Microcap Mastery: Exploring Tiny Titans with Pieter from Compounding Quality

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2:37All right, folks. Welcome to Investing for Beginners podcast. Today, we're excited to have our friend Peter back from Compounding Quality. He's here to talk to us about a new venture that he's starting called Piney Titans, where he's going to focus on microcaps. And this should be a fun conversation. I don't invest in microcaps, so I'm looking forward to learning a lot about this. So Peter, welcome back to the show and thanks for joining us today. Thank you so much, Dave. It's always a honor and always a lot of fun to be here. So I'm truly looking forward to our conversation and hopefully we can at least teach some people in the audience something new over the next few minutes.

3:15Yeah, that would be awesome. All right. So why micro caps? What about micro caps is intriguing enough to you that you would be willing to start focusing on investing in these companies? Yeah, it's a great question. Let's start with the essence, right? So tiny titans. So the goal is to identify companies that are still tiny today small caps micro caps as you mentioned but the potential to become titans so to become very large companies in other words you're trying to look for companies with a lot of upside potential and just like apple is a titan today just like microsoft amazon is a titan today you try to identify them while they are still tiny so companies that have the potential to go 10x 20x maybe even best case scenario 100 beggars or 100x well i think there are a few reasons why i think tiny titus is so interesting and why yeah the concept and the micro caps are so interesting and first and foremost well i think you see that with a lot of famous investors the best investors in the world look at warren buffett look at in the quality investing space look at terry smith chuck acre francois rochon and so on they're very successful investors but what you typically see is that in the beginning of their career their outperformance is phenomenal if you just look at warren buffett for example in the 1960s he had an average annual return of almost 30 per year compared to six percent for the s &p so an outperformance of 24 per year every single year and then well he's very successful he's an amazing investor the best investor in the world people also notice that warren buffett starts to compound so he becomes larger and the essence is well the larger you get the harder it is to yeah perform exceptionally well so berkshire hathaway for example is still outperforming the market but if you look at the chart you will see that it's gradually declining over the years.

5:28And it's also something that he said, well, everyone who says that size doesn't hurt performance is selling. So that's something that's really important in general. And I think that also makes complete sense from a gut feeling. If you have Apple, for example, compared to a small company that is doing 5 million in revenue, I'm just making the numbers up right now, it makes complete sense that it's way easier for the company of 5 million revenue. And let's say they are in cybersecurity or AI. It's way easier for them to 10x their revenue compared to Apple, for example, because if Apple would 10x their revenue, they would probably produce more iPhones than human beings in the earth.

6:11And every human being needs to own three, four iPhones, which just isn't reasonable. So in other words, a lot of large numbers, the smaller you are, well, the easier it is for you to grow. And that's why those tiny companies or small companies, those micro caps are often so, so interesting. It has also been proven. If you take Jeremy Seigel, for example, he has written an excellent book, Stocks for the Long Run. Well, over the past 100 years, over the past century, small cap stocks outperformed large cap stocks by 4 % per year on average, which is already phenomenal. And what you are then, what I personally believe is when you combine small cap companies and you use the quality characteristics within those small companies, well, that would hopefully set you up for a phenomenal performance.

7:04So in short, I would say the microcups are really interesting. And maybe also something I started to notice over the past few months with compounding quality, for example is well i think today compounding quality has 1.5 million readers across all channels half a million email subscribers when you write when i write about a small cap company or micro cap company well often and you have some examples like fit life brands like chapters group the stock price goes up by eight nine percent just because you're right about it and i don't think that's yeah you don't want to be in that yeah you don't want to influence stock prices in general so that's why i thought there was a high need to do this and create something that is rather exclusive but that focuses on really finding those small companies with a lot of upside potential that's awesome how are you digging around for these companies are there more opportunities these in the smaller space or is it pretty like okay you could look for 3 000 companies that are small 3 000 companies that are medium size 3 000 companies that are big so like what what's the size of the pool and then how are you fishing in that pool yeah sure i think that's also a great thing and and one thing maybe to add before answering all the questions so i used to work in the industry used to be involved in managing a daily our daily management of an equity fund with 200 million in assets under management.

