Do school lunches really need an overhaul?

0:01Dylan Matthews:NPR.

0:11Cardia D. Smith:This is The Indicator from Planet Money. I'm Waylon Wong and I'm joined today by producer Julia Ritchie.

0:17Dylan Matthews:Hello. I came to talk about something most of us have had but not always enjoyed. School lunches.

0:24Cardia D. Smith:You know what I did enjoy? In middle school, getting the nachos, basically just corn tortilla chips with like reheated cheese whiz. That is basically my midweek meal still.

0:34Dylan Matthews:So, yes. Delicious. It's a classic. We recently covered the federal government's new inverted food pyramid on the show. Among other changes, it places meat and dairy alongside fruits and veggies. Public schools are supposed to follow these dietary guidelines in the meals they serve students.

0:49Cardia D. Smith:And school lunches are part of the Trump administration's broader Make America Healthy Again agenda. U.S. Agriculture Secretary Brooke Rollins told Fox News that officials want to raise standards for school lunches.

1:01Dylan Matthews:A lot of our schools don't even have an oven anymore. You know, back when I was growing up, the lunch ladies were back there cooking the meals on the stoves and then serving it. So how do we completely and fundamentally change the system to go back to where we're serving that healthy, whole food and nutrients to these kiddos? On today's show, do schools need another menu overhaul? We go back to the cafeteria to see what kids are actually eating and whether school districts on tight budgets can afford the latest changes.

1:33Dylan Matthews:This message comes from BetterHelp. International Women's Day is this March. Time to celebrate all women. The leaders, the caregivers, the hype friends, the how-do-you-do-it-all types. Women deserve to be reminded how much they matter and that therapy offers a space to care for themselves. BetterHelp makes it simple by matching you with a qualified therapist based on your needs and preferences. Visit BetterHelp.com slash NPR for 10 % off.

2:02Cardia D. Smith:This message comes from Dell. Dell PCs with Intel inside are built for the moments that matter. Like a big project that can't be interrupted by an update. With long-lasting battery life, you can stay focused on what matters. Built for you. Dell.com slash Dell PCs. Support for this podcast and the following message come from Rivian, makers of the all-electric three-row R1S SUV and the always capable R1T pickup. With impressive range, storage for any expedition, and technology that feels like second nature, Rivian vehicles are designed for those who seek to explore the planet and preserve it for generations to come.

2:43Cardia D. Smith:Learn more or schedule a demo drive at Rivian.com.

2:47Dylan Matthews:The debate over how to make school lunches healthier isn't new. You might remember former First Lady Michelle Obama's push to get kids to eat more veggies more than 15 years ago.

2:58Cardia D. Smith:Yes, I remember she enlisted Elmo to help.

3:01Dylan Matthews:So how do you guys feel about getting kids pumped up and excited about eating healthy foods? Elmo loves healthy foods. Yeah, Elmo thinks that fruits and vegetables are delicious. As part of her efforts, the U.S. Department of Agriculture did a major overhaul of its school lunch guidelines in 2010, putting limits on calories and reducing fat and sodium. And the Biden administration released a big update again in 2024.

3:29Cardia D. Smith:But it takes a while for these changes to make their way to school trays. For example, schools this year now have to limit added sugar in milk, cereal and yogurt. By 2027, they'll have a weekly limit of the amount of calories that come from added sugars for all breakfasts and lunch.

3:47Dylan Matthews:This is the sound of school lunch at Johns Island Elementary School near Charleston, South Carolina. Like most public schools, they participate in the National School Lunch Program, which reimburses them per pupil.

3:59Cardia D. Smith:Lunch starts at 11 a.m. Kids go through the line in single file and get to choose their lunch, like Zabion.

4:05Dylan Matthews:Can I ask you what you got to eat today? Uh, I have, um, teriyaki chicken with rice. What other kinds of lunches do you like to get here?

4:16Cardia D. Smith:Uh, pizza and macaroni and chicken nuggets.

4:20Dylan Matthews:Ah, the holy trinity of school lunches. At Johns Island, they have a hot meal option. Today, it's orange or teriyaki chicken with broccoli. Then there's what's called the cold option of a PB &J Uncrustable and a pack of goldfish crackers, which another kid named Jackson was drawn to.

4:37Cardia D. Smith:I might just get some of this cold lunch right over here because it has goldfish. Because goldfish is so good. Goldfish is so good. Plus one, goldfish is so good. I have a Costco-sized box of it in my pantry. They even have a salad bar, which Angela McLaughlin is especially proud of. She's executive director of nutrition services for the region's schools. It's really exciting when you see a five - or six-year-old gravitating toward a side salad instead of corn.

5:11Dylan Matthews:On any given day, Charleston County is serving about 16 ,000 kids for breakfast and 30 ,000 students for lunch across about 80 schools. It's not what people remember.

