoke to Nick. If I didn't spend time with him physically, I spoke to Nick more than I have spoken to my wife every day. You know, everyone was always, oh, no, no, from small things, you know, how we serve cappuccino to the bigger things, to the new openings. And I think we complement ourselves. You know, I'm half Polish, half Italian. So I have a little bit of structure in my blood, you know.
20:33Martin Kuczmarski:That's the Polish side. And it's correct. It's a good combination. You know, the Polish are quite strong, quite direct, quite super organized. And Italians say, hello, hello. So that was perfect for hospitality. And Nick is very creative. And I always describe, you know, Nick threw a couple of tennis balls and it was my job to catch them and put them in the right place in the right moment. So we are lucky that we kind of, you know, just work together very, very well. And we complemented each other. You know, his strengths were my weaknesses. My strengths were his weaknesses. And so I think that was a perfect, perfect couple to grow that company.
21:14Martin Kuczmarski:Yeah. And when you joined, it was a beloved brand. I mean, I must have been around that age. I was like just 18. And So House kind of loomed large as this, the kind of the final level of London life and success. All the cool kids were going there. My older brothers were going there. And then it grew, you know, over the years into kind of an international touch point. And everyone was copying its look and feel. And, you know, everyone made their homes to look like So House. It was a phenomenon. Were there any mistakes along the way? Do you remember any kind of missteps on that? Quite incredible.
21:46Yeah, look, if you don't make mistakes, you don't learn.
21:50Martin Kuczmarski:And because we are not, we are a very entrepreneurial company driven by, really by passion. You know, every decision we have taken was by passion. It feels good. That was something. It feels good. But sometimes when things feel good, maybe not 100 % correct. So, yeah, we make a lot of mistakes. But we have, if you make a mistake, we try to learn from it. okay let's not repeat that mistake again so any new openings we said okay we make 10 mistakes on the previous mistake let's try not to make them so um but we are learning as we as we go on because we never you know i never done such a thing in my life uh neither nick and um so we are just learning on our on our mistakes so it was tough it was really tough really tough yeah what were toughest times i i think there was one year i think we open we opened six different houses globally plus we did house festival you know for five thousand people in july and i was like okay that in its own is a full-time thing yeah yeah we did five openings i said oh how we can do it and said oh we have the team true but i am control freak and nick was control freak so if you chew the chair or do the food testing i had to be there i had to be on the opening night i had to be there for weeks, you know, to set it up.
23:13Martin Kuczmarski:So, yeah, I think often probably we run too fast. Okay. If I pick up one thing, maybe we're a little bit too fast in doing the things. Yeah. What was your, in that year in particular, were you sleeping well? Like, what was your life like? Were you able to balance it or not really? There was a moment I used to take over 100 flights a year. 100 flights a year so it's two a week two it's like up down up down up down constantly constantly across you know across time yeah you can live me and nick used to go to hong kong for 24 hours so you know uh we used to then on the way back of less than by mumbai and then week after we go to la for the oscar parties and then you know so there was you know the plan is sometimes you wake up that okay on which way is my bathroom because the night before the bathroom was on the right now on the left yeah um yeah so look um we we really were probably super fast uh often maybe too too fast and um but there was a lot of fun really a lot of fun and um and we kind of i was personally driven by adrenaline you know because we we really really loved what i was doing you know i i love the company, the team that we built together, until today, most of them, they're still my very good friends.
24:39Martin Kuczmarski:If I do a birthday party or my wedding, they all come to my wedding, whatever. So it was a family. I know the word could be quite a little bit, ooh, family, but we are family. We are really a family. There was no politics, I must say. we you know if we felt that we have to tell you something we tell you straight on we don't hold it we don't wait for your probation period we just tell you now you know I don't like your beard I love it you've got a lovely beard yourself now thank you it took several hours to groom it yes but yeah but we are very honest we are very transparent and and we are just there's no filter Yeah, that's good.
25:25Martin Kuczmarski:There was no filter. Yeah, I bet. Just on the beard thing, I was listening to an interview with you this morning when you said that in one of your very first jobs in London, the boss would check with a piece of paper whether you were clean shaven or not. Yeah, so coming from a traditional background and when you used to go to work at this Michelin-star restaurant or old school five-star hotel, you know uh your your boss your metroid you know just on the briefing you know you stood and the first thing show me your hand now are your hands clean you know are your nails clean you know really that was that was that was cool and you know they said can you you know your your colors was a close and are your hair cut above the color you know and i didn't have this no this came this is so house time and um and i remember you know this this this this metro d and and our manager you know he had a piece of pepper and you know he was going one by one and just very quietly like so and if he could hear that mean you didn't shave clean enough you know wow there was no wet shave so he'd send you so he would send me i was lucky now that i i i shaved properly whenever but it was like i could see like okay you didn't shave go back and so it was was really precise military operation in on those days i mean it doesn't happen anymore but yeah no no and and i want to go back even further than that so you grew up in tuscany yes which to me just sounds a completely heavenly place and you're on the coast as well yeah in via regio so i was i was born in Poland, um, and my, my parents divorced, my mom moved to Tuscany.
