660: So This Is Goodbye

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1:37It's literally the only place you need to shop from. That's revolve.com forward slash gold digger to shop my favorites and get 15 % off your first order with the code gold digger. Offer available for a limited time. So happy shopping. I'm just grateful that you allowed this to develop on the side and you didn't hold me back in this dream that I had, you know, because it did ultimately lead to me leaving. But you never once made me feel like I couldn't do it. Hey, my name is Jenna Kutcher, and I am obsessed with all things business, marketing numbers, and helping you to navigate both the messy and the magical seasons of this thing called life.

2:16I'm a small town mama who took a$300 camera, grew a successful photo biz, and now I work from home and run a seven figure online business. I teach you the tried and true secrets to building a career you adore. Shy away from the real talk? No way. Money, hardship, growth, loss, and marketing are all topics we discuss here. Think of this as your one-stop shop for happy hour with a gal pal mixed with business school. Pull up a seat, make sure you're cozy, and get ready to be challenged and encouraged while you learn. This is the Gold Digger Podcast. Let me introduce you to a podcast you're going to love.

2:49It's called The Shine Online, and it's hosted by a former Gold Digger guest, Natasha Samuel, and brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. Natasha interviews the brightest entrepreneurs to bring you no fluff advice, honest discussions about the mental health and lifestyle aspect of entrepreneurship and actionable strategies and success stories of those who have mastered the art of shining online. Natasha just covered this topic I think you'd love to hear about. She talks about when you're ready to hire a social media manager and when you're not.

3:22Because hiring a social media manager isn't going to fix your social media problem if you're not ready and willing to show up and do the work too. Listen to The Shine Online wherever you get your podcasts. I mean, sometimes you have to have conversations that you don't necessarily want to have. And I'm not going to lie. When I saw what I was going to be talking about today, my heart sank and I hit slack to my girl, Kylie. And I said, I'm always going to blame hormones for the rest of my life. And I mean, I don't need to blame hormones for my emotions. Kylie, why are we talking today? Because Jenna, the time of Kylie on the Gold Digger podcast, working behind the podcast that has gone up to, you know, number one on the marketing charts, this amazing thing that you've built and that you've let me usher along for the last four years, my time's coming to an end.

4:21It's bananas. Today, we are going to talk about our journey together, all the things that we've learned, what it really feels like to move on, what Kylie is excitedly moving on towards, and everything in between. And, you know, we might need to grab Kleenexes for this one. Hopefully not too, too many. Let's do it. All right. So first, walk me through, let's kind of talk about our journey together as we got started and kind of how it began. I will never forget when you came to Duluth, Minnesota, meeting you at the Caribou Coffee and the hiring process where I was about to go on to maternity leave.

5:06And my sister, who had previously held your position while she was kind of in between careers, was now entering school. And so we had kind of hit this pivotal place of like, all right, well, we've got to make a change. And I remember interviewing you and just being so excited about you. And I remember your mom being like, so wait, you're flying to Duluth, Minnesota. You've never met this person. Are you sure you're not getting kidnapped? Yes. She was very skeptical of this whole thing as I'm sure is totally relatable to you. Like the online space just was so foreign to my mom. She couldn't understand.

5:39Are you sure this is a job? What do you mean? So yeah, I mean, I applied for the job. I remember someone, I think from your hometown or someone you knew from Wisconsin was my hairstylist at the time, or had been my hairstylist in the past. And she's like, Hey, I saw this Instagram story about a job that I think you might be great at. And she just shot it my way. And I applied. And then four days later, I had a job. And it was a really crazy time in my life, because I had been living in New York City with my now husband, Chris, and we had moved there for his job. And I had left a job that was pretty damn near close a dream job for me, I left it so we could pursue his dreams in the big city.

6:18And so I had been unemployed for nine months and having all these identity issues wrapped up in, OK, what's my worth if I'm not working? And what's my next step going to be having, you know, radio experience and marketing experience? And I just didn't know what my next step was was going to look like. And then enter the Gold Digger podcast. And it's really become, I think, the biggest launchpad for me into what what I know now I'm meant to do, which is be in the podcasting and audio storytelling space. So it really launched a lot for me, that one little LinkedIn post. Crazy. I mean, it is wild to think about like the journey.

