Topjaw turns 10: An interview with Jesse Burgess and Will Warr

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0:48So go to Gentleman's Journal.com and use POD20, that's P-O-D-20, for 20 % off the usual price of a Clubhouse membership. Will. Thank you for having us. Hey, bud. Jesse. Reunited. Reunited. Thank you for being here in the Jumeirah Carlton Tower. this is my suite I keep it here do you have to get the ad in was that natural enough did you think that went down okay do you think viewership is going to like I'm going to mention it three more times in the next 45 minutes you see if you can spot them but no I keep this open at all times just in case you guys are in Knightsbridge and want to just hang out is this your house no I expense it it's an empty suite don't really know I'm going with this Not at all So we're here vaguely Because Topjaw's about to turn 10 years old It's already It's already turned 10 years old April of this year And there's a party next week Did you get your invite?

1:52I've RSVP'd And? And the answer is yes And diatriess? No diatriess but one plus one Yet to be decided It'll probably almost certainly be my fiance so um i want that on the record so 10 years i think a lot of people don't realize that top george's been going for 10 years is that fair to say it burst into most of our lives 2022 probably 23 23 which is why we're launching a beer with 40 foot brewery which will mention earlier uh it's not really an ad because all the and it is an ad but all the money goes to street smart which is like a charity that works a lot with hospitality industry and very focused in london um and it's called overnight success cheers to 10 years okay for that very reason because people often call us an overnight success yeah that's been chugging away well we've been working very hard for a very long time but it's nice to get a bit of recognition now yeah quite right they say it takes 10 years to make every overnight success yeah yeah what were your very earliest videos like what was the first one do you remember what that was 2015 that was that was the best burger in london series wow it was an exciting time for you not moved on we haven't moved on but you've yeah but it was we were very much working out at the time you know it was i would yeah i'd be shooting and editing it now we have an amazing team of editors but um yeah we did i think you know there was there was an opportunity for us to create something together and start making films and that is where we that's where we started why did we start on best burger well i think we were both very we really liked the hospitality industry and it was the time when we all actually had finally had like a good phone in our pocket like 2014 was when actually things were like that's a good picture and i've got instagram now rather than like flicker or wherever we had before and i think restaurants have started really leaning into that brand and experiential thing and putting a lot of effort into a menu and the interior design and like trying to stand out rather than it just being Stradas and ZZs and that kind of more Greek and stuff.

4:05And Jesse and I had experience working together in a similar sort of flow. You know, he was presenting something for a brand that we worked with and I was the filmmaker. So we kind of had a little bit of experience doing a sort of similar thing. And we got on very well and we loved hanging out. And we loved, you know, both have, you know, serious amount of drive and passion to sort of fill every waking minute with something in the day. So, you know, when work would finish each day, we'd, yeah, pack up the camera and go and tell some stories. Yeah. What was work then at the time? What were you doing for your living in 2015?

4:40So I was, I was part of a business called Candy Kittens with Ed and Jamie. What was your role there? Oh. Sausage. There was no real roles. It was, yes, that's true. Rock, Adembro. It was very much like we were all mucking in. I mean, because I was there at the start. And so we were just coming up with like what candy caps was going to be. Yeah. At the time, Ed and Jamie had made some T-shirts. But the idea was always to have this confectionery brand. And then Ed has said, oh, hang on. My mate, Will, from university, is moving to London as a filmmaker. setting up a production company and so we can do a little skill swap where he can have some space in our office and he'll make a video for us once a month.

5:31Wow. And then so I would then present the videos with Will and we were like, this is the best thing we do of everything that we do. Okay. And so let's do a YouTube channel, yeah. So does Jamie have equity in Topjaw Incorporated? No. No, he doesn't. He should. No. No. Of course not. Of course not. let's not let's not encourage that so and they were long form videos they were yeah how long how long well i mean still like 10 minutes yeah yeah but shot obviously in very much like you know we were making the films at that time there was i think for us less awareness of like the algorithm and what is required to make a good film that does well and we were it was very much a side hustle and a fashion project and a creative outlet for a filmmaker and i think we you know we were very much just making the films that felt very true to us.

6:23And to some extent, we still do that, but we certainly play to the algorithm more now. Well, it's serious now. Yeah, it's more serious. There's no point going through that work of shooting in a broad film for three days and coming back and not following certain rules that allow it to get more views. For eight years, it was a passion project. It was like a side thing. It wasn't making much money or anything like that. It would wash its face and we were sort of saving a little bit of money. We got paid£3 ,000 to go on the Gumball Rally. Wow. It was actually£5 ,000. It was at£5 ,000. That felt like an enormous amount of money.

