Research Behind Influence w/ Brooke Duffy

0:00So I've talked to creators, especially from marginalized communities, who are quite fearful about something like, you know, tagging their video LGBTQ or Black Lives Matter, whatever it may be because they want their content to resonate with their audience and be seen by the audience. but you don't know where your content is going to end up.

0:21Hey, Brooke, welcome to the show. How are you? I'm great. Thanks so much for inviting me to be here today. Absolutely. Today, I'm very curious to talk about certain topics that are there, right? But too many times I think that we don't discuss about them, right? So I'm very curious to see your point of view, your research, your analysis, you know, behind that. And before we get into that, I would love to hear, you know, a bit more about yourself. and we use this thing called the map with our guests. Basically, it's divided in three main sections to know a bit more about you, your career, your personal life.

0:54It's basically divided in the mission. So basically, it is what do you aim to achieve with your work, achievements. So any notable milestone could be in your career, your life, or both, if you want. And the last one is the purpose. So why do you do what you do? I am Brooke Aaron Duffy, and I am an associate professor in the Department of Communication at Cornell University. So in terms of the mission, what do I aim to achieve? I mean, I'm an academic. And so I think a lot about the creation of knowledge. But what does that mean? Well, I'm interested in producing knowledge on the role of social media in work, employment and society with particular attention to labor.

1:30And of course, that brings me to the creator economy. You know, another part of my mission as an academic is educating students. And so undergraduates, of course, many in the communication world interested in working in comm, in tech, in marketing, in media, in the social media economy. But I also train graduate students who are very much interested in thinking about what social media means in the context of culture and society and economy and politics. It's always strange to talk about your achievements. And so there's the, you know, the milestones that matter for tenure and promotion. So I've published three books, most significantly a book called Not Getting Paid to Do What You Love, which was drawing attention to the work and labor of what we now think of as creators as they think about the difficulties of the difficulties as well as opportunities of career success.

2:24currently working on a new book, which I think we'll get into on the creator economy. A huge milestone for me was getting my PhD. I'm a first-generation college student. I went to a state school, an excellent one, Penn State, but getting a PhD was never on my radar. And so I always like to talk to students about that. And finally, in terms of purpose, why I do what I do, I mean, part of it is I think there's such a lack of understanding about what it means to work in the social media economy. And part of it is just, because it's changing all the time, but there's also a sense of dismissiveness or misunderstanding or even lack of value ascribed to these careers.

3:04And so, you know, one of my purposes is to draw attention to what it actually means to work in these fields. But I think, you know, part of this is also because so much of our lives are reconfigured by social media and labor. And so how can we think and understand the relationship between these two, when whether you're a creator or an academic or working in the gig economy or working in any field, you're very much compelled to put yourself out there. And so thinking about what the benefits are, but also the risks. And I think that what you do is very important because when I was myself in college, too many times I was studying things that have been very outdated.

3:43And I understand that many times you do have to study things that like, you know, theory or certain things, right? When it comes to marketing and business, right? Right. But sometimes there is a lack. Right. When it comes to studying things that are from the 80s and then understanding what is happening these days. Right. And then I think it's very important. That's also why sometimes I do also myself lectures. Right. For students where we go through. OK, this is what is happening these days. This is how you should approach it. Right. From a professional standpoint, together with also analytics.

4:14Right. And academic point of view. So very important is what you do very much needed these days. right because again there is sometimes this gap right between what you see in the real world right and what happens sometimes in academia and there has always been this sort of lack right of a few years right sometimes yeah to arrive there so so thank you for for your work there very very important and let's get into that so you know your graduate seminar is called you know there is this structure right that i found also very interesting that is called the platforms power and precarity in the creative economy, right?

4:46So I would like to know a bit more about that. Is it something that you come up with that? Like, tell me a bit more, how did it start? And why do you think that was needed to discuss about this three piece? Absolutely. And so I was very excited to develop and teach this course. And it started, I taught a version of it maybe six or seven years ago, which was on media technology and society. and so when I went to revive the class last semester realized as you can imagine that a lot of the not just the readings were out of date but the topics the approaches the the research and so you know thought about what is it that that we're talking about when we are considering work as an influencer or creator economy and how can we make a lot of the debates and topics connect with both my students, but really, you know, the wider world of social media and tech.

5:44And so for me, a lot of the debates about what it means to be a creator today, what it means to produce content, what it means to be an entrepreneur, to have your career dependent on a particular platform is to think about the struggles of power. You know, at what point do we have agency of our work compared to moments when we're beholden to platforms or we're tied to the expectations of audiences or advertisers. So there's the power platforms, of course. You know, we're seeing this in the past two weeks as once again, the TikTok ban seems to be looming. How do creators think about longevity and sustaining their business when the platform that they have built their audience could potentially vanish with little notice?

