793: Hot Take: The “The Ideal Client Avatar” Exercise is Overrated

0:00I love that you are honoring and thinking about and considering the rhythm of your life first, beyond just the rhythm of your work. And I feel like so many people do the rhythm of their work and then they try to fit life in there. And I think most of us have discovered that that just doesn't happen. I'm Jenna Kutcher, your host of the Gold Digger podcast. I escaped the corporate world at the age of 23 with nothing more than a$300 camera from Craigslist and a dream. Now I'm running a seven figure online business that feels even better than it looks all from my house in small town, Minnesota with my family.

0:36here we value time as our currency we mix the woo and the work and we are in the pursuit of building businesses that give us the freedom to live lives that we love i've always loved turning big goals into reality and i'm here to help you do the same this isn't just a peek behind the curtain come along with me and my guests as we tear the whole curtain down every week we tackle practical no fluff marketing strategies and host honest discussions on what works and what doesn't Join me and my expert guests for actionable insights to help you grow your dream business with confidence. Pull up a seat and get ready to be challenged, inspired, and empowered.

1:15This is the Gold Digger Podcast. If you are someone who is struggling to convert your audience into paying clients or struggling to feel like your message is actually reaching the people you are creating for, today's coaching session is for you. Claudia Woodford is a self-love and empowerment coach for working moms. She's been running her business for almost two years, alongside being a full-time nurse with a five-year-old and a two-year-old. She uses her healthcare background to look at clients' lives holistically and works with them to transform all aspects of their lives by teaching them how to love themselves for who they truly are.

1:56Yes, I believe she is superwoman, especially because we have children the same age. And I know what this stage of life feels like. In today's coaching session, we discuss how to convert her audience into paying clients. And I help her with her messaging and her marketing, using guiding principles that you can also use to get clear on how it is that you are reaching the people you are creating for. Since Claudia has limited time for her business, we also want to make sure that she's putting her time to its best use so that she can eventually reach her goal to quit her nursing job. The questions about niching down and nailing your messaging can apply no matter what type of business you are running.

2:39I promise you, just as she was, you are going to be taking notes while listening to this conversation. If you would like to be featured in a future coaching episode of the Gold Digger podcast, make sure you are inside of our Facebook community. It's the Gold Digger Insiders Facebook group. We've linked it in the episode description and the show notes there. I will be periodically asking for volunteers to ask me questions, to get on the line with me, get mentored and help other listeners. And of course, to be on your favorite podcast of all time. So make sure you are inside of our Facebook community and maybe you and I will hit record together soon.

3:13Now, without further ado, let's dive on into my coaching session with Claudia. More to do is less time and an infinite number of tools to keep track of. Goal diggers, do you ever feel like doing business has never felt harder? Well, the good news is you don't need a miracle to hit your goals. You just need HubSpot. They're all in one customer platform can make growing your business so much easier. Imagine this high quality leads, fast closing deals, wildly happy customers and more benchmark breaking quarters. It's not a miracle. It's HubSpot. Visit HubSpot.com to get started today. That's HubSpot.com.

3:53Welcome gold diggers to today's coaching session. I am so excited. I have notes. We are ready to rock. Claudia, give me a little look into your life, your business, where you are coming at from today and then we get to dive into the good stuff. Hi, I'm so excited to be here. So basically, I am 40 years old. I live in England, mum of two. I've been a nurse for 20 years. And as I'm saying all this, I'm like thinking about your episode last week about not introducing ourselves by the things we do. I'm a chatterbox. I love to chat. I'm very much I love networking and meeting people and in the beginning of 2022 I had just had Evie in the September before so she's about four months old and I was suffering with postnatal depression and I looked into coaching and I actually using coaching to heal and then I was like do you know what I want to help other mums reclaim their sense of who they are and I just found it so beautiful myself So I was like, I want to create this business.

5:04So at the moment, I juggle having a five-year-old and a two and a half-year-old who knows her mind very well. And running a business, my nursing, where I support, I'm a professional nurse advocate. I support nurses with burnout and work-related stress because we've got the National Health Service in England and it is under significant financial pressure and things. So that's what I do in my work days. And then I've got my coaching business where I support some fantastic ladies with their lives and their businesses and improving their self-love. And life is very busy, which I think is the same for you, children the same age.