27:12Martin Kuczmarski:So I grew up in Biareggio on the seaside. And then I went to hotel school in, in, in, in Marina di Massa on the seaside. And, and I remember when all my mates and, you know, school, uh, colleagues, you know, used to go to the nightclubs, you know, over the weekend or during the season, I, I worked, you know, I really worked. I, you know, every season from, you know, from June when the school stopped to September, I had the summer, summer jog. So I was, I was hungry to, to, to learn, you know, to learn. So when they were partying, I was ironing tablecloths somewhere. So you didn't go, you must have partied a bit on the beach.
27:51Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I love to go to party. I was going to say, you have to, you have to be in hospitality, surely. You have to. No, no, no.
27:57Martin Kuczmarski:You have to party to understand how to party. Yeah, of course. And how to give good time to people. Oh, yeah, absolutely. But I work first and then I party. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. oh yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah was food very important back then i mean it's yes say that yeah look i i i i love food drink and people you know and um if i go to bed and i've met someone happier i i'm i'm satisfied even now by talking to you know you could kill my eye because i love it because it's you know it's uh this is what i love you know i love uh okay we had a couple of nice days of weather. It's like, ooh, it's rosé time, you know.
28:37Martin Kuczmarski:But, yeah, the food, drink, and being with people is super important for me, yeah. Yeah, of course. And you learned that probably at a young age. Yeah. Yeah. You know, sometimes when, even now, when I go to our restaurant, you know, sometimes, ooh, it's five o 'clock. I'm a bit tired, you know. And so I drive, or let's say I take a taxi, I go to, I don't know, to Dovo, Dovo, Shedekanto, Martino's. And then it's like, oh, my God, okay. do I need to see all these people? And then as soon as the doors open and I'm inside, something clicks with me. And the new energy is inside, the new smile comes out, and I can carry on until, yeah.
29:14Martin Kuczmarski:Until they're closed. I can be closed. All the young kids, they can be, oh, I'm tired, I'll be still around. Isn't that interesting? Yeah. Sometimes on the way to things, you do feel like, oh, I'd rather just be at home. And then when you get there, you're always glad that you're there. Maybe it's just you get the energy from the people. I got, I, exactly. I've got energy from the people and then I give back that energy. You know, so I walk in the room. I said, oh, it feels good. Let's go. And then I start talking to people. I crack the joke with the waiting staff. I go to see the chef. You know, I challenge them.
29:43Martin Kuczmarski:I push them. I'm control freak. So I check all the details. But then, you know, the new energy is in your body and people feel that. People really, in our restaurant, people feel that there's good energy around it. How many nights a week then are you out about and about in your restaurants or in other restaurants? During the week, in our restaurant, every day I'm in our restaurants. You know, there's not one day that I would not touch it. You know, I have to go. Every single one? Every single one. You know, occasionally I might miss one. But normally, like today, I was at, you know, in Sloan Square at Martino's.
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30:22Martin Kuczmarski:after this i'll be in mayfair and tonight i'll be on the floor jumping between the two and on the floor that means that hi how are you you know being with the staff help them and yeah so every day i'll be in one of our restaurants and then you know when we open i'll be you know you saw me on the opening of martino's every every evening i'll be there um when we open and then when i feel that the team is kind of ready to drive that machine by themselves i'll step back and i'll probably I'll come once a week for dinner, um, you know, with my friend Ruby. Um, so I can feel it as a customer. I can, there's the food.
31:03Martin Kuczmarski:I can see the lighting, I can see the music and one night I'll be on the floor. I'll be, I'll be, I'll be slightly older waiter, you know, because. I want to make sure that I, you know, I, I touch the thing. So if I go to a members of staff, if I go to the chef, if I go to a bartender, If I tell them, no, this is not right, you know, it comes from both view, it comes from the customer perspective, because I was there, I had dinner and I observed, but also I see from the operational point of view, you know, if I'm a bartender, how it feels, do I have enough space, do I have enough glasses, do I have eyes, no?
31:38Martin Kuczmarski:So I can correct both. So if I give some feedback that needs to be addressed, because I've done both and I'm still doing, you know, the members of staff is receiving that information very well without saying, without challenging me. So we can't do this. Well, you can. I just did it. I just did it. Exactly. You know, so and a lot of people say lead by example. And I truly do. And probably a little bit too much. And often my team said, OK, can you just go? Can you just leave us alone? And sometimes I feel guilty not to be there. Really? Yeah. I said, oh, I should be there. I should be there. why I'm at home on Friday night, which doesn't happen often.
