Ofgem special: Why are UK energy prices so high? We ask the regulator’s boss that and more!

24:03So we have to make decisions that are about keeping costs down today, but also about looking after customers tomorrow. And that's what we do. I want to throw one of those more aggressive questions at you before we go to the news, though, because this was said quite a lot. So this is Scotty. how many backhanders and freebies has Jonathan taken to keep the price cap so high protecting profits who pays your bills who pays off gems bills and do you have links to energy companies so look we um we're funded by a levy which goes to everyone's bill so compulsory which is compulsory energy companies have no control over that they simply have to collect that as part of general collection for the bills as you can imagine as a public servant i get no payments from energy companies.

24:44I get no freebies and I am very, very careful about that because we know our integrity is massively important. Who's your boss? So my boss, well I report to a board, Gemma, and the chair of Gemma is Mark McAllister. And who oversights and appoints that board? So that board is appointed by the Secretary of State. So it's ultimately appointed by the Secretary of State, but we are independent. So once we're in, our job is to be a bit distant from government because we have to make these decisions independently. Irene says, I mean, takes the point on the geopolitical issues which caused the rise of gas after the the rise of the price of gas rose rapidly when Ukraine was evaded but Irene makes a simple point she gets that but why are our prices much higher than elsewhere in Europe where the same thing surely applies there.

25:29So we look regularly at our prices versus other countries there are other countries who have higher prices Germany does for example Denmark does for example but but a lot of it is down to how much you depend on gas. So when we had lower prices than the rest of Europe is because we had low gas prices. But as gas prices go up, we will find our bills will be higher until we diversify away from that. And that's why we need to build renewables as fast as we can. Now we're going to have a quick break from talking about energy, but don't worry, we've got lots more questions we put to the chief executive of Ofgem coming for you in a moment.

26:02But let's talk a bit about the tellers for this week, which was your pocket money rules. How old are the children? How much do you give? Do they have to work for it? And does that include tidying their room? Of course, though, Adrian has his own view. Pocket money policies. It's very difficult, I think, to work out properly because it's not just the amount of pocket money, it's what that money is for and what you as a parent will buy. Like, you'll buy school books, for example. Buy necessities for them, yes. Who's going to deny a child outside pocket money? He said, look, I really want to get into Tolstoy, Daddy.

26:38So obviously you're not going to make them pay for their own war and peace. Whereas I think you're right, but I look at pocket money from exactly the diametrically opposed angle. So I think pocket money is about, should be a reward for chores and for work. Performance-related pocket money. Well, yeah, and the reason is you have, that's what we all do. All of us are paid for the work that we do. We're paid for going to work. We're paid for putting something out there. It's starting to teach an idea that money isn't just this thing that you're entitled to. It's a thing that you have to graft for.

27:13So no standing charge, in other words. Exactly. No standing charges on... Yeah, there isn't a standing charge pocket money. You're not given two quid a week just for doing nothing. You're given it for doing something. And I would go further. Personally, I wouldn't pay pocket money for tidying... the child tidying their own bedroom because that's their responsibility. That's already their job. So maybe deductions if they don't tidy it. Well, you could do that. I think that gets into a slight, that gets into a penal system, and I'm not sure I'm so in favour of that. I think this is about reward and saying, hey, you want more money, you can do with what you like, we'll give you what you need.

27:44So therefore the clothes debate, clothes is difficult. You know, they're going to need clothes. It's a necessity. You can then argue what is a new piece of fashion that isn't needed or isn't needed. So this is about giving a child discretionary money that they can use on what they like. But for me, the meat of it, and I'm not talking about for four-year-olds don't need to do stuff. But the meat of it for older children is saying, as in everything, you will get more if you do more and if you contribute more to our household society. I've got to chip in on this because that's exactly what we do with our two children, six and eight, Robin and Dylan.

28:18We basically, they have to do work to get their pocket money, but also then you give them the choice. So when we're coming out of a zoo and they're seeing all the plastic toys for£10 each, they choose that a lot less when it's their money as opposed to if you're just doing it for free. And that delayed gratification making you understand that you can have the sweets and the instant things now or if you save it up for five or six weeks. All of this, that's why. So for me, pocket money is an educative and a life skill tool. That's its primary purpose. So the actual realm of what you spend it on is less interesting.

28:46But we do have, people have got in touch. Have you got one? Yeah, and Matt says his son gets£15 a month into a Monzo account, £100 into a S &S JIC. He will have access when he buys his first house, then a good school report comes, say£15 adding. It's along the spirit of what you said, Martin, no rewards for chores as they are a given. And they need you to steer them in the right direction. Not everything you do is rewarded. Well, you can have necessary chores and voluntary additional chores, couldn't you? It's overtime, if you like. You could get paid for it. Tracey, we have marble money. So for every chore they do around the house, dishwasher, washing up, et cetera, they earn a pound.

