EP 129: Tom Hale (CEO, Oura) Shares Health Habits That Will Make You a Better Leader

24:20Was all of a sudden, like, I really felt like the world was a brighter place because of my cognition changing. So sleep is this kind of foundational element for people. When you pull it apart and you say, well, okay, so what happens if you don't sleep? What are the things? Well, I think we all know what that looks like, but there was a study, except I wrote the data down, so I would get it right. There was a study in the NBA and they did a, uh, they divided the players into two cohorts, seven hour sleepers, um, and more than eight hour sleepers. So when they looked at the two cohorts, the ones who had more than eight hours sleep, they had 12 % more minutes of play, 29 % more points per minute, um, 2 % better three, three pointer percentage, 9 % increase in their free throw percentage.

25:08And then of course, conversely, they had a 37%, The other side, the people who didn't sleep, they had a 37 % increase in turnovers and a 45 % increase in fouls, which anybody who has small kids obviously knows because when your kids are not slept, they're going to be committing fouls and turnovers all day long in your house. And I mean, yeah, okay, that's super intuitive and like it makes perfect sense. But the reality is as adults, you actually don't think that way. You think I have agency. I can choose when to go to bed and I adjust this and I do all these things. Your performance is really directly tied to sleep.

25:40Now you take it to the other extreme, which is when you're sleep deprived, like they've done studies of drivers and traffic accidents and they try to sort them between alcohol and sleep. And in many ways it's confounded because sometimes you'll be sleepy when you're alcohol. It turns out when you are sleep deprived, like you are worse and more prone to having an accident and worse accidents than, you know, when you're drunk, which is shocking. Cause I think we've all grown up to think like you can't drink and drive. Cause that's the worst thing you do. Worst thing you do actually is be underslept and drive.

26:12Because when you go out, your body shuts your brain down. You're not even pretending to control the device. You're driving a missile and you're not giving any input to the person and you're not giving input to the vehicle. And that's, so those are kind of the acute things the next day. There's obviously elements of longevity as well. And I assume there's a lot of data. There's a ton of data that, so for example, Parkinson's and Alzheimer's heavily correlated to short sleepers. In fact, people who have short sleeping genes, because not everybody's sleep patterns are the same, much higher incidence of Parkinson's and Alzheimer's.

26:44There's a lot of evidence that actually heart disease, one of the things that's a confounding factor that helps people get heart disease is the fact that they don't sleep well. It's correlated with a lot of other factors as well. The American Heart Association made sleep just recently, like I think in the last four years, they made sleep one of the eight essential habits for heart health. Um, just, and there's lots of reasons for why that is, but the truth is, is that yeah, your body needs to recover. I think athletes have learned and maybe corporate athletes to your kind of like knowledge worker thing.

27:16They've learned that if you sleep better, you, you perform better. And we just talked about the NBA, um, from other, you know, health perspectives. Um, the one that surprised me the most is, is, um, metabolic. So type two diabetes. That's the diabetes that you get from not eating well, not the one that you're born with. Affects a lot of people in the United States. There's probably 50 million pre-diabetics. Turns out sleep is really a mechanism that controls these two hormones, the same mechanism that GLP-1s use. And the GLP-1s are like the Ozempics and the Wegovis of the world. If you sleep well, the two hormones that regulate whether you feel satisfied and whether you feel hunger.

27:56They're actually released in different amounts if you're better slept. This whole thing of midnight snacking is a thing because your body, the way we've evolved over whatever, 150 ,000 generations of human life, is that if you don't sleep, your body's going to make you eat. This is why midnight snacking is a thing. And so if you're not slept, you're going to eat. And the reality is that that's going to lead to all these sort of cardio metabolic issues down the line. So if you think about those kind of health states, turns out those ones, Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, heart health, cardiovascular disease, that accounts for like, you know, most of the reasons why people either get sick or die.

28:36Now it's not cancer. It's not, you know, I got Ebola or something else, but maybe 60 % of the illnesses that are ultimately going to get you are related to your behaviors. And so the last thing that sleep provides is actually a fair amount of willpower. It increases your ability to have agency and decision-making about the choices that you make. Should I eat the chocolate shake or should I maybe, you know, forego if you have, if you're better slept, you'll make that choice more frequently, more, you know, the right choice more frequently over time. And so I guess, um, as you came into the business, how big of a fundamental element of the branding was fitness versus sleep?

29:16Um, so I think it was, um, you know, rough justice, something like 60, 40, um, and it was 60 % sleep and 40 % fitness. And the fitness stuff was largely a function that we were paying very expensive, um, uh, sort of high visibility, high value athletes to sort of rep or across a wide range of sports, which was really interesting. It was a fascinating thing to kind of like learn about that business. But ultimately, what we started to realize was that being pigeonholed as fitness was, one, not great to the point that like this is something that you have in your hand while you're working out. And by the way, lots of people wear their Oura ring to work out and lift weights.

29:54But there's lots of reasons. Probably not as heavy as I do. It's not as heavy as you do, obviously. Um, but, but, but the, the point was more, if you are, you know, going to be thinking about what this thing does for you, fitness was certainly interesting, but there are lots of really great fitness solutions out there. And by the way, because we're not competing for your wrist real estate, we can add that, you know, people can wear their garment and their ring. And in fact, our positioning became about recovery, you know, work out really hard, track your workout, but then understand how you're recovering and how your body's adapting over time or during a training regime.

30:26And that was really useful because it was like a good complimentary positioning. But the real genius was health, start to position around health. And, you know, one of the lessons actually I learned, uh, in my career and a little bit at red point was when you're choosing an investment, think about Tam, right? Think about the opportunity size, because that's probably going to be the most weighted variable in the calculus of whether or not your company is hugely successful. So health is a bigger Tam. Well, okay. Why? Well, certainly there's lots of people care about, you know, going to the gym and go to the gym all the time.

30:56But most people don't have ripped abs and most people don't get to the gym twice a day like you do to lift heavy. But, you know, some people do, but most people don't. And then, by the way, there's a whole cohort of people who going to the gym is just not a thing. They either don't have time. They don't have money. Maybe they're sick. I mean, we see a big cohort of Aura users who are managing chronic illness. They're not going to the gym. You know, for them, they're trying to say, like, how many steps can I take today? Not did I get my 10 ,000 steps? And what is unique about the finger? I mean, you said this versus a compliment to the other stuff.