7:05Wow. And we drove the Gumball Rally and vlogged every day. We totally overpromised with what we wanted to deliver because we really wanted the gig. Yeah. So we did these video diaries every day. We had an editor in the back of the car editing as we went. Yeah. Wow. We got him like a cat TV tray with like pictures of cats all over them. You know, like a beanbag TV dinner tray. And so he was editing in the back of this BMW M5. Editing? I mean, the acceleration. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The speed you have to go through makes it pretty hard to do any mouse work. How long does the Gumball Rally take? Well, it's 3 ,000 miles and you do it over a week, basically.

7:41So it's like eight days all in. So you're actually, most people just go and drive the rally. But you were driving the rally and filming videos and editing them and then posting them in like the same day. We would never do that ever again. Like even when we did it, we were like, this was fun and all, but like. Oh no, you don't mean, I mean, we would do it again. Oh, we'd do the gumball again, but we wouldn't, we wouldn't ever commit to like doing a video and then getting it out like the same day or the next day. Every day. Ludicrous. That is crazy. I mean, different, I guess, if you're editing on your phone, like doing CapCut or whatever and just splicing something together.

8:13But doing the kind of video that we were trying to do was just way over ambitious. Yeah. and so you came after eight years to a crossroads that sounds very profound yeah you had to decide i guess whether it was going to be a side project or whether it was going to be well it was more dramatic than that it was it was like right this has been a side project for this long do we are we going to like pack it in because it takes up a lot of time will was starting a family or if we're going to carry it on we have to put our all into it because that is it's one or the other we can't carry on as a side project anymore what's it going to be and so we just decided we couldn't possibly pack it in so let's just came reasonably far with it it would feel a real shame to yeah knock on the head but the way that we were operating with freelance editors and the long form films like it it was just so hard to get content out quick enough that we would be having any form like any form of exciting growth so we knew we had to do short form we committed to taking it very seriously and you know building a team um and yeah we have we have done so we've got very talented editors and producer now and we you know it allows you as you can imagine to increase the output and the output with a creative idea increases the sort of growth and the attention on it so it's been really fun couple of years yeah but we're trying to always try and get better and better and better like our content even if you look at our content from the very early best of london's it's like it's so different now and how important was that the sort of format you hit on to the success that gave it a real character real energy as in that the best of london yeah yeah i mean that was yeah the when we when we started doing that and we had 70 000 followers on instagram and we came up with that best of london thing started putting that out and then it was just so transformational i mean i think we doubled our following in the first like month or two um and it was very it was uh this the whole series really hit something the very first one we put out that's the nice thing about social media it doesn't really lie if you've got a good format it will immediately work um and the very first video we put out we'd never get more than say like 20 000 30 000 views on a reel we got over 30 000 views on a reel we're like oh this is really good one and then that first one like blasted to a million and a half that was Don Fernando, was it?

10:36Yes. Yeah. And it did really well on TikTok and Instagram. And we were like, oh, that's kind of cool. Yeah. Yeah. And then we really just rode that wave, you know, and people were really like into it. And the momentum we created was really exciting. And so what is it that it taps into, do you think? What is it in London then or London now, culturally in the air, that people really want to know what these people recommend, what they think? Yeah, it's a funny one. I think it's your choices in those departments, those questions asked, they're almost like a set of tattoos. Like, I feel like there's so many of us in London and actually your preferences, if you cast yourself as anywhere near a foodie or whatever, those little choices in those questions kind of, it's almost part of your identity.

11:32yeah and so then i think it then creates this dinner party chat or whatever when you're in the pub and people will always say to us like oh you know you created a game like chefs in kitchens or whatever they will ask each other the same questions and it becomes and then one year on those your answers might have totally changed like we did it with grace den last christmas and i think we should do it again this christmas and just revisit the same questions because it's so interesting to see how they yeah transform and the i mean the question best restaurant in london is is impossible isn't it yeah it's a stupid question stupid but but the stupidity is the genius in an old way like having to put someone on the spot on that moment that's really what we always want to ask people like in the know what is the best what is ultimately yeah what's your favorite who's your favorite kid and i think we we sort of thought about saying favorite but then actually best is best is even better it's like a bit more obnoxious because it's kind of being like Like it's not my favorite.

12:28This is just the answer. Yeah. It encourages more debate in the comments, doesn't it? Yeah. And I think that's another reason why the series does well is it has all the sort of the recipes for a good viral series. People want to share it with their mates. They want to save it for a rainy day. They want to comment and be, you know, argue. Yeah. Throw some shade in the comments. So it sort of has a little bit of everything that's required for a film like that to sort of boot off. Yeah. And some really boot off where they are a bit controversial or they have more interesting answers. I think we've done a couple of episodes and we've got to be really careful now that we don't hear River Cafe as the opening best, you know, rest.

