770: Why We Secretly Love Hard Conversations in Our Biz

0:01Okay, I have been on this ruthless pursuit to purge any clothes that I'm not actually wearing. Like if I haven't reached for it in months, it's got to go. I am trying to be really intentional about what I bring into my closet right now, which means I am only buying pieces that I know I will actually wear and use. Revolve just gets it though. I'm literally wearing my brown Autry sneakers from there right now and my new suede purse. It fits my laptop in it. So it's basically a fancy shoulder bag that works for everything. I love finding pieces like that. Things that look good, but also work hard for my actual life.

0:35Their holiday shop is live right now with all the good stuff. Sparkly party dresses, cozy sets, cute gifts, everything you need for whatever is on your calendar. And it's all in one place, which makes shopping feel way less overwhelming. Whether it's a weekend away, a big night out or a holiday party, your dream wardrobe is just one click away. Head to revolve.com forward slash gold digger, shop my edit and take 15 % off your first order with the code gold digger. Fast two day shipping, easy returns. it's literally the only place you need to shop from. That's revolve.com forward slash gold digger to shop by favorites and get 15 % off your first order with the code gold digger offer available for a limited time.

1:15So happy shopping. So I think too, with having these conversations and even if they don't go well, and you do decide to exit the company you're at, you have the ability to still inspire and impact people to also stand in their tree. Hey, my name is Jenna Kutcher and I am obsessed with all things business, marketing numbers, and helping you to navigate both the messy and the magical seasons of this thing called life. I'm a small town mama who took a$300 camera, grew a successful photo biz, and now I work from home and run a seven figure online business. I teach you the tried and true secrets to building a career you adore.

1:52Shy away from the real talk? No way. Money, hardship, growth, loss, and marketing are all topics we discuss here. Think of this as your one-stop shop for happy hour with a gal pal mixed with business school. Pull up a seat, make sure you're cozy and get ready to be challenged and encouraged while you learn. This is the Gold Digger Podcast. Finding a service solution that helps you better connect with customers and keep them happy can feel impossible. Like trying to remember the name of that girl you just met at a networking event. Was it Mia? Or Leah? Or could it be Sophia? Yeah, that kind of impossible.

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3:06Visit HubSpot.com slash service to do more for your customers today. That's HubSpot.com slash service. Did you know that by the start of 2024, 53 % of surveyed employees say that they're likely to leave their current company. And with that, 77 % of surveyed employers struggled to fill open positions. So with that being said, why would we not be looking for ways that we can refine our company culture to maintain and attract top client? Today, I am bringing on my business bestie, my right hand girl, and we're going to talk about the reality of transparency in business, where it is welcomed, where it shouldn't happen.

3:51And if you are someone who wants to keep and maintain the talent that you have on your team, this has to be something you're thinking about. And I'm so excited about this conversation because we have both experienced work cultures where we felt like we couldn't say a darn thing into a new way of doing business and essentially doing life together. And so I feel like this is going to be a very powerful conversation and hopefully help you think about transparency, not just in work, but in life, in relationships, and with the people that you are navigating it all through. So are you ready to dive in?

4:29Let's get into it. All right. So you actually helped me come up with this topic idea. And I'm so curious why you thought this would be such a powerful conversation. Because the minute you said it, I was like, yes, let's talk about this. So as you said, too, I feel like so much in career paths, we find ourselves in positions where we want more, or we want something different. And we feel as if we're not able to truly have those transparent conversations. And so something that has been so beautiful about our path together for the last almost five years, is that we've had a variety of points in our journey where we've had to have very open conversations around, especially my career trajectory and like points of the seasons of where I was and how that would impact the work I wanted to then do.

5:24And so I just think it's such an incredible topic because transparency is not a buzzword, right? Like in my opinion, this is something that needs to be happening in all organizations. And as you said, in life, so transferable to both. But I think to just the way in which we've been able to conduct that has been a reason, you know, amongst a variety of others, why I am still here today after almost five years. And so I want to share a little bit about that and how we incorporate that into our culture, because I think it can be so powerful for so many, truly. And let's set the record straight to Marissa was an entrepreneur before she joined my team.

6:12And this is the longest job you've ever stayed at, right? Correct. It is a huge deal. I will tell you, I never thought in my life that I would be in a company still at almost five years. Three was my max. And at that point, I used to get like that anxiety of like, I need to do something new. And so, yeah, it has been an incredible experience in that regard as well. Yeah. So one of the things that I think is so interesting and something that you and I have kind of talked about is that like over the years, we have been given advice, even if it was well-intentioned or we've kind of been conditioned to believe that when it comes to your career and speaking your truth, you keep your mouth shut, right?