29:23Once they've done the chore, they put a marble in their pot and then cash it in when they need the money. My daughter has ASD, so it's a very visual way of doing it for her, but works well for all. Catherine says a pound for every year with an annual rise on your birthday. So£10 when you're a tenant and so on. Rise subject to appraisal and performance review. Joanne, I'm liking these. Joanne, from being about 13 years old, I gave my daughter all the family allowance and she had to pay for all her extras with it. School trips, going out with friends, extra clothes and toiletries. She's now 24 years old and better at managing finances than I am.

29:59Of course, it's called child benefit now. Now, back to questions for Jonathan Brearley, the chief executive of the energy regulator Ofgem. Question for Jonathan. Somebody says, can I ask for your view on how resilient the energy supply chain is to cyber attack from nation states and other bad actors and what steps are put in place to improve our energy cyber resilience. Now, is this something you're responsible for or something you're just no more entitled to worry about than the rest of us? No, we are responsible for that. We work with the government on this. I mean, it's worth saying just in terms of security of supply overall, we have one of the most resilient systems in the world, actually.

30:45And, you know, compared to many, many countries, we are very comfortable in that sense. But I think we had the head of the National Cyber Security Centre to say only a couple of weeks ago that this is a risk for the country. Now, we work very closely with the companies to make sure they do everything they practically can to protect against an attack. But I think as a country, we are going to have to be much more vigilant against cyber attacks, almost in the same way I'm saying 10 or 15 years ago, we should have been a bit more careful about who we were buying our gas from. I've got one from Karen, flipping subject here, talking about standing charges.

31:16The complete con of the regional disparities. Scotland producing all these renewables and yet paying premium standing charges. This needs fixing as well as the general drift to higher standing charges. So, of course, when we talk about the price cap, the price cap is regional and it also depends on how you pay. So there are different standing charges and unit rates in different regional areas or national areas in the case of Scotland of the country. Why and why do they pay so much more in Scotland than the north of England? So I'll tell you why they are now and I'll tell you what we want to do about it.

31:47So they are different between different areas because they reflect the costs of the networks in those different areas. What does that mean? So what that means, if you can imagine somewhere like Scotland, the number of wires you need per household that are there are higher, for example, than if you live in somewhere like London. So that's what happens today. Now, we're in a process with the government where we're thinking about whether actually we need to unify prices across the country a bit more. That's linked to the question of, well, how do we make sure that we get the best value for places like Scotland that have loads of renewables and, in fact, that can drive the price down?

32:18and as part of that we want to look at whether we should unify those costs. I'm going to do a poll this afternoon on social media whether people think it should be unified. I think that's fascinating. And just to say, we've prioritised first of all the biggest question which is whether to have a zero standing charge or not. But that is part of it. Yeah. Regarding the electricity priority register, Jill says she's on the register but during the two long power cuts in the recent storms I had no contact. Also could not contact anyone from the numbers I was given to phone. Every time I ended up on a long waiting list, when I went on the register, I was told I'd be contacted to ensure I was OK, but that didn't happen.

32:56That would drive me mad if I was Jill, and then the regulators there are supposed to regulate. And how are those firms brought to account that didn't respect the fact that she was on the priority register? Well, look, we have engineers who've been regularly visiting the sites where those power cuts are happening right now. So we are working very closely with the companies, and we put a huge amount of pressure for them to do three things. First of all, they should have contacted Jill. So I think she should go back to the company that she's been trying to contact and we should be having a conversation about that.

33:26Secondly, they need... Shall we get Jill to get a note and we'll get that sent to your office? That would be pretty helpful. So we have a last Simon, producer Simon. Can you get that to me and we'll get that to Jonathan. And we've done exactly that. Since the programme, we put Jill's in touch with Ofgem. Fingers crossed something comes of it. The second thing is, you know, all engineers available need to fix a problem. And the third thing is, if you've been off power for a certain amount of time, you should get compensation. We raised the maximum of that compensation for£700 to£2 ,000 after the last set of Storm.

33:55You might remember Storm Arwen. Now, what we will do, and we do this with every big Storm, is we will examine really closely the behaviour of the companies. And if that is common practice, we'll do what we did last time. We'll find them and we'll work with them to try and improve. But why has she got to go to the company to complain? Where by definition, she can't pick, as you've already said, she can't get anyone to pick up the phone or answer an email. Surely there should be an off-gem telltale complaints line, whatever, to say, look, I want to report this company for not getting in touch with me.