13:14There's certain things that will probably make people tune off because it's sort of like, oh, I heard these before. You know. Gotta keep it fresh. we still do them because people still want them but we the frequency we were doing like you know putting out one a day yeah but now it's more like you know one a week so yeah so we're maybe not posting all of them now you know they they have to really feel right okay because we don't want to you know we don't want this series to ever stop and i think you know in order to give it longevity it's sort of being a little bit more careful and selective over who and making sure their answers although stephen graham's is quite hilarious i was just in the end of that not a huge amount in London yeah well the part the part two is more in London yeah he's yeah you'll see it it's very entertaining yeah and that's sometimes like lots of people watch them and they just say like they've sort of they've kind of tuned out from the answers now it's more just the but you want to watch Stephen Graham because he's just so engaging yeah yeah yeah yeah so it's interesting you say you don't pull all of them out what's the ingredients of like a killer one and then the other hand what what's the anatomy of a flop so to speak well it's it's difficult i mean i think that the person we interview now has to be like it has to be very interesting and they can't just be um you know another middle-aged white bloke do you know what i mean yeah who's like got a miscellaneous opinion they kind of it sort of has to be someone that's got a lot of personality or they're very opinionated or they're very interesting it's like some of the some of the the interviews that did really well before we would be like i don't even think this is good enough to go out and then they'd smash yeah and it was just it really hard even now even now we still get like we did the compilation of like taking all the best burger yeah answers and i would that was sat in our spreadsheet for so long that link and i was like i don't even want to put it out just feels so like it did so well and you know we it's funny we sometimes do talks how did it do it was currently on 1.1 on tiktok sorry 1.1 million on instagram and something like six seven hundred thousand on tiktok um which for he's the numbers compilation of like you know the burger video um it is it is weird you just yeah like and it's funny we'll go do talks you know seeing as like a bit of an expert in this field and we're like we're not we're we're getting like things disproven to ourselves all the time yeah um but you just got to sort of keep adapting and be on the forefront of it and what about when it when it goes wrong what some people just incredibly stiff or awkward or you just don't get on with them or um no it's not so much that i mean actually some of the some of the really awkward ones that we've been worried to put out then do really well yeah and it's almost like because people are drawn to the yeah maybe the awkwardness appears authentic and that is you know if someone comes on and they're too performative like we had someone come on and had really rehearsed all of their pre-written gags and well yeah and everything all the delivery and it and surprise surprise it didn't particularly resonate because it was like the hell this is yeah it just felt a bit odd yeah yeah gordon's did well though huh gordon's did well though yeah yeah yeah of course but he you know he came in oh i see a little bit rehearsed yeah yeah but you know he comes in all guns blade yeah of course he's a persona full tilt he gave us everything and more it was so good did you see someone commented being like I would watch 18 seasons of this for the Gordon interview and someone else commented had like 100 and 100 likes someone commented saying all I want to see is you two driving an ice cream van around Europe or something it was very bizarre good format huh it's a good format it is a good format I would love to see you both doing a road trip perhaps an ice cream van dispensing Mr.

17:14Whippies and bickering like conjoined twins. Okay. And what about, do some people ever come on and clearly they really don't eat at very good restaurants or really eat out at all and they're just sort of parroting. Do you ever hear just people go, okay. Yeah, sometimes you get offered someone that's really exciting. We're like, oh, I've got a film with them. Yeah. It's coming through some press junket through a film or whatever. Dwayne The Rock Johnson. Yeah. And then, yeah. Oh, he's really, you really offered him? Yeah. I was thinking of a typical press junket offer where you go, oh. River Cafe and Spaghetti House.

17:51Well, they're just not going to. Spaghetti House most overrated. No, no, no, we didn't do the interview. That's very misleading. I was trying to pass that one. No, it was just, it's just that if sometimes they really want to do the best of London format or their management does and we're like, okay, but do they know London? Yeah. And if they're like, yeah. and we're like okay we push again we push again and then it turns out they're like we don't really know london so okay let's not yeah but it's it's mad the people we turned down like uh like heather graham yesterday heather graham was like my like a real child of mine yeah and then you have to be like no because it's not gonna be particularly relevant for our audience i don't think okay um yeah which is a shame there was an amazing do you remember my london in the back of an evening Standard magazine.

18:40Jeff Bridges did it a few years ago, having been to London maybe once. And all his answers were like, I've heard good things about Claridge's. Can't wait to stay there. Like, favourite hotel, favourite restaurant. The grill, Claridge's, pretty good. We actually filmed with Adrian Brody. We literally filmed with Adrian Brody, which was a real fun one. And we were promised that he'd spend months and months in London. Yeah, because he's acted, yeah. We actually made a really funny edit, but his management decided to not let us put it out. Okay. Which is kind of fair enough. But he did say Tesco as one of his answers.