31:30Like what is unique about the ability to have a ring versus other parts of the body? Well, one is the comfort. One is the wear time. One is because it doesn't have a screen and a, you know, a sort of operating system that's consuming batteries, the battery life. Battery life on an Apple Watch, you know, maybe if it's an Ultra, maybe it's two days and depending on how you use it, maybe it's less. Battery life on a Garmin depends on which one you buy, but, you know, pretty good. But a ring, by and large, five to seven days between charges. But the difference in battery size is really telling. The battery size on this might be eight to 10 times larger than the battery size of the ring, which means we're way more efficient in terms of our use of compute and energy.

32:10That's really powerful. Really goes a long way because it just fits into your life. You don't have to think about it too hard. It's not something you need to manage. You don't have to be like, oh, I forgot to charge it, so I'm not getting my score tomorrow. You get habituated to getting your data on a regular basis without too much effort. That turns out to be really important. And the other thing that's important structurally is that if you think about this site on the human body, it is the place that is the most accurate for these kinds of sensors to get data. When you go to a hospital, they put the sensor for your blood pressure, I'm sorry, your heartbeat, they put it right here in your finger.

32:43Why do they put it there? They put it there because you have an artery that flows right up your finger. It's the first stop on blood coming from your heart straight down your arm. So you're on the leading edge of the pulse. And maybe most importantly, you're working through very uniform tissue. It's pretty thin. That blood flow is very close to the surface of the fin. So when you consider it to the wrist, you're on return blood flow. It's capillary action. You're dealing with confounding factors like skin, bone, hair, tattoo, discoloration from sun, all these factors, even race, because generally your palms are lighter than the dark side of your skin, which is the backside of your body, the dorsal part of your body.

33:24So really interesting, we get a signal for PPG that's something like 15 to 100 times stronger than it is at the wrist. And so that's really powerful because that gives us the ability to see and analyze things using machine intelligence that just aren't, the data's not in the signal. We get signals that are really, really fine grained and we can make assessments of things like your pulse wave velocity, which is a measure of arterial stiffness. These are kind of more health metrics as opposed to like, hey, what was your heart rate after you finished your run? Or, you know, hey, how many steps did you take?

33:56Which is important, not playing that down at all. We see this in practice because people wear, you know, two devices. 66 % of our customers have a second device, usually a watch. We get another set of people who are like, I like nice watches and I want a wearable and I'm not going to wear two watches. And we get a lot of women who are like i like this because it's a cute ring and it's not you know a big iphone on my wrist yeah um to each their own the point is is that there is a structural advantage to being a ring i notice a hundred percent i notice it like your accuracy versus the garmin that i wear is it's demonstrably different it catches i mean even as far as my my garmin for the most time i i have to alert when i'm done sleeping versus if i roll back over at five in the morning i'm not ready to get up Like catch all the way, all the way through, this was a wake period that you were hanging out, uh, messing around on your phone versus you fell back asleep for another 45 minutes and all that.

34:54It's just the precision of getting up in the middle of the night, all that stuff. It's far, far more accurate. Yeah. And, and if you think about the benefits of that, you know, the benefits are like, it feels like it knows you better. Um, you know, one of the canonical aura experiences is the first time, you know, it sort of detects that you're getting sick, but you don't feel sick. And then two days later you're on the couch surrounded by Kleenex and you're like, wow, this thing really knows me. You know, these kinds of experiences are enabled by the accuracy. You know, when it understands you and you feel like it knows something you don't, then you're like, wow, this is really something I should pay attention to.

35:30I should, you know, I should pay attention to something that's telling me something I don't know. And that's powerful. And the reality is, is that like, I think if you think about sort of wearables 1.0, you kind of learn some things and then you're kind of like, oh, I learned that thing. I know what 10 ,000 steps look like. Don't drink before bed. Don't drink before bed. And the thing is, great, you should have those. And I think our strategy on that front is to kind of take health journeys and string them together because you might go through a sleep journey like I did where you lose sleep and then maybe you figure it out or maybe you don't.

36:02I'm sorry for you if that's the case. But you go through that journey and then maybe it's like, whoa, I'm aging and I need like health. I need to make sure I understand what's going on with my health. Or maybe I'm a woman. I'm trying to get pregnant. Or maybe I'm trying to not get pregnant. And if we can string those journeys together, we think about this as a personal health companion for your life. Whoa. Think about that. You know, our big, broad, bold vision is that everyone has a phone. That's a supercomputer. Everyone should have devices on their body that's measuring their health, that's feeding information to that supercomputer.

36:30And there's machine intelligence that's monitoring over you and, you know, helping you make both healthy choices preventatively, but also monitoring you like a check engine light for your body about where things are going. And maybe you should either change your behaviors or she a doctor. And that kind of idea is really powerful considering the state of healthcare today, where geez, you know, we got maybe 500 million hours of primary care available to people in the U S that is about a million, you know, one and a half hours per person per year. That is not enough. Right. And, and if you were going to really service people, maybe you need a couple billion hours.

37:04Not happening. Where are we going to get the doctors from? Not enough doctors. So something like this, I think is transformative to the way people practice healthcare. Okay. Well, that's interesting. But what's really happening is people are also taking agency. COVID taught us that. COVID is like, Hey, like world's going to up in flames. You got to take care of your health. Like make these choices. Like that was a huge moment of education. The advent of the internet information's available. People now know more about them, you know, the world of health and are reading more scientific papers and are, you know, signing up for clinical trials, that sort of agency in health, we're, we're riding a tailwind right now.

37:39And that's really powerful because I think the way, uh, technology does things is disrupts it completely, you know, slowly, slowly, slowly, and then all at once. And I think we're part of that. And so, so if you accelerate that, that, uh, vision past where, where we are today, I can, we're already seeing the world in which you're able to enable personalized information. Hey, this is a deviation from standard. You might be getting sick or you might be pregnant or whatever it is. You can see that, which maybe we'll talk about some of the data implications or the things that you guys feel a moral and a business obligation towards, but let's put that on the side for now.

38:15As you extrapolate that through, are we nearing the point from moving away from sick care and some of the preventative care that we might want to go to? Not at a personal level, Obviously, there's a lot of people that are doing this, but are the incentives moving in the right direction between the big payers and the health plans and all of that to really incent this kind of behavior in some way, shape, or form? If you wear an aura ring, you have lower deductibles or whatever it is? Incent? No. I don't think the incentives are changed or will change quickly. Um, but I do believe that the market power of consumers, uh, actually is what actually moves things.