8:32And even we, our fund, we couldn't invest in companies under 10 billion in market cap. We just wouldn't. And managing 200 million is very small in a global perspective, in a Wall Street perspective. So if you have large funds on Wall Street and anywhere else, everyone is investing. Everyone is almost obliged to invest in the large companies. That's also why in the small cap space, the market is way less efficient. Well, Warren Buffett said go where competition is weak. That's in the small cap space. The market is way less efficient there. But the hard thing or the sad news is there's no information about those companies.

9:14Sometimes you literally need to use AI tools to translate the annual report from Polish to English. Just because there's no English communication on the website, for example. which is quite funny nowadays so the first thing i would highlight is you really need to do your own homework in this space but i think in general to find interesting small caps it's very important to use a very rational very strict approach so worldwide there are 60 ,000 companies i think we all agree that you can't analyze them all so first thing that i personally did is filter out all the companies with a market cap above three billion so then a lot of companies are are not in the list anymore and then i'm filtering for the quality criteria so you want a high return on invested capital you want a high or a healthy balance sheet so a low net debt on ebitda you want a high profit margin you want most profits to be converted in free cash flow and then i think one of the most important things for the small companies is they are small but we they are tiny but we want them to become tight that's right so those small companies must be active in the markets that can grow very attractively in the years ahead in other words the golden goose here is that you find a company that can still reinvest all its earnings all its free cash flow in organic growth and when you achieve that well then you have something phenomenal so this is something we have been doing over the past nine months using a stock screener and based on those quality investing criteria more or less 300 companies remained so made it to the list and then we took those 300 companies and we started filtering everything down and being even more strict looking into us ourselves looking into the ceo because management is so so important in terms of small caps and that's how you how we arrived at the watch list of 94 small cap micro cap high quality stocks and that will be the base to to build our portfolio on and maybe one extra important point to highlight on this one is i think what's also extra important for those small cap stocks is if you want to look into apple for example nowadays it's very very unlikely that you will still find information yourself that is not available on the internet or that other investors don't know but for those very small companies sometimes those are companies that you can't literally can't find anything about on the internet.

11:59It's also very important to, yeah, just go out there and just not only sit behind your laptop and read 10Ks and make your investment cases, but also go out there and meet the CEO, start with management, because this can literally give you insights that might not be available anywhere else that only you have. And I can give you one concrete example about it, but I'm afraid I can't give the company name. But while this summer, I also traveled to, yeah, I traveled quite far. I think it was a travel of 10 hours to meet the CEO and we talked for 90 minutes one-on-one. And then I wrote some kind of report I wanted to use and I sent it to him.

12:41Look, is it okay if I use this? And he basically said to me, well, you can't do that because this is information that's, yeah, it's not available online. And when you would send something like this out, it could be harmful for us because our competitors might look at it as well. They might try to copy-paste us. So that's not a great thing. But the fact that you went out there, that you spent traveling an entire day to meet the CEO and having and receiving that insight, well, that can still give you an edge as an investor. I think that's what it's all about. Yeah, that's cool. Well, when I think of microcaps, just stereotypically, I don't think of a lot of profitable companies.

13:21So it's cool to hear that you're talking about companies that have ROIC. They are profitable. They are efficient already. Makes it sound a lot more appealing than trying to throw a dart at some profitable company and hope it one day figures it out. Yeah, I think that's also a very important point you make. And we briefly touched upon that. And in general, small caps, for example, outperform the market by 4 % per year on average. But what's interesting is when you would take the small caps and you would filter out all the companies that are still loss making with a negative free cash flow, the outperformance would increase to something like 6 % per year on average.

14:04So filtering those out is an exceptional way to do that. I made the exercise as well. obviously this is a very long time period but if for example if you would have invested thousand dollars in the S &P 500 in 1926 so 99 years ago you would have more or less 25 million if you would have taken only the small caps and applied some to some extent high quality criteria because let's be honest with each other in the 1930s and so on not too many data were available But then you wouldn't have 25 million like in the S &P. It would be more something like 130, 140 million, which is an amazing difference.

14:45So if you are able to outperform slightly a few percentage points for very long periods of time, well, thanks to the power of compounding, the differences become very, very large. That's awesome. Yeah, like Andrew, I have this misconception or perceived notion that when you start talking about micro caps, you're really thinking about like the penny stocks and that kind of thing. And whenever I connotate those two things, even though I know realistically they're not the same, but that is something that I connotate towards that. And every time I talk to somebody that's focusing on smaller and micro cap companies, they reassure me that, no, there is a universe out there beyond that.