5:46Oh, my gosh. I mean, I don't know how you do it all in one day. And maybe that's part of the problem. And I just want to say thank you for being a nurse. Pretty much everybody in my family, except for me, became a nurse. And so I just have so much love. And I also feel so safe when I'm with them because I'm like, you know what to do in an emergency, which I do not. So thank you for that. And thank you for sharing a little bit of your story. So why did you want to sign up for a coaching session? And what is the big burning question that you'd like to begin with? So for me, it was, I really resonate with a lot of the things that you talk about.

6:20Like I said, about our children being the same age, but also with the ADHD, I'm waiting for a formal diagnosis, but I pretty much meet every single diagnostic question. And I was just wondering about how to figure out which are the most important things to do when you have limited time. And so that I'm putting all my energy into the right things, because sometimes I think I get distracted and I've started like a million projects and I'm like, okay, but what should I do when I don't have every single hour of every single day to focus on business? Yeah. So first from the ADHD standpoint, you are not alone.

6:57I was even joking with Drew last night because I saw this meme about how people with ADHD tend to leave like cabinets open because you're like, oh, I'm going to unload the dishwasher. And then like halfway through doing that, you get distracted and like, I need to water the plants. And all of a sudden, like everything's open. And I was just like, see, it's not just a me thing. And so I can very much relate. But I also think that a lot of times we get these like creative urges where things feel urgent, right? Like we have an idea and we don't trust ourselves to remember it. So we need to take action on it right now.

7:28And then the next idea comes and we forget about the first one and everything feels half done. And I think that a lot of times that leads to that overwhelm or that like 2am where your brain is still spinning and you're trying to like will yourself into remembering what you need to do the next day in order to progress. And I also think that can lead to burnout because we often feel like, well, what did I even accomplish today? Because we got a lot of half things done, but we didn't really accomplish a whole. Does that resonate with you? Yeah. A hundred percent. Okay. So many ideas written on paper that I'm like, and which one first?

8:04Yes. Yes. Okay. So the first thing that I wanted to ask you, cause I was looking through your questions and I was like, okay, I'm going to like, we're going to make this interactive together. And I know you'll work with me on it is my first question is if you were to like close your eyes and really like get into your body like what is the one thing that you really want to protect like that is most sacred to you in this stage of life that like is the non-negotiable and it's just one thing what comes to mind for you absolutely time with my family like I mean that is the reason that I wanted this business to fit around them and to be here and be present.

8:45And so they are their reason. Yeah. I think a lot of people listening can relate to that. And I think that I wanted to start there because it'd be so easy to start with the business and the coaching and also, you know, your career as a nurse. And we could get in the weeds on that, which we will. But I think if we have that clarity of like the real reason for all of it and the real hope behind all of it is to have freedom of time. I think that's going to be the best guiding force moving forward as we try to discern, okay, where does this precious time go? So what do you see yourself doing in a couple of years from now?

9:26And here's, what's so fun about this conversation is like you said, we literally have kids that are the exact same ages. And so I don't know if you're facing this at all, or if it's just me, but I feel like right now we're like in the good weeds, But in a couple of years, my kids are going to be in school and it's going to be like a whole different stage. And so I kind of feel on shaky ground because I'm really clear about right now. But I'm also unclear of like, what does that look like when both kids are in school? Like, what is that going to be? Do you resonate with that at all? Yeah, 100 percent.

9:57So in my head, I have this like ideal week where, you know, I have like a nice, gentle start into the week, maybe doing some networking and then like a start then literally all around the school hours which isn't actually a huge part of the day getting to the gym regularly because I love going to like actual classes you know like with other people like Zumba and you just oh yoga and those kind of things I have this in my head I'm like I'm going to do some exercise then I jump on some client calls and then like have a CEO day maybe in the middle of the week do my podcast like that's kind of how I visioned it so that when the kids finish school I'm there I'm picking them up we have fun I don't have to think oh I need to try and squeeze in an Instagram post like you know just all these little bits that at the moment is a bit like oh well I've got two minutes here so let me do that I just want it to be like work is work and then when the kids are home I'm with them and like we can do fun things together they love crafting with me I mean they love running around like lunatics as well, you know, in the park and things, but like, I want to do those nice things.

11:07I don't want to be like, right now, just wait a minute. Mommy's just looking at this. I a hundred percent relate to that. And I feel like I finally hit that place. And so I would say that because it is possible, but it doesn't also just happen. And I think that's what so many of us are like butting up against is like, how do we get there? And it's been so interesting because I love that you are honoring and thinking about and considering the rhythm of your life first beyond just the rhythm of your work. And I feel like so many people do the rhythm of their work and then they try to fit life in there.