39:01This is when people move money from, uh, in, in Aura's case, uh, uh, health savings account. And instead of spending money on some elective procedure or going to their FSA account and buying, you know, first aid kits that they're going to give to their family, you know, to get rid of their FSA funds, when they change that mode to be thinking like, no, I'm going to buy this thing. And they're voting with their dollars and they're voting with their behaviors. I think that's what changes. Maybe explain HSA and FSA in simple terms. Sorry, yeah. If you work at a company, a lot of companies provide a benefit, which is a health savings account or a flexible spending account.

39:33Pre-tax dollars. These are pre-tax dollars that you set aside. In the FSA case, usually it's use it or lose it. In the HSA, it's kind of use it until you need it. And the idea is that you're looking at things that you might pay out of pocket. And as most people know, the insurance kind of world of healthcare is that you get good healthcare and you don't really pay other than you pay your insurance premium. And maybe, you know, somebody who's really sick uses more of it and maybe someone who's less sick funds more of it. And, you know, it all sort of balances out and hopefully, you know, it all works.

40:06And that's a practical kind of solution to the problem. But the incentive is, well, you get paid if you get sick, if you're a provider. And if you're a pharmaceutical company, you get paid if you get people to take drugs because those drugs are making them better. And if they get better, then, you know, they should pay, the insurers should pay. And the insurers have an incentive, which is like, we want to, you know, we want to charge the right amount of premium, but we don't want to lose our shirts in case too many people get sick. So we have to charge the right amount of premium. So the incentives haven't changed.

40:33And that's structural. And I'm not sure that's going to change. can you i'm sorry finish no but but what what has changed is that there's a certain amount of care which is basically disposable income out of pocket and that market whether it's for preventative care or for people who are going to different kinds of doctors or elective surgeries or medical tourism like that number is growing and that's a real like uh that's a real trend that's happening in the world and i think what's happening is consumer choice is leading that trend and that i think Again, I believe that that's what causes real disruptions.

41:04Is there any stat that you're comfortable sharing or any data point around people spending using HSA or FSA? Is that demonstrably growing within the business for you guys? So last year when we introduced it, we were the first ring company and maybe the first wearable company to really crack the code on HSA, FSA. We were blown away. We were blown away because basically there were these captive dollars. And we thought actually, ironically, those captive dollars would come from people who are price sensitive. And so therefore they would buy the cheapest form of or a ring. They would sort of be taking advantage of their pre-tax dollars.

41:40Interestingly enough, the ASP through HSA FSA was higher because they were buying up to the fancier finishes. They wanted gold or rose gold and they used those pre-tax dollars to get that. And so it wasn't about price sensitivity. It was about like, this is money that I've already set aside for this purpose. I've already decided it's for my health. And here's something I want that's going to help my health. I'm going to spend my money on it. There's probably a legal reason that'll make it sound really dumb for me to ask this question. But I'm curious if I'm a big self-insured employer, why wouldn't I want to incent the behavior within my organization to, Hey, if you, I have root insurance on my phone.

42:21own portfolio company. I use it for my car insurance and it monitors my driving. I thought you didn't do pay placement. Yeah. Yeah. Well, actually, I think we're totally out of that position at this point. So how the public stock trades, I'm very happy for them, but it doesn't impact me. But I'm curious, they can track however I'm driving, if I'm speeding, if I'm not, all that stuff, it packs my premiums. And we seem to be okay with that. Are there reasons legally that self-insured employers can't say, hey, you know, our employees that wear their Oura ring and track their sleep and all that. I think it's going to be inevitable that the same kind of what, you know, I think that's called telematics, right?

42:59This sort of idea that sort of your behavior is revealed by data might indicate your risk and therefore will stratify you based according to your risk. And maybe that takes the form of a lower or higher premium. And by the way, that's actually the business that they're in, right? Is stratifying risk and understanding what their exposure is. That's an insurance company. So I don't think there's like a structural impediment. I think that - There's no law inhibiting. No, there's no law inhibiting. Other than the fact that your data, you need to be okay with sharing your data. And so our posture on this is that like, we don't share your data unless you want to share your data.

43:30If you think it's going to help you and the insurance company, then we're happy to do that. And if you sign up for it, then we're happy to do that. But we're not going to do that on your behalf or to our own advantage. That's just not the case. I do think that that is going to be ultimately a really interesting going back to this there's a vision of everybody has a phone and everybody has a device and like it will change the dynamic because you won't be using you know actuarial tables to determine it you'll be using live data to determine it and i think insurance companies see this we have conversations with them and they're like yeah we we see this coming and it could be an opt-in thing into much in the same way um clear tsa pre those are opt-in systems and if you want to give the incremental information or pay the incremental service you get something And hey, if you want to track my, I'll give you access to my data on some basis, some cadence, some amount of information.

44:19And in exchange for that, I get lower premiums or a lower deductible or whatever it is. The reality is they already know. And the reason why they already know is because they see your treatment history and because they pay for your treatment history. And so therefore, like they have a pretty good sense of when you're going to die because the numbers are there. The actual actuarial exercise is actually quite good. There's a lot of data. There's a lot of data. A billion people or whatever, 60 billion people that have been born. That's right. And there are machines who can process it. The one about self-insured employers, it's really interesting.

44:49I figure that's the smallest pool that you could start with. And there's different risks associated with a Redpoint employee versus, you know, whatever. Somebody's driving trucks or something like that. Yeah, truck drivers. So absolutely. And I think that goes, again, to like they want to understand that and they want to understand those risks across the board. I think what's interesting about self-insured employers is that the incentive to care for someone preventatively plays out over the long term. Meaning that if you're on average an employee of a company for five to eight years, I don't know what the actual average is, but it's generally people change jobs.

45:24The incentive actually is to not pay for the preventative care because it's not your problem. It's not your problem. And no one's ever said anything quite like that. But I think that's just to play that out for people that aren't totally following. So if I'm only going to be at a company for five years and I can spend if in eight years time, I'm going to have to spend five hundred thousand dollars, but I can spend two thousand dollars a year for the next five years or whatever it is to prevent that five hundred K. You might keep the can. It's going to be someone else's problem. Someone else can pay the eighty thousand dollars to, you know, have your your your heart surgery or whatever.