15:34So it's reassuring to hear that, to Andrew's point, we can find companies that have ROIC or ROE or free cash flow and those kinds of things. So I guess, is your criteria similar that you would use for compounding quality with Tiny Titans as far as how you identify these 94 companies that you were talking about? Is it kind of running through similar filters? Yeah, I would say on your first point, a lot of those small caps are small for a reason. And in general, there are multiple roads that lead to Rome or multiple roads that lead to heaven. but I think if you are it's I think it was Peter Lynch who said well if you were investing in the the next big thing or the next hot stock thing you will probably be very disappointed as an investor and turn around seldom turn so that's also the approach you are using here so in general well are you using the same criteria the same philosophy for tiny tights that's compound equality I think in short, the answer is yes.

16:43And I think it's very promising or it may sound very exciting to try and look for the next moonshot within the small cap space and AI loss making company with a market cap of 50 million. Where someone on the Internet says, well, this is going to 50 billion. Yeah, the odds that you will achieve this is very, very unlikely. And it's funny that you ask because at Compound In Quality, we always use seven criteria. to identify a company seven criteria you want to see to yeah make this investment worldwide which is you want a healthy balance sheet you want skin in the game so the founder still be involved you want low capital intensity great capital allocation skills attractive historical growth attractive yeah attractive outlook so those kind of things are also the things you want at but they're small companies and when you apply these characteristics to the small cap world well i would say i think 98 percent of all the available small caps are already filtered out but that's not a bad thing if you ask me as long as the companies that remain um and they're still are you have enough companies they have plenty of website potential so with compound equality I've also always said that I think that's doable for quality investing, that the goal is to outperform the market by 3 % per year on average.

18:12So if you do the math, I think what for the S &P 500 you can achieve or you can expect a return of 7 % to 9 % per year. So for compounding quality, I've always said, look, we want to achieve a return of 12 % per year on average. Hopefully we will achieve that. I think right now the compound annual growth rate for the portfolio is a bit above 20%, which is great. But let's be honest with each other. Also, just the stock market has been a great place to be in over the past few years. Everyone is a genius in a bull market, right? And in a bear market, stocks return to their rightful owners. So that's also something you can say.

18:49But getting back to the topic, so S &P 500, 7 to 9 % per year. Compounding quality, 12%. Then the goal, I think, for tiny titles or for small companies is that you want to invest them. And you won't like to invest in them when you don't think the company can double every five years. So in practice, that would mean that you achieve a return of 15 % per year, which is quite ambitious, to be honest. But I think that's what you could expect. And then you can also say, okay, with compounding quality, you want 12%, Peter, with tiny titans, 15%. So let's invest everything in tiny titans or let's invest everything in this high-cap, high-quality, small-cap stocks.

19:33I don't think that's the right approach. Why? Because risk and return are always tied to each other on the stock market, right? So it's true that in the high-quality, small-cap space, the upside potential is higher. but there is also more risk and many of you and i'm sure you you both have a friend book david andrew the book from chris mayer about 100 beggars it's amazing if you can have 100 beggar in your portfolio but you need to expect some some some losers as well if six out of your six out of ten stock picks of you are successful ones you will do really really well on the stock market So for example, just imagine that you have 10 ,000 to invest right now and you invest $1 ,000 in 10 stocks.

20:22Well, if nine out of the 10 stocks you bought go bankrupt, you say, okay, this is very bad. But if the 10 stocks you bought was Amazon or Apple 20 years ago, well, you would be very happy probably. And the nine other companies that went bankrupt don't matter at all. So that's also a bit the goal here to find some companies that have the potential to 10x over time, 20x over time, while being conservative because you look at the quality. So I think that would be one of the main goals here to try and identify some of those smaller companies. What if you could get a 25 % match on every dividend you earn?

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22:59Straight answers, done. Be prepared to save yourself a ton of time and money. Just go to dupe.com, that's D-U-P-E dot com, and tell it what you're looking to buy. That's D-U-P-E dot com to finally feel confident about what to buy. What's the best way to get started in the market? Download my ebook for free at stockmarketpdf.com. So one of the things that I think is interesting, and you kind of touched on it at the beginning, was most people think of Berkshire Hathaway as this huge conglomerate, But it was actually a micro-cap when he first started out. And it's grown exponentially since Buffett took it over.