34:23Well, three things you can do. So go to the company. You can go to the ombudsman if your complaint isn't resolved. You have to go to the company first to do that. That's the problem. She can't do this because the company won't respond to her. And then do come to us. Where does the ombudsman fit in? So if a company's not resolving your complaint, so they're ignoring you, then you can go to the ombudsman. Are you asking a bigger question? What's the difference between the ombudsman and the regulator? Is that sort of your point? Yes. I mean, let me just do that structure because people get this in the financial as well.

34:47The regulator is looking over companies in the markets to see how they work, what the rules should be, and are they big picture systemically operating them? The ombudsman is a bit like, it's bad phrasing, it's a dispute resolution process between the individual and the customer on the back of the rules set up by the regulator. So he, Jonathan, doesn't deal with individuals' complaints. Right. He might see a whole there's 500 people complaining about this. Oh, that looks like a systemic problem we should investigate. But he's not going to look after the 500 people. They need to complain to the firm.

35:21This is where it's set up. And then the ombudsman can make an adjudication. So it's a bit like a mini court within a sector, if you like. That's the difference between the two. Yeah. Brilliant. And look on Jill, please do get in touch with us, though. It is frustrating to hear those companies haven't reached out. But with you or the ombudsman. In this case, yeah, but that's the head of the regulator sitting here. We're going to pervert the process because he can go in touch with the firm to do it. And also, hopefully, when that call goes in, they might say, I hope you're not doing this with other people, rather than you can't just go to Jonathan.

35:53He can't sort out individual problems. He'd have nothing else to do. That's exactly right. I understand that because I get to say, I have a couple of things I want to do, Adrian, before we go into smart meters, which you want to do. So quick one. Paul, do you anticipate that renewable energy and grid storage prices will continue to drop significantly over the coming decades? If so, do you see a combination of energy independence and cheaper bills for the UK in the long term? So I think the short answer is yes, I think we will see that. Now, you know, this is going to take a long time. So we've looked at how you get to 2030.

36:24We think the costs of the system are roughly the same as the cost today. But I mean, we have always been genuinely surprised by how quickly costs have come down in renewables. And when I look at batteries, there are new technologies now, which means batteries are becoming much more cheap to produce. And if you look at electric vehicles, the range of an electric vehicle is getting higher and higher. So over time, I think without a doubt, we're going to see an electric vehicle market take over the petrol market, not because government wants it, but because people are going to move to a cheaper way to move around the country.

36:54And I expect that over a lot of renewables. It'll take time, though. So this is something I'm starting to lobby on, and it's good for me to say that publicly. I have a concern about time of use tariffs. I've spoken to the Secretary of State about this. So time of use tariffs, which I think we're going to see more and more of, that's where the amount that you pay changes every 30 minutes. They are potentially a very good thing, because if you make it very cheap at night, people will shift their energy use to night. And the nirvana is your smart meter will do it automatically. You'll tell it when it's below this price, turn me washing machine on.

37:25You know, that's how it will work. And when we do that, because we won't need such high levels to cope with peak demand, everybody's prices should drop. So that's the sort of the nirvana in a decade's time type thing. This is my problem with it that I don't think is being considered enough. And it's almost a problem for me. People are going to ask me in the future, what's the best time of use tariff? The prices are changing every 30 minutes. You cannot rely on the past price to be an indicator of the future price. So while we will gain from it societal-wise, in terms of consumer transparency, it is very dangerous.

38:00I have ideas on what we need to do, but what are your thoughts? How in the future, when we have 30-minute rapidly changing time of youth tariffs, is a consumer meant to know which the best one for them is? So I think this is an area we're going to need to work on together, actually, because it is complex and you can't perfectly predict the future, a bit like you can't perfectly predict what's going to happen to the price cap in a year's time. I think what we've got, though, is the opportunity of now more than ever rich data and algorithms that will allow us to be able to make calculations, to be able to compare those two things.

38:31But I think it's a new area. We're going to have to find a way to see how customers are going to evolve. And we'll have to do that with you on our own. I just deliberately threw the ball in the air, hoping you would hit it that way so I could catch it and reply with this. My view is you will need to mandate companies to publish their pricing algorithms. if the pricing algorithm was published even if it was one that consumers can't understand but it's one that someone like me with a team of data analysts that we can therefore plug them all into machine and plug everyone's algorithm into machine and then say what's your usage okay if looking at your usage this one would be cheapest for you but it's that transparency that i'm concerned about there has to be they obviously have a pricing algorithm and they're going to need to open that up otherwise we're just going to be you're just going to be plucking you know a nose hair out of the nose to find out which is cheapest.