6:27And finally, precarity. And precarity is one of these academic terms that gets thrown around a lot, but we can think of it as the insecurity of a job. And so that means, coming back to the example of TikTok, maybe the platform that you have your audience on may not necessarily be there, or the content that you expect to do well is suddenly not garter an audience because of this unseen algorithm, or the brand deals aren't coming in because of some wider force. And so the allure of creator careers is the fact that you never know what the next day is going to be like, but that's also a form of risk.

7:06And so a final thing I'll say about the class is as much novelty as there is ascribed to this, I think it's really important to draw continuities between what TikTokers and YouTubers and Instagram influencers do today compared to the precursors. And so thinking about working in Hollywood or traditional advertising or film or as a novelist, there's important continuities that I don't think get enough attention when we are considering the world of cultural work today. And, you know, in addition to precarity, right, the risk, especially when it comes to brand deals, right? One month you can do fantastic, another month you can go, you know, like zero, right?

7:46And that's why also in other episodes we discussed about different revenue streams, maximizing your revenues, minimizing the risk of putting all the eggs in one basket. There is absolutely something that I think is becoming more and more important instead of being only on one platform trying to. Or like owning your audience. In other episodes we talk about newsletters having email address of the people so you can actually reach all of them if needed. Especially with algorithm changing all the time. In addition to this, another topic that I think is quite interesting that you also cover is this, I think we call it the visibility bind, right?

8:20So basically it's this concept, right? And I would like to know, like with something that you come out also know with a term that would be also interesting to see. These things where we have this like double-edged sword of hyper-visibility. Someone that, you know, with just a camera and an internet connection these days, you can get in front of a million of people. And we have pros and cons of that, right? Have you mapped the top pros and cons of this, again, hypervisibility that gives you, I guess, a lot of benefits, but at the same time, risk, problems, issues, burnout, and so on? So I'm curious to hear from you on that.

8:55Yeah, thanks for that. I'm currently working on a book on the topic that, going back to your early point about the academic lag, I'm trying to finish this project and knowing that it'll be out a few years down the road. But essentially, the concept of the visibility bind draws attention to some of the precarity and risks that creators face, where, of course, their careers are contingent on reputation, attention, and these metrics of visibility, very indices of visibility. So in thinking about what it means to be visible today, to put yourself out there today, I found that creators experience these two quite contradictory experiences and anxieties.

9:38One, of course, is the fear of being invisible. So maybe the algorithm is going to throttle your content today or you are going to wake up and have a, you know, a ban or be blocked out of your account or potentially the shadow ban. And there's a lot of fuzziness surrounding that. Or, you know, invisibility also means you're not getting compensated enough, right? Your brands are reaching out to you, but they're paying in this promise of exposure rather than any sort of compensation. And so this to me felt like the risks of invisibility for creators. But at the same time, there's the fears of being too visible.

10:10And so, you know, you want to get your content out there, but what if it could seem to, you know, quote unquote, the wrong audience? Or if you're dealing with hate and harassment or, you know, quite different kind of fear of commercial hypervisibility is appropriation, right? We're seeing a lot of these risks animated by Gen AI where how do you think about ownership and permissions and the fact that your content may be taken, exploited, utilized by someone else without your knowledge or consent. And so, you know, I kind of started these projects separately. I was studying influencer hate and harassment at the same time that I was doing this project on algorithms.

10:51And I realized that this is all about visibility and this visibility trap that many creators find themselves in. And so much of the book talks about the trap, but also importantly, the ways that the creators are contesting and resisting the visibility bind. And I think that's a really important part of it because creators know how to work social media. Their careers depend upon it. And so I think it is critical to consider the ways that they are pushing back against surveillance and platform powers and various inequities. But kind of what ties this together is this notion of visibility bind. Is your brand ready to amplify its reach?

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12:05And for instance, you know, I find all the time you already kind of mentioned it about getting in front of the wrong audience. Sometimes it happens to me to find the same video on TikTok and then Instagram or YouTube shorts, and you will see, I think it's very interesting as a study, when you take the same video from the same creator, post it on free for different social media, and then in addition to that, seeing if that video is seen by followers versus non-followers. And it's quite interesting to see the type of comments. Like I noticed that sometimes, make an example, maybe there is a creator that is well known by their audience for their acting, like in a way of doing things, or, you know, a very niche tone of voice or whatever, right?

12:46When it gets in front of their followers, these people know, right? Okay, it's the style of this person. But then when it gets pushed on social media to non-followers, then the top of comments, they don't get the reference, right? It's totally different. So have you ever, I'm curious, have you ever studied or done any analytics or research or something like that? Again, same content from the same creator to followers versus non-followers. and also like how do they get like on different social media? I'm curious to see if there is something that you ever explored. That would be a fantastic study and I want to see it done.