6:58And I mean, a lot of times too, when we take on new roles or when we learn new skills, it's really hard to connect the dots of like, how is this going to move me forward? Or what does this even look like? Or what is this all for? And it's kind of this beautiful full circle moment that is happening in so many ways. let's talk about kind of putting in your notice what that looks like what that's been like you share your side and then I'll share my side because I actually think it's been a really beautiful process in my opinion yes however I was I was really scared to tell you I mean I've never quit a job because I hated the job yeah I've always I've left you don't hate this job I don't No, no, no.

7:48I say that my track record continues with this. I'm not leaving because I didn't like it or because it was, you know, some people will experience a toxic workplace environment or it's just not aligned with their skills and the opportunity dissolves in that way. But for me, it was every time I've left a position, it's because I knew it was time to take a step in the direction of my ultimate dream. And so I just, even though I'd been playing with the idea, you know I thought could I do it should I do it is now the time to do it I really wasn't confident in the fact that I was going to give my notice to you until really like the 24 hours before I did it and I had only really been seriously considering it for about a week and so when I told you that day and we had been recording a Kylie and Jenna episode just like this and you had like two minutes to chat after and I was just like if I don't say it right now it's going to fester inside of me.

8:43And I'm not, I won't get it out. And so I told you I was leaving. When I say it was hard, it's because this job, this show, it does mean a lot to me. And I've put a lot of work into it. And we put a lot of work into it together. And so stepping away from it was really scary. And like my heart was pounding through my chest. And I was like, and you know, why was I scared? Were you going to flip out at me and have this like terrible, negative, angry reaction? I don't know why I ever thought that was a possibility because that would be so like departed from who you are and what this relationship has been like as far as boss, employee and friend.

9:19But yeah, it was scary. It was really scary to give my notes. What did I say to you when you told me? Like, what was that experience? Like, do you even remember? Did you black out? I blacked out because in that moment I was like, oh my God, I just said it. Like, I can't unsay it. But I think you said, you said, I think that's beautiful. I'm excited for you. And I'm not surprise. Like I got you like this, you know, it's, it's super interesting part of being a boss and part of two, even when I look at like writing my book and stuff, like a lot of it is listening to your gut and listening to your heart.

9:52And I feel like I've been listening to your heart as your boss and in touch with your goals and your dreams. And I feel like I've bought into the vision that you've probably been selling yourself at two in the morning when you're anxious and wondering what the heck am I even thinking? But when I say that I like feel tethered to you because of the proximity we've worked in, in the life that we've been through, when you told me, I was like, heck yes, this is great. I was like, do not worry. We've got this. We will figure this out and you're going to be great. It's going to be amazing. And I believe that.

10:30And it's interesting because I mean, let's talk about this. I've known that this day would come. And I feel like part of one of my gifts, maybe, I don't know, it's weird to say, but I feel like I'm very intuitive. And even when I hired you nearly four and a half years ago, I'll never forget saying this to you, but I was like, you're going to leave me someday. You're not like this position is amazing for you. And you were so freaking good at it, but it wasn't meant for you forever. And I think it's very rare to find people and get them into positions where you envision like this is it, right? Like I just, I don't know if that exists.

11:10I don't know if that's us being millennials. I don't know. But especially with you, I always felt this entrepreneurial spirit, this spirit of like having these bigger visions. And I, as a boss, hopefully did a good job of allowing you to like foster those and like not shut them down and like explore them. Well, one of the things I asked you during the interview process, which was quite speedy, as is all everything Jedda Kutcher does when she hires. One of the things I asked you was, do you have any reservations about me continuing to pursue creative endeavors on the side or having a side hustle?

11:49Because I had been through interview processes. Like I said, I had been unemployed for nine months, I had been going through interview processes and almost every single one, even though it was a creative role that I would be landing in, they wanted me to put the kibosh on every single creative thing I had going independently. They didn't want me to have my own thing. They didn't want me to have a side hustle. And that was a deal breaker for me, because how can you, as a creative person, give all your energy and effort to a dream that's not yours and still feel satisfied. And so it was so important for me to be able to pursue these things.