39:20And on that, however we do it, that transparency is going to be vital. OK, let's move on to the subject of smart meters now. On smart meters, Alex asked something, which I would also ask, is why on earth were the supplier banging our doors down, giving us no peace to put a smart meter in, when even the fellow that fitted it saying, oh, he won't work here, because you haven't got the right phone signal? So actually, through Martin, I know why. Because the firms were incentivised to say, you've got to fit a certain number of smart meters. And I think, did that come from you? Did that come from Ofchip?

39:56It comes from the government. But no one said they had to be working. It's mad. So look, first of all, just stepping back from this, we think smart meters are a really good thing for customers. There's two reasons for that. One is that they automatically send your usage, so you're not having to report your own usage, or someone's not having to come around your house to check what you're using. Secondly, it does help people understand how their energy patterns are across the house and it should help you try and make savings and we've seen that. But there are problems with the network, etc. And more importantly, there are smart meters that are going back into the old mode and we don't think the numbers that we're seeing in the market...

40:33The radio transmitters are being switched off, aren't they? Next June, I think it is. There is. And there's a particular issue of the radio transmitter. 450 ,000 people are going to base their smart meters will go dumb. But so we go back to Adrian's point. You're right. People are forced to have, you know, companies are fitting meters that they know won't work. I have written to the Secretary of State for Energy saying you need to change the targets to working meters rather than install meters. I would say I'm warm to hopeful on that one over the next year. Jonathan probably doesn't know, but I'm warm to hopeful.

41:01That's all I can say. I don't know. It will happen. Would you think that's likely to change? Well, I think we've got to continue to put smart meters into people's homes. And I think they need to work. Yeah, of course. Of course. Not just put them in, put working ones in. But let me say this. I agree with you. And also there's a job for the industry to do it to make sure that where they can, they're fixing them. So all of that needs to happen. So people often ask me this question. I know the answer, but I'm going to ask you because I think it's important. Can you be forced to have a smart meter?

41:30Can they force you to have a smart meter for a specific tariff? Can they force you to have a smart meter overall? So companies can say if you have a tariff, then that needs to be on a smart meter. and some companies do, but no one can force you to put one in your home if you don't want to. Unless your old smart, old meter comes out of date, can they then do it if you're, if you have a past use by date on your old smart meter? So I think you're still mandated. Sorry, you can still make the choice, but I think you're encouraged at that point to get a smart meter. My point on those people who don't want a smart meter, and I, again, I think this is a vicious circle here until we get the smart meter rules right.

41:59And Tina is saying, why do we get charged a higher rate if we don't have a smart meter? Okay. I don't think that's as true as people think it is. So many of the competitive fixed tariffs, and this is what I study that we've had over the last six months, normally about 80 % of them don't require you to have a smart meter. So actually do a comparison and go for the best deal that doesn't require you to have a smart meter if you don't want one. As an aside, because someone, I saw this question, I haven't got it in my list in front of me. Someone said to me, we can't have a smart meter fitted. This is unfair because I can't get the tariffs.

42:31If you have been told it is not practicable, let's say practical, it's a simpler word, but practicable is the right word. it's not practicable to have a smart meter then you should be able to access a smart meter tariff without a smart meter because if you can't have one fitted you shouldn't be disenfranchised for that reason that's correct yeah why don't you tell us what the price cap is going to be when all these other energy firms are predicting it why don't why don't you come out and say you've got the algorithm you know where it is this is what we predict for the price cap every six weeks and we've talked about this and we're we are definitely open to being transparent about it I mean, to be blunt, though, those companies use the same model we use.

43:09And so they're not far wrong. The reason why we're a bit hesitant. You've heard that here. When I do those predictions, those predictions are pretty on the ball. Yeah, yes. And there's plenty of firms out there who supply those. Now, the problem with them is, though, if you look at the price cap example for April, you mentioned that in your opening. That number, by the time we get there, could be very, very different from the number that we gave out today. Because we're two weeks of 12 weeks through that process or maybe three weeks of 12. But the further along we go, the more right it gets. Once you get to halfway through, for it to be very wrong, prices would have to shift.

43:41You know, you'd need a new war somewhere or something. You would. And I think we're open to doing that ourselves. All we don't want to do is mislead people. We don't want the regulators saying, it's going to be this price and then people find it. But the problem with you not doing it, and the reason is energy firms, we've had this before, we know the price cap. People like me know the price cap's going to drop 10%. So an energy firm offers a fix that's 2 % cheaper than the current price, saying you're going to save money by switching to this, but we know the price is going to drop in three weeks' time and their savings figures are based on the wrong information.