45:58And the thing is, obviously, the person bears that expense and the pain of it, but also the society. You think about our society today where 20 % of the expenditures in the country are healthcare. I don't think that's healthy because we should be spending more money on things like education or innovation or whatever it is to sort of move the society forward. But healthcare is actually weirdly a tax. And I think if you can change that landscape by incenting large groups of people to be healthier for longer, and you can reduce the burden, most of which, by the way, of that whatever it is,$4 trillion to get spent on healthcare in a year, most of that happens end of life.

46:38The majority of that is critical end of life care in acute places where you're trying to keep someone alive. Man, that's actually bad for the society. Now, I think that's changing and we're seeing the winds of that change and aura is, you know, a small flag in that wind. But that's really what I'm talking about. Consumer choice, people becoming aware of their choices and the implications and outcomes that they can affect and taking those actions. I think if you do that at a countrywide scale or even a global scale, the impact is massive. Hopefully our international audience listened along with us on some of these nuances of the U.S.

47:16healthcare system. It's not good. Newsflash. Yeah, exactly. I'm curious, I guess, as you sort of zoom out, and maybe this is a question that is applicable to both international, but maybe also U.S., if there was something that you wish people knew, or if you could wave your magic wand and have people do some behavior, is there anything that immediately comes to mind that you're like, yes, I really need to impart this information to people, or I wish behavior change happened? Yeah, to sort of have a positive impact. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it's the importance of small choices that add up over time.

47:52And the example is like, I mean, I would use sugar consumption or processed food consumption. There's all these huge environmental and structural incentives to get you to consume foods that actually aren't great for you in the long run. I mean, we're learning more and more about the impacts of processed foods and the impacts of sugar consumption on your diet. And you look at the rates of diabetes, type 2 diabetes, and in some countries it's far worse. I mean, you go to the Middle East or, you know, you go to the Indonesian or South Pacific Islander nations, and you see, like, the impact of the global food system on those people.

48:26And you can see it because, like, everybody is, you know, 250 pounds. That's a broad overstatement and no offense meant to anybody who lives in those areas. But like that's a factor that the public health systems in those parts of the world are thinking about is to think about the power of your diet and think about the choices that you're making and maybe to agitate for – you should be educated. You should understand what the impact of the foods that you eat and the things that you consume are. Because truth is you might go to the gym, what, twice a week, three times a week, maybe. and you probably get some, you know, depending on what kind of job you do, you might get some, some movement in, well, that's good.

49:01You're definitely going to sleep, you know, seven times a week. You're going to eat 21 times. And so the impact of those 21, you know, meals that you eat massive. I guess, um, maybe putting a pin in the, uh, the data and the trends and all of that, as you envision this world, there's this big thing. People are talking about artificial intelligence. And as you start thinking about... Heard of it. Yeah. It seems like a thing. And as you think about what that could look like in all of the stuff that we've just touched on, is there anything that feels particularly exciting about the potential? I mean, we've been doing artificial intelligence from day one, and that's because the algorithms that we develop are basically formed by neural networks over a large set of data, and that's what trains them and therefore that informs the algorithm and the algorithm is what tells you what the score is, what the value is.

49:52Okay. So that's great. Uh, most people are excited about gen AI and, and the ability for, you know, sort of simulated intelligence that can be presented to you and is, um, responds to you as if it's a human. And I think there's a tremendous amount of power and we're seeing amazing things happen in healthcare around that. Um, but they're kind of what I would call like automation. So, you know, a lot of the healthcare industry's inefficiencies are about tracking down, you know, insurance and who pays and all this kind of stuff. I think that automation is really powerful for clinicians who don't have time, the ability to create patient notes or a follow-up or a patient record that's being, you know, aided by some machine intelligence that can both categorize and maybe report on what's going on.

50:36And you look at radiology. So now it's well demonstrated that you take, you know, a hundred scans and you feed them to the AI and the AI comes back with 78, you know, these people are healthy and 22 are, are, are not, and that's as good or better than doc. Okay, great. All amazing things are going to happen. And so I think, I think it's going to be profound. We're at the beginning of whatever you want to call it, the fourth technological revolution, whatever it is, it's, it's happening. It will take time. It's not going to happen all overnight, but the technologies are evolving at a rapid pace.

51:07It's going to be pretty impressive. For aura, I think the way we think about it is that idea of the doctor in your pocket that is with you, you know, the 23 hours and 45 minutes that you're not seeing the doctor for 15 minutes every year. And that that intelligence is going to affect, uh, one, it'll make predictions about, Hey, it looks like something might be going on. You might really want to seek care. You've had three ectopic heartbeats out of the last, you know, million heartbeats. You might want to do something about that or at least get it checked out. Okay, that's interesting. Checking, you know, check engine light for your body.

51:41But the hard part of health, particularly preventative health, is behavior. And the thing is that if you have a relationship with something that's maybe holding you a little bit accountable, maybe giving you some education so you understand the why you shouldn't eat the, you know, the food that's bad for you, maybe giving you some motivation to say, hey, here's something you could do, or maybe even some ideation. Take a walk with your dog, and it's giving you an idea. You're like, oh, yeah, what a great idea. I should go do that. That power of small changes, writ large, personalized to someone, decentralized, meaning it doesn't have to happen and be filtered through the lens of a doctor who's talking to you.

52:17It's like, no, you know that you've been educated. This is what you do to be healthy. I think that's going to be profound. And we're seeing early inklings of that. We have a thing in the product called the Aura Advisor. And the Aura Advisor basically remembers things about you and it doesn't give medical advice, but it does have lots of advice and education. And it says, what are you interested in learning about? Let me teach you about your body. And then we'll point you at metrics in your records or say, hey, you should pay attention to this. Or, oh, you're interested in that? Let me tell you about that.

52:46And that is really profound. And the reason why it's profound is because we're seeing people who really use it and they use it almost like as a advisor, you know, as a friend. Um, we, we had, I love this story. Um, we had a focus group and we were talking to some early users of the advisor and we said, what is your number one feature request? And they said, well, we love it. And we love how supportive it is. We love the information it gives. We love how it helps us find things in the app that, that, you know, we, we wouldn't have discovered otherwise. And we actually also just kind of like hanging out and talking to it.

53:23And we're like, well, that's interesting. Tell us more. And then what would you want to see as a feature? I said, well, we'd really like to be able to name it. Can we name it? Can we give it a personal name? Because it's like, I feel better talking to someone who has a name and we're just like, our mind's being blown because I think the way we're wired, something seems like a human and then behaves in a way that cares about us. Our natural reaction is like, okay, that person cares about me. I'm going to invest in it. Oh my God. Mind-blowing. I think we're at the beginning. I mean, there's so much to talk about there.