13:23No, I haven't, but I've heard many accounts from creators who talk exactly about that where, and you know, the euphemism of course is doing well. And so something they'll post on Instagram does, you know, does well, resonates well with their audience, gets a lot of positive commentary. And then TikTok, you know, the algorithm, them, the black boxed force lands in discoverability, ends up getting seen by a different audience that has very different views. And so that's where we get into discussions about like rage baiting or engagement baiting. And so how do you create content for your audience when there's the reality that you don't necessarily know where the content is going to be seen?

14:07And so I've talked to creators, especially from marginalized communities who are quite fearful about something like, you know, tagging their video LGBTQ or Black Lives Matter, whatever it may be, because they want their content to resonate with their audience and be seen by the audience. But you don't know where your content is going to end up. And so that's where, you know, even going back to my earlier example of to what extent can we map social media creation onto earlier careers? It doesn't quite work the same way, right? Because if you're working in a traditional TV or magazine environment, you know, production distribution exhibition, we have kind of a clear lineage where now because of algorithms, because of practices of sharing and even hate sharing, because of the potential of audiences who can, in a lot of ways, weaponize content, there's so many ways where you can't really anticipate where your content is going to be seen and by whom.

15:05And when you collect all this data, right, for instance, for this new book that is coming. Is it a combination of one-on-one conversation with creators? Is it like with that together with, let's say, quantitative surveys? Tell me a bit more about the methodology there to understand what is your typical day slash week in order to collect all this data and then translate that into a book that can be understandable, like, you know, from also people are not necessarily in the industry. Yeah. And your question about a typical day or typical week, I feel like that the response to that is very much like a creator, like everything is different every day.

15:40And the reality is I'm spending like most of my time managing email. But I tend to rely upon qualitative interviews. And so I've done about 100 interviews so far, mostly with creators, also with industry experts and platform representatives. And, you know, I have hundreds and hundreds of pages of interview transcripts that I go through. I, you know, what researchers call qualitatively code the data to pull out themes and make connections. You know, I consume the content myself and think it's really important when you're talking about creators to draw attention to how much of their lives and careers are reflected through what they create.

16:24And I also like I as I keep mentioning my interest in looking about the precursors of this, like I find myself going back to early studies of the celebrity publicity machine or studies of like TV audiences to think about what's new here and what's not necessarily new here. And so I was looking at this TV sociology book from like the early 80s. And the author talks about how TV executives were really centered on like predicting the unpredictable. And it's just like what we were talking about, right? I mean, that's what creators do. You're trying to manage uncertainty and contain some of the risk when you really can't, because not only are we thinking about an oversaturated attention economy and these unseen algorithms.

17:07But, you know, so much of this content reflects what's going on in the world around us. And like those trends can't be anticipated. And so, yeah, it's a lot of reading and trying to make sense of the data and having interview conversations and, of course, just like sitting down and writing. And so for me, the best time to write is first thing in the morning. I feel like my brain starts to wane after like 9 a.m. So I get up very early and get my writing done so I can, yeah, have a little more space to continue to have the conversation. And I'm pretty sure that during this conversation, one of the things that you also discuss with influencers and content creators is also all the monetary aspects of this, right?

17:47If we take influencer marketing of 10 years ago, it was this hobby thing where maybe I'm going to get a product for free. I'm going to do 50 bucks, right? And everyone was happy at the time because it was so new, it was unregulated, it was the Wild West. But then in the years, right, we kind of have a sense of how much to pay influencers based on deliverables, geolocation, industry, metrics, and so on. If you're represented, if you're independent and so on. So now we do have a better sense. I still believe that we're kind of far away from having rate cards that can work for everyone because it's so, again, it's so unique, right, the influencer marketing world.

18:26So with that said, again, I'm pretty sure that you discussed about that. And one of the things that more and more is coming up is about influencer pay gap, right? So first of all, if it's something that you discussed with creators, I would like to see if there's anything that they said is a challenge, is an issue. I would like to understand if this is actually something that came up. And if so, why? Like, you know, trying to understand a bit like, you know, the cause of that. And yeah, I would like just to understand a bit more. Again, it's such an important topic. So I would like to see you as a researcher, right?

18:58What did you find out about that so far? Yes. And so your point about how much has changed over the past 10, 15 years. I mean, my last major research project before this was on the gendered inequity in the emerging influencer space. And so I found so many examples of influencers expected to do what I call aspirational labor, where, you know, here, do this work and we'll give you free swag. or we'll post about you on our Instagram account, but no material rewards. And so, again, fast forward a few years, and in some ways there's a lot more money to go around, but it's still incredibly lopsided.

19:37It is a winner-take-all economy where, you know, we hear the accounts of the people making tens, hundreds of thousands of dollars for a post and not about the so-called creator middle class where people are, you know, kind of doing okay or in some ways scrambling a bit based on what's going on in the larger economy. Survey data suggests that, you know, women and creators of color are facing structural inequities within these spaces, where if you look at the payment systems, there is a staggering gap. And so I've still, even in this latest round of interviews, heard people that are like, yeah, brands will reach out to me.