19:15Oh, that's quite fun, isn't it? Exactly. Kind of love that. Tesco meal deal. I don't think they, we saw the, we saw like the amusing, like quite endearing side. They saw the headlines. But yeah, I think they just were like, oh, this isn't really. This isn't on brand for Adrian. Yeah. Which is a shame because that was quite a good clue to get him. Yeah. So what answers then do you hear all the time? I mean, River Cafe seems to come up a huge amount. what's going on with the river cafe that's sort of now just reached like beyond icon status that it's kind of um i feel like river cafe is slightly empty you know where like no one dare say anything bad about it yeah and it is lovely it's you know 38 years ago i think i even said this on that panel thing like because i seeming to always get asked about river cafe but you know it's a real pioneer of like yes it almost made fine casual dining like a thing in london which was awesome but now it's 60 pounds for a plate of pasta yeah it's you know not particularly big one either no you know i always say i think if you're a real committed foodie in london yeah go but equally you could just go have a chocolate nemesis and a coffee and maybe john Malkovich is nearby.

20:29And you're out for 20 quid and it's like you've had a really nice time. And chocolate nemesis is the best thing on the menu. There you go. And so what other answers sort of seem to be coming up more? What's trending at the moment? Oh, trending at the moment. Okay. I feel like you are canaries down the mind of things that are just about to become very, very big and popular. The desperate to try question is always an interesting one. Because sometimes the best restaurant is like you know yeah maybe those like slightly more iconic places or well-known brands but the desperate to try i mean when we first started asking that and everyone was saying mountain mountain mountain mountain because it was just opening up and it was thomas parry and it was like take ages have we no it's literally totally gone it's totally gone but now now the desperate that's not an editorial decision this generally hasn't come up um now um i'm hearing a lot about Alta in Kingly Court I'm hearing a lot about Moi or Moi it's a Japanese restaurant with a French sounding name M-O-I Moi where?

21:35Moi it's like a listening bar which we're having this chat the other day where isn't a listening bar these days? yeah everyone's got a vinyl player in the corner yeah we speak that doesn't you cannot call yourself a listening bar no if like a proper listening bar if you just have a half good sound system and a record player yeah have you been to any good ones in London? good listening bars no but isn't there there's meant to be quite a good one at the place the OWO the Japanese bar really I bet they would do it well I bet they yeah big budget on that yeah but I think a listening bar is like yeah you need to be working in Tokyo for like 30 years with like the exact kind of right words absolutely and baffles we've been spoiled we went to one in Austin and it was like you know just the biggest budget all so beautifully sound insulated did and you know well you're in a speaker that's a real listening bar is when the whole thing has been designed so so yeah you have sound yeah but you are you are within something so this thing was all all curved and oh and will i was like we've never had this like sonic experience yeah no kind of like a list like one of those whispering walls where like you're just engulfed in it you're just engulfed in the sound and it's not like maybe emotional man it was like it's not hugely loud like I mean it is loud but it's you can almost sort of talk to each other it's bizarre but yeah anywhere that just pops up speaks on the shelf speaks on the shelf on a vinyl player yeah with some metallo disco I feel like you're just grabbing your straws yeah of course so talk me through the behind the scenes of of how a video works nowadays do you get do you seek people out the guests or do the guests come to you what's the proportion there um we I mean we get a lot of outreach there's you know there's always a press junket or you know someone a pr representing someone that wants to get them in front of us um which is nice and makes that easy but we're very much like we're very conscious of making sure there's always a good flow and balance of the people that you know they're going on and it's very easy to get very excited to get you know idris and the likes yeah on the channel the whole time uh but it's very important to represent the whole industry as well and make sure we're getting the you know the right chefs and so we are Kayla our producer's got her ear to the ground And is out a lot A lot in the evenings Researching And you know we very much have our ideas As well but to have that flow Coming into the inbox Basically any big name Celeb can come in So is there PR that's approached us to do it Because we would waste a lot of time If we're DMing the likes of Ed Sheeran like come on But chefs wise hospitality invariably it's us out because we're not particularly if you're a chef and you have a lot of money yeah and you can buy a pr company to harass us to get something you're probably not exactly the chef that we want to speak to yeah we want to speak to more like the the you know the people who are properly in it yeah um not the visiting uh multi michelin star chef necessarily they're great every now and again but like really it's better to be you know and and we've we've sort of being criticized for having like the big celebs on um but and i've seen it in comments people being like oh it used to be great when it was chefs and that's just celebs and i replied to it saying that's probably the fact that your algorithm hasn't shown you the five chefs that we've just interviewed but you're being shown exactly this big celeb because people are engaging with it and it's interesting and it pushes out and and also for us it's like in having having a big name uh you know big name celeb or whatever it introduces us to new people um because people will find us through you know yeah okay what does somebody if you feel know really about london but he is also like a big foodie person and we then collab with him that introduces us to a new audience which then pulls more people in which then we can then show them true London and the chefs like Elliot has true dear Camille you know it's all yeah it's just about developing yeah yeah yeah I don't think it's a similar approach to our restaurant studies as well you know we're in amongst these three interviews you know we've know they've helped us get this following you know what we we we really loved in the what we've always done which is like the restaurant studies and going into somewhere and telling the story of a place and getting under the skin and getting in the kitchen and trying the food um but it's a similar kind of approach in that you know we're not it's very easy and we always get offered to come and film at those big fancy restaurants that have big budgets for big pr companies but actually you know there's we have a focus now on you know trying to make sure we're showing of course the whole spectrum and you know profiling the young chefs that are like coming up through and the you know those that are those that are struggling and those that need support if they've got onto or something great, but it's just not quite working.