7:00You make people happy, especially women. We're people pleasers. We are yes girls. And I think what's so interesting is that there are legitimate fears behind that, right? Like that isn't necessarily just like, oh, this shouldn't be this way because for a lot of women, it could end their career. It could blacklist you from a company. It could change the industry that you're in. It could stall your development. And so this is like a real thing. And there are a lot of legitimate fears around that. And I remember when I worked for Target, You know, Marissa also works for Target. So we have that in common.

7:37I remember when I started my photography business on the side, at first I was talking about it a little bit in the office and very quickly I learned to shut it down. And it was really hard because for an entire year of my life, I was working this full-time corporate gig, having to be all in on that, going home, burning the candle on both ends. And I literally was leading this double life because I couldn't talk about my dreams, my aspirations, what I was excited about at work. And I remember, I literally remember one conversation with my boss, we were walking through the back room and I had said something about how I had booked a wedding.

8:18And she was like, well, is it on a weekend that you work? And that was where all of a sudden I was like, shut your mouth, Jenna Kutcher, you're done. And so it was so hard because it's like, I knew where I wanted to go. I also saw this plan in front of me. 50 hours plus of my life were devoted to this one thing that I didn't love any longer, but I couldn't talk about it. And in my book, I tell the story about jamming the laminator at work with this collage that I was making for my photography business. And I was doing it on a night shift at Target. And it was like the first time where I had to face the fact that like I was living this double life and I told somebody about it.

8:56It was our office manager, Kathy, but there was so much fear. And so I totally get that. And I think so many of us have experiences like that, where it's like, you're living multiple identities at one time, because where you're at and what you're doing isn't aligned with where you want to go. I understand that too, especially in my time at Target, because I feel at least there for me, that my career trajectory, and you've shared this before, was mapped for me. And in my particular organization too, it was that everyone wanted to climb that career ladder. So if you were to talk about, again, doing anything different or developing in a different way, that was looked very poorly upon.

9:38And I will never forget when I came to my STL, the store team leader and was like, I'm ready to do something different. Like I'm ready to go. And he was like, that's an incredibly huge mistake. And I said, we'll see. Yeah. And then I left. And you know, what's cool about that too, is we still have a relationship, him and I today, and we've actually talked about that post-employment and he ended up exiting as well. And actually, um, it was very validating in that he gave me kind of that kudos of like, Hey, you kind of shine the light as to what it looks like to stand in your truth and to exit when something is not aligned.

10:14So I think too, with having these conversations. And even if they don't go well, and you do decide to exit the company you're at, you have the ability to still inspire and impact people to also stand in their truth. Yeah. And this is not a slam at target because Marissa and I both agree that we learned so much like leadership development in that company is amazing. But I think it is interesting because it is so easy for us to be handed a path and to love and crave that certainty and that security that it brings us. But I think a lot of times with that comes us ignoring those like intuitive pings or those gut feelings of like, wait, but this wasn't my plan.

10:58Or what if I want my plan to be different? And so, I mean, I'm ordering an Instacart from Target right now. So we still love Target. Target, we love you. We're wearing our red today. Okay. So one thing that I think is really interesting is your journey through my business. And real quick, I'll give a 30 second snapshot. Hopefully everyone knows who you are and what you do at this point, because you've been on the show a few different times. But Marissa entered the scene when Coco was a teeny tiny baby. I was incredibly overwhelmed. She jumped in as an integrator. our transition into that role was challenging.

11:35I had never had anyone at my right hand side to help me in that way. We definitely grinded each other's gears for a solid chunk of time before we broke through and just started seeing the light. And so we have had just a really beautiful, but not clear of bumps road. And one of the things that I respect so deeply about even our relationship throughout everything is that we've had some really like tough conversations and also honest conversations. And so one of the things I want to kind of talk about is when you then went on to have your baby and you came back, you were kind of coming back into the business similar to where I was when I was flailing when you entered and you come back, we're jumping into the book launch something we've never done.

12:25It was a really big project across the entire brand. And all of a sudden it was like, is this going to work? And I literally remember exactly where I was when we had this phone call. I was walking on the side of the road at our lake house and we were just having this conversation. And so first tell me how this conversation came up and then we can kind of walk through like how we approached it. Well, I think if you've stepped into motherhood, you know that it's such an incredible transition. It's such a huge transition. And so much of you changes alongside where your values are. And the integrator role is such a robust and challenging and exciting role.

