A Nutrition Label for the Air You Breathe | Lution Co-founder David Vivero

0:00When I went through my home experience, I thankfully found my cancer in stage one.

0:06Halle: I found the mold in stage four. It was everywhere. There were cannonball-sized holes in the sheer wall of our home.

0:11David Vivero: Years, years to remediate.

0:13Halle: So we more than tripled the down payment on our house, trying to get it to be healthy. Now this is now my life's work. Today, Halle is recording live from the New York Stock Exchange,

0:23David Vivero: talking with three-time founder David Vivero about his new company.

0:30David Vivero: Welcome to the Heart of Healthcare podcast. I'm Hallie Teko.

0:34Halle: I'm Michael Esquivel. And I'm Steve Krause. And every Monday, we bring you the latest in healthcare innovation as we sit down with entrepreneurs and industry experts.

0:45David Vivero: So buckle up and join us as we figure out how to improve healthcare for all.

1:00David Vivero: Hello, listeners, and welcome back to the show. Today, we are recording from the New York Stock Exchange, and I am here with my friend, the three-time founder, David Vivero. David has started three companies. I've invested in all three of them. The first was in the real estate space. He sold it to Zillow. The second, Amino Health and Healthcare, sold to CapitalRx. And now you are working on your third startup, also in the health space, kind of combining both, which is so interesting. And we will talk about that in just a minute, but let's talk about your founder journey because it really takes, and I, we go way back and we're friends before our investor startup relationship and you've invested in my company too.

1:41David Vivero: So we've been back and forth. It really takes a crazy person to do it more than once. So tell us about your founder journey.

1:49Halle: Well, I mean, honestly, I feel like it's way before I was a founder. I've always been a kind kind of creator artist type person. I remember, you know, when I was a kid, just kind of always dreaming of having a business and then creating things and whether it was selling, you know, drawings and so forth. And in college, I think my senior year of college, I think 80 % of my classes were all independent studies working on projects and ideas.

2:09David Vivero: Yeah.

2:10Halle: And so, um, you're a

2:12David Vivero: zero to one guy.

2:13Halle: I'm, I'm a zero to one guy. I've, I've, I've never been someone who likes incremental. I've always been someone who likes imagination and, and just really sitting with something that feels energizing and making it happen. And so for me, the first one was in real estate, as I mentioned, or as you mentioned, and that business came from what I knew at the time. I grew up in residential real estate and I knew I wanted to be a technology entrepreneur. And so I married those and that was a great success. We had a great run and I loved being at Zillow and so forth. And I said, well, you know, I want to build a company that I can really build a consumer brand around.

2:51Halle: And that really touched people's lives more than what I was doing with the first company. And so that inspired Amino Health. And I have a condition called hereditary hemochromatosis. And that was the basis for starting Amino, was finding specialists and primary care doctors that had that experience. And so we raised tons of capital and built this huge data set. And we tried to pair people with doctors and hospitals that we thought were the most experienced, lowest infection rates, lowest cost for them. That was a circuitous journey. I had learned a lot about healthcare in that. And now Lucian feels a lot like those were educations because not only conceptually am I marrying those two concepts, when I tell you about the friends and colleagues and partners that I reached out to in starting Lucian, I told them my story and why I'm starting this, the number of people from industrial designers to software engineers, to lawyers, to whomever who allowed me to manifest, to just create this so quickly.

3:48Halle: It was because of all those experiences. And so I don't find this actually to be a really challenging way to live. I love doing this and it's actually gotten easier over time because of that education.

4:01David Vivero: Yeah. I think that there's something about, it's no longer novel that startups are hard. And so it's kind of like, okay, your first job at a school where like things are messy and you think that this is like the craziest workplace ever, just because it's the first time you've seen it. I think the same is true for entrepreneurship. And like the more experiences you have as a founder or even just as a startup employee, you kind of realize that chaos is normal and you just get better at dealing with that chaos. I do want to let our listeners know what you're doing at Lucian. But before we do that, Maybe tell me like your favorite lessons that you learned with your previous two companies that you are pulling in to your third time.

4:46Halle: Well, number one is, you know, working with people who you completely trust. The stories and the challenges and the business, the sales opportunities, the product challenges will be very different week to week. Yep. What happens every single day is you call on the same team of people to solve all those dynamic things. And if that's not solid, then you're going to fail. And so I used to always be like, oh, yeah, I guess it's, you know, I understand hiring is so important and it made sense. But abstractly now, looking back over this period of time, not only based on who I'm working with in this business, working with a lifelong friend who also worked with a complementary industry and environmental lab testing.