23:42So when you're kind of hunting through these companies, how do you research the companies? Because it's different than it is in the large-cap space, for example. There's generally no analyst coverage. There's not a lot of other people, i.e. retail investors, writing about these companies. So I guess, how do you do your due diligence about some of these smaller companies? Let's say a company has a market cap of$50 million. How do you do your due diligence on a company like that? In one sentence, I would say it's quite difficult and it's quite time-consuming. But I guess it's going to be a great answer for our listeners.

24:24And that's also why we are working with a team of four people on this, because it's so time consuming, because you need to do so much work yourself. I think the first step in the approach is always like you do with any stock, also with a large cap company issues. Just start gathering and digesting all the potential information you can find about those companies. in practice usually it's you can only or often you can only find the information that's available on the investor relations section on the website so all the annual reports all the 10ks if you're lucky they are in english if you're not lucky you still need to translate them so so that's how you can start and and reading the the 10ks of the past five years the past 10 years and that's when we usually with the team of four and then credits to those who deserve i think yeah we are with Joachim, Milan, Willem, and myself working on this.

25:21We start building the investment case, start doing our homework. Usually, yeah, we write a case of, let's say, 40, 50 pages about the company, and we can send them to management. And the great thing about those small companies is, well, they are way more approachable as well. So when you, for example, send the investment case and say, look, Mr. CEO, we wrote this investment case. We think the company is interesting because of reason X, Y, and Z, but we also think the main reasons are this and that what do you think are we making a mistake here do you agree with us and can we maybe discuss via call and i think 90 of all the ceos of our management says yes in that occasion and like already also already briefly mentioned it's also very important to just not sit behind your laptop read the 10ks and write your report but also go out there.

26:15So I had a very intense summer. I've been to the summer. I've been to visit companies. I've been to Hamburg. I've been to Madrid. I've been to Dublin. I've been to Chicago. I've been to Washington. I've been to New York. And I've been to, of all places, Baltimore. So to talk with CEOs, to talk with management, to talk with other investors, to talk with hedge fund managers, and just get so much valuable information out there. And one example as well was, for example, in the beginning of August this year, I was in Stockholm to visit the CEO of a company to spend some time with a friend. And I was having dinner with a friend on an evening.

26:58And all of a sudden, just occasionally, Lawrence Cunningham walked into the restaurant as well. The author of the book, Quality Investing, is in the board of directors of Constellation Software, for example. And I said hi really quickly, but I didn't want to bother him too much because he was there to celebrate the birthday of his wife. But then everything gets interlinked with each other, right? One company that some people might also know is Kelly Partners Group. And Lawrence Cunningham used to be in the board of Kelly Partners Group, but he isn't anymore recently. So seeing him there and asking him, why aren't you in the board of Kelly Partners Group anymore?

27:36And what's the reason for that? and seeing his facial expressions with it, that's something different and that's something you can do behind your laptop. And now obviously everyone wants to know, well, what did Lawrence Cunningham answer? Obviously, if you are in that kind of role in the board of directors of some companies, of some listed companies, it's always quite tricky to openly communicate about what the exact reason is. So Lawrence Cunningham mentioned to me that more, well, he's on the board of directors of Constellation, also joined Kelly Partners Group. Both companies are CEO acquires.

28:16So that's really interesting. And he mentioned to me that, yeah, just the main things that you could add to the company, to Kelly Partners Group, were done. And they couldn't bring too much value anymore. to be honest it makes me a bit more suspicious about kelly partners group honest thing i'm invested in kelly partners group and did quite well but i would say that the company gets a yellow flag for that because laurence cunningham also wrote the book quality shareholders about how you can bring the right people into your company in terms of shareholders and you don't like a quality shareholder like laurence cunningham seeing that he leaves the company basically Yeah, that's interesting.

28:59So that's really interesting. So when you're kind of doing your due diligence on these companies, how hard is it to get a hold of the CEOs, the CFOs, and that kind of thing? Is it easier? Obviously, Satya Nadella has not taken my call, but maybe some of these small companies, they would take my call. Is that what you found? Yeah, I think you're 100 % correct on that. And I would also add to that, it's way, when you are having a video call, for example, it's really hard to see what the person is really like. It's really hard to see what facial expressions he has. And one example I can give and one company we're also looking into for Tiny Titans is Chapters Group, for example.