32:19Martin Kuczmarski:But if I do, I say, ooh, I shouldn't be at home. I should be with other guys on the floor. But if you are there too often, you don't allow them to grow. You don't allow them to make mistakes. You don't allow them to take responsibilities. No, you just keep just babysitting a little bit. So it's a right balance. So sometimes I need to force myself. Martin's time to go. Okay, let them go. Yeah. And do you go to lots of other restaurants? constantly yeah I mean of course no we we open two restaurants in December which is a stupid idea to open two places two places at the same time and and of course that took a lot of my time so in the line of the January February March you know I spent most of the time in in our as soon as I have a little time I go to see because I want to see what what happens I want to see what other people do and the most important I want to learn you know I think by going out in your places and other places you you can't criticize you have to go said oh that's interesting yeah I can learn and you have to be really open-minded so I love going out yeah I always even today I was for lunch somewhere in Chelsea and and the meal was okay but and then something happened I said oh this is very nice and I have found something what was that?
33:38hello and just a quick reminder about the Gentleman's Journal Clubhouse it's our membership package which unlocks a whole host of benefits across the world of Gentleman's Journal including two magazine issues per year full access to all our pay-a-walled content membership invites to exclusive events and a weekly newsletter direct to your inbox enter pod20 at thegentlemansjournal.com to get 20 % off the usual price for a Clubhouse membership I can't say
34:04Martin Kuczmarski:because I'll tell you off. I was at Martina's on Saturday night, as you know. It was lovely. And I spoke to Monica beforehand. Yes. And we were just chatting about you and... But what she said is, you're amazingly calm. Because she was talking about the opening and everything. And then she was saying, you're very, very calm. And you're very calming presence in the room. Which is, I mean, I can see that. She said sometimes you would tell people, if they needed to go stand in the fridge as a joke. Yeah. To cool down when you weren't putting people in the fridge. But it struck me that it must be, there can't be anything more stressful really in the world of business than opening a restaurant on the first few nights.
34:48Do you think you have a kind of disposition that allows you to be unnaturally chilled in those scenarios? No, I think it's a perception.
34:56Martin Kuczmarski:Okay. People think that I'm calm. And probably I'm, you know, when we open Martino's or any opening, even in my previous life, I'm very nervous. I'm very nervous. Yeah, I'm very tense. I'm really tense. I'm very emotionally taken. But because you have the team, you have to, they're nervous. They are maybe a little bit less experienced. Maybe this is their first opening. So as a leader, you have to show them the calm. So often my calmness here is, you know, it's good acting. But behind it, oh, fuck, this is not going to work. This is going to happen, whatever. But, you know, if you are in a position like mine, like a conductor, you know, you have to be calm to direct people in the right way, especially during the opening.
35:48Martin Kuczmarski:But, you know, every opening we've done, I'm super nervous. I'm quite short, you know, because I have no time to explain people how to do it just do it you know this is how it needs to be done um but you know when the doors are open i call a restaurant like theater you're on the stage and everyone looks at you you know everyone from customer to your team members or the way you dress their your body language the way you speak so you you have to all your emotions hide it contain it and and just be calm leader. But I don't consider myself calm. I'm a little bit nutcase. Okay. Well, that's the perception she had anyway.
36:32Martin Kuczmarski:Good. That was good. That's very good. And often if you act calm or act confident or act anyway, your brain starts to think you are. It's quite a good trick. Yeah. So 2022, you leave Sour House, you go paragliding, hang gliding. Yeah. Kitesurfing. Kitesurfing. Kitesurfing. And you make this contract yourself. yourself. How long after that did the site on Dover Street that then became the Dover pop up? And what was it about that in particular you thought, right, this is the first one, this is the this is it? Yeah, well, the I knew the site was already available. And I always love Dover Street. I don't know the name.
37:13Martin Kuczmarski:I love I love that street. I was like, even though it's not the the most glamorous street in Mayfair. I love that street. But also, I used to love Automat. Those used to be original Automat. You know, it was classic, was one of the first kind of this American cool diners. You know, you could eat anything at any time. It was all the brass, it was fantastic. And it had like a 4AM license or something maybe? Yeah, yeah, there was a secret door going down. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and I, when I, when I saw the site for the first time and it's not easy side because it's long and narrow. And of course, and then opens to the, to the dining room.
37:53Martin Kuczmarski:But in my head, I always wanted a bar. I wanted three different aspects to, to your experience when you come as a guest. You know, often, most of the time before you go for dinner, you said, let's go for a drink somewhere. You know, and often said, oh, where should I go for a drink before I go to the restaurant? and i wanted to create everything under one roof so um so that's why i fell in love because in my in my head i had the vision already okay this could be a bar so i can come here for a drink before i go for the dinner then i move to the dining room yeah um but also if i only want to come for a drink i can come for a drink if i go to theater or post theater i can just pop in and have vodka martini martini and mini hot dog um so i think the layout really worked what i wanted in my in in in my head and then it's okay let's let's let's do it let's try it okay and it was really nerve-cracking because no it was my first solo venture uh you know i had not big machine behind me like at the house um everything was my idea i couldn't bounce any ideas with anyone because i wanted to keep everything secret it's like oh actually i was talking to myself in the mirror in the morning that what do you think if you put penna rabbiata on the menu on the menu and so it was really nerve-cracking really nerve-cracking yeah really yeah yeah before it was that wasn't it there was a couple years when it was something else yeah it used to be a restaurant called monks monks yeah which had quite an expensive fit out yeah it was only i think yeah yeah pandemic it was just closed before pandemic or during pandemic and so did you see lots of sites where you offered lots of things no no that was that was the one i sent it this wow this is it you know when you when you buy a home or you rent a home when you go to see the house you you know you know and if it's too expensive you go we'll work yeah yeah yeah no i remember i walked in i said i've got it i have to have it okay i have to have it yeah wow Wow.