53:57Yeah, it's fascinating. It's fascinating. I'm looking through this one sort of very small lens of people having quasi-human relationships. And so that's coaching and advisory and doctors and stuff like that. But I think it's much bigger than that, obviously. Today, the Ring is the principal hardware product only? only? It is our only product. Yeah. Only product with, with all the subscription service. Yeah. I don't have a name for my, my coach, but all the software stuff around it. Yeah. You mentioned CGM earlier and you have a partnership or a new relationship with a CGM provider. Yeah. Yeah.

54:34So if you don't know what a CGM is, it's a continuous glucose monitor. It's basically a patch that has a filament that goes underneath your skin that, that senses the amount of blood sugar in your interstitial fluid, not in your blood. It doesn't actually penetrate your vascular system, but it gives you a sense of that. And what happens is you eat something and you look at your blood sugar spike. And the general theory is that there's a healthy range of blood sugar for a healthy adult if they're not pre-diabetic and you want to be in that range. And if you spike above that range, maybe you should eat less of that food, or maybe you should go for a walk after you eat that food, or maybe you should change the order.

55:12You should eat something that's more like fiber, which absorbs a lot of the blood sugar before it gets, you know, sort of distributed to your blood as glycogen. Okay, great. Awesome, awesome, awesome. And these were historically mostly centered around diabetics? 100 % for diabetics. They were used to dose insulin. And in the last five years? Yeah, I think it's been, yeah, maybe four years or so where people suddenly became aware that they could use this. Actually, athletes, performance athletes would use it to understand fueling. um and people who are going on weight loss journeys that were sometimes um you know medicated weight loss for or a serious intervention would use it they would use it to understand how their blood sugar spikes it's become more popular among venture athletes it's definitely it's definitely become it's become more of a thing actually somebody told me once that they you know they were going to a cgm party and i was like wow it sounds like a fun party well definitely that is a cult that is that is do not drink what they give you there that's right that's right so So the point is that this is just yet another data point.

56:10And for us, we partnered with Dexcom, and Dexcom is a major provider of this technology, primarily to diabetics, but is expanding on providing it to the general populace who are paying for it out of pocket. The price has come down. It used to be about$100 a sensor. Now it's about$49 a sensor or$99 for two. And most importantly, you don't need a prescription. You used to need a prescription to get them. Now you don't. And so people are learning that your genotype and your phenotype and how, who you are and your medical history means the way you react to food is totally different. You know, you talked about your microbiome and your stomach and like the way it processes the things that you eat is really, really variegated.

56:48It's not the same for everybody. And so understanding that's really important. And so for me, again, it came down to learning the things that I thought were actually healthy foods. They were things that, you know, I've been brought up to think that this was healthy and I had done some research and I thought that was healthy. And it turns out for me, they were not healthy foods. And so I've cut those foods out of my diet and it's made a real impact on how I feel and how I look and my weight and all the things. So I think our vision in Aura is that this is a great device for measuring a lot of things.

57:16It's probably not going to be a great device for measuring blood sugar. Never say never. People talk about the watch doing this someday, but I think that's very far in the future. But you know what? If this is the thing you're caring about and it has the most current and the best data, Well, let's leaven that data with other sources of data and you'll get a more complete picture of your health. Well, why is that important? Well, if you think about health devices, and I'm thinking medical devices, they're generally looking down the keyhole of a very specific indication, what illness you have, or a very specific intervention.

57:48I'm putting a new knee in you. And so it's all about that new knee. And it's not about anything else. It's not about your other knee. It's not about your shoulder. It's about your knee. And that kind of like rifle shot view actually misses a big part of the picture, which is that over the long span of your life and the long span of all the things that you might possibly do to affect your health, like you're going to be missing a lot. It's the sick care paradigm. And so what's really interesting is, and customers tell us all the time, is that they are making these connections between behaviors that they have and choices that they make and outcomes that they see either in their application or in their life.

58:19And making those connections reinforces those behaviors and it goes back to healthy habits. And so at some point, I guess, as you zoom out or you paint the story long term, it sounds like other ways of getting data or other integration points for you as a part of the vision and the means of doing that are TBD. You have this partnership in place currently. But Dexcom is a really practical thing. That'll be in market within a matter of months. Will that integrate into the app? Yeah, it shows up in the app and we make correlations and the AI understands it. There's a great demo I do. Like you take a picture of the food using your Aura app and it sort of records that for you and sort of decomposes it.

59:00You know, this is a salad with, you know, cabbage and arugula and onions and whatever. And it sort of decomposes that. And then it sort of says, that's good. Lots of fiber. You know, good job, Tom. But it also feeds that to the AI. And then you might say to the AI, like, well, what should I change about my diet? And it says, actually, keep eating those salads. Those salads are great for you. In fact, the one you had today. And you're like, what? But, you know, in that connection between even that small choice and that bigger idea and that bigger behavior, sure, that's the magic. Changing behavior is hard.

59:30It takes, you know, reinforcement. It takes time of doing it, and it takes some motivation. And sometimes it takes extrinsic motivation or accountability. And I think an AI can kind of play that role. I'm curious when you came into the business, we talked about the 60-40 split of fitness and sleep and what that looked like. I guess 60 was sleep, 40 was fitness at the time. Um, and, uh, I I've, I've read it was majority male, uh, at that point in time, but, um, I don't know to what extent, but it, um, as you sort of looked at that and you start thinking about, Hey, how do we reposition around this sleep thing and start thinking about new avenues of growth?

1:00:12What, how do you about actually doing that? Uh, well, first you have to have a really clear intent. and we had a pretty clear intent, which was we liked sleep and we wanted to keep that as a foundation, but we wanted to expand into other need states. And the other need states were women's health, cardiovascular health, and basically longevity, healthy aging, and stress. And so once we had that really clear and we had set our roadmap in that direction, then the point was, well, how do we educate the market about that? And I'm a big believer in uh, you know, sort of using all the resources of the company and putting them behind one idea and to sort of break through the noise.

1:00:51Um, there's a book, it's called play bigger. Um, if you've ever heard of it or read, it's a great book. It's about category design, but one of the market winners accumulate a disproportionate amount. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Um, and, and that, and then in order to do that, you actually have to rise above the noise. You can't kind of be like everybody else, but be a little bit better. You actually have to be really different and you have to be like different at one thing and that's it. Yeah. The incrementality causes comparison, which you don't necessarily want. You want to define your own category, be on your own playing field.

