861: The Biggest Messaging Mistake You’re Making—And How to Fix It

25:26Do they actually know what it feels like to stick your hands in the dough? Do they know how to tell like, there's so many human components of everything that I think we're craving. One thing I'm curious about is like, in order to position ourselves in the market and help our audience actually see our uniqueness. And you touched on this because I agree, we're so close to our own genius that we don't even see it. How do we kind of mix these things we're talking about with clarity and storytelling? Because a lot of business owners struggle to balance the two. They're like, where do I tell stories?

25:57Where do I get to the point? How do we make our message compelling with avoiding that thing that kills it all, which is confusion? I love it. I like how we're focusing on clarity. And I'm from Alabama, so I can say it, but like, bless our hearts. We've been told stories so much that I think now people are like, but like how? What does that look like? And I think when we, if you could have a word picture, when somebody says the word story, you picture a book or tone, a thick paragraph, like this gargantuan piece of writing that I think intimidates a lot of us who don't feel like natural writers.

26:32So when I say story, it can literally be an anecdote, an aside, a one-line sentence. Story is just like this human, I think it's a C.S. Lewis quote when he said like a friend is born when somebody says, oh, you, me too. Like you're just having that little tiny moment. Story can be communicated in a picture. Like you could, I did that in an email campaign we shot out recently in my own business. Like it's just that little moment. And then I always say S.S.P. Story, segue, pitch. So all you're going to do is take that story moment. We do this in a lot of your emails. Segway, not like the little scooters, but a segue would be the moment where you say, it's kind of like building your email list.

27:14It's kind of like what that has to do with your blog right now or whatever you're trying to segue to. And then you pitch. And I like to, again, this is kind of talking about email copy, but this could go for landing pages too. You always want to make, make it worth the price of entry to read email or read the sales page. Like that pitch, include in there a learning, a mindset shift that your offer, I'll get like this is a little 201 copywriting. You want to sell the sizzle, not the steak. So when you pitch, communicate the like aha moment and your offer, your service, your product is just the Aladdin magic carpet to get there faster.

27:52But when you're communicating that pitch, you're giving them a moment of like the light bulb. You want the light bulb to go off. And that is like, if you can use that SSP kind of framework, if story freaks you out, like it's not, it's not some long narrative. Really, we're just trying to have a moment where you can look your person in the eye and say like, hey, me too. Or I know somebody just like you. And this is what she looked like. This is what she went through. Move right along. Yes. And I mean, story could literally be like my six year old asked me where the color blue came from. And I realized it was exactly how I felt when somebody told me I needed an email list.

28:27like, it can be so small. And what's interesting too, is that I think oftentimes, and even sometimes I'm prone to do this where I could write the whole thing and then realize like, it's kind of like if you jump on Slack and you're like, Hey, I need this quick template. And you're, you forget the like, hello, good morning. How are you? Did you sleep well? Right. And naturally my brain does that where I have to go back in the email and add in the pleasantries and the niceties and the questions before the meeting. But I love that. You're writing though with the purpose in mind, which, so you asked earlier about clarity, like that's how you make it clear because you start out, I write everything bottom up.

29:12I always start at the meat part. If it's meat and potatoes, like I'm starting at the thing itself. And then I'll, cause I can figure out the other stuff. Like I can figure out how to get to the point. But I like that you said that because I think, and maybe that is a helpful hint for people to hear that, that freak out about writing, like write what you know first. And usually that's the bottom part of it, the offer, the ask, the thing itself, and then figure out what goes on top of it. And this story is so simple. Like that's where, yeah, I agree. If I'm like thinking of like, what is the story about email list building?

29:48It's like, okay, I have like two main story. But like if you, yes, start with what is the end result here and then think through like, well, when was the time that I was confused or when was the time that I sat and didn't take action? Oh, wow. That's suddenly so much easier. So I absolutely love that. Okay. So you have this framework that I love and it's around the four buyer types. Let's walk through that because this plays so well into what we're talking about right now. Okay. So I, we're both washed up corporate girlies. when I was in corporate land at one point, I went through some training.

30:23I think we were trying to figure out how to, it was like some philanthropy, like pro bono training at my agency. And we learned like asking for money from people, there was like different brain styles of thinking. And so I had that like deposited in the back of my head. The years go by, I start my business, I'm writing copy and I'm thinking like, suddenly these are coming up again in my head. And I'm realizing as I'm drafting, especially long form copy, that there's pieces of the whole, truly I believe there's about 16 levers psychologically that are pulled in a big marketing or launch campaign.