44:09And that is a problem. Yeah, and we're very open to think about how we might help with that because I think that would help people calibrate what they're doing. We also just want to think in the future about what's the right structure for the price cap. So are there ways in which we can change it to make it more consumer friendly? Shall we do a bit of Mastermind? We'll get Jonathan to play as well. Go on then. Oh, here we go. Just roll with it, Jonathan. I'll do my best. Very good. We'll have two of us in the room for this. For the rules of the contest, Adrian has to answer first so that he can't get any clues and then Jonathan can answer on the bat.

44:43Right. So, Mastermind, the current score, Adrian has got three right because he got one right last week and seven wrong. Still slightly worse than statistical random chance but getting closer to it, mate. OK. So, Adrian, I've bought you a Christmas present. Right. I haven't. It's just a set-up for Mastermind. I put a lot of thought into it As long as it wasn't a jelly cat No it's not Went round countless places to try and get it just right I didn't And finally, even though it was more than I wanted to spend I've bought it you, I haven't I've got you a personalised jigsaw puzzle of your own face I thought whenever you needed to pull yourself together You could do it both physically and metaphysically At the same time Now, when I gave you the jigsaw in person And you got it home having opened it Unfortunately, you found out that it was faulty.

45:33There was an eyeball that actually belonged to Nagamanchetti in the middle of it. I don't know why, but it probably involves some form of five live communication mix-up, which is very rare. It's very rare. So here you go. It was faulty. The receipt was in there just in case, so you speedily take it back to the store to try and get a refund. What are your statutory legal rights, your legal rights? A, you're due to a full refund as it's faulty and you returned it within 30 days. B, you're entitled to simply a replacement of the missing piece. Or C, you're not entitled to anything. Talk us through it.

46:09I think you've got to be entitled to something. So I'm ruling C out, so it's between A and B. You've set the bar high in the question. You've used words like statutory and legal. Because it's not about the shop's policy. This is about your enforceable rights under the law. I understand that. I don't think they have to give me, even though it's plainly faulty, I don't think they have to... What was the first one? Refund. Full refund as re-return within 30 days. No, I think it's B. I think if they offer just to replace the missing piece, though in practice it probably wouldn't be worth the bother, so they'd probably do A.

46:49I think I'm probably only legally entitled to B. Right, let's go for the head of a regulator now, but not the consumer rights regulator. Without my phone to Google it. I'm going for A. You're going for A, full refund. So I deliberately did a personalised item because there is a rule about personalised items. If it had been bought online and you changed your mind because it's a personalised item, you couldn't refund it under the normal rules that you can refund online. But this was bought, this doesn't matter because this is faulty. So we're under the Consumer Rights Act faulty regulations. Now, if you buy something faulty and you return it within 30 days, you are entitled to a full refund, as Jonathan said.

47:34But who bought it? You bought it. Who didn't buy it? I didn't buy it. So you didn't buy it. It was a gift. I have a legal right to return the faulty item. I can transfer my right to you via a gift receipt or via noting at the point of purchase on the receipt that they are keeping in their till that this is a gift for you. I didn't do that. You had a standard receipt. Therefore, you have no right to return the item, even though it was faulty. And therefore, can we have another? And therefore, that is not the correct answer. Well, the law is an ass. The law decides an ass. No, I'm an ass because I should have got you a gift receipt.

48:23But my point in saying that is be very careful at the moment. First of all, faulty items, you have to take them back within 30 days if you buy them. So if you're buying someone a gift and you bought it two weeks ago and you're not giving it their Christmas present till New Year and they open it and it's faulty, you may well lose that right. Most shops won't enforce it, but you may well lose that right. And secondly, if you are buying someone a gift, try it. And it's an expensive one. try and get a gift receipt because then it's them who has the consumer right to be able to return it under the law rather than them having to give it back to you if there were a case of a dispute.

48:54So there was a purpose. As always, Mastermind has an educative lesson in it, not just to say, Adrian, you've got three right and eight wrong. Although that's also a point. I do enjoy that as well. See, this, Jonathan, is the best in public service broadcasting. I can see. For the purposes of getting the message across, I'm just the fall guy. Well, both of us. and we applaud you both for it.