12:25And I didn't for a while. I didn't have any side hustles when I first started with you. I just, I wanted to know that I could if I ever wanted to. And I didn't start exploring it until about a year in. And you've always been supportive of that. And I think we've had some episodes and conversations on the show about how that's really unique. And it's unique within the industry you exist in. Because I know a lot of similar people in your field in this space also put those limitations on the people they hire. So it's interesting because even in conversations like, oh my gosh, like we're hiring and this is like a big deal.

13:01But like, I've had peers be like, yeah, well, you shouldn't like, and I'm like, no, no, no. Like, I believe in like, we are all like multi-passionate creative beings. I really believe that. And I think that like creativity breeds creativity and I will always believe that. And I don't look at this as a loss. I mean, it is a loss on a lot of levels, but I like look at this as just like an extension of like where we're going together. And I don't know, I feel a lot of peace with it. Like when you told me, there was a moment that my heart like sank. And then it was like, then I went into like logistical mode of like, okay, what does this look like?

13:43And then I was like, the undercurrent of all of this is peace because I want to see someone that I love going for it. And I want to help however I can. And I also want to get somebody in the position who is like fully devoted to this thing in terms of like what that looks like. Like it's all, it's all good. And I think that a lot of times we look at these situations, especially if you are someone who employs people and it's easy to be like frustrated or disgruntled or upset or whatever. And it's like, if you truly like love your people, like you can't say that you treat your team like family and then not get excited when your family is like succeeding.

14:25Right. And so for me, I'm just like, okay, I'm separating like the boss and the logistics side of this. And like right now I am a friend who is like freaking rooting Kylie on, on this next chapter. And that's the role that I get to play, which is honestly really exciting for me. I mean, I'm so excited. You know, you know, the inner workings of the last year of my life and the events that altered my brain chemistry and just put me in a place where if I could only choose one thing to pursue moving forward, it has to be my dreams now. Like I have to bet on myself. I think I said that when I gave my notice, it's time for me to bet on myself.

15:07And I'm just grateful that you allowed this to develop on the side. And you didn't hold me back in this dream that I had, you know, because it did ultimately lead to me leaving. But you never once made me feel like I couldn't do it. Well, you know what? I've been prepping for the last four years for you to leave.

15:29Let's talk about this though, because I do something that I think has been really interesting, even in the process of trying to hire your replacement is kind of recognizing that there is a different energy in terms of people who are incredible and deeply desiring this employee place and people who have that more entrepreneurial spirit. And I feel like, you know, over the years, especially doing what I do and teaching the way I teach, I can sense that entrepreneurial spirit. And it's like this little flame that like you never want to put out in someone. And I can also say like on our team, I have people that will deeply desire and feel fulfilled being an employee for the rest of their lives.

16:07And I think the world needs both of those people, right? I think that's an area that maybe I got wrong in the past because I just wanted to sell entrepreneurship to everyone because it's something that has just benefited my life in 8 million ways. But I've also really come to realize there's so much power in people that are incredible employees. And I feel like you've always had that spark. And I love that about you. Yeah, when I got honest with myself about what I really wanted, you know, you talk a lot about our own definition of success and what feels like to arrive and when do you feel like you've arrived?

16:43And in all honesty, I will never feel fulfilled as a supporting act. And I've been a really great one. It's something I'm so good at. Like I can confidently say I rocked this position for the last four, almost five years, but I'm never going to feel truly in my power, in my purpose, like I'm doing my life's work unless less I'm working on my own project. And I don't think there's any, you know, my dream of being the visionary and the storyteller and having my own show and all that, that doesn't, it's not any better than someone who wants to be an employee. Like you said, it's just, I know in my heart of hearts that my arrival will come when I'm working on my own thing.

17:28And I've tried to avoid it. You You know what I mean? Like I've tried to avoid entrepreneurship because it's not a guarantee. And it is scary as heck to think that I am now going to be responsible for my own income, my own security. There's not going to be a maternity leave. Like there's not going to be that cushion moving forward that I had as an employee. but I know that this was the time for me to bet on myself and to dive in and to stop trying to get away from what was always meant for me. And that is working on my own. AI is such a hot topic right now, but how can you really use it in your business in a way that moves the needle?