30:57And I was like, oh my gosh, these are literally spliced up among these thinking styles. So now with everything I write, I'm always thinking of those. And again, this is why long form copy works. I'll go into the four styles, but you typically, I know I sure do, you sell like you like to be sold to, majority of us. If you like the facts and just the facts, thank you, ma 'am. That is kind of how you're going to sell yourself. If you're more of the picture painter and the visionary, you're attracted to that. So the four types are, and I named them back in 2017. And now I'm like, well, here we are.

31:34We have a quiz for it. People have taken it. So I'm like, I can't change the names now, but they are. The first is sassy and strategic. take. So this type of person, type A type, they want to know where's the proof. What does this look like? The what is the big question for them. So when they're hitting a sales page, they're wanting to know, okay, like what days are the calls? How is this going to look in my life? Can I see the inside? Can I see behind the scenes of this? What does this service actually look like? I'm booking you to do our brand photos. Like what can you show me? What does a day look like?

32:08The next one is the poised and polished type. This is also tends to be kind of a checklist type person. They want to know what is the plan and their big question is how does this work? So when they're approaching an email list course for instance they really they're the ones looking through like module by module. How what is going on in this? Do I already have that somewhere else? Like they're your questions asker. They're looking at the FAQs very heavily. These two people proof matters big time for them because they are looking to poke holes in things. Next, you've got the winsome charmer. This person is focused on the who.

32:43They want to know who can I serve when I get this? How can I serve others with this? Who does this affect in my circle when I purchase this? Like what does it look like in my life? This one and the next one I'm going to talk about a little bit more big picture thinkers. The next is the whimsical visionary and this is the person that's really concerned with why does this matter? Most entrepreneurs fall into this category. So when they purchase things, they're always thinking about if you can show this person how it connects to their goals, they're in like they they've got goals, they've got dreams, they are on a mission, like you're either getting in the car and coming or not.

33:15So you your point with these people is to really explain how you're this classic, probably Joseph Campbell, like hero's journey. You're the guide, baby. Like I'm gonna help you get exactly where you need to go. So each of these types, that's why you've got your case study section or email and your FAQs. And you've got that guarantee because the person who is really concerned with how's this going to work wants to make sure that there's an escape hatch if things go wrong. So these different buyer types need to be taken into consideration in your marketing campaigns and in your copy because, again, it comes back to you usually are going to sell like you like to be sold to.

33:53And there's other people out there. Oh my gosh, this is so good. I will never forget this day. I still remember the conversation. I had a business coach and I love to like paint the possibility. Like naturally when I sell, I am like, imagine what this could be. And my business coach was the exact opposite. And he was like, I want to run from my past. Like I want to escape what didn't work. And so what was fascinating to me is when we had this conversation, we were going back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, right? It's like a ping pong ball. Like, well, but no, don't like, but if you just paint the possibilities, like, no, no, no, no.

34:37Like there's half of the population is just trying to get out of a situation or a thing that doesn't work for them or doesn't serve them. And so what was interesting is, and why I love these four different buyer types is a lot of times we are prone to only write copy to the person that we are. Right. And so when I started looking at my sales pages, I'm like, Oh my gosh, like nowhere in this, am I twisting the knife of what is hard nowhere in this? Am I pointing out the things that aren't working for somebody? And it really made us have to reevaluate. And just like we were talking about, like copy, isn't just like a one and done.

35:15It's like a moving, breathing, living phenomenon that needs to be visited and tinkered with and played with. And so I think that so many entrepreneurs right now are losing half of their sales because they are only speaking in maybe one of these ways. Like they're missing out on connecting with the people that are different than them that they could still absolutely serve and help. And so to me, I'm like, if you want to double your sales, like speak to both audiences. And I think that you kind of covered that so well of like people make different purchasing decisions in different ways. And if you're not addressing their fears, their questions, their queries in your copy, you are losing people when you have their attention, which we know is so hard to get these days.

36:05That's so good. And yeah, like you said, Like that is the argument for long form copy is no one, maybe your mom, but probably not reading your 5 ,000 word sales page or your whole website. The point of the vehicle is to help the buyer to come alongside them and serve them no matter what their propensity towards buying be. Like they might be somebody who you just, they just, you need to hold their hand and tell them the facts. They might be the one who loves that imaginative type language, but we can come alongside both of them with some coffee. Yeah. You know, I only share stuff I'm genuinely obsessed with.

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38:30Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.com slash host. So if somebody is listening to this right now and they're like, Ooh, I really need to evaluate my copy or maybe my copy is the thing that's not working. Where do they start? Like what are the first three steps to fix their positioning and to help them make their copy more effective and actually generate real results? Okay. So step one is going to feel like you're not doing anything, but you are. You need to listen. I think getting out there, not just looking at your competitors. And when I say competitors, I want to be clear that I'm talking more like what competes for the dollar with your competition or with your product.