5:27Halle: We had no idea we'd work together.

5:29David Vivero: Yeah.

5:29Halle: And now it just is so obvious that we just are the perfect combination for this business, Michael Marino. No. So number one is just like...

5:38David Vivero: Over-index on the people?

5:39Halle: Over-index on the people. Number two is aligning capital to really the big milestones and gates of your business. Okay.

5:47David Vivero: Say more about that.

5:49Halle: Well, in the first business, I raised seed capital in 2008 when the markets were crumbling. And so I didn't really have any choices and I had no experience. And so I really had no ability to think of finance as strategic. It was survival. And so we raised money when we needed money. and that was the way it went. And we were very lucky that we built something that was incredibly strategic to an acquirer and that ended up having an exit. In the second business, we had a big, big vision and so we raised a lot of capital. That ended up creating a bit of a kind of, if you can think of like a puppy with lots of extra skin, hasn't quite grown into it yet.

6:25Halle: A little wobbly, a little unsure of itself. The big paws. The big paws, yeah. That's kind of, I believe, part of the mistakes of Amino was not having that alignment And it actually led to a pretty hard situation in 2019 where we had to buy the company back from investors, recapitalize it, and really launch into what it would be because the initial set of investors were not the investors for the second phase of that business. In this business, what I committed to with my partner was we are going to birth this business on our own dime. We're not going to raise capital to wander a little bit. It kept us honest.

6:59Halle: It kept us accountable. It allowed us to then raise capital when the idea was we need a balance sheet to execute on two or three things and we know them now. So you kept more ownership, too.

7:09David Vivero: I think what's interesting is that goes against what most people are told, which is raise as much money as you can. Like get as much money because you don't know the next time you're going to raise. But the lesson that you learned and actually what a lot of founders learn is that actually, if you kind of don't go into that valuation and then you're in the position of a down round or a recap and then it can kind of get messy. And so actually more money is sometimes more problem.

7:31Halle: A thousand percent. And it's just, it's not only the money, it's also the relationships and the timelines and the insecurities and all the things that you're bringing into your business, right? So when you work with another investor, they have a fun life and a fund and a strategy and some things that people that they're trying to answer to. You're subscribing to that whole chain of accountability. If your business is not ready for that, you may end up having to really push and pull in ways that are not good for your core mission.

7:59David Vivero: Yeah, I mean, they need the markup on the next round. That is like their number one KPI for their investors is that you have an up round. And so oftentimes what founders, I see founders do is they optimize for top line growth versus getting to a place where you're profitable or you have more durability. And so you have to make those trade-offs as a founder. But if you end up not hitting those top line growth, if you're optimizing for top line growth and you're not growing fast enough, you end up in a position where the investors basically abandon you. And then you're like, I should have gone for being sustainable and having a durable business.

8:36Halle: And in the early stages, you may not even know what business you're in, right? We were in a consumer business, and so we recruited investors who were really great at that. When we realized we really needed to partner with employers and payers, our initial investors were hands up, we don't really know this market. And so they couldn't even underwrite that ability to fund again. And that's why we had to just recap the business while it's in flight.

8:56David Vivero: Yeah. Crazy. Okay. So let's talk about Lucian and what you guys are building now.

9:01Halle: Sure. Lucian is a very personal experience. I was, we had just raised something like$80 million on Amino. We, I had recruited another person to be our CEO and take over. And part of that was because I would just had lost my mojo. I was taking hour and a half naps. I was not feeling. That sounds nice. Yeah. Not healthy. Not healthy. Yeah. Not for a 36 year old, 37 year old.

9:26David Vivero: Yeah.

9:27Halle: And I didn't know what was going on in my life, but I ended up getting seen by a professional. I ended up getting diagnosed with kidney cancer. I am now cancer free. Three years in, I had half my right kidney removed. Amino was a fantastic tool to help me find the right provider. But what it helped me do was solve the disease. What I didn't realize is that six months later, my wife's kidney function would start declining. So her EGFR was declining. She was on a path to chronic kidney disease in her thirties. My son was really the one who woke me up to this. And for a minute, I probably was going to name this company Mio after my son, because his symptoms were neuroinflammation.