26:35And the old institutions, the old icons, like the Bar Italia video that we put out on this weekend. You know, and that's, and wonderfully, that like really resonated with people. But all those places, like we need to - Yeah, there's no press hook for Bar Italia really, but it's just amazing. No critics going in and writing the news. So it's very much like, we get excited about doing those and making a difference to those places. we've been turning down Carbone's advances every day have you eaten there yet? no and I probably never will have you eaten in the New York one? no I feel like it's I feel like I will retract that I might eat there at some point out of interest but never to like profile no they don't need our help well exactly and it's like such big budget I mean the Rosewood is is like yeah that room is vast like you know that will soon become a landmark just because of its yeah like opulence but um yeah you don't need us going in there hello and just a quick reminder about the gentleman's journal clubhouse it's our membership package which unlocks a whole host of benefits across the world of gentleman's journal including two magazine issues per year full access to wallopay world content membership invites to exclusive events and a weekly newsletter direct to your inbox enter pod 20 at the gentleman's journal.com to get 20 off the usual price for a clubhouse membership no because it can make a huge huge difference to restaurants are there any kind of stories that have really really surprised you about the impact it's had on on a restaurant success or helped a restaurant that was on its last legs i guess um yeah i mean people sometimes it's hard to quantify things in like numbers i mean dom dom hamdy was a dom yeah brilliant dom was on a podcast he opened a restaurant called canal and westbourne grove you know never it was a brand new building like it had never been a restaurant there's no footfall there's no nothing around there really just on that he calls it like the gritty riviera which is a canal that's just covered in graffiti yeah yeah and um there's the irish pub behind it which is which i've now stumbled because of it which is like kind of amazingly untouched and authentic it's brilliant and also the street outside it is like incredibly badly cobbled yeah yeah it feels like yeah it's a bit of an adventure but no i agree when when he told me he was opening there i sort of thought yeah that's that because it's just over that bridge it's it's it's a it's a tough neck of the woods um yeah because like lots of places change hands around there and the only one that seems to stick it out was the cost of coffee that's like on that on that crossing yeah um but yeah he said that when we went and did a video and put it out i think the day the restaurant opened or something and he got like 800 bookings overnight brilliant we fun we did like a name of clubs video and also yeah and with that dom was like we would never got that many people here that yeah and and that was really like nothing is more rewarding to us than hearing that yeah and we don't get paid by any restaurant we make a real thing about it that never for the 10 plus years of top jaw have we ever got paid by a restaurant or hospitality company to come there and film we just and we decline those offers every single day i have like an email template thank you very much you inquire but we don't really actually engage no no no and do people still knowing that say come on but Every man has his price.