39:52And then how long did it take then before you had an idea that fitted that as in the cuisine and the vibe? Was it all pretty much forming?
40:02Martin Kuczmarski:So look, I wanted to do Italian-American, being Italian, and I spent a lot of time in States during my SOHAS time. So from LA to Chicago to New York. and there's a little history on this Italo-American. And Italians, they immigrated from Italy in early 20s to Argentina. I'm not going to say for what reasons. To Brazil, I'm not going to say for what reasons. Wait, what are the reasons? Well, Argentina for fun. Okay. And something maybe illegal. Brazil for girls. and the sun. And they moved to New York to work. And there were a majority of Italians moved to Brooklyn, that part. But they had no money.
41:02Martin Kuczmarski:So when they start cooking Italian food, what their mamas, grandmas used to cook in Italy, they had not enough money to buy a good product and also was scarcity of the good product. so when they do tomato pasta let's say which is the most simple italian dish because the tomato was not the best what they did they keep adding spices so they put you know a little bit of cream maybe they put a little of chili and as i say the the italian food in new york has been pushed a little bit interesting okay you know italian italians pure italians are purists of the product You know, you go to some of the good Italian restaurants and you order mozzarella.
41:45Martin Kuczmarski:It's like mozzarella with a dash of olive oil. This is perfect mozzarella. You know, you take that mozzarella and you put it in 20s in New York. There's many things happening in that mozzarella because it was not the best quality. So they had to hide the quality of this ingredient. But also, I love old school, the mafia movies, from Sopranos to Godfather. There's something, or most recent one, not mafia, but the Mad Men. There's something always quite sexy and quite romantic and quite secretive. It's always dark. you know the the sparkle of the of the candle you know the you know people smoking at the bar and having vodka martini um and i and i couldn't find this in in london and and i i wanted a vodka martini honest i said i want a place where i can go for vodka martini and no one not music playing boom boom boom in my head um then i want to move to the dining room i want the dining room to be lit by candles flickering uh quite dark you know like a soprano that you know don't know what's happening right um I want to have double tablecloth so when you put something there's no noise and it's soft and comfortable and I want a bowl of pasta you know just very simple but I want ball of pasta to be the best quality I want the ball of pasta to be served in a beautiful fine bone China you know silver and and crystal crystal glasses and not to be expensive you know just to have good value for money.
43:26Martin Kuczmarski:Not cheap, not expensive, just price well. So that was kind of the idea in my head. And then the big part was design of the Dover. And if you really look at restaurants around the world and hospitality, there's amazing designers. So I'm not going to criticize any of the designers because I think there are some fantastic designers. But what if you really step back a little bit and you start looking at every restaurant, you'll notice some similarities. You'll notice, oh, I have seen that table somewhere else. I have seen that chair somewhere else. I have seen that lamp somewhere else. Because, you know, you have big studios around the world.
44:08Martin Kuczmarski:They have designed 20 restaurants or whatever. And then someone used to work for that studio. A young guy said, oh, I'm going to open my own studio, you know, design studio. Great, you know. But you have learned the style from that restaurant, you know, from that group. so suddenly you know the chair that has been using in vegas on la is in the same chair that you're having in paris in the latest restaurant and so i look at them i said oh they all look a little bit the same not not on the naked eye but you have to look totally the same and and i challenged myself i said i don't want to work with any designers that i work in the past and I don't want to work with anyone who designed a restaurant or bar before.
44:55Martin Kuczmarski:And I was in, yeah, just to make things very simple. And I was in Milan and a very good friend of mine, you know, told me, look, I'm going to show you this design studio because I'm doing my new house and these guys are designing the house for me. So come with me, just you meet them. That's true. so i went inside and i had the site for the dover already here and i already had the whole vision in my head no no mood balls but i knew i wanted black and white floor i knew i wanted you know wood paneling like river style or orient express in old days um i there's a lot of design feature that i knew in my head but i'm not a designer you know i have very strong views on the design but i'm not a designer i'm not architect so i needed someone professional to help me so i walk in that studio and instantly i look at the studio said oh this is nice studio i said can i see the owners to the reception and the two owners came and i grew up in italy so i said okay some italians will come and then this couple come and she uh funny who is very good friend of mine uh you know they run the studio is called studio drago uh she's norwegian and grow up and live in italy for 20 years let's say and she's married to david who is spanish live in in in milan for the last 20 20 years so already like them because they were not italian and living in italy for 20 years they're designing a place so i said these guys they have brains like more open yeah and I and I stood in the reception I said I love your studio and I said I'm going to ask you a couple of questions and if the answer is no I'm going to offer you something and I'm half Polish she's half Norwegian she's quite direct and she said excuse me who the fuck you are?