10:09Halle: He was crippling anxiety and depression, urinating himself in a sort of developmentally inappropriate way at five. And we first took him to a psychologist and then we eventually found our way through a pediatrician, all to loop back to realize that our home was covered in mold and bacteria and that it was carcinogenic, toxigenic, and obviously at the very least allergenic to the rest of us.

10:33David Vivero: Was it a clinician that first told you, hey, you could have mold, you should test for it?

10:37Halle: No, what we ended up doing was I hired a man dressed as Spider-Man to come into my living room and draw my five-year-old's blood, which is not something that I anticipated I would ever need to do at that age. And it was through that realization that his immune system markers, they were on fire. And so that's what led us to believe based on the diet and so forth, that it must be something environmental. So what Lucian is, is for our family, we were the folks who checked the ingredient list on every box that goes into our pantry.

11:05David Vivero: I know your wife.

11:06Halle: We are very healthy in my household. We reverse osmosis filtering. Lucian's a nutrition label for the air you're feeding your family. And so we don't think about air as nutrition, but every day you take in 33 pounds of the stuff. That's five times as much food and water as you drink. And it contains stuff that obviously gives you life. It contains stuff that can really cause a burden on your immune system and on the rest of your body. And so we believe people deserve to know what they're breathing. And that's what Lucia is.

11:34David Vivero: Yeah. I mean, this concept of, I love the term exposome. And from a public health background, which I have, we were required to take an environmental health class for my MPH. And And I learned so much and I loved diving into that because it was practical advice that I could then bring home for my family. But I don't think any medical schools have environmental health, environmental health testing, water testing. I mean, I learned about the PFAS issues and pollution and all of that and that impact on health. But medical schools really aren't, as far as I know. Someone please write in and correct me if I'm wrong.

12:09David Vivero: But teaching this, and I find that most clinicians, they don't even have enough time to talk to you about the screenings that are, you know, on your list for that day, yet alone go into understanding your home environment. Like, there's such a disconnect between environmental health and health care in our country. Like, how did we get to this point where it's disconnected and what can we do to make environmental health and the exposome something that we understand the way we understand now the genome?

12:40Halle: Yeah. I mean, we're on that frontier. It's part of the reason that I'm equally sort of motivated from my heart as well as from my brain on this business, which is that on the intellectual side of this, it's very obvious that what we take into our body interacts with our own immune system and the rest of our gut lining and our kidneys and our liver and all this stuff. And it produces a reaction. And we are still on the frontier of a lot of this stuff. Just in, I want to say 2024, you remember in the Biden administration, they were paying to have people or creating regulations that would try to remove gas stoves from homes.

13:14Halle: And so only last year did they publish a study that came off of that. And you've got a -

13:19David Vivero: At the Cleveland Clinic.

13:20Halle: Exactly. And so you've got a$10 billion asthma drugs industry in the US. they removed the gas stoves from these folks homes and that was more effective than the asthma drugs and so i think that's just one sliver of the american health care industry i think when you look at blood pressure and how particulates in the air affect blood pressure when you look at the way that folks with heart disease interact with uh their environment when you obviously look at the way people with autoimmune conditions interact with their environment i have a belief and it's in the data that this will bear out. Now, where we are right now is that if an allergist wants to understand the environment, they're going to have to call someone with a jumpsuit and Ghostbusters equipment to come into your house and do this type of work.

14:07Halle: And it's not necessarily something that you can prescribe as easily as an inhaler. And so the idea of actually making systems that are prescribable, delivered as a kit, allow you to get the right type of resolution on this data that's useful is what I think enables clinicians to be able to have this conversation and to monitor what's going on. The same is true for insurers. And that's true, not just for health insurers who don't necessarily underwrite this stuff, which I think they will once they understand the impact, home insurers. When I went through my home experience, I thankfully found my cancer in stage one.

14:41Halle: I found the mold in stage four. It was everywhere. There were cannonball sized holes in the sheer wall of our home.

14:46David Vivero: Years to remediate it, right?

14:48Halle: So I was on, I talked to my wife about this all the time, just reflecting on this, this being in the desert for two years, because we had to bring our house down to the studs and do a renovation that we had no plan for all uninsured, all out of pocket. So we more than tripled the down payment on our house, trying to get it to be healthy. Now this is now my life's work. This is why I think this is so important. I think it's worth that investment. I don't think people need to go through that to be able to save themselves from that type of heartache.