30:13Yes. Carbone? No, no, no. No way, mate. No, no, no. But like, you know, big, big, sometimes big groups like, you know, the all-bar ones or whatever go like, yeah, yeah, yeah. But what if we, what if we make it worth your time? Yeah. What if I buy you? See you later. Yeah. Okay. Well, that's very, very encouraging to hear. But, but yeah. So with someone like Dom, what does he say to you? Thanks. That is like entirely down to you. Does he give you a big hug when he sees you? lovely to hear it when there's a bit of recognition or it gets a shout out in an article because you know some people are vocal about it and want to tell us and others maybe don't tell us and don't want to like necessarily let on that we would like you know a reason which is yeah it's interesting um but yes it's it's really nice there's another story and you'll you'll tell it better than i do but the terra boravan in in in paris it was just like a tiny little neighborhood you know restaurant and we went and featured it and just like just you know see people going afterwards and there's a neighbor that sort of lived in the like the building opposite and he you know he'd literally hear the word top jaw like you know on a daily basis that people you know come there because people from all over the world watching the video okay so it wasn't necessarily just prisons yeah yeah um yeah and they messaged us and they were like they said something like you know two years on and we're still daily having visits from people and it's just you know it's a nice it's a reason to continue it's way more nothing makes me feel better or gives me more goosebumps than like hearing that a place is you know very heavily frequented by people that have seen it on Topjaw and we don't create necessarily this weekend virality and it's got to queue out the door because people are looking where to spend that bit of money that weekend and then never again i feel like so proud of the audience that we've built because they are discerning and and they're going to they're going to stick it out we don't open videos with crazy cheese pools or sat there with a gargantuan amount of food in front of us that because we know that'll get views we know it yeah but that's not the views we want we want people who are properly looking for like where to go and have a really good time and a good meal and and don't spend money at the place that deserve it you can't do that canal you can't sit there and fill a table with food with like all their food because people will be like what is that because generally it's not yeah it's not designed to look like um try and transcribe that by the way yeah sorry you know it's it's it's just very very very good um food and meals that are not necessarily going to be so attention grabbing unless you're in it you know unless you want to sort of listen to what's being said and therefore i think it creates a lot more of a like a a long-standing customer yeah do you think we're kind of over the the peak of the the hype restaurants queuing up for things people queuing basically to show that they've been there and put it on their instagram have we have people now seeing past that i don't know whether we're in that um no i don't think so and i don't think we ever will be i think that like you know that used to be you know they get a great write-up in a in a newspaper or word was spread about something and people would be queuing up for it um but it's a different thing now isn't it because people used to go up because they wanted the experience or the food or maybe the bragging rights now people sort of queue up because one item i don't know a matcha latte has gone viral or a certain slice of pizza that's actually a lasagna or something all i can say is if you if you are looking for that type of thing if you're that type of person then you know you won't find it on top okay there's no point following us for that sort of stuff yeah do people like even like as sorry no please well but yeah and you know i think as our our content has definitely like developed over the last couple of years and we are we are you know everything is becoming there's a bit more depth we're chatting to the owners we're telling the stories better you know i think back in the day jesse and i used to just bundle through restaurants and just film us prattling around and you know in eating the food and there's less of a focus on like you know the sort of review in the food now it's with yeah definitely more of a place of telling definitely you know letting these owners and chefs tell their stories and i think yeah i don't yeah i think that's something we do like you know better i think we do that well and yeah that excites us probably more than i mean you will be able to find if you dig deep enough us going and profiling a freak shaped place in like 2015 okay still out there or a rainbow bagel when that came to london but you know we've moved on from that joke yeah i just imagine someone taking what i've just said and splicing it with that um but equally no one watched those videos so that's fine so there's no queue yeah there's no virality doesn't matter no one watched it because the thing that always really really strikes me about you guys is how how like you're you've got very very deep restaurant knowledge of london in particular the chefs almost like the chefs underneath the chefs underneath the chefs and you really speak to these guys every day what what do you think a lot of us who just eat out restaurants and love restaurants don't know about the industry that you guys get to see it's a very difficult time to be in restaurants for one thing i i'm so fascinated by the people that work in the industry because everything is sort of telling you that it's not a particularly great idea you know it's like yeah we all know that chefs and people work in hospitality are working when the rest of the society is socializing yeah you know and that already is a massive commitment and like sacrifice um but then it's you know it's never been especially the people who then go out and actually open these businesses to run them yeah it has never been harder everything just moves against you like you know with the national insurance like that and the living wages is constantly increasing and it it's just it's just such a daily battle for them um and so i really feel that i just hope that people know how how difficult it is and how how much respect should be given to these places it winds me up no end we'll go and do a video in a restaurant and especially like maybe someone's opened a new one or and I will look at their google reviews quite heavily like I will be monitoring it and I'm so weird um you know it will really wind me up I remember when Josephine opened and yeah and Claude Bozy and and um Lucy Bozy you know they opened this Bouchon in Fulham and one of their first reviews was a one-star review because someone got stuck in the toilet because and and they you know someone came got them out like it was yeah i thought come on you've gone in their first week you don't you don't deserve to give them a one-star review which will have a massive effect because they haven't got many reviews yeah and it's just i think people definitely feel like um everyone's obsessed with like restaurants charging x for bread or did it right and because a lot of things they can't make money on so they might be serving you turbo that they're actually that they're margin on it once you add it all up yeah it's minuscule and so if they're making if they're charging you six quid for sourdough and you're buying it great they're making some margin there um and i also always say we'll roll his eyes but like when you go into a really nice restaurant and you pay a lot of money for a dish like the restaurant looks gorgeous you might be sat in marlborough and whatever and people go oh yeah but it's way cheaper kudu right they're opening beckham they're charging a lot more in marlborough than they were charging in peckham and people are complaining about that you you when you're sat in that restaurant you are effectively paying rent to be sat in somewhere really really gorgeous yeah and i think that people just forget that they go well you know indian food in my head costs this chinese food in my head costs this that's you shouldn't be charging more for it yes they should they deserve to and you know you you hire a meeting room and the floor above it'll cost you 300 pound an hour but you're having a meeting downstairs with your wife very good that's good pitch actually what a meeting with your wife is but that's the thing but then you're paying that money and you're getting fed and everything and it's i think restaurants especially given what depending on what cuisine they do are finding it really hard like people's expectation of how much like we're quite happy to pay 20 odd quid for a plate of pasta but not happy to pay that for the equivalent noodle dish yeah and that is really wrong and i think people's perceptions of like cuisines need to change in terms of a value proposition yeah where you're sat trying to work out why i'm meant to roll my eyes because i because because i've said a few times to people about like my rebuttal to like oh but it's more expensive there you're paying rent yeah yeah you are paying more money to be sat somewhere gorgeous um or to have the level of service that you're getting of course and so knowing everything you guys know it must cross your mind now and again that maybe we could get into this game you you love you love restaurants you know everyone know how hard it is we have a lot of experience i've just said yeah we have a lot of i mean we think we filmed in probably filmed in over 2000 restaurants yeah and we can see how hard it is and we can support from outside so you're not ever tempted for us to get in the game going hey I love giving people advice based on our experience but I'm not giving anybody advice based on my knowledge of a hospitality I think we could probably do something where we curate, we pull our faves together but I wouldn't ever think we want to start something totally fresh no it's it would be totally deluded and quite arrogant of us to go yeah well we've seen all this let's open a restaurant like we've got no idea what it's no no no i'm a terrible cook you know we we have a good marketing arm but there's so much more to it than that yeah but yeah as i will said i think the idea of doing something like a like a timeout market in lisbon like okay doing that something yeah a little timeout market where you kind of we have nothing to do with the actual yeah it's just great people but you know maybe one day okay well that leads me on to one of my last questions then which is yeah what what is coming down the line it seems like you guys could do so many different things with this amazing beast you've created what's top jaw like in in 10 years time another 10 years 20 years because we have we're very lucky uh well great management ymu managers and we have these sort of like annual strategy meetings and you know we meet the broadcast team you know we want to chat about like you know what we could do on tv we could talk about publishing we took all these like possible like routes that we could go and we we just really really love making you know the social content that we're making i think there's a lot more a lot more that we can do in terms of the development of that and the different series ideas and you know um but i think the idea right now of us doing something for broadcast probably isn't quite right i think we both love the sort of creative freedom that we have and that you can kind of come up with an idea on monday you can shoot it on tuesday and you can be live on wednesday evening like it's we're so quick we're so we're so quick we have so much fun doing it and yeah we're still working out what people resonate you know most with and we've offered all these amazing people and we're trying to come up with different serious ideas for sort of any brief you know when someone comes in from the US for a press junket and they're not right for the Best of London interview.