5:22Cardia D. Smith:We're running 80 restaurants every single day, and we're serving a great breakfast and a really wonderful lunch every single day.

5:30Dylan Matthews:Their meal program is self-operating. It's funded through a combination of reimbursements from the federal government and special sales, not its general operating fund for the school district. And that means every penny counts.

5:42Cardia D. Smith:For a student who qualifies for free lunch, the USDA will reimburse Angela's schools up to$4.71 per lunch. The rate is less for children who pay full price. It's only$0.44 per lunch. When Angela creates their meal plans for the year, she wants their cost per meal to come in lower, ideally around$2.15. When you're looking at your budget overall, you're looking at 40 to 45 percent on your food and supplies. And then you're looking at 40 to 45 percent for labor and staffing. And then the rest is indirect costs, direct costs, things like that. In order to get those federal dollars, schools have to follow the USDA's dietary guidelines.

6:25Cardia D. Smith:They must provide kids a fruit, a vegetable, a protein, a whole grain and milk. although they can't require kids to eat everything. In Charleston, kids have to pick three out of five components, and one has to be a fruit or vegetable.

6:40Dylan Matthews:The key here, Angela says, is they're giving students options. She says this system teaches kids to cultivate their palates. It also cuts down on food waste and lowers food costs for the school.

6:50Cardia D. Smith:We're not just saying, here's your trade, take everything on it. We're letting them pick, and then that affords them more buy-in to the process, and they can get what they want. So that really does impact the food cost.

7:02Dylan Matthews:On the day we visited, the price of that hot plate of chicken, brown rice, broccoli and fruit cost about$1.64, well within their budget. But other times the district splurges. Like at over$3, bone-in chicken wings do not come in under budget. So the district serves that with other less expensive things to average out costs.

7:21Cardia D. Smith:And remember, like we said earlier, it takes a long time for new guidelines to go into effect. As the Biden administration's rules are still playing out, the Trump administration is suggesting new ones. Among the proposals, increasing protein portions, reducing the number of ultra-processed foods, and putting an emphasis on making more foods from scratch instead of reheating items.

7:43Dylan Matthews:Diane Pratt-Hevner with the School Nutrition Association is skeptical. Her group represents 50 ,000 K-12 nutrition workers, including Charleston's.

7:52Cardia D. Smith:Schools have, for a long time, been trying to increase the amount of scratch and fresh prepared foods that they're serving students. But they're very limited in terms of budget, staffing, equipment, and infrastructure. So they will always rely on food companies to supply some of the items that they're offering with school meals.

8:14Dylan Matthews:Nearly 900 school districts and school nutrition professionals wrote an open letter to the administration this month with their concerns. It's not just the funding for upgrading kitchens. They're also worried about how the new Trump administration guidelines focus on costly meat but limit fiber.

8:32Cardia D. Smith:Furthermore, Diane says school lunches often get a bad rap, but that's an outdated stereotype. You know, schools are already meeting these calorie, sodium, added sugar and fat limits. So they've done a lot of the work. And there's research showing that school meals are actually the healthiest meals that Americans are eating today. because they're already meeting these standards.

8:55Dylan Matthews:We emailed the USDA to ask about rising costs and if schools could see a bump in those reimbursements. A spokesperson said these rates are adjusted annually and keep pace with food costs.

9:05Cardia D. Smith:School districts are doing a lot to increase healthy foods on their own. Like Angela and Charleston says, they do something called speed scratch with pre-made and fresh ingredients for the rotini sauce.

9:16Dylan Matthews:But even if they do make more food from scratch, kids may not want it. Ask any parent. It takes some convincing to get them to try new things. Angela says that's her biggest challenge to keeping kids healthy and fed in 2026.

9:28Cardia D. Smith:I think it's keeping them engaged and making sure that we are treating them as the very intelligent consumers they are.

9:39Dylan Matthews:Waylon, I tried the orange chicken at John's Island and it was pretty good. I'm not gonna lie. Did you get the little milk cartons too? Oh, I swiped two chocolate milks. Some habits die hard. No one else was taking milk, so I was like, I'm going to help myself here.

9:57Cardia D. Smith:This episode was produced by Vito Emanuel and engineered by Robert Rodriguez. It was fact-checked by Sierra Juarez. Kicking Cannon is the show's editor, and The Indicator is a production of NPR.

10:17Dylan Matthews:This message comes from NPR sponsor Charles Schwab with its original podcast on investing. Each week, you'll get thoughtful, in-depth analysis of both the stock and the bond markets. Listen today and subscribe at schwab.com slash oninvesting or wherever you get your podcasts. Support for NPR and the following message come from ID Tech. ID Tech is a summer camp for ages 7 to 17 with over 50 courses like BattleBots, AI, coding, game design, and more. Visit IDTech.com and use code IDTech to save$150.