15:15David Vivero: Well, it's so unfair too. As you said, it kind of is falling in between health insurance and home insurance. Like there's no no way for someone who is already low income or maybe, you know, this is their first home and this is like a big deal. Like either one of those will bankrupt them. The health going and getting the health care that you need as the result of whatever it could be mold, for instance, and then the remediation. How are we going to have to come up with a new insurance product? Is this something that maybe there'll be some government funding for to solve for? because the problem is becoming more prevalent.

15:47Halle: It is absolutely prevalent. It's also still, we're on the frontier of research, right? So like if you think about the latest understanding of mold before lution, was really this early 2000 study by the EPA, which created the Environmental Relative Moldiness Index. It studied 36 molds, and they did this test on a thousand homes to try and predict which homes dust, if you sequenced the dust and found what species of mold in it, which homes dust would predict that there's something structurally creating a damp building. That's really what causes someone to be sick. Well, fast forward 20 years, Lucian, we measure over 100 ,000 particles.

16:22Halle: A good portion of the things that we're measuring have never been studied. And so we're in this world where obviously we interact with our environment. There's a bunch of frontier work that's being done on this. And there is absolutely this almost kind of unknown liability that exists. It could be from a home buyer like I did. I bought this home in 2021. I had no idea I was taking on this responsibility. It could be from a homeowner's insurance company that's doing the same, or it could be from a health insurer seeing someone go down this cascade of this cytokine storm that's happening in someone's immune system that leads them to an autoimmune disease or worse.

16:59David Vivero: So maybe the solution is that sellers are required to do this as part of the home walkthrough and diligence, or when you sign your lease and you move in, you have to do this test and it has to be clear and declared safe for someone to move in.

17:15Halle: The applications are vast. It could be building materials and cleaning chemicals and so forth. But what we're trying to do with Lucian is say that there needs to be a nutrition label. There needs to be a shared understanding that understands what is in this air. So just to give you a sense for how old the science is, the EPA pushed all this research on understanding the mass of particles that are in the air. And when we think about clean air and AQI, it's about how much non-air is in this air. You weigh it on a scale, right? So if you were to buy an air quality monitor and you got a green light, it says, hey, there's a cubic meter of air and there's this much non-air in it.

17:52Halle: Good job. It's clean. The reality is it matters what that is, because if that is just skin cells and seafoam and other natural things that come from a horse farm, you're probably fine. But if it's brake dust, if it's black mold species, if it's things like that, then the inflammatory burden that is on your body is a ton worse. So there was actually studies finally done in 2024 that showed that even at low levels of mass and density of what's inside of the air, those can have 10, 20 times the effect on the body because it's nonlinear. If you have a small amount of particulates, if those particulates are coming from brake dust.

18:34David Vivero: Which is what? What's brake dust?

18:35Halle: Brake dust would be when you're driving a car and hitting the brakes. And it pollutes. So if you're living on the corner of like the 405 and the 10 in LA, that's a lot of what you're bringing into your body. That's way worse than the type of pollution that might be right on the coast, even though the metrics might make them look the same. So understanding how much of something is in the air and what is it is the missing part of this. And that's what we're trying to do.

19:00David Vivero: Okay. So how do we get this out to the people who need it most? because right now insurance isn't covering it, isn't covering the testing or the remediation. There's nothing required by law for landlords. And those who, you know, probably are at highest risk for mold homes are people that can't really afford any of this. And you're from Miami. So you also know that like mold is in certain areas at a higher prevalence in moist, hot climates, which because of climate change. So like when we think about environmental justice and being able to serve the most vulnerable people in our society, like how do we what do we what needs to change?

19:40Halle: Well, I believe in the long run, this should absolutely be reimbursed. That's a tall hill to climb. So we started this company as a public benefit corporation. So our job is to not only obviously produce a return for our shareholders, but I co-founded the business with a nonprofit. So how we're doing this is that we believe that there are a lot of people who live in environments that are bad for them from an inhaled health perspective. There are a lot of non-remediation things they can do to protect them from that. So first, maybe our equipment, our services can be used to give those people visibility.

20:14Halle: And therefore, maybe if they live in army barracks, that can make its way up to the head of DOD. Maybe if they live in government housing, that can make its way up to folks who are in a position of power on that. First is getting that profiled. And then secondly, again, there's a lot of things you can do in addition to ripping out a wall. Much better filtration, dehumidification, ventilation systems, better building envelopes that you can sort of you can do lots around that that allow someone to at least make it so that they're not the filter.