49:18Right, so that's the official energy bit done. We're in the afters for the podcast only now and we have loads more pocket money tellers that I want to do with you. So joining me is PPS podcast producer, Simon. You've got some, I've got some. Simon, you go first. Yeah, yeah, always delighted to be back. Harmsy has got in touch saying, paid weekly 50p for every year old. The 10-year-old gets£5, 14-year-old gets£7, teaches them the value of money and they understand things have to be saved up for. They also appreciate anything extra they get. I quite like your method because one of the problems you have when you have children of different ages who therefore have different needs and different spendings and different amount of going out is parents will often say, well, you get this much and you get that much and there's no rhyme or reason.

50:03Your method, while it is arbitrary, isn't discriminatory. You have a formula, you've got an algorithm. And I quite like that because it gives a level of consistency. Be interesting to know if you up it with inflation in future years. So you get a thumbs up from me for that method. Let me do Nicola. My only rules were if I ever found out they'd bought cigarettes out of their pocket money, then they would never have pocket money off me again. You may think it's harsh, but when you've seen the effects smoking has on your loved one's health, you'd understand. Thankfully my children and their partners don't smoke.

50:36Well, there you go. I mean, let's be honest, the government uses tax and spending incentives to have behavioural change. It's called behavioural economics. It's one of the reasons the marriage tax allowance exists. It is an encouragement via the tax system for people to get married or civil partnerships and for people not to be cohabiting. So you've done behavioural economics with pocket money on your own kids. It's a stance. You didn't think I was going to go there, did you? Natalie says, my children get pocket money. They also have the option to get extra pocket money for extra jobs or tasks they undertake.

51:08Well, we talked in the programme. I'm a big believer in tasks for pocket money. I think that works well. Let's do Heather. I don't give pocket money as such. Single parent household and sometimes money is a little tight. But if they ever ask for money or want to do something or go somewhere, I always give it to them or buy it for them. They help around the house, alternate washing up in the evening, feed the dog and take recycling out. I pay for their phones and my son's gym membership too. Good kids mostly and don't want for anything. Never ask for more, to be honest. Look, I think everybody has their own way and what works for them.

51:39I like the pocket money as a reward as it gives them discretionary spending. But clearly money is tight sometimes for you. And if you need to not give them a legitimate expectation of pocket money, then that stops you having to tell them one week, sorry, we can't do it. I'm also a great believer, by the way, in if people do have finances that are struggling and you start to have tweens and teens who are capable of understanding that a gentle conversation that's not scary for them about the fact that money is limited, often can help change their attitude, make them supportive and make them understand.

52:08So I'm, you know, I'm a great supporter of being open with children about money once they're old enough, that is. Let's do a couple more. One guy who wasn't on the pocket money bandwagon, JP, when I was a child, I got nothing and plenty of it. Yeah, fair enough. Karen, our daughter is 15. She gets a basic allowance of£7 a week. Then she gets£1.50 for each positive point she gets in the school app. It's usually around the£23 to£25 she gets. But obviously, the better she does in school, the more she can earn. Well, that's interesting because you're effectively subcontracting out your pocket money decisions to the school.

52:41The school gets to decide how much pocket money there is. But again, we talked about pocket money as pay before, as starting to teach children that you have to work for it. And if that's what you want to prioritise, incentivising them, and absolutely a good education is important, I totally get why you're doing it. You're just very lucky you've got an app that scores them. But you're implying that the school could be compromised. No, I'm not. I'm not applying that. I'm just applying it. Subcontractors can be very good. They're not always necessarily compromised at all. But it's a system where you're saying, I mean, what you don't want is sometimes she does something incredible and school says, here, have 10 ,000 points.

53:17Then you'll be in trouble. Brad has got in touch saying he's got two girls, one and three. He's putting one pound a day into bank accounts for both. So 31 quid for January, 28th for February, et cetera. By the time they're 18, it'll be 6 ,570 pounds. Yeah, good. You'd be excited about a leap year, wouldn't you, in his house? Yeah, it all compounds up. Yeah, pound a day is very good. It's a bit similar. Another thing that you could do for your kids is the one penny saving challenge. So put a penny in on the first day of the year, two pence in on the second, three pence on the third. You'll find it soon adds up by the end of the year.

53:48And the last one is someone has written in to say, my child is 11. She doesn't get pocket money as an amount given to her. But whatever she wants, usually money on Roblox, she gets. Okay, how do I feel about that? I totally understand why you do it and it's much easier. But whatever she wants, she gets, I'm not sure is the best message. Now, when I first had my daughter, I remember being interviewed on Radio 2 by Jeremy Vine about it. And I said, I'm going to give her everything that she needs, but not necessarily everything that she wants. What I hadn't worked out at that point is her superpower of looking at me with those big daddy eyes.