1:01:18It's a powerful idea. One of the ideas in that book is this idea of the lightning strike. And the lightning strike is you put all the energy of the company behind that one idea and you compress it in time so it all happens in the same time frame so that it can break through the noise. Anybody who's ever launched a product knows what this idea is, but being really, call it company-wide about it as opposed to saying, oh, that's that function's job to launch the product. It's like, no, the company's launching the product. And how can we use every resource in the company to break through? It's a very powerful idea.

1:01:44So that was kind of the paradigm that we approached was like, how can we generate lightning strikes? And one was women's health. That was sort of the first one that really landed. And so we thought very hard about like, how can we, how can we break through? and we had been working with a company who had used the Oura Ring for their clinical trial of a digital contraceptive. And that company is called Natural Cycles. It's something that you can use to determine whether or not based on where you are in your cycle, which is a derivative of your temperature, whether or not today's a day to have sex and not worry about it or to not have sex because you might get pregnant.

1:02:20And a really, really interesting product. So we had been working with them and we're like, this woman's health thing, it is like, it's really interesting because there's a couple of things going on. Young women don't want hormonal birth control. Why not? Well, lots of reasons, but one of the reasons is that, you know, it messes with their physiology. Great benefit, not getting pregnant. Actually, you don't get your period. That's a great benefit, but also messes with your physiology. And maybe when you come off it, you might have a hard time getting pregnant. Okay. So interesting that that was sort of happening.

1:02:54There was also this kind of like almost quasi identity politics thing, which is, Hey, we want to be, have agency over. We don't want to be told what to do. Like we want to be in charge of our own lives. You remember there was a woman who ran the London marathon, you know, and was like, it was her, she was having her period and she just decided to run and like said, screw it. I'm not going to let anybody tell me what to do. Really interesting kind of coming together. So we sort of steered right into that And we launched with Natural Cycles and we made a big deal about positioning the company around women's health.

1:03:22And we delivered a great product for women. And it was like, it was a rocket ship. And delivering a great product around women, like, were there style design considerations or sizing? You know, honestly, I think that it was really more in the software presentation. I think the fact that it's a ring was actually the thing that made a difference. Because as a wearable, like, if you're going to be a continuous wear wearable. And by the way, if you're going to make predictions about someone's cycle, you kind of need to be on their body all the time. If you miss even a few days of data, your period prediction about when your period is going to come, it's going to be, could be off.

1:03:55You know, missing this in the data is a real problem. You want consistent, crisp data. Okay. So that was really the, the, the, the product feature was that it was a ring, right? And that it was cute and it looked good and it was, you know, stylish. And what we saw was when we pulled that together with HSA FSA, those things came together in time. And that broke through because all of a sudden you had young women on TikTok and Instagram telling each other that this is what they needed to do. And that was really powerful for us to see. And we kind of got behind that and fanned the flames up a little bit, not by buying influencers, but by amplifying people who were these authentic voices, that this was something that a young woman ought to consider.

1:04:34Today, 18 to 24 women is the fastest growing demographic for us. And not to say we're, you know, men grew 50%, but women grew 250%. And that's product market fit and catching a moment. It's a lightning strike. So going back to like, what did we do? First of all, we found something that was really compelling. It's way easy to market something that's super compelling. We found that. And then we had the science to support it. So it was credible. And, you know, we had a great partner and then we took that to market. And there's obviously this other element of luxury and price point and all of that.

1:05:10And it sounds like that was another experiment. It was an experiment. Maybe speak to that. And I guess, I mean, how you even think about brand design and price points and all of that? I mean, you know, we have a really strong kind of cultural impulse towards the mission of improving people's health. And so there's a really strong strain in the company of like, we need to figure out how to make this accessible to everybody. We're not successful until we've affected the lives of a billion people. At the same time, we stand for accuracy and credibility and the rigor of science and the world-class product development and excellent fit and finish and that's premium.

1:05:50And so reconciling those two things, it's an interesting challenge. But on the whole, a premium price point or what is perceived as a premium price point actually signifies something, signifies quality, and it signifies value. And the calculus on this was thinking about health. What would you pay for health? Well, it turns out more or less it's priceless because without your health, you have very little to live for. And I mean that in the most practical and down to earth And it shows up in data, by the way, like higher, richer nations spend more on healthcare. And so that's one of those things that YA always, when we show our spend versus other nations and all, the data is always a little skewed on that for a bunch of reasons related to health and service costs and all that.

1:06:37But it's a luxury good, similar to travel or similar to education. You spend more on it the wealthier you are. And by the way, if you're well off, you're going to spend more on out-of-pocket. You're going to find the specialty doctor or the best person who does this particular procedure because you can afford it. So as we thought through that, we're like, well, it's pretty important to have that. And we toyed with this idea of like, should we really be a luxury good? And we did a partnership with Gucci where we did a run of Gucci design rings. and when it came time to price it uh you know they they suggested a price point and everybody's jaws fell to the floor because we're like you can't charge that no one's going to pay that that's crazy was this just a small scale kind of experimentation hey let's go work with it was a partnership with gucci i think we had all you know we'd seen um apple with hermes and you know there's there's sort of a tradition actually in wearables and technology of sort of sort of collabs with with luxury brands and if you remember the virtus phone you remember the virtus phone ten thousand dollars for a bejeweled uh cell phone that didn't work very well um pretty interesting uh for us was um one that there was very little price elasticity that was surprising to me i would have thought it was you know much harder to sell what did it end up getting priced at a thousand thousand euros basically thousand euros yeah and uh and what was the run the initial run i can't remember the number exactly but we sold out in two weeks oh wow which is you know we thought this was going to be like a nice supply and it went it went really quickly so much so that we had to do a second run and launch it again, you know, about six months later for a larger audience.

1:08:09And what was, I think, compelling for us was like, I don't think we want a position as like the Gucci of healthcare. That's probably not right for us. We do want to be accessible and we want to do that. But it's certainly interesting to note that this has the properties of jewelry, which is that it's expression. And if you happen to align with the expression of Gucci or whatever luxury brand, you will pay for that. And that's an intangible that people are willing to pay for. And so we came down sort of to the idea that what we should do is we should have a range of offerings from an entry-level price to a premium price and sort of allow people to self-sort based on either utility or fashion.