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20:13Look, I've become kind of a systems nerd and anything that gives me more space in my day, I'm all in. And a reliable connection is a huge part of that because when the internet lags or cuts out, everything pauses and suddenly the simplest tasks take forever. I learned really early on that dependable internet, it's not a luxury, it is a must. Whether you're a content creator like me, a restaurant owner, or running a busy dry cleaning business, you need that steady connection to support your team and your clients. That's why I'm excited to share a solution for my fellow business owners. Spectrum Business keeps businesses of all types connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, and mobile services, all with connectivity solutions built for your budget.

20:56And they have a truly incredible offer. Business owners can get free business internet advantage forever when you add four or more mobile lines. It's simple with no contracts and no added fees. Visit spectrum.com forward slash free for life to learn how you can get business internet free forever. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. It's kind of crazy, but I like, even in this conversation, I remember those feelings of like, it's like a freaking roller coaster where you're like, I mean, this is going to be amazing. It's all going to work out. And then like the next 10 minutes, it's like, what about a 401k?

21:34And what happens if the, you know, like your brain like spirals and it's this like beautiful tumultuous time. But I can also say too, and I've said this to so many people I love that have had, you know, successful side hustles or they have this vision or they have this plan. It's like, when you go all in and you get to see the direct results that your hard work creates, It is addicting in a beautiful way that gives you something that collecting a paycheck will never give you. Because I think there is something so cool, at least for myself, in that like, I am in control of direct results, which is not always possible when you're an employee.

22:17Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah, no, totally. I mean, it's everything. about like the logistical side of this because you know there's a lot of life happening behind the scenes on top of the work so you know I believe there are two types of people it's like jump in the net will appear or there are people who I err on this side let me weave the net and cross stitch it into place before I make the leap where did you land on this okay I can honestly say that I was more emotionally ready to leap like I had an emotional net But as far as the other net, the logistics, that is still being woven as I free fall towards my end date, to be honest.

22:57You know, there's there's opportunities. Obviously, you know, I've been working really hard on my podcast. Here comes the plug. It's called Dark Down East. It's a true crime show dedicated to stories from my home state and Maine and New England. And I've been working on it since December of 2020. It's been this little side project, this passion project that's taken on a life of its own. And so it's not like I've had overnight success that has led me to say, peace out, Jenna, here I go out on my own. But I have like the emotional readiness and just like this vision of what's possible if I am able to give all my time to it.

23:33And I knew that I couldn't get it to where it is self-sustaining and it is my sole source of income until I had all of my hours to pour into it. And so I'm building the net as I free fall. I know I'll land in that net, but it wasn't fully built before I jumped, before I gave my notice. But that was the only way it was possible for me. You know, I would get so frustrated looking at my idealist, you know, my brain dump of all these things I wanted to do and knowing like, OK, but you don't have time. You have a six month old baby. You have a husband. You have to take care of yourself. And you have a day job, which had responsibilities that I absolutely needed to fulfill.

24:17And so I just knew that I had to give myself the time to make this what I know it could be. And so quitting came first for me, which I know is not a privilege or a reality for a lot of people, but that's how it worked for me. Yeah. Well, and I love that. I mean, I think it's important to show both sides of the coin and to really look at it. And I do think there are some dreams that can be built, you know, burning the midnight oil. And there are some dreams that require full attention and full focus to really make a reality. And that's a risk, but it's also the reward. And I think that that's a really powerful thing to look at it.

24:56You know, to steal some words from your story, what's the worst that could happen? OK, my show tanks. I don't make enough money. So I get another job. Yeah. Like that end is not scary to me. And it's not a failure. It's not a failure. like I just come knocking on Jenna's door again like please give me a VA position like help me buy groceries but but in in reality that wasn't that scary to me I finally got to the point where it didn't freak me out like the benefits far outweighed the the risks there I feel like I did this exercise that I tell people to do if they're kind of in that position where you write like if then statements and you write down your worst fears like the fears that you won't tell anyone when you're thinking about making this leap.

25:42Like if, if this fails miserably, then I will update my resume and get myself back out on the market. If I am not able to make enough income, I will use my other marketable skills as a side hustle. Like, you know, it's just like, if you can actually create an action plan, 99.9 % of the things that you are imagining as the if statements will likely never happen. But if they do, you have a plan. And it's suddenly it's like fear kind of loses its grip when you have an action plan in place. Yes, I agree. And also, my fears became less about will I make enough money and more about what if I never take a chance on this?