42:18We're trying to come up with a series at the moment where we take them to the pub and there's a chat show involved. Something around British culture. It's funny because I think sometimes people see us now and go cool, well you've done that. It's like no, no, no. We have so much to do. There are so many ideas. We'd love more hours in the day in order to do more. We're growing our team a little bit because we can see you know what would help us perhaps like achieve those goals yeah um and and you know doing it having autonomy and social as will said is that's not the best thing ever but then it's the case of going okay well how do we use this platform to like you know help people more so you know we're working more with street smart we're launching our beer to then help more street smart where we want to do more like you know help help those smaller businesses and just do way more storytelling because recommendations are one thing but actually what's way more interesting to us and i think what's more interesting the audience is like i will has mentioned before but the stories behind these but delving more into yeah so our bar italian reel it's the longest rule we've ever done you might not realize but it's like two minutes 20 and we were told that you had to keep everything under 90 seconds because then it wouldn't get shown to new audiences if it was over or people don't have the attention span or whatever.

43:43We're elongating our reels and people are really enjoying it. So I think, and we want to do more of that storytelling like on YouTube. It's something we haven't cracked, like doing a whole long form YouTube video on Bar Italia. We haven't worked out how to do that. A mini documentary. But that's what we want to do. Yeah, that sounds nice. It sounds nice, but we need people to watch it for it to be sustainable. And so it's a case of going, okay, we need to proper buckle down, buckle down and work out how to do that. Yeah, yeah. Not in terms of like, we can make it, but in terms of like how to play it in the modern moment.

44:20The algorithm, you know, like and how to... Get the retention there and make sure that someone's sticking all the way to the end of that film. Yes. And not... The story arc, you know, not just like telling nice stories. but there's all these like theories and you know, it's so it's, it's ever evolving. And we, you know, we're trying so hard to like understand the landscape and, you know, what, what, what resonates with people, how to get, how to get someone from the start of the film to, to be watching at the end. And that's forever, you know, we'll be on that journey forever. Like the algorithms we change will be our content.

44:52But yeah, I think, I think as, yeah, as Jesse says, that's, it's, it's just, yeah, telling more stories on long form would be my dream I love making the films in short form worlds but nothing's sexier than a proper landscape image of something more cinematic and long form that's like that's where you started filmmaking must acknowledge as well that we call them films a lot but equally they are videos oh interesting distinction I was just with someone the other day and they were waxing lyrical about how people call a TV show a film and they're like they're not films, you can't call them films just in case anyone listening to this being like they're videos, also acknowledge they're videos, they are also films they can be films on YouTube and videos on Instagram they can be films in the same universe they can be videos do you know what I mean?