39:14It's not always the person who does the same thing. It might. But where else may that dollar go if not to you and your business? So looking at those brands and businesses and what is the message that's being told to a customer from them, but also listening to them. How are they saying things? I think a lot of times people, and I think you've been at this longer than me, we've seen the creative economy change and shift. And I would say that sometimes we can have an attraction to want to build the brand before the business. but you have to like go out there and build the business by listening to the problems that people actually have how they say them how they phrase it like they will tell you exactly what they need and so if you're struggling with your positioning I think just going back to that and getting quiet and still and listening with that and just having kind of an open hand being like I may have to shift some things the second thing that I would say that you need to do is go ahead and get clear so this so you've listened you've gathered some data you've heard what works and what doesn't work, like go in and be ruthless in editing your own message.

40:16We did this, like I said, with my whole brand last year. I went through just a ton of life changes, move states, had a third kid. My mom was really sick. And I all of a sudden looked at my business. I was like, this is not clear. This is not who I am anymore. This is, I have matured. I have changed some things. So get in there and get clear again. Ask for eyes on it. Like ask for peer feedback. You've got your business besties. Hopefully you have a coach, like get the captain hooks in there to just tear it down. That is a good thing. And then after you've done that, I would say number three is get clear on some pieces that you can use as, like I said earlier, tough love toast.

40:49Like what are your little statements that you're going to say and put out there? And we have to hear things over and over again. But like, and I tell people too, you can usually tell what those are when people say them back to you. So if you've been doing your thing for a while and you have a client that says, you know what, when you said this, man, that stuck with me. Like, boom, put it in your bag, you're coming with me. Like that is a little statement that you can use. And so just having an awareness of what those like, what can kind of your Rolodex of phrases be that you can then use as soundbites.

41:20I would say that's a good little three step plan to right the ship if it feels a little awry. Yeah, I love this. And I think it's such a reminder to I think we're spending so much time on social media and marketing. I mean, the average marketer is spending hours upon hours a week. And it's crazy to me because it's like, if you're spending all that time just trying to get attention on platforms that don't necessarily want you to have it, or don't want to send people off of the platforms, when we actually get people that get our offers, see our offers, get to evaluate if they want our offers, that is like the gold, right?

42:00Like we are probably sitting on what could be gold mines, but we're mining in the wrong places. We're spending our time on the wrong words. And if our pages aren't converting, if they're not effective, I would say that that is where all your time and attention, like that reel that you were about to make and spend a couple hours on. If you spent those hours going through your website, looking at heat maps or asking your audience, what are they actually doing? Or how would they describe what you do? Or what three words come to mind when they think of you? That's where our time should be going. It just, sometimes I think that we get so caught up in what is shiny and what people see that we forget.

42:42How do we make people feel something? And I would argue that our copy, especially in the places that we own and can control, which is our websites and our landing pages and our sales pages, that is the gold. That's the gold. That's what actually is shiny in my opinion. Yes. It's probably the most cost-effective brand makeover you can give yourself. It's going to take some sweat equity and time, but like you probably don't have to change the design or the look or the feel, the color palette, the imagery. It's probably a messaging problem that can be diagnosed and adjusted with a backspace key and some brain juice.

43:22Yes. It's amazing. One thing that we've been doing in my business and it has been absolutely working. And I think people might be shocked to know that we've not created a new offer since Ashlyn and I had our first babies, which is over six years ago. We have not created anything new. And what's interesting is, is that I've fallen in love with the reinvention, the repositioning, and the relaunching of the same things over and over again. And what's beautiful about that is that we have the bandwidth to get very granular and nitty gritty to split test the different headlines or the different colors or the different subheadings and actually see what results are coming out of it.

44:07And there was so many years in my entrepreneurial journey where I was like, I ain't got time for that. I ain't got energy for that. But my challenge would be for people listening is that you are probably already sitting on beautiful, amazing offers that have the opportunity to change people's lives in the way that you intended when you initially created them. And if you are not spending time with those and making them a dear friend in your own life, you are missing so much opportunity to not be constantly reinventing the wheel, to not be constantly starting from scratch and to leverage the things that are already existing and make them give you the impact that they were intended to make.