54:25Her eyes, not mine, looking at me, but she does it. And then I'm very thankful that my wife is far more disciplined than I am. But I do think we have to be careful about giving them everything that they want. And understanding that money is a scarce resource is an important lesson for life. I'm not criticising your parenting at all. I'm just saying as she gets older, you might want to think about starting to bring in some concepts that show it's limited funding and working for pay and all of those things are useful. And I think that is a good place for us to finish.

54:57OK, you lucky, lucky podcast listeners. It's that point in the show where I give you some tips that are just for you. I should cocoa. And a couple of important ones for you this week. The first is an update on car finance commission disclosure complaints. Back in October, the Court of Appeal ruled on all car finance commissions. And that ruling caused shockwaves. It caused share prices to drop. It caused consternation at the regulator. It surprised me and other commentators on this issue. It's ruling effectively said, if you were not told all the facts when you signed up for a car finance deal, including the amount of commission, which very few people were, then they're unlawful.

55:37Now that's a huge precedent setting decision. And that actually means that is the law right now. Now on the back of that, the regulator is putting a pause on all car finance complaints that go through it. It's just putting a hold and saying, we're going to wait, you can make the complaint, but firms don't have to decide because of what's going to happen next that we've just learnt. This was expected, but it's now been confirmed. The Supreme Court has said it will hear an appeal on that and it hopes to do it in early 2025, so spring 2025 is what I would assume by that. So that means there will be clarity once the Supreme Court rules on what that decision is and on who is entitled to compensation.

56:18As I say, you can make a complaint on that at the moment and you can also make a complaint on the other car finance misselling, which is discretionary commission arrangements. I've done programmes on that in the past. You can listen to the past podcasts, although I will, I'm certain, be doing a podcast on this in the new year to explain it in detail. But for those people who are in the know and understand it, the Supreme Court is going to accept an appeal. so it will here, it will re-decide the case. And it is perfectly possible it will disagree with the Court of Appeal and it's perfectly possible it will agree.

56:50The Supreme Court is quite independent of the Court of Appeal when it comes to those type of decisions. And my second tip is for anyone who travelled with South West trains from London in 2015 to 2017, not to London, from London. The firm has agreed to pay out£25 million after an out-of-court settlement. So this is primarily for people, or in fact, this is only for people who had a TFL travel card. This is what was going on. Effectively, if you were travelling out of London, but you had a Zone 1-4 travel card, you didn't need to pay for the Zone 1-4 bit of your journey. But it didn't make clear enough, that was what was alleged in the court case anyway, although it has accepted no responsibility, it's an out-of-court settlement, it didn't make clear enough, is what they say, the fact that you could have therefore had a cheaper ticket.

57:32So it is giving out this up to£25 million of compensation. It could be worth to you between£30 and£100, depending on how much proof you have. And you can submit your claim really easily via this website, boundaryfares.com forward slash claim, though you've got to do it by the 10th of January. That's boundaryfares, B-O-U-N-D-A-R-Y-F-A-R-E-S dot C-O-M forward slash C-L-A-I-M by the 10th of January.

58:07And now, as they say, for something completely different. Earlier in the morning, I was on Radio 5 talking about standing charges and energy bills, but they'd been talking about Scrabble. And as the presenter, Jeanette Kwachi, is someone I know well because she's the co-presenter of my ITV show, she knows that I'm a bit of a Scrabble nerd myself. In fact, quite a lot of a Scrabble nerd. So to finish, let's mix things up a bit. In fact, let's swap a few letters around in your rap and talk Scrabble. Martin, before you go, we've been talking about board games this morning and I know you are a massive board games fan.

58:42In fact, you've got a show coming out next week, haven't you? All about board games. Let me think about it. I might as well say ITV 8pm next Tuesday. It's called Martin Lewis, How to Win at Board Games. You should have been on a bit earlier because we were speaking about how to win at Connect Four, how to win at Scrabble. But when it comes down to Scrabble, you are the guy. You even proposed to your wife using Scrabble. Am I right in saying that? I did. I proposed to Laura on the Scrabble board two seven letter words will you and marry me I conjoined those words you can't normally do that yeah I have a you'll know Jeanette I have a Scrabble graph of the 1200 games I've played against my wife my Scrabble average is 409 for this show though it was fascinating because I went and played a Scrabble world champion I won't tell you exactly what happened I am a good home player right you know an average of over 400 is a very good Scrabble score I get my bingos I know all my two letter words I know a lot of my three letter power tile words you know I'm a proper Scrabble.