46:50Martin Kuczmarski:I said oh no I said you're right so I introduced myself and then I asked I said have you have you designed a restaurant before? and they said not really I said yes have you designed a bar before? Not really. Yes. Have you designed a hotel? Yeah. We did something in Tuscany as more little, little, little, I don't know, 10 bedroom, little thing, but nothing at the scale of proper hospitality. I said, okay, would you like to work with me? And she looked at me and said, you are fucking mad, but yes. And she said like this on, on the instinct day after they were on the plane. I showed them, uh, the side, I explained my vision and they have become from my very dear friends.
47:34Martin Kuczmarski:And we did Dover Street Counter together. And we did Martinez together. And they're really, really talented. And the biggest thing, two things, they don't have no ego. A lot of designers have ego. They try to force you, you need to have that chair. Why? Oh, because I think it's a nice chair. So, no. So the chair needs to be comfortable. That's the first thing. know is it high enough is it wide enough you know is it okay for the table that's the first thing to do in the restaurant not because it's designed by x you know and so they don't have any any any ego and the biggest thing we have very similar style so you know if i if i start a sentence they will finish or if they start the sentence i'll finish the sentence so no you know they are they're brilliant you know they have amazing studio in milan called studio drago uh i'll I would never do any other project without them.
48:29Martin Kuczmarski:Okay. Yeah. I'm quite jealous. They're doing a lot of hospitality now. I said, what are you doing? Why are you doing this hotel there? So I'm quite jealous of you. So I'm trying to sign the contract that you can't do anything else. Okay, good idea. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good idea. But, you know, they're fantastic guys. And you didn't do any real sort of big splash PR when it opened. It was very quietly done. Anyone who's been there knows that there's not really a big sign. Now you've got a little tiny sign. for lunch for lunch for the lunch but mostly it's just a very small thing on the window you could easily walk past that place and not know yeah what was it like on on night one or or even week one on month one i suppose which is more reflective yeah look i there's a lot of restaurants opening in in any city in any especially in london and and i was really thinking how do I how do I launch this restaurant and being myself you know not having a big group big machine behind it and uh a lot of new restaurants up at that time and there was a lot of noise you know a lot of celebrities coming in a lot of paparazzi outside and fireworks and this one one I don't like that style and two I said well I can't compete against them you know I can't I don't have that tools now because I'm alone I don't have those tools to fight against them so I had to make a decision so I'm gonna try to fight against them you know against the noises of other restaurants opening or I do something in the middle and I don't like doing things in the middle get lost oh I don't do nothing okay yeah and I said you know what actually it's quite nice not doing nothing and and I remember I came home and I said to Ruby she asked me how are you gonna open the restaurant?
50:18Martin Kuczmarski:I said, well, I just opened the door. Actually the curtain, you know, we have the curtain. I just opened the curtain. So you walked in that night. Yeah. Here we go. I said, here we go. And she's - But you must've had friends coming over, yeah. No, yeah, yeah. And nobody said, are you sure? I said, no. Really? And I was, I really know on the day I cried, I emotionally cried. I was scared because I said, if I opened that door or that curtain and no one comes, you know i'm in the here you know really you know as a reputation uh personal reputation financial risk um but i promised myself if i look after people the way i want to be look after people will come back you know people they will be my influencers they will be my people who will talk um so we we open the door we we invite uh you know it's lucky now that i know a lot of people you know from my previous work so we invited a lot of people during week one and it was not soft opening because not how we just opened the door and i i said okay come for dinner come for dinner come for dinner and and i said look if we deliver what i want to be delivered which is you know uh very understated elegance well-priced comfortable with beautiful design and and kind and genuine service, people will come back.
51:44Martin Kuczmarski:It's going to take longer, but it must be more powerful. Yeah. And I remember to my team when I was explaining, I said, imagine glass of water. You know, I want that glass of water to become, not soon, but slowly, a glass of red one. So every day we're going to throw one drop of red one until it becomes really, really red. you know and that was our you know our approach for the for the opening and luckily you know we we opened that truth you know has been nearly three years now um you know we full every lunch of a dinner um with with great people you know and i think that's that's the biggest achievement you know you you i think the success of the restaurant are i made a success if you if you have happy customers, happy stuff.
52:36Martin Kuczmarski:That's the same because if you have happy customer, happy stuff, money, profit will work out. And, but we, we have happy customers, happy, happy stuff, uh, financially is performing very, very well. And the most important we have nice people, you know, really nice, nice customers, um, and nice doesn't mean, you know, I am ex celebrity from LA. It's funny, you know, we have them as well. but we have really nice kind people who are kind of outside probably fabric of London entertainment scene yeah yeah I'm just gonna check how we're doing time um we've got time um so so and after that then comes obviously Dover Street counter there's lots of things I could ask you about that but I think the thing that people have picked up on which I love as well is the soundtrack um which Which is, yeah, which is, the playlist is very distinctive.