44:49So I don't know, this is just like a belief on 30 seconds on that everyone and listen to that again, because that is and I you were asking me right before about like a recent trip I was on, the more I'm in business, the more I see like, yeah, we think we have to build something new and, and add to our offer ladder and all this kind of stuff. But like true, a lot, a lot of people that we look up to and have a lot of success. They I think Alex Ramosi talks about like the constraints, like figure out what are the constraints on the thing you already have that is probably really good and really useful for people and do like we've done with you is you have enough data at this point to where you know some people ask me they're like I don't even have like I don't know how to measure for conversions I don't know how to look at this well we don't have enough data there yet you haven't sold it enough yet so like that is that's where the game really gets fun I love I'm gonna have to listen to that again yeah double down double and triple down double down and I think too it's like in a world that is all obsessed with like new.

45:47And I think with entrepreneurs who essentially crave chaos, which is something that a lot of us innately do either intentionally or unintentionally, we are chasing the wrong things. And so when I think about our conversation in terms of copy and positioning, if you can fall in love with the science of those two pieces with the things that are already created and in existence, I would argue that your business will transform and also your life will transform because you are not constantly on the hamster wheel of starting fresh. There are very few times that I would argue that people need to scrap everything and move forward.

46:29And I want to make it so popular and awesome of like leveraging the things that you've already built and actually just getting them in front of the people you intended it for so that it can actually make the difference you wanted it to make. And so I just think that when we look at my business and the ways that we've grown and we've continued to grow, it isn't in the new offers. It's in the things that we're talking about today and figuring out, okay, what is the positioning and what is the thing that people are running from or running towards and how do we communicate that? And so if people are sleeping on this, it is, it's not an easy tweak, but it is absolutely doable.

47:12And it's probably easier than starting to create something from the ground up. Yes. You already have spaghetti that stuck to the wall. You know, what works and what didn't work and the failures were not like, it's just more data points for you. I love how you said, like fall in love with the science of positioning. Cause it really is, it is, you will feel like a mad scientist in a lab. Like it will light you up. It can be so fun and you don't have to build anything new. You just have to, it's, it's about testing and getting in there and getting a little dirty and it's fun. Yeah. Since I know my listeners love like an actionable takeaway, I think there's been so many actions in this episode.

47:49What is one simple shift that they could make today to instantly strengthen their messaging? Look for when somebody tells you something back. Like train your eyes to understand and grab on and you can put it, I copy bank, like I don't really, and people ask me sometimes, how do you copy bank? I don't care. It can be your notes app, can be Evernote file, like use whatever tool you already use, but start pocketing phrases when people, you want to build out a good library of just having, when people phrase something a certain way, but especially about you and your offer and what you do. So learning and hearing when people say, you know, like I said earlier, that client, when you said this, I got it.

48:30Oh, when you said that, like I, I've remembered it. Cause that is a boom. That is a headline. That is a crosshead on your page. Like that is an email. Those are the moments that you know, like that spaghetti, it's stuck to the wall. So use that. So I would say like, look for those moments. Or if you don't have those yet, start getting more comfortable saying things and having, like we have said a few times now, people crave insights. People, people crave just the nuance and the substance and like your take on things. So start to put that out more, the more you can put that out, the more you'll have feedback back.

49:05And people love to give their opinions. So give them opportunities to give their opinions, right? Like I even know there's a few creators that I follow. And like before they launch a new podcast episode, they'll be like, Hey, we're naming this episode. Which one would you be most likely to listen to? And then people feel a part of the process, but people love to voice their opinion. So if you are not ear to the ground, hearing things, ask the questions that will guide you to hear them because people will love to make their voices heard if you give them the opportunity. And if they know that you're actually leaning in and listening to them.

49:40I like how you just said that, how remember that you can co-create copy and messaging and positioning with your audience, like letting them have some take in it. I'm rereading that show your work book. And yeah, he just talks about like, when you put stuff out there, you can have that two way conversation and your, your audience can kind of be your best co-producer of the stuff that you put out there if you give them the chance and their insight can be very, very valuable. Yeah. Before we ever do webinars, we always bring up at least three or so titles and ask our audience, which one would you sign up for?

50:11And it's like, not only is that a part of a pre-launch strategy of like, Hey, something's coming, but it's also like so insightful because it could just be like one word is different or it's the same thing said in a different way. And one will just like outshine the rest. It's always shocking to me how it lands that way. But that's the power of positioning. Speaking of the power of positioning, Ashlyn, you have something coming up. Tell me what's happening. I know last year we had thousands of our listeners jump on and join you. And guys, if you don't realize this, Ashlyn has not only been in my life for a decade, but she is behind a lot of our conversion copywriting in my brand.