11:46And I think most of us have discovered that that just doesn't happen, right? When we use the leftover bits, there's not really a lot left over for the things that are the most important. So my question for you from a career standpoint is what role does nursing play in this vision moving forward? Because I noticed you didn't necessarily mention it in the ideal week. I think I've been a nurse for 20 years. I feel like this is the evolution of that. I've really been interested in that holistic care of people. And I named my business Gladys have been a wellness because I wanted to focus on the whole body.

12:25And to be honest, nursing can be quite stressful because you always see people on their worst day, the worst time of their life. And you do carry that burden. And now that I'm supporting staff rather than patients and such, you really do feel that. And I love when I'm working with my clients, seeing their journey and seeing the transformations. And as they're like, it's impacting across their life. And I think that as much as I love nursing, I feel like my future, what I'm being called to at this time in my life is more coaching. Right. And that kind of preventative health, I suppose, because you're literally focusing on how we can stop ourselves from getting unwell, whether that's mentally or physically.

13:11So for me, it would be to have this business and freedom and the ability to really be present for my children, which I don't feel I'd get if I stayed in the same role. I am such a homebody at heart, but I love when travel reminds me just how beautiful it is to step outside of our routine. For the kids' fall break, we booked a stay on a small farm near Nashville through Airbnb, and it was one of the most memorable trips we've taken this year. We met donkeys, goats, and pigs, and the kids got to pick peppers in their greenhouse. Watching them run around the farm, getting their hands dirty, and laughing the whole time was such a joy.

13:51It was peaceful. It was full of those little moments that literally just make you pause and feel connected. That trip reminded me why I love using Airbnb. It connects you to places and experiences that really stay with you. If you've ever thought about hosting your home on Airbnb, it doesn't take much. Whether it's your entire house or just a spare room, your space could offer that same feeling to someone else and even earn you some extra income. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at Airbnb.com forward slash host. My question for you, and we don't have to go into it, but something to consider would just be, have you planned your off ramp from that part of your life?

14:36I have to a certain extent but then like it feels like it's a bit tricky when so at the moment I have like a day a week that is purely just for business and then it's the other little bits that you kind of squeeze in here and ever and I find that it's quite hard to get momentum and I think like one of the questions that I want to talk to you about is like how I refine my message because I am really passionate about equality and I hate it when people are excluded from things I want to be inclusive and I think part of that has held me back because I initially came out when I started my coaching and I was like you must niche I was like okay I've got a niche and then I just felt that actually it wasn't fair that I knew I could help other people and I didn't want them to feel like they couldn't be helped because they weren't a mum or they didn't call themselves mum they call themselves something else because that's how they identified and I just really felt bad because I've never deprived people in my nursing you know it was like you know you're a patient regardless of what your religion is what your gender what your sexual orientation whatever that is wherever you're from I will give you the exact same best care because that's what I want to do I want to look after you and I felt so there's this kind of like friction between like oh you must niche so people know you're talking to them versus this part of me going but I don't want people to feel excluded yeah and so I think then I get confused about what I'm actually meant to be saying yes no I first off I just feel your heart in it and I think it's beautiful and so I think everyone listening to is like yeah I get it and it's so funny because like I was even just thinking about like the ideal avatar exercise and I'm like I just don't resonate with that that's never resonated with me.

16:28I always picture like the blue guy in like the film and I'm like, avatar, the word just, it doesn't, it doesn't stick. And so one of the things that I was thinking about, especially for you and kind of knowing where you're coming from and what your goal is, is what's been so helpful for me is I have a friend, Sarah, in my life who like, I create my offers around for that one person. And what's amazing is, is that like when you cast the net. Like you will catch people beyond the person you're aiming at. Right. So it's like, if you think of a bullseye and if you were to drop a net, like there are going to be people on the fringe that are also going to resonate with it.

17:04But I think what's happening is that you are being so broad, which is out of a beautiful idea and a beautiful intent. But in that you're lacking clarity that allows people to have confidence to make a decision on purchasing. Does that resonate? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So for me, what's been so helpful is like when I think about Sarah, it's, you know, she's a mom just like me. She has similar kid ages. She's really healthy. She wants a business, but she wants a life. Like she's built businesses she's hated in the past, but now she wants to build one she loves. Like all these things I can like, and she's a real human.