45:47those are very androgynous terms androgynous? yeah right then last couple of questions what's the best restaurant in London? How often do you get asked that question? It's also going to be my other question. How many times a day? Yeah. Best restaurant in London. Yeah, I get asked quite a lot. Changes all the time. I'm so sorry if you can hear my stuff. No, mate, mine went at the same time. Really? I'm hungry. I should have had a cake. The complimentary Madelines at the Jumeirah Carlton Tower. One more to come. I didn't even notice that one. We filmed in Ibai the other day, which I was a serious fan of.

46:26Bask, is that Bask? basket inspired steakhouse yeah you can put the word basket or anything and i feel very attracted to it yeah it's hearty flamey grilled yeah it does deserve a lot of romantic attention yeah but another one that i really like is camille oh yeah um elliot's getting a lot of air time on our channel at the moment he is he is but it's but it's because it's the one restaurant at the moment i'm i just like i'm thinking about a lot you know and i just like really want to go back it really made an impression on me like i think what he's there aren't many people in london who are doing something truly original people are doing things brilliantly but truly original you know he he is saint john alumni but he's making food with a similar ethos you know whole animal doing things like using like udders and duck wow and all sorts of things but he's making them genuinely delicious it doesn't if anybody is a little bit awful it's probably because at some point in their life they've been served like a liver on a plate or you know a steak and kidney pie when there's not much steak in it you know he does he's using offal but really making it genuinely delicious and brigadiers brigadiers brigadiers is just hard to feel unhappy and it is so good and bb you know chet sharma bb like i feel like he's leveling up every single year like being fortunate i think four times now each time i'm like this is almost a different restaurant It's getting better and better and better.

47:52Will, any others for you, Ibai?

47:58Mate. Attention span of doom. Well, you loved guacamole the other day in Peckham. Oh, yeah. Guacamole is cool. Yeah. No, I think... Cher Thai is one of my favorites in Clapham. I always seem to go back there. Miriam Margulies gave it a little shout out on a podcast many moons ago. And it's very close to me. and it's just a very, very, very deeply authentic Thai restaurant. And yeah, and deserves some love. Wonderful. Well, should we end on a night? You've got to go meet Miles Kane. We do. What's a great ending question?

48:36You asking us? I'm asking you the question. Is there a nice way we can wrap this all up? Most. How did you celebrate 10 years then? And what was the kind of, did you light some? Well, we just haven't. We haven't done enough. So next week is when we blow the doors off. And actually last night I had a horrible set of dreams. All about the party. We should have just done this all about your dreams. People love hearing that kind of thing. But obviously I'm very, I'm obviously quite like concerned and stressed about. Because it's a big party. What are your fears that are going to go wrong? Do you want to lie down on the sofa?

49:13Maybe that no one will turn up. Okay. it could happen yeah or the opposite people will crash it and it'll be like oh my whoa you know which is worse yeah no one's turning up no one's turning up definitely worse or like you know the food not going to plan or i don't know just all sorts of things all sorts of i mean the food it's gonna be so good we've got we've actually we've asked chet sharma from bb florence may Magnonok from Donia and Panadera and Elliot Cunningham from Legom to basically do the food for us which will be fun, they're all doing like three dishes each they'll just then be fired out finger food finger food style there's canapes and then there's we've asked them to really dial it up are you guys going to do a speech?

50:01yeah I'll say a few words, Jesse will probably say more I'd say but you never know my department i'll probably plan my mine you'll probably freestyle yeah oh rap i'm doing a lot of freestyle speech okay really yeah like at the knife edge uh launch party yeah they came up to me and went um jesse gordon wants to speak to you about your speech i had to go speak to gordon ramsey and he was like so this is how i'm going to introduce you this this this this no hand the mic to you that okay and i was like gordon okay hadn't prepared a speech so i just had to like free ball it yeah it's like 400 people how was that yeah it was all right i mean i listened to some of it back because people kept posting their instagram stories and i thought oh i wouldn't have said that but whatever um but we've got the wrap party tonight for knife edge and so i think i've got to do the same thing okay are you getting lit uh i'm gonna pump the brakes yeah we've got a big day tomorrow 10 pints we've got 10 pubs 10 pubs tomorrow we won't we won't bring the beer into conversation again but um overnight success available in all good pubs off of november 3rd we're doing a top draw pub crawl and we're going to try and encourage people to do the same okay encouraging like the bermondsey beer mile but it doesn't have a name yet but the top job more logistics involved okay glorious will jesse top jaw congratulations on 10 years thanks for doing this and uh yeah thank you very much i've thoroughly enjoyed this and thanks gentleman's journal and any avid readers of the journal would also be very interested in my column that i write yes sometimes absolutely they will be so subscribe to gentleman's journal for more of this if this has been okay wonderful thank you before you go just a final reminder about the clubhouse membership our way to unlock a whole host of benefits across the world of gentleman's journal including two magazine issues delivered to your door each year, full access to all our paywall content, members-only invites to exclusive events, and a weekly newsletter delivered into your inbox every weekend.

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