13:05And although it like hits so many of my sweet spots, coming back after stepping into motherhood, I just really decided that I needed to also step back. I wanted to look at a more part-time route. I wanted to be more focused in a specific area of the business versus having my hands in so many places. And I wanted truly that time back with my family and my little baby. And so when I decided to have that conversation, it took a lot of reflection because, you know, that was a big step to say, you know, you hired me for this position. We've grown so much. We've got our jive going on, but this is what needs to happen for me to step into this next season of life of what I really need.

13:51And so again, I had really reflected on how I wanted to approach that conversation with you. The other thing I'll say is I wanted to be very mindful of when we have that conversation because you have to think through, are we in a live launch period? What is happening in the business around you? And then ensuring that like you actually pick space and time to have that you can really articulate and then think through what this transition could look like together. So those are some of the things that were going through my mind as I was thinking through, OK, how do I want to conduct this conversation with you?

14:27And then, as you said, we hopped on the phone and I kind of laid it out. And I think I know one of the most beautiful parts about you and again, our ability to have these conversations is you have never been like abrupt in intaking that information. It's always been very approachable in that. Okay, like, let's talk about it. Let's dream together. Let's make a plan as to how we can achieve this. And I think too, a lot of business owners, founders, CEOs may think about this for a second and say, I cannot add one more thing to my plate to think through or navigate this decision or transition alongside you.

15:10But here's the thing, you can actually encourage your team member if this is something that they are wanting to actually dream and to then start to map out their path themselves and to guide them accordingly. It doesn't have to be a lift on your end. And so I think that was one of the most powerful and extremely helpful pieces. And then we could start from that conversation initially to really putting the pieces in place to take action to make it happen. It's time for Cyber Monday, Dell Technologies' biggest sale of the year. You'll find the lowest prices of the year on select Dell PCs like the Dell 16 Plus with Intel Core Ultra processors.

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16:46okay I have been on this ruthless pursuit to purge any clothes that I'm not actually wearing like if I haven't reached for it in months it's gotta go I am trying to be really intentional about what I bring into my closet right now which means I am only buying pieces that I know I will actually wear and use revolve just gets it though I'm literally wearing my brown autri sneakers from there right now. And my new suede purse, it fits my laptop in it. So it's basically a fancy shoulder bag that works for everything. I love finding pieces like that. Things that look good, but also work hard for my actual life.

17:20Their holiday shop is live right now with all the good stuff. Sparkly party dresses, cozy sets, cute gifts, everything you need for whatever is on your calendar. And it's all in one place, which makes shopping feel way less overwhelming. Whether it's a weekend away, a big night out or a holiday party, your dream wardrobe is just one click away. Head to revolve.com forward slash gold digger, shop my edit and take 15 % off your first order with the code gold digger. Fast two day shipping, easy returns. It's literally the only place you need to shop from. That's revolve.com forward slash gold digger to shop my favorites and get 15 % off your first order with the code gold digger.

17:58Offer available for a limited time. So happy shopping. Yeah, it's so interesting because I remember our conversation. And when you came to me, I was like, I remember exactly where I was at that stage of motherhood, too. So it was like, I think it's it's less of like a boss employee transaction. It's like a woman to woman, mother to mother. Like, I get it. I totally get it. And what's so interesting to me and what I'm thinking as you're speaking is like so many of our team members, you've been here five years. Brooklyn's been like seven steps been like nine. Like we have a very veteran team and I have just realized I care so much more about the people than the position.

18:40And when you were talking about, I need a different position or I need a different shift. I was like, dream it up. You know, the business and I trust you to poise this position in a way that supports the business because you know it, that like you would never cop out or do something. And I think that that is where transparency is key in the sense of like, if someone is coming to you and they're already underperforming and you can tell they're tapped out and they're saying, I need something easier. You're going to know in your gut, this is not a right fit. It is time to cut ties. But if these are people who have proven their ethic and their support and they understand the vision?

19:22Like, oh my gosh, what if they dreamt up something even better than what they're currently doing? And so I just remember I kept saying, I'm not afraid of this. I'm not afraid of this. Cause you kept saying like, here's this transition. I'm like, that doesn't scare me. This doesn't scare me. I think every time we've had these conversations, I'm like, I'm not scared of this. Like, let's see what it cracks open. And again, like if you look at it, I think we have some statistics on how much entrepreneurs spend. Do we have that on here? of like how much they spend or lose in training someone? Okay.

19:54Yes. So if you think about when somebody gives you a two weeks notice, so these conversations can go one of two ways, right? It could either be, it's time to, you know, cut ties or let's figure out a different way forward. A lot of times two weeks is not enough time to fill that position. So now suddenly, if you're a small organization like us, you're running lean, you're likely as the CEO stepping in to fill in that role or figure it out. And there is a stat that says it costs an employer on average 33 % of an employee's yearly salary for their exit. And again, sometimes that is absolutely inevitable.