20:44David Vivero: Yeah.

20:45Halle: And so. So prevention. So prevention and then also doing things that actually change the environment. The thing about, I mean, if you look at even the relationship between air and dementia, there was a study from The Lancet in 2024. It basically said there's 45 % of all dementia cases are related to factors that you can actually control, understand, and so forth. Things you eat, do, and so forth. A good portion of those, 3 % of that, I think it's like a million and a half dementia cases, are related to air quality and air pollution. It's the one aspect that you can't change your behavior on. You need to change the environment.

21:22Halle: And 90 % of our breaths are indoors. It's the container we're living in. So yes, I would love for there to be less air pollution in the world. But if you can control what's happening in your enclosed space, you do a lot for your brain. So our view is that you start with measuring. Once you know what the problem is, you can diagnose. And we believe that if we're commercially successful, that allows us to be able to give products and give services away that allow those people to be able to access it.

21:46David Vivero: So I'm just thinking of Evan Bayer, who we both know from HBS. He and his wife also had mold issues in their house. And his wife, I'm blanking on her name, ended up starting a law firm just focused on justice for families that have been displaced because of these sort of situations. Yeah.

22:07Halle: I mean, it's the number of people that I've met who have gone through this and are changed. I mean, I view myself as seeing an entirely new dimension of life. I don't enter spaces now without being aware of how ventilated they are, what cleaning chemicals they are using. How are we at the New York Stock Exchange?

22:23David Vivero: I think we're doing okay.

22:25Halle: I've entered Airbnbs and those sorts of things. I'm just like, I can't do it. We moved out of one, you know, it's like, I just, I know my, how my body feels. And partly because I'm now so sensitive to it. I mean, Elizabeth, you know, my wife makes, you know, makes light of the fact that like, you can see it on my face. I, when I was in the middle of our mold issues, I had severe rosacea.

22:45David Vivero: Yeah.

22:46Halle: And so if I'm in an environment that is impacting my immune system, the very first measure is that my face will start to be inflamed. So everyone around me knows. Yeah. So unfortunately I don't scale well. So that's why I created the device, but I'm like a bulldog. Not to go into people's homes. Exactly, exactly. So, you know, my perspective on it is like anyone who's been through this really has changed by it. I think there's a whole world of people who, like me, they went through a remediation and Lucian's a perfect solution for them to stay vigilant and to know that it didn't come back. It's almost the equivalent of if you had a home invader and held your family by gunpoint, you'd put an alarm system in and you'd really make sure you lock the doors the next day.

23:25Halle: So there's folks like that, but there's also folks who are taking peptides and doing cold plunges and saunas and eating all the vitamins and supplements, and they are not optimizing or even aware of this vector. That to me is malpractice.

23:39David Vivero: We need to get Lucian to Brian Johnson.

23:41Halle: It is longevity malpractice if you don't think about how your air impacts your long-term health.

23:47David Vivero: Yeah, for sure. I think that having these conversations, hearing other people go through this, it's such an emotional experience. the folks that I know are just angry. They're angry at the person who built their home, the person they bought it from, because it is an expensive, time-consuming, scary, health-impacting experience to live somewhere that did not have healthy air. And so they're almost like evangelists for others to understand and prevent. And finally, now we have a product that can really help us make those measurements. And then once you do understand and get your nutrition label for your air, then what?

24:22Yeah.

24:23Halle: And just to your point, it's like Evan, Evan Baird, his family, they started a law firm. You know, if I were Taylor Swift, I probably would have written an album. My, my mechanism is software and technology. This is, this is, this is how I'm coping with that. You know, when you finally get the diagnosis, there's lots of things you can do, right? So just even, I'll give you an example of some of the people that already tested this. One person, major bacterial issues. Mold is not a big issue. They had bacteria, that bacteria tended to grow on rubber and metal. Turns out they needed to deep clean the gaskets around their dishwasher and their laundry machines.

24:56Halle: Those emit endotoxins. They create a lot of, if you ever like smelled the clothes that come out of a dryer and they just smell like dog or salmon or something like that, that's actually bacteria that's formed in those things. So it may be a cleaning, a deep clean kind of thing. Same thing. We had another person. And you're

25:13David Vivero: going to educate people on this. You're going to help them understand it.