17:41So like, it's so easy instead of like imagining like this random character. So one question that I have for you is have you ever had a client who you were like I want a hundred more of you or like you are the reason why I do this work have you had that experience yet yeah 100 % and I have but my space my like hesitation in that is that she was one of my first clients when I was practicing and doing my coaching certification and she like herself was like she was the first person I told about the business idea and she was like I'd love to help you but she wasn't like she's like oh the coaching isn't really for me and actually she had a huge transformation she's like this is the best thing I've ever done but I suppose my concern is if my client is like her she didn't know that coaching is what she needed she only did it because we were friends and I was like trust me you're gonna love it I suppose that's my my worry about.

18:41So we can get past that though. That doesn't have to stay. What's really interesting is that, and something, you know, I think marketing has both beautiful impacts and also can be used in a terrible way with marketing. But what I think can be beautiful is when you think about this idea of giving people what they think they want, but serving them what they truly need. Right. And we often have to do this. I was actually just talking to somebody the other day because I was like, you know, I teach Pinterest and like, I love Pinterest. I think it's an amazing platform. But the reason why I love and teach Pinterest is that people can get results in an hour a week and set it and forget it and get back to their life.

19:23Pinterest is the vehicle to what I really want to give people, which is their time back right at the precipice of everything that I do. It's like time is our currency. And so it's interesting because oftentimes I can be like, okay, I don't want to talk about Pinterest for the rest of my life. But at the same point, Pinterest is the vehicle for the bigger mission. And so I think oftentimes when we get those like mental roadblocks of like, well, this person didn't even want coaching, they were resistant to it. What is it that they want? And what I think for you is that they want this end result.

19:55And regardless of somebody's gender or race or anything like that, end results can be pretty universal, right? Like, I think we all have these things in our life where we imagine, right? Imagine the feeling of feeling free in your body. Imagine what it would be like to be confident in who you are beyond the roles you play. Imagine what it would feel like to wake up feeling energized and excited about your day, right? Like I'm not putting words into your coaching practice, but like I, those are pretty universal dreams. Right. And so what's interesting is, is if you've had that client who has had this huge transformation, what you want to get really clear on is like, what was that end result?

20:43And is that end result universal or could it be more universal? And the answer is probably yes. And so how do we get clear on selling people what they think they want, you know, for me, which is like, you know, a marketing strategy that gets you seen and gets you tons of eyeballs. But then in your practice, because you are confident in the transformation you can give, you get to do the magic, right? And so it's like the marketing has to be that end result that why. So whenever we create any sort of marketing or copy or messaging, we start with the end first. And so it's like, what is this result that is desirable by our ideal client?

21:28And they don't need to know the, how we're going to get there, right? Like we will give them the breadcrumbs and you know, they're not just paying for something that they don't understand, but at the same point, they don't need to get lost in the mess of how we get there. They just need to trust that we will get them there. Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. I'm making notes. Good.

21:49I need to write this now. What questions does this bring up for you? So I do have your Pinterest lab, actually. I'm like, I've started it. We haven't finished it yet. But yeah, so I'm just trying to think about the kind of pins that my initial client at the beginning of the journey might be looking for. And the thing, the search terms that she might be kind of putting in without necessarily searching for coaching yeah as in like what place is she in it's really interesting and i'm kind of like oh i need to go and have a little little ponder on that just but yes i definitely think you're right it's i think i got so distracted and focused on the fact that the avatar wasn't just one person that actually thinking okay it's the end result that we're talking about because that's the thing that is universal isn't it that feeling that you are empowered and you are able to take control of your life it's your life and you're not being sucked into what other people want and all of the people pleasing a mum girl and stuff actually you know you're making those decisions that are right for you because you will show up so much better for your children and for yourself when you're feeling nurtured yeah another thing that just popped into my brain as you were speaking is the power of getting really good at telling your story.

23:15Because when we're thinking about wanting to reach a more inclusive audience and keeping that as a really big part of your values, people connect with story, right? Like we look at traditional, everything has been passed down through generations through stories. And so when you can get really good at telling your own story of transformation, people will automatically see themselves in that story. And so again, when we think about marketing, we don't necessarily have to, you know, imagine this blue avatar and try to, you know, make this imaginary figure into something real. We can focus on the end result and we can focus on story.