1:08:43And that that range from utility plus fashion being the highest price and utility with a little bit of fashion, maybe in comfort, being the lowest price. And that seemed to work really well because the people who were like, look, I just – I want to track my sleep and I don't care what it looks like. They would buy the cheapest one, and the people are like, this says a lot about me, and I wanted to match my other jewelry, would buy the different finish. And that was an unlock for us because that's not how wearable people think, and technologists don't think that way because technologists are like, what are the features?

1:09:12And which features do you put in which skew? And you should price more for more features. I'm curious, there was the scaffolding of a very successful product, and there was a business that was already in place with a lot of mission-driven employees in there. That's right. And you're coming in not as the founder where you don't have the same moral authority that a founder kind of has. But you're making these decisions, changes, broadening the mission, changing elements of how you go to market and all that. I'm curious how you go about making those decisions. And ultimately, there's probably a balance between collaborative decisioning.

1:10:01And also, at the end of the day, you're the one whose job's on the line. And you're the one that got hired to come in and try to do this stuff. And so I'm curious, there's this whole founder mode thing that popped up. I guess I'm just curious, broad strokes, your perspective on that. Well, I think there's so many things to pull out there. So many threads. I think one thread might be, what does it mean to be a founder? and what permission does that give you and what license does that give you and what, what, you know, power do you have? And by the way, what does it mean that if you're a founder and you're working 80 hours and everyone needs to work 80 hours and how does that fit?

1:10:37Like it's, you're setting the culture through your own example. I think that's powerful. I don't think it's the most interesting thing here because in many ways I kind of operate like a founder. I feel like a founder. I'm as committed to the company as any founder is, you know, I work harder than some founders, maybe the less successful ones, who knows. But the point is, is that if you're committed to the mission of the company, I think that's the moral equivalent of being a founder. And I am very much committed to the mission of this company. It's part of the reason why I chose to work for it because I felt like here's a company that's going to actually make a difference in people's lives.

1:11:10I want to be a part of that. And that's so powerful. By the way, as a leadership tactic or a cultural element, having a really strong and tangible and authentic mission, it's gold. You know, people are, they work, you know, with more intent, they collaborate better, they will stretch further, they will, you know, you'll get a higher level of performance in a mission-driven company than in a non-mission-driven company. And I guess interject, I mean, that was part of your consideration or what you communicated to the board through the process. Yeah, I understand this. I understand this. I understand this because actually SurveyMonkey had a large degree – actually, based on Dave Goldberg's kind of personality, it had a large sense of mission.

1:11:56And its mission was to allow anybody to – their voice to be heard and to give the powers that were making decisions the mechanism to hear that voice. Wow, what a novel and interesting idea and a way to approach the idea of survey software. so for people that know david dave goldberg was the ceo tragically passed away cheryl samberg's husband that's right probably five seven years ago yeah something like that yeah i guess maybe a little bit longer um so that was a really uh that was a really powerful part of it and that maybe goes to founder and mission driven i think the the other side of it and and the story of ora is that it was founded in finland um it was founded in olu which is the fifth largest city in Finland and maybe 100 miles from the Arctic Circle.

1:12:40So it's pretty isolated. But it was one of the outposts of Nokia. Nokia was a big maker of mobile phones back in the day, number one market share for many years. And so there was this real interesting skill set there. There was also a real focus on health and a particular metric called heart rate variability. So there was some real sort of physiological scientists there who had real understanding of it. And there were some people who are working on data science. And that was kind of the founding matrix of the company. And the thing is, is that like, um, one of the things that, that I know about any office anywhere is that they, they, they are, have a culture.

1:13:19And at the heart of that culture is some either set of values or set of beliefs or an understanding of themselves. And if you ignore that, you cannot lead them effectively. And, uh, when I joined the company, the first thing I thought was like, okay, So here's this Finnish founded company. The last couple of years has been led by an American CEO and has an American investor base. And, you know, those two things are, are, are somewhat intention and I need to resolve that tension. So the first thing I did is I went to Finland and was like, you guys make this product. You guys built this product.

1:13:52You guys are the founders, whether you're the, you know, cap table founders or the founders who built this thing. You are the people who did this. And I have so much respect for you. And I have so much, I honor you. And by the way, I am your servant. I'm your servant leader. That's, you know, I'm sure you've read Tom Collins book, but like, that is a powerful idea. I do not, it's not me. I am here for us. I'm here for you. So, so motivating. And so that was a really fundamental thing because they had not heard that, you know, even though they were the people creating the product, they had, they did not feel that or hear that.

1:14:23And that was really transformative, I think, for the company because it opened the door for us to grow around the world, primarily for the next couple of years in the US, but to add more employees and to propagate that culture. Today, if you ask people, they would say there are lots of elements of Finnish culture in Aura today, but I'm from California or wherever you grew up. It's not Finland, but there are Finnish values. There's the value of sisu, which is like grit and determination. There's Finnish culture, which is typically blunt and direct in terms of communication. And all these elements have, have carried through and they're part of what make Aura both distinct and inform the product that we make.

1:15:02And so I guess, uh, you, you come in and you go, you go over there and you, you found out you don't change things initially along the way. Um, did you have an intuition of where you thought this would go from a product standpoint? I did. I mean, I had a thesis, I had a thesis that like really what, what needed to happen was that the software needed to really evolve and that the surface of value that we were painting on needed to evolve and that we needed to think about these need states. And that was sort of the strategy part of it. Of course, as always, you lay the best made plans. We were staring down the barrel of we were going to have to raise money and it was the worst fundraising environment in you know, a decade and, you know, the go-go years of 20 and 21 were over and the bloom had come off the rose for health investments.

1:15:54And, you know, we were staring down the barrel of that. And I said, like, I can tell you right now, we got to change. And, and so in some sense, uh, it's it, that forces you to make decisions, never let a good crisis, never let a good crisis go to waste or else that crisis will eat you. Um, and so it, it was a pretty tough, it was like six months, maybe less, five months into the job. And, you know, we had to do some tough stuff. And we had to make some tough decisions. And we had to, you know, we had to change the trajectory of the company. We stopped spending, you know, buckets of money on marketing and everyone was screaming like, you can't do that.

1:16:30It's going to kill the business. And ironically, you know, we've ramped down spend. And at the end of the fourth month, we've cut spend altogether on, on demand generation. We had the best sales month we've ever had. And, and that's a power of a product with a good market fit and a customer base who loves it. What a, what a great asset to have. And that really carried us through. And, um, we re-articulated the mission away from, we're here to be a glossy, you know, uh, consumer product goods kind of company with a glossy brand and everything was about the brand and the brand is this, and let's make the brand that it's like, no, no, no, let's return to the basics here.