25:15Halle: So that diagnosis turns into, well, you have a problem with dust mites. Well, dust mites thrive in environments with humidity over 65 % and you need to get a HEPA vacuum and you might do some different things around the upholstered areas of your home. With certain mold species, things like Stachybotrys and Catomium, these are different species of mold. They tend to need a ton of stagnant water. Usually that has to do with a pipe leak or issues around the flashing of windows, those sorts of things where water is getting in and getting trapped. They need lots of water and poor ventilation. That's an indicator of what's happening in the home.

25:51Halle: A different one, Aspergillus versicolor is a much smaller particle. It tends to grow on drywall with high consistent humidity environments. So it's kind of like if you think of Oura Ring or any of these other things, it's like how do you take signals about what's happening and use it to infer about the real environment? And so we're able to say you need to reduce your humidity. You need to increase your filtration. You're ventilating at all the wrong times. There might be a problem with what's called your building envelope, which means that you're getting outside air. And I can see it. I can see it in the cadmium and in the brake dust, as we mentioned earlier, that's coming in from outside.

26:27Halle: That doesn't get generated inside. So that diagnosis is a map. And what's great about Lucian is you still have this app. It can basically train you down to zero. And you constantly can retest after things happen. So if you did that cleaning, if you did that remediation, Lucian basically can tell you if it worked.

26:44David Vivero: And how is AI now enabling these tests to be just more personalized or the, I guess, the results being more personalized?

26:53Halle: Well, in a bunch of ways. One is we used AI extensively in helping us to perform all the research, going deep into the clinical research, trying to understand based off of what we could glean from all of our studies, what health effects have been found. help us navigate all the clinical research to make this case. So for example, one of our investors, they're basically a team of allergists and they love this. And part of what they were saying is, we need the insights up in front of us to understand what we're seeing and how does it impact health? Because it's not like we're reading the clinical research every single day, but if you can make that part of our app, that would be great.

27:30Halle: So AI has been very helpful to sort of bringing that research together. Obviously we used it for some of our technology development, Right. So we built a whole professional app that allows environmental inspectors and and clinicians to use this. We would not have been able with our small team of three to generate three iOS apps. So just the the amplification of our efforts has been.

27:52David Vivero: I imagine thinking back to RentJuice, your first company back in 2008. I just think about how much we spent on like like hundreds of thousands of dollars on like silly marketing sites, like websites, It's like landing pages. Exactly right. Six months and these agencies charge so much. That's right. Yeah, the way that businesses used to be,

28:15Halle: I mean, and I think about this, I had an investor meeting and they said, well, tell us where you think, what your goals are gonna be in three to five years. And I was just like, I'm unable to predict timelines anymore. I know what's important and I know how to prioritize. I could rank things, but I couldn't ascribe that's gonna be seven months from now because reality is I built something or we answered a question so much faster than I ever thought possible. recently. And so to me, AI has been this incredible amplifier, but I think it only works because we are doing two things. One is like, we are just profoundly curious about and passionate about this problem.

28:52Halle: And I think that drives us to ask the questions and create the experiments that, you know, other folks might not want to do. The reality of AI is that it makes it so you could start a company today and start a different company tomorrow and start another company by Friday. And you could test them all out. And so I think it means that the folks who are going to actually arrive at the answer are the ones who really deeply care and want to push hard in that one topic. And then the second thing that has been, I would say, really powerful about AI is that it's really reminded us, what are we doing that's durable?

29:25Halle: What are we doing that creates its own data set, that creates its own community of people that are trying to gather around one shared standard? The AI is great at building systems, but those systems are useless without a sense of like, what's true? Like what is the data that's powering this? And there hasn't been in the last 20 years, a study of a thousand homes since that EPA study. So we're excited to be the next one. Building out that data set.

29:54David Vivero: Amazing. Well, David, thank you so much for being here. Congrats on the launch. And we'll add the show notes, the links for people to check out the product.

30:02Halle: Thank you so much, Allie. Great to see you.

30:09David Vivero: Thanks for listening to The Heart of Healthcare. If you enjoyed this episode and you'd like to support the podcast, please leave a rating and review.

30:17Halle: And don't forget to subscribe. The Heart of Healthcare is produced by Hallie Tecko and hosted by Michael Esquivel, Steve Krauss, and Hallie Tecko.

30:25David Vivero: The show is engineered, edited, and mixed by Kyle Moore. Visit our website, heartofhealthcarepodcast.com, for show notes and details. you