53:30A lot of places have, I hear the same songs in so many places, very niche sort of songs, but I think they must all have the same general playlist. And then you go into yours and it takes you back to 2002, listening in your brother's car on tinny speakers to some UK garage. And you're like, okay, this is different and it's really fun. It gets you in a completely different mood. Did you almost have the playlist in your head first and then, you know, find the site for it? how important was that to the whole thing good question and and i don't know how that happened
54:03Martin Kuczmarski:on this you know and another thing no no we we we we as a company now as a difficult name no we don't sit around the table and you know do what analysis okay you know what's the next trend what should we do we just we just go with the flow and what feels good so when we are designing dovestite counter and again he dovestite counter was born from opportunity someone someone approached me and said look we have this site which is next door to you would like to do it i went to look at it i said oh no another longer narrow side i said no no no no no and then but i am persistent and ambitious and hard to myself.
54:45Martin Kuczmarski:I said, well, I can make this work. And being at the Dover and spending, you know, because of my first restaurant, I spent every night there. You know, I did my research by observing customer behavior and people on the street, people in Mayfair. And I just look around and I said, okay, Mayfair has changed now. There are some beautiful parts and there are some not so beautiful parts you know there are some enough parts with loud music and skirts up to here and you know big rolexis and yellow lamborghini outside um and then and i and i look at mayfair and i said look there's a lot of actually cool young people working in mayfair yeah not the private equity guys not the hedge funders but especially on Dover Street you have a lot of art galleries and so there are a lot of people who work in these galleries you know who are the galleries who are the receptionists who are the events managers you know behind Dover Street you have Bond Street though there's I don't know 450 shops and all this shop assistant when they finish work where do they go So, and in my head, I was, okay, if I am a shop assistant at Prada, let's say, or Armani, yeah, I wake up in the morning because I work at Armani shop or Prada, the company tells me you have to wear Armani suit, you know, to work.
56:18Martin Kuczmarski:That's your grooming standards. You're selling the suits. You have to wear Armani suit. So they wake up in the morning, somewhere north central London. They put their money suit, they take the tube, they come to Boneship to work. So they spent eight hours selling very expensive items in a very luxurious environment. Come six o 'clock, whenever they finish the shift, they still keep their money suit. They said, oh, six o 'clock, I want to go for a drink. Where'd they go? And they can't go to anywhere in Mayfair because all you have to be a member of some shitty members club, sorry, another members club.
56:56Martin Kuczmarski:or or or any drink is 25 30 pounds for a drink or you've got those really bad pubs yeah they're really yeah that you have to stand on the corner all right mate yeah yeah and so what they do these people they go home take the tube 45 minutes on the tube they go home they take their armani suit off they put in the program and they go to all but one or somewhere else you know and and And I said, how nice, because part of my contract, I want to help people, I want to give people. I said, how nice would it be to do something in Mayfair, which is known as very expensive, posh area of London, that is accessible, that is younger, younger not as an age, younger as an attitude, slightly more modern as a design.
57:44Martin Kuczmarski:because i i don't want to be known as copying paste of of my restaurant so every new restaurant should look different and should feel different and and and the most important was good value for money yeah so anyway so we started the design process um i came up with this idea of this counter you know stainless steel the longest country in the country in stainless steel i was expensive um and you know we started writing the menu and the menu when i i read the menus you know and because i always think from the customer perspective what i would like to eat you know if i finish work at six or quick lunch would i like to eat and if you look at the menu of dover shed counter i call it you know it's a it's a feel-good food or or sophisticated room service menu okay you know you've been in paris a couple of weeks ago a month ago and when you stay in a good hotel and you have a room service menu you don't want to leave because the the menu is like all over the place but it's everything that you want to eat you know you have a bowl of pasta you have your steak you have a burger you have sushi whatever and um i said let's do a good room service menu so we did that so we designed the place we did the menu i said okay music you know because i wanted to be fun i wanted to be a little bit more not here i wanted to give good time to people who work in Mayfair.
59:08Martin Kuczmarski:And when we started designing, you know, I said, ooh, this design is really beautiful, but striking and modern. And I wanted something which is a contrast. I'm a strong believer of high and low. Let's take Dover as an example. If I go back on time and I tell you, Joe, I'm going to open a restaurant in Mayfair called the Dover, It would be a beautiful design, but I will serve penna rabbiata. There will be no oysters on the menu. There will be no yellow tail. There will be no, I don't know, some expensive item. You will laugh at me. I said, what? In Mayfair? You're doing penna rabbiata? And this is what people love.
59:52Martin Kuczmarski:And so that was low as a dish. You know? And then the high was the fine bone china, the tablecloth, the crystal glasses, the design, blah, blah, blah. And Dove Shitkante, I want to do the same. You know, so it was with the contrast. And, you know, I was, I'm old now, you know, the late 90s where my time where I party.