29:44Chapters Group is a company in Germany, so in Hamburg. That's why I went to Hamburg. I was active in serial acquiring VMS software. So basically, they are copying Constellation Software, to be honest, which is really interesting. It's a really interesting business, and it ticks all the boxes because Constellation Software is up 25 ,000 % since 2006. Well, if they can only do a fraction of that, you would be very happy as an investor, right? So the first thing you did, and that gives an insight in the due diligence process, is we wrote the investment case, And we thought, look, the company is quite interesting.

30:24Maybe a disclaimer, the company is also quite expensive in terms of valuation. But you wrote the investment case, and now you start to talk with other investors and other people who are following the company. And I had a meeting with a fund manager. And he said to me, look, I also think Chapters Group is really interesting. But Jan Mohr, he's the CEO of the company, still owns roughly 8 % of the business. He said, well, I'm not sure about Jan Mohr. is he walking the talk is he actually doing what he's saying that he is doing and and will do or is he just playing a role in this and you don't need to tell something like that to me because then i go to hammer and we'll visit the we'll visit the company so so so that's what we did and i did it with a few friends so we went to hamburg to attend the capital markets day and went to hamburg to attend to the annual shareholder meeting as well and especially given my experience in the asset management industry i've done quite some capital markets days quite some investor presentations and so on and what i can tell is i've never seen or attended a capital markets day where i became so enthusiastic as was the case with chapters group and the also the fun part there that it was it was two days so first day was the capital markets day the next day was the the annual shareholder meeting so so we booked a hotel to stay the night there and after the annual general meeting well usually after such a meeting you you there are some some drinks and you can talk with each other and so on so what happened we were the the guys coming from belgium during the seven hour trip one way so at the end when everyone was leaving the company the the meeting and and the drinks well the chapters group management and people working for chapter groups they were still having dinner with the team but then there were three weird annoying belgian guys who are still so they said to us well come and come and join us and and just have dinner with us and that's such such a phenomenal thing because like you mentioned that's not something you can do with microsoft but it gave you the chance to talk with with nine for 90 minutes one-on-one with the ceo for example and it gives you a lot of interesting insights something i love to see and maybe that's also maybe i'm biased because that's also what what i'm like in general but something i like like i love to see is well jan moore he's a ceo he owns seven percent seven eight percent of the company so that the stake is worth 70 million usd something like that he is a very normal guy every morning he bikes his his kids to school he goes to work he picks up the school his kids from school again and then goes to work again even when the AGM took place he biked to the AGM so so that's something that not too many CEOs would do and my general feeling would was as long as Jan Moore is leading the company as long as Jan Moore is leading chapters group I think the company will do quite well and we will do fine even despite the fact that the valuation is quite expensive at this point in time and what you also see if you look at the shareholder base of a company like chapters group well you can see that the the founders of denner are invested in chapters group william thorndyke from the book the outsiders has a significant stake in chapters group and also daniel egg so the founder of spotify is also involved so there you have the quality shareholders and probably I'm not sure how large fans you guys are from Constellation Software but that's an interesting thing you know as well so the right hand of John Moore comes from Constellation Software and you have quite some people from Constellation Software who left the company to work for Chapters Group and that's really interesting because they were implemented involved in the Chap and the Constellation Software flywheel and they know how it works and now they are just trying to copy paste within chapters group and something i didn't know before i went to hamburg is it has or people said to me or example you said to me constellation software has an amazing reputation mark leonard is an amazing capital allocator but but apparently the the atmosphere for constellation software germany was quite toxic just the work culture and so on And that's exactly the reason why some ex-constellation guys in Germany went from constellation group to chapters group.

35:03And that's what you want to see, right? Because they have been using a system that works. And right now, they're just copy-pasting it. Like Manish Barbrai said, well, I'm a shameless copycat. You don't need to reinvent the wheel. You can just do more of what's working. And when someone else will find out what you need to do, you could copy it in your own space. August is National Wellness Month, but most health trends equal things like buying random gadgets and guessing at what actually works based on whatever's trendy at the time. And I wanted to stop guessing at things like that and actually look at the data behind my body.

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