23:55And it really shifts the feeling of marketing. And it also shifts the idea of selling because what I look at marketing as is really good marketing is allowing someone to pre-qualify themselves with confidence. And it's not necessarily convincing. It's allowing someone to have like the autonomy to say, oh, this is me. This is me. I need this. This is the right fit. And I think confident buyers are like the best buyers to work with because they already see it and they get it right. And so I think that if you're thinking about this first person that you ever worked with, and that you almost had to convince her into it.

24:35It puts you in a more defensive space of marketing that I feel like is like a lower frequency to be coming at it from versus helping people qualify themselves as a buyer who is like, yeah, I know this is the right fit for me and I'm willing to invest in it. And so we can take pieces of that initial client experience where you can maybe be curious about, what was her big pain point? What was the desired end result? like what really worked well, but I don't want you to stay in that place of you having to convince people because that doesn't feel good, right? Like it just doesn't feel good within us, but it also isn't necessary to have a successful business because there will be people who are confidently pre-qualifying themselves as they learn more about your story.

25:23And as they understand the end result and the path to get there. Yeah, for sure. I know whenever I have told my story and And like, so I was in an abusive marriage and that kind of started my healing journey when I came out of that with a three month old. And yeah, it was crazy. I mean, thankfully things have improved so much because of all the healing I've done. But yeah, I definitely could weave my story a lot more into my content and things that people know. Yeah. It's interesting too, with our stories, because a lot of times we're all so guilty of this where it's like, well, I told my story on that one podcast episode.

26:02So like, I'm never going to tell it again. Right. Or like, you know, on my about me section, there's two paragraphs. So that should suffice. And I will never forget, even when I was writing my book, we were really trying to figure out this balance of like, things I had never talked about, never shared about all of that is inside of the book. But also, we need some of the classics. And I remember somebody on my publishing team was like, you know, think about when you go to a concert of your favorite artists, you don't want to hear all their new stuff. You want to hear some of the good stuff, like the classics and things you were raised on.

26:34And I think the same goes for our stories. And so it is something where it's like, when you feel empowered to share your story in a way that you know, that connects, it can again, like do the connecting for you and help do the qualifying for you. But it's also not something that should be considered like a one and done. it needs to be a constant theme a reminder a thing and i think a lot of times we're just like oh well i already talked about this so like that makes sense right and so i'm excited for you to feel even more empowered in your storytelling because i think that will actually do a lot of the work for you as well yeah now you say right i literally like the first proper episode of my podcast was my story and then like you say the about page and then i'm like well i've talked about that now.

27:21Moving on. Oh, and it's such a great thing to weave into everything because when people understand deeper, like what you've been through and what you've overcome and your why again, it's like, it gives them something to tether themselves to. And it shows that what's possible for them as well. So you are being a mirror and in you hiding what you've had to go through and not necessarily outwardly sharing that transformation consistently. You're not allowing people to envision that same transformation for themselves. And I think that's just such a good reminder for all of us of like your story matters and your story is what people are going to remember and connect with.

27:58And so share it as often as you possibly can. That is such a good I've written it about three times already. Great. Okay. What is your next question? So I suppose going back to what the best thing to focus on is with the whole ADHD million tabs open at one time. So we were talking initially about, you know, my priorities, my family. So if you literally were just focusing on one part of your business, what would be the part to focus on? Okay. So first I would focus on what the off-ramp looks like for the career. And I wrote a whole chapter about it in my book called the enough point, but like just establishing, like, if you're not ready to make the leap yet, how can you cut back to as small as you can, where you're still supported and you still feel secure, but you're just expanding the amount of time you have on the business.

28:53So I would just start there, but we'll kind of move forward from that. The second thing I would be curious about is which resonates more with you right now, doing like one-on-one transformative experiences that are higher price, but lower volume, or creating something once that can serve many that might be a lower price point, but a higher volume of customers? Which one feels better for this stage of life? So I have a course. I did create one, but I don't tell people about it. Okay. It is amazing as well, because I know the people that have gone through it have like absolutely loved it. But it's just one of those things that I, again, I'm not very good with this whole like oh well I've done that okay now I'm gonna move on to something else so I love the one-on-ones and I created the course because of like scaling and stuff and I was like there are people who won't be able to afford it and this whole like I want to be inclusive but um yeah so I have it's a self-love academy called Leading Lady and it's basically works you through that journey of increasing your self-love with some practical tools.