1:00:17Martin Kuczmarski:And, and this music that I love, music that I listen. And I couldn't. So one day I was on Sunday at home and I started going through my phone, all my playlists and suddenly, you know, I had Soul to Soul playing. or uh you know grandmaster flash uh you know proper r b and so from 90s and i closed my eyes i listened i remember it was a grandmaster flash uh or hey dj whatever and then and i closed my eyes and i imagine okay stainless steel counter this food this could work this could work and then so i put the playlist together pumping up the music i closed my eyes i imagine me in the space I said, let's do it.
1:00:58Martin Kuczmarski:Let's do it. And now, and I selected every single song, you know, with the help, you know, with my stepdaughter and my stepdaughter helped me with the playlist. And then we put the playlist and at the beginning, you know, those times there were a lot of songs, you know, using, you know, not very nice words. So we had to find the clean or the radio version. We had to find the clean version, but still the same lyrics, but more clean and more polite. and um and then we spent a lot of money on on the sound system because i i there's a lot of freshmen that have amazing playlists but the sound system is so you you can't hear yourself you have to shout and and you can't hear the music and i wanted both i wanted people to be able to talk because and there's a restaurant and i wanted people said oh i can move my shoulders um so anyway so we we spent a lot of money on the sound system and and now everyone who walks in at dover should counter they said oh i love this music and they feel good already and i think if you if you make the customer happy you feel good within five seconds they enter yeah uh you know you you you start winning and five seconds is quite a lot
1:02:17Martin Kuczmarski:you see you see it's quite quite a lot i had to laugh you know it's quite intimidating five seconds but no five seconds when you open the door you see the reception is that the reception smiles you know you see the lighting are the lighting at the right uh uh level you know you you smell you know do you have nice beautiful scent of candles and you can hear the ice being yeah and i said oh you open the door five seconds i feel good yeah yeah and rest rest of the experience you know it's like a domino it won't be easy but it'd be easier you know i've already put you in a good mood yeah Now I can give you a burger.
1:02:53Martin Kuczmarski:Hopefully the burger is good. Deliver it on time. Well priced. You'll be happy. I call it rule of five seconds. Rule of five seconds. It's very good. But I remember I met you at the Dover just before it opened and it was still a building site, Dover Street Counter. And we walked in and then on your phone, you played me. You started playing a song. You were like, listen to the song as we walked around. And it was genius. And I was like, okay. And there were builders working there at 11. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it was plywood and, you know, a mess. But it was incredible. And I could see it all suddenly starting to form.
1:03:25It's really clever. Really, really lovely way to do it. So before we go, I wonder what's next then. You've mentioned various plans to me over the years. What do you want to do after this? Or is three enough for London? And would you ever go into something completely different, away from hospitality? And then part B to that question is, would you ever go to a different city, a different country? Look, I think the simple answer is probably I don't know.
1:03:57Martin Kuczmarski:But, you know, I don't know about Martino's. I don't know about Doveshett County. They all happen naturally and organically. You know, now being based a little bit in Sloan Square in Chelsea, you know, that part was Mayfair, and then you get kind of Southwest. I see a lot of local people in Chelsea, they don't want to come to my fair, even though it's not that far. They said, oh, do I need to go to my fair or not here to eat something? So maybe I'll do something else in Chelsea, because I think there's great customer base, very good crowd, really nice, nice people. And the offering is not that good, I think, in that area.
1:04:44Martin Kuczmarski:It's quite dated. Yeah. So maybe we do something in Chelsea. I would love to do one day, you know, my version of Claridge's, my version of Connacht. Yeah. I would love to do a proper five star hotel. Okay. Not intimidating, super elegant, you know, big courtyard. That's kind of, it's boiling in my, in my head. I would love to do a resort by the sea. I love water. I love sun and blue sky. Yeah, but look, we are very organic as a company. After this podcast, if I walked out and I see a building, I said, oh, maybe we should do something here. So yes, I would love to do more. I don't want to do too much because I want to do less and better.
1:05:41Martin Kuczmarski:I've done quantity. In my previous life, I've done many big things. And now I want to enjoy my life as well. I love working. I'm a workaholic. But I don't want to expand so much that suddenly I said, oh, I have no time for myself or for my family or for my team. You know, it's super important that, you know, I spend time with the team. And as soon as you start doing, oh, I have 10, 11, 20 restaurants, you know, your time is very limited, you know, to the people that join you to work. And I think it's not fair to them. So is there appetite to open more? Yes. What it be? I've got no idea. Maybe a little coffee shop pronto.
1:06:26Martin Kuczmarski:I don't know. Perfect. I bet everyone asks you if you want to do a members club again, surely. Right. Oh my God. Look, and I could talk about Members Club for a really long, long time. And because again, I'm really passionate and, you know, Members Club were born, you know, during the coffee houses in Britain, you know, in late 1600. And they become tea houses, then they went to India as a gym canas and then, you know, become, you know, gentlemen clubs. Then gentlemen's club become clubs that allow women in New York. That was the first club called 1920 that allow women to come in. And then you go to REC and blah, blah.