50:52And when I say conversion copywriting, I'm talking about copy that sells, that leads to results. And so if there is anybody to learn from, I literally just sent one of my dearest friends over to Ashlyn because I was like, this is where you need to go. So Ashlyn, what do you have coming up where people can learn more from you. Okay. I think I'm on a mission. I'll just say it to make positioning sexy again. So we'll talk about copy. I'm going to do the copy kit clinic masterclass. And we're going to talk about five pieces specifically of messaging that you need in your copy kit, you need in your copy caboodle.

51:21But a lot of this is going to be positioning statements and help you figure out how in the world do you say how you do what you do differently or better than somebody that does the same thing. I think a lot of entrepreneurs, if I asked you that straight up, put a mic in front of your face, freeze up a little bit, but you have to figure that kind of thing out. And then we can lean on tools, tools like AI templates, all sorts, like the copywriting piece of it. We can absolutely figure out, but we're going to focus this class on some of those messaging components. So I'm going to teach this again.

51:50I'm so excited. I did it last year, bringing it back. Yes. Oh my, look at this. This is what we were just talking about. Bring your greatest hits back because not only do you make the best impact with them, but you're also able to get people to pay attention because they've heard it before. And now this is your year to take action. I will tell you that good copywriting in 2025 is no longer optional. It is a non-negotiable. If you want to be in business a year from now, this is the stuff that you need to be spending your time on. This is the stuff that we are making sexy and shiny again, because at the end of the day, this is the stuff that is going to help you get money into your bank account.

52:31It is these tiny little things that people often overlook that will make all of the difference. So you can save your seat for Ashlyn's free copy clinic at jennacutcher.com forward slash copywriting. Again, that's jennacutcher.com forward slash copywriting. We'll also link it for you in the show notes and description. Ashlyn, final question of the day. What is something that you are excited about? It can be life business. What's something that is exciting to you right now? Well, I love being a mom. I feel like in learning the game of being a mom with the business is a whole thing. I have a sourdough starter that's sitting on my counter that I just opened yesterday.

53:09I'm okay. So I'm, I'm entering, I'm going to call it my scrunchie era. So I'm like semi crunchy and I'm dabbling. I'm on my journey, but I'm excited about that. We're probably gonna do that with the kids this weekend. And I just, I love they're changing so fast. And so soaking up, I have a six, three-year-old and a one-year-old. So text me all the sourdough questions. It is also right now. It is a slippery slope. The chickens are coming soon for you, Ashlyn, because they're coming to our house in a couple weeks. So here we go. Here we go, baby. Buckle up. Oh my gosh. I'm so excited for your copywriting clinic.

53:48I will be there per usual. I'm always there cheering you on. And I just am so excited for our listeners to make their copies super clear to avoid confusion, to make this the year where it is copy that converts because at the end of the day, you can have the best offer on planet earth. And if you cannot clearly communicate it, no one is going to be taking advantage of it and you won't get to make the impact that you were born to make. So thank you, Ashlyn Carter, for your return appearance. I love you so much. And I'm so excited for people to learn more from you. Thank you, Jenna. So grateful. Love you too.

54:22I hope you heard the conviction in my voice today. I just have experienced the power of good copy. And I am obsessed with Ashlyn because all these years ago, she really brought it into my life and has taught me how to know how to continue to refine and rework the words that we're using in order to continue to get the results that we want to get. As a quick reminder, save your seat right now. I can tell you that you will learn so much from Ashlyn. I have paid her so much money over the years to write incredible copy. And now you can learn from her for free. Head to jennacutcher.com forward slash copywriting.

55:03That's jennacutcher.com forward slash copywriting so that you can attend her copy kit clinic. This is a free masterclass in all the things we talked about today and so much more. I will be there cheering her on. I love learning from her. She always has hot takes on what is working right now. And that is exactly what I want to know. And I hope that you join me inside again, last time, jennacutcher.com slash copywriting. I'll see you in the copy kit clinic. I hope you love today's episode as much as I loved recording it. Thank you so much for hitting play on another episode of the Gold Digger podcast.

55:37And of course, until next time, keep on digging your biggest goals. Thanks for pulling up a seat for another episode of the Gold Digger podcast. I hope today's episode filled you with inspiration, gave you information that you can turn into action, and realigned you with your true north in life and business. If you've enjoyed today's episode, head on over to golddiggerpodcast.com for today's show notes, discount codes for our sponsors, freebies to fuel your results, and so much more. And if you haven't yet, make sure you're subscribed so that you never miss a future show. We'll see you next time, Gold Diggers.

56:14Please note, this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements, and individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in the episode. Your support through affiliate links or sponsored content helps us continue to bring you valuable content. Thank you for being a part of the Gold Digger community.