59:32And Scrabble, of course, people think it's a word game. It's not. It's a numbers game. It is about which acceptable letter strings you can put in the place that earns you the highest score. And if you're maintaining letters in your rack, puts you in a position to earn a higher score in the next game. It's not what's the longest word I can make. If you play what's the longest word I make, you will be thrashed by a proper Scrabble player who is numerate because it's about which letters you put in the right place on the board that's within the allowable letter string. Well, Martin, sorry to interrupt, but we've got on the line the man who you played on that show, Brett Smitherem.

1:00:10Brett Smitherem, former World Scrabble champion and current UK number one is with us. Brett, you played Martin. What was the experience? Talk to us, Brett. Yeah, what was he like? Don't give it away, but just let us know. Hello. No, I have to say that playing Martin was a delight. And it's very rare that I play someone so knowledgeable. Because often, well, often what happens is, you know, journalists, they're people of words. So they assume that Scrabble is just a word game. So they assume they're going to have a chance. But without blowing my own temper too much, I say, you know, well, you might be able to run, but you're not going to rock up and try and beat Mo Farah in a marathon, are you?

1:00:50But it was really, really good. It was really, really good. And actually, I think we ended up getting about two hours worth of really delightful. So I'm really looking forward to the show on Tuesday to see, you know, what's what's been kept in. It was such a pleasure. You'll like it. I think I had so much fun, so much fun playing. I mean, without giving too much away, I think it's fair to say I have a pretty decent word knowledge. I know my two letters and know some of my three letter power tiles. Brett, how many words do you know? so between two and nine so I know them all pretty much it's 163 ,000 okay good maths Martin there's the maths there's an arsenal there that I didn't have okay Martin thank you we'll say goodbye to you we'll speak to you at one o 'clock you'll be Adrian Charles and of course the CEO of OffsGem that's Martin Lewis there money saving expert and on to Brett I mean the coincidence was canny but we do well on radio don't we to make sure that we get all joined up joined up with the dots No, Brett, the reason we're talking to you, we've had lots of Texan people talking about Scrabble days, but because the Spanish world Scrabble champion was won by a man called Nigel who can't speak Spanish.

1:02:01So does that mean that Scrabble is a good game or a bad game? Does that make sense? Yeah, it's really interesting. I mean, I know Nigel pretty well. He's a lovely guy. But my argument is always, okay, well, everyone goes, oh, you should know the meaning, you should know. But I say, well, if you can't afford to buy a house on Park Lane, that doesn't mean you can't play Monopoly. you know it's you're there and you have the equipment to play it and that's the game so all nigel has done i say all it's an amazing feat yeah um is is learn a list of of weapons of tools to play the game um and and he approached i mean he's quite unique in that he approaches language like a like an engineer would so he looks at how many base words are there in the language so you know like in like verbs and and um adjectives and things like that and then he learns all the inflections.

1:02:49So he kind of makes it as efficient as possible to learn but I mean it's still incredible. It's some achievement but Brett is playing Scrabble against someone like Nigel, someone like you, at Christmas fun? Do you make it fun or are you just such in a different league to everybody else? Is it like, I don't know Messi coming to play five a side with your mates on a Wednesday playing Scrabble against you? It all depends what people's idea of fun is. I have had people go, oh I'd love to play you and then three moves later they wish they hadn't and they start asking if we've got the rummy cubs stucked away anywhere but yeah I mean it's not brilliant if you want to win but if you want to learn if you want to absorb then absolutely it's I mean personally I always used to enjoy playing the very very top players when I was learning to play but I don't play at home It's all business with you Brett you're playing to win and that's it.

1:03:43Brett thank you very much for being with us that was Brett Smithenham there former world scrabble champion

1:03:50that's it i hope you enjoyed it i hope you enjoyed the change of format interviewing a big name from the world of money especially a regulator to see what's really going on if you did please tell your friends they may like to listen to it too and make sure they know they're listening to the martin lewis podcast they can subscribe and keep updated because we tend to do a new show every thursday so yeah press that button your pockets may be pleased with you if you didn't enjoy it just tell them you were listening to the Scrabble podcast. I accidentally swallowed a bunch of Scrabble tiles earlier.

1:04:20My next trip to the loo could spell disaster.

1:04:39Martin Lewis is the founder of moneysavingexpert.com. But of course, other consumer and price comparison websites are available. You can get in touch with Martin's podcast production team by emailing martinlewispodcast at bbc.co.uk. The offers and rates mentioned in the podcast are correct at the time of recording. However, if you are listening on demand, it's worth double checking as details can date. Remember to subscribe on BBC Sounds and leave us a review however you listen.

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