1:07:12Martin Kuczmarski:And then Soho House was born. So there's millions of of of of of clubs around the world. But the main the main objective of old school members club in the old days, including Sour House at the beginning, was to have the right people at the right time in the right room. That was always an idea, to curate that room of people who share the same values or similar values. And what has happened, unfortunately, after COVID, it, that objective has changed because a lot of hospitality owners or investors or banks or big corporations said, oh, this is clever model. You know, you got fees coming from membership that will pay my rent or my capex and I'll make money from food and beverage.
1:08:08Martin Kuczmarski:And by saying that, objective has changed. Yeah. Yeah. Because you opened the club today and said, okay, how many members I need to cover my rent? I need a thousand members. okay everyone in come in you know there's no selection there's no uh criteria there is no a specific uh common interest as long as you pay you're in yeah yeah pretty much and and i know there's a lot of members club they they make you feel like i can't get in yes you can get it just know pick up the phone pay and you're in so i i think i think members club uh at the i don't know if it's at the bottom of the development or the other at the peak, I think, you know, the good ones will survive.
1:08:55Martin Kuczmarski:And for me, the good ones, the one who really stick to the idea of creating the same values and have selection and not to be driven by greed and money, you know, because it will it will it will bite you in the house. Yeah. So for that reason, I don't want to do the members club. And at the moment, you know, you never know in life, because if I tell you, Joe, I would like to be a member of the new club, you said, another club. 99 % of people today in London, it's like, oh, another club. And to be a member of the club, I mean, let me start again. London has so many amazing restaurants, really fantastic restaurants.
1:09:41Martin Kuczmarski:You know, you can go out every single night of the year and not go to the same restaurant twice. Easy. You know? So why I call it, you know, to be a member of any club today in London, you get three slaps. You know? Slap number one, you said, oh, please accept me to be a member. You know, you have to beg somehow to get it. That's slap number one. You know, slap number two, oh, I'm on the waiting list. You know, pretending it's a waiting list. you but it's a slap because you wait you know your mates are going to the club i'm not a member you know you have to wait and slap number actually four slap slap number three you you have to pay yeah yeah and that that fee allows you to enter the club oh i'm inside i paid fine and then slap number four is you pay for the coffee probably more than coffee on the street which is worse and so you've got another slab.
1:10:39Martin Kuczmarski:So you have three slabs, you know, or four slabs. And so I don't believe in Members Club today. You know, I think there are some amazing Members Club and I'm members of some of them and I go.
1:10:56Martin Kuczmarski:But something has to change now. There need to be some explosion somewhere just to clean the mess a little bit and the purpose should come back. Members' clubs are to have the right people in the right room at the right time. You know, so you feel safe. You meet people that you like. You enjoy it. And mostly the food and beverage and service is high at a high level. You know, you go today to many of these Members' Club and the food and drink and service is not as good as a restaurant on the street. But a restaurant on the street, I don't have to beg anyone to come in. And I don't have to pay a fee.
1:11:36Martin Kuczmarski:and it's better food, better service. So at the moment, I'm sorry, at the moment, I'm not thinking about Members Club. And, but you never, you never, you never know. No. No. Well, I'm very excited. Definitely not now. Definitely not now. Okay. Very exciting. Well, whatever you do next, it's going to be fun to see. Yeah. Thank you, Martin, for doing this. It's lovely to chat to you properly like this. No, it's nice. It's nice to chat. And look, Joe, whenever, I told you at the beginning of this chat, whenever, whenever I do, I want to make a difference. And it's not self-pleasing, egoistic exercise.
1:12:12Martin Kuczmarski:I want to make sure that the teams that work for us, they go home, say, oh, we're learning something. We are treated well. We are paid well. We're learning something new. That makes me really, really happy. And then on the top of that, if I have customers saying, we had a great time in your places and we love your places, it makes me really, really, really happy. And the last one, if I see people copying us a little bit, you know, oh, New York, Italy is a new trend in London. Fine, great. But that's a compliment, you know, because we are a very small company, but in this micro little segment, we're making a bend in the hospitality.
1:12:57Martin Kuczmarski:We're making a tiny change to make this hospitality sector a little bit nicer, a little bit better, because it's a beautiful sector to work with. Lovely. Beautiful. Anyway. Thank you, Martin. Thank you. Good chat. Good. Thank you very much. Before you go, just a final reminder about the Clubhouse membership, our way to unlock a whole host of benefits across the world of Gentleman's Journal, including two magazine issues delivered to your door each year, full access to all our paywall content, members-only invites to exclusive events, and a weekly newsletter delivered into your inbox every weekend.
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From the publisher
Martin is the founder of The Dover, Dover Street Counter, and Martino's — three of the most beloved and successful new restaurants in London. Here, the former COO of Soho House Group talks about how the first seconds of any restaurant experience are the most important, the problem with members clubs, and the power of the playlist.