20:32I think as a leader, you know, in your gut, but in my opinion, this could be absolutely minimized or even eliminated. If you invite open this conversation for transparency and you have a little creativity. And I think a lot of times entrepreneurs, especially when you are building out a team, you like have these very specific roles or titles in mind. And it's like, what if it was choose your own adventure in a way that benefited everyone? And so I remember that conversation. And so what we ended up is that Marissa proposed this different position in the brand that would just ultimately give her more work-life balance.

21:08And I saw the value and I understood it. And the vision was clear. And so as we started that transition, we kind of recognized like, Oh, this could totally work. And it did for a while, right? It did. And I also want to bring up a point because you're so right about being creative and in our company. And I'm sure in many of those listening, we don't have a huge tier by tier, a whole developmental, like different titles. This is where you're going. And LinkedIn's actually 2023 workplace learning report noted that 93 % of organizations are concerned about employee retention. And like the number one way to improve retention is by providing learning opportunities.

21:53So how can you get creative with what those learning opportunities look like, what developmental opportunities that you can provide and how you can expand their role? It doesn't have to be like, Like we have a small but mighty team and we can develop in ways that work for us. So don't think you have to be like big box or it's like all of these different series of steps that need to be taken. Again, getting creative to help someone escalate in a way or expand in a way that makes sense for both of you. I think it'd be very powerful too. And I want to shout out to like, I strongly love having a smaller team.

22:32And I will tell you, the listeners, every time I'm with my friends who have teams of 30, 40, 100 employees, they are jealous that we operate with about 10 core people. Like they're like, oh, my gosh, I remember those days. It was amazing. Like, so I just want to say bigger is not always better, especially when you're talking about these lateral moves. You are so much more nimble to make these shifts and changes than if you were dreaming of this organization that had all of these tiers like Marissa was talking about. Like our org chart is very, very simple. And that is intentionally set up that way.

23:12And so I just think it was so cool because I wanted to honor where you were at as a mom. I could see this like struggle. And to me, it was like, I don't want to lose you. So how do we navigate through this together? And we did that. That led us to this last year. Now, I want to bring up one conversation that we hadn't talked about, but I think it's a powerful one. So Marissa flew to Minnesota in September, and we went out for this amazing pasta. Shout out to Bob Bene in Duluth, Minnesota. And during that conversation, she even feels comfortable to just share like, I have this idea for something I want to do on my own, or I'm feeling pull in different ways.

23:50We have such a transparent relationship at this point that she has my full support. If you've been listening to the show for any amount of time, you know, our amazing Kylie, who was with me for four years, launched her own podcast, Dark Down East, that is absolutely crushing it on the charts. I always supported the growth of her and her independence and what she wanted outside of her career. And so it's never been this like scarcity place, but I just, I love that conversation of knowing like what you are dreaming about in your life and also feeling transparent to share what I'm dreaming about with my life and business.

24:28And so it feels like when you have a team and when you build real relationships, ultimately you want what's best for people. And so having those conversations also allows you to not be blindsided because I know so many people feel blindsided. And it's like, if you were having deeper conversations, things wouldn't necessarily be a surprise. What do you think about that? I love that. And I will say great grounded leadership like that. And you will always propel you forward. We'll always want to support your dreams moving forward. Those that want to hold you back or keep you in a place of a particular role because you are exceptional at it.

25:10A lot of times that comes, in my opinion, from ego and being afraid to relinquish because they're afraid of what it will look like to fail or to transition or to change. And so for those, again, leaders who can encourage that not only type of conversation, but trajectory, in my opinion, can open the door for so much more for both the company and the individual. Yeah, I've definitely too had stages of entrepreneurship when it comes to team building, where I felt like if this one person leaves, we are screwed. And that is not a great feeling as an entrepreneur. And I now feel like I have like a grip that is loose in the sense of like, I love every person on my team.

25:58But if they truly wanted something that was better for them, they could be replaced. And that's not said in a negative way. It's said in a way of like, don't ever feel like everything would crumble if you walked away, if walking away was right for you. And I remember even working at Target, having that fear of like, what would happen to my team? I love my team so much. No one can fill these shoes. And I literally remember going into my office to pack up my box and someone else had already moved into it. And I was like, That was how quickly I was replaced. And so I sometimes think being replaceable is a beautiful feeling of freedom so that you also don't tell yourself that you're stuck.