1:17:05Let's make a great product. Let's make a product that draws on the power of this thing to change people's lives and to, to help them with their health. Like let's steer into that. And that was really, uh, you know, we've had a great couple of years. The company has half a billion dollars in 2024 of revenue. That's, you know, that's a big performance from where we were. Yeah. It's amazing. I guess you, you talked about this tension of, of product and brand, or maybe they're not, maybe they're not at odds and there's inherent tension. They're tied together. They're actually the same thing. They're the same thing, but But which master you're serving at different points in time could be a little different in all of that.

1:17:45I guess, do you feel like your software kind of background where really, for the most part, there's elements of brand and software for sure, but the product inevitably will speak for itself? Were you drawing on some of those experiences? For sure. I mean, I think somebody much smarter than me once told me that strategy is the allocation of resources. And so determining where you're going to spend your resources actually is where your strategy is. You might say your strategy is this, but if everybody's working on that, that's what your strategy is, not this. And so for me, it was about like making sure that we were doubling down on the product investment.

1:18:21And our software team was sort of a great team, super strong, but sort of underpowered for the task that we wanted to set in front of them. Um, and you know, the upper hand of the business had been, um, the building the brand and building, um, building awareness and, and, and positioning the company a certain way, luxury, all the things we've just been talking about. And I think I was like, I think we should get back to the basics here. Like, let's get back to like the benefits that, that this product can confer to people, not what it means to wear one. And do you, do you recalibrate, I guess, as you actually operationalize that do you recalibrate around different okrs and north star stuff or is it yes these things is sort of all the above it's all the above but i mean at the end of the day and i think you probably know this intuitively as an investor it comes down to the people we basically got a brand new team you know i hired a whole new set of uh um executives and and it was much easier to sort of set them at the course that we wanted to go after because they didn't have any history to sort of protect or any, you know, they didn't have a dog in the hunt other than like, let's make this thing go.

1:19:25And, um, you know, there's a moment I think in every company where you sort of go, Oh, it's really clear what we need to do. We just need to do it. And as we built the team, um, it became very clear that that sort of health was this place that we really needed to anchor and we really need to push on and we really need to drive towards and women's health in particular. Um, and that was both, uh, motivating and clarifying. As you, as you look out now, Now, are there new areas that you're excited to go into either from a demographic standpoint or customer type, whatever? Yeah. I mean, I think about international.

1:20:02We're largely a U.S. business with a small, you know, kind of outside of the U.S. business. And I think that's a – this is – we're early days. You know, the ring's having a moment. A lot of people know about Oura Ring and we've gotten awareness. But really, at the end of the day, most people actually haven't heard of it. Or if they have, they don't really understand the benefits of it. They think of it as like a Fitbit for your finger or something like that. We've got that opportunity in front of us from international expansion. And are all the trends that we sort of talked about in the U.S.? Global.

1:20:34Yeah. I was actually sitting with someone from Tencent earlier this week. And they were just like, yeah, let me tell you what's going on right now in China. It's all about health and wellness. Let me introduce you to the influencers there. So I think those are global trends. Weirdly, I think COVID had something to do with that. It sort of put everybody on the globe that their health is not something they can take for granted. So global is one. I think the other that's really compelling to me is this idea that we can ingest or source data that enrich what we're doing. And whether that's environmental sensing or other kinds of devices or even other sources of data, whether it's electronic health records or, you know, and, and, and, and, and sort of this, one of the premises of artificial intelligence is the best data and the most data wins.

1:21:23And I think we have a really interesting role to play because we can be the scaffold that is the data and then other people can be the context and sometimes can be the core data. And like, that's a really interesting thing that we're expanding towards. I'm really interested to see how this AI advisor thing plays out. And then there are certain things that are like new kinds of sensing. I'm wearing a CGM continuous glucose monitor now, but I've taken at-home blood tests. I think that's really interesting. We're seeing people who are doing a quarterly blood test to track some biomarker or another, and that's become way more accessible, right?

1:22:00logistics and the mechanisms for doing analysis of dried blood or sending a phlebotomist to your house to do a blood draw because you're too busy. There are things that are structurally changing there. I'm really interested in other kinds of analytes. So your urine is an analyte. Your sweat is an analyte. There are electrical signals that are mediated from your body, which are really powerful for measuring what happens with your heart. There's all sorts of things that I think are in front of the company in terms of new sorts of sensing. And then, you know, I think there's the whole healthcare opportunity of sort of being the foundation, both as a piece of hardware, but also as a data layer for change in healthcare and how healthcare gets delivered.

1:22:45And I think if you think about the TAM there, you know, going back to the lesson being like, have a big TAM, that's a big TAM. And, you know, the conversations that we have with either practitioners or insurers or providers, like everyone can sign it, kind of see that this future is coming. It's a little, sometimes a little hazy, sometimes a little more clear, but like this idea that the way people are going to practice health driven by the patient, not by the doctor that's happening and you can see it and it's not happening, you know, change overnight, but it's happening in the way that you will see that it's going to be an overnight massive change at some point in the future.

1:23:22That I'm excited for because A lot of exciting stuff. Could be interesting to have a real impact in the world once. It's good. Not implying that software doesn't do that. Well, software ate the world. Software ate the world. Software ate the world. And so now, and that's the famous, you know, I drew some quote. And actually, if you go to A16Z, one of their like seminal articles on their site is they think that the biggest, you know, consumer company in the next 20 years is going to be the combination of a technology company and a healthcare company. and you know if united health and apple had a baby it would look a lot like aura yeah well i uh no one's going to hear this because i cut any plugs to uh to andreys and her oh sorry oh i'm sorry am i i'm not at andreys i'm sorry your mic's already cut out oh your mic's cut out and no one heard that anyway so you're welcome to cut it yeah yeah tom thank you for doing this it's a pleasure thank you for joining this episode of the logan bartlett show with ceo of aura tom hale if you enjoyed this discussion.

1:24:19We really appreciate it if you subscribe to whatever podcast platform you're listening to us on, as well as share with anyone else that you think might find it interesting. We look forward to seeing you back here with another great guest on The Logan Bartlett Show. Have a good weekend, everyone.

1:24:48Thank you.