20:14And when I when I send them my rate card, they're like, oh, we don't have a budget for that. And so, you know, there's a lot of reasons we can think about larger inequalities. We can think about the devalued status of labor. I mean, there's still this like generational hand wringing when someone says, oh, I want to be an influencer and creator. And people are like, oh, you just post all day. And it's like, no, it is incredibly labor intensive. And I mean, you know this very well, how much time, energy, insight and money goes into this space. But I think it's still not valued by brands or, you know, a lot of platform companies are courting high profile creators, but not necessarily the middle tier, despite how much attention they bring to the companies.

20:57And so, you know, that goes back to this question of like, why does this still persist? Well, there is a lack of transparency. It is a sprawling industry where, you know, it's not like we can trace the lineage into one particular company. There are so many players. It is so complicated to think about where, you know, power and accountability lies. That said, I've been talking to influencers and creators during these interviews about, you know, what they're doing within this space. And I think, you know, the emergence of these pay transparency sites. I think you did a show recently about Fuck You Pay Me, the Clara for Creators.

21:36I think it's, you know, we're seeing these spaces where creators are coming together and kind of challenging this notion that it's incredibly individualistic by saying, look, there are forms of collective advocacy and support. where we are trying to push back against the wider inequities. I've talked to a lot of creators who say, like, we share just with those in our network because otherwise you don't know. You have no idea how much the person next to you who on the surface has the same number of followers and is doing the same kind of work and creating the same kind of content. But, you know, it's this race to the bottom in terms of payment.

22:10So I think there's important spaces that are emerging to kind of contest this. But yeah, absolutely, the inequities and the exploitation remain rife. and again I think also because it's so 10 years ago was the wild west and to me still it is sometimes because I just feel there is like a lot of confusion there is sometimes you know terminologies using you know different ways miscommunication misunderstandings lost in translation many times right so I really do believe that we're gonna need absolutely a better structure and this and hopefully right this whole problem is gonna go away at least you know try to decrease the most possible in the next years.

22:45And just to, you know, also know a bit more, because, you know, we discussed about what was before, right? And about the present. But I'm pretty sure also that when you talk with all these influencers and content creators, you might also add a sort of idea of what the future holds. Maybe in terms of prediction of, okay, this is happening right now. But, you know, creators would like to see these together, like, you know, maybe in the relationship with their viewers, right? Or creators would like to see this happening so i'm curious if during your conversation again in addition to what is happening now everyone's like at a grasp of okay creators viewers this is what they expect to happening maybe i don't want to say in the next five years because five years in the creative economy it's it's crazy just about it but let's say in the next 12 months let's put it like that okay so that's that's more manageable i have been struck by the ways that creators are speaking out against some of the less auspicious elements of this career.

23:42And so I hope we continue to see more of that. In terms of looking ahead, I do think the relationships between creators and fans is a really important space to pay attention to. And the emergence of fan communities who are really ready to rally on behalf of the creators and emulate some of the practices we would think of in the world of traditional media. I think given the precarity in the social media environment, We're going to continue to see more diffusion in terms of, you know, more merch, more platforms, more educational offerings where creators push back against that all eggs in one basket culture or embrace the all eggs in one basket culture.

24:22And which, of course, makes sense as a risk mitigation strategy, but that amounts to more work at the same time. But I think, you know, overall, I, having been studying this for so long, I'm cautiously more optimistic than I was when I started this research about, you know, the potential for creators to rust back some of the power and economics within this space. Well, that is good, right? Because usually the more data that you have, many times, like, oh, it's going to go, it's not looking well, right? But if you say, like, actually, I'm more optimistic, that is great, great, great to hear on that.

24:58And is there anything else that I didn't ask you today that you would like to share with us, either about something that you're studying these days or anything else that excites you in the creative economy slash influencers slash even celebrities or like on more traditional media? The only thing I'll say, and I am, as anyone who's been working on a project for a few years, you can't wait to start the next big thing. I'm like, I just need to get this book out and move on. And so I've been thinking a lot about kind of going back and thinking about the role that celebrity paparazzi played in perhaps being a precursor to creators' representational practices.

25:38And that's kind of as far as I've thought about it. But, you know, there's a lot of attention to what what happens when a career is usurped by the newest thing. And we, you know, we think about journalism being killed and magazines being killed. But, you know, thinking about what happened to the celebrity paparazzi industry and how that might help us make sense of social media. And of course, like anyone else, I'm trying to make sense of how Gen. AI is reshaping this space, but also if it is reshaping the space, because, you know, there's a hype machine there. And so how do we cut through and think about both the promises, but also the perils for creators?