The Shrinkflation Nation | Why now is the time to check if you’re owed £100s of energy credit

24:25As long as your meter reading's up to date, there is absolutely no reason that he should be seven months in credit. If they refuse, I would make a formal complaint and then take them to the energy ombudsman but i would be surprised in those circumstances if they did refuse why do the energy companies always set the direct debit far too high i've constantly in credit for years because i set it too high that money could have been earning interest for me said i'm providing them with an interest-free loan is that how do you know if it's i mean if you're always in credit then she's right it is too well there are certain patterns where if you were to join in if you were to have shifted to the company at this time of year you would probably always be in credit because of the way that the sine wave that it is works and where you're starting off.

25:09And equally, if you started in November, you'd always be in debt. It's just you'd go from nothing down to bigger debt and then back up to nothing. So I'm not going to berate them for that. That is just a victim of the patterns. As for them setting the estimates too high, that isn't statistically true. I think they often set them too high, but there are equally many cases where it's set too low and people build up energy debt, which is just as much of a nightmare if you owe the energy firm debt because your direct debit is too low and you want to get rid of that as well. So I think always is too strong, often is probably where I'd go to it.

25:40And of course, why? Because they want to make sure that they're covered. So they're setting the estimates to make sure that they're covered. There was a final bit of the question that was interesting. Can you just read me the last sentence again? Sorry. I'm providing them with an interest free loan. Yeah, a lot of people, I had one man getting very angry saying this is outrageous, you should never be in credit. Well, that's just simply not true. Right? And I'm not there to defend the energy firms, let's just remember what the point of monthly direct debit is. Monthly direct debits aim to smooth out seasonal use so you pay the same year round.

26:10They estimate your annual usage usually and divide it by 12 so you pay the same each month. Now that will mean at some points of the year you're building up credit and at some points of the year you're spending that credit or going into debt. Now if this system didn't work I would be campaigning for it because monthly direct debits are a great budgeting concept. The problem is they're often ruined by poor delivery due to firms misestimating or credit grabbing. But the concept that you should never be in credit is ridiculous. I mean, then you would always be in debt and you would argue that the firms would then be lobbying that they should be able to charge us that when we're in debt just as part of the cycle, we're in debt.

26:47So a good balance monthly direct debit will often have you in credit for a part of the year and in debt for the part of the year, and it should all balance out so that you're paying exactly the right amount. Now, obviously, as prices tend to move, exactly the right amount isn't a problem, which is why I give the wriggle room of a month, a month, a month and a half either side. I think if you're within that bounds, they're not playing a game with you. The system's working as it is. And we can talk later of alternatives, a monthly direct debit, if you don't like that system. So I just wanted to make the point, being in credit isn't bad.

27:18And, you know, being in too much credit is bad. And this is the best time of the year for you to be able to see that because this is the point of the year where you should have the minimum credit we got a caller jill joins us from sunderland how are you jill what have you got for martin i'm very well thank you so my my mum is 817 pounds in gas credit at the moment and that's due to an outside gas meter that hasn't been recorded the gas usage since November and December. We've actually chased British Gas numerous times, asking them to replace the meter or send someone out. That hasn't happened.

27:59So I'm just wondering what our next steps are, what to do with the gas credit. Are we better off leaving it there? So let me just check, Gill, and hello. So the meter outside doesn't work, or somebody's not reading it. Which is it? It's not working. It's not recording her gas usage. Fine. So if you went outside to check it for her, it wouldn't help at all because it's not giving a right meter. What is it? It's just blank, is it? No, it's showing the same meter readings from November. So my mum's just recently taken over reading the gas meter since my dad passed away in January. And we've noticed come December and January that her gas meter has remained at the same.

28:45Does this mean that, so you're not getting a bill, she's not paying anything? She's not paying anything, no. Because she's not on monthly direct debit, I presume, she's on payment and receipt bills? No, she's on monthly direct debit, so she's paying£150 direct debit, but she's not getting any bills because the meter reading hasn't changed since November. Oh, that makes it even more complicated. Because it's needless stress we put people through. Well, hold on, I mean, there is an interesting thing going on here. You have done everything that you can practically do, right? You have notified them of the problem, haven't you?

29:19You have asked them to fix it. You are paying your monthly direct debit. Correct. Well, I mean, there is a back billing rule that says firms should not back bill more than 12 months as long as there hasn't been an unreasonable obstacle. Now, there has definitely not been an unreasonable obstacle. You have been a more than reasonable customer or your mum has been a more than reasonable customer. so there is a point saying if this goes on beyond 12 months then it's their problem not yours and they can't charge you for it and i just want you to be aware of that rule um however i mean this isn't your mum is a is an older lady she this is the last thing she wants in the stress with that i would i would turn have you turn this into a formal complaint right as to go through their complaint system i mean your your mum should also i don't know i don't want to make assumptions because age doesn't make people vulnerable automatically, but your mum is an older lady and she's lost her husband.

30:12Is she vulnerable or is she... She is, yeah. She's vulnerable, yes. Then I would... First thing I would do, and I'm sort of doing system playing stuff here, I would make sure your mum is on the priority services register. So call them up and ask for your mum to be put on the priority services register, which means that when there is a problem, it has to be escalated and dealt with more quickly. Once you've done the priority services register, I would make another complaint on this basis and say, this is unreasonable. If they don't do that, I'm sorry for drawing it out. I'm hoping it'll be sorted at each point.

30:45Then I would make a formal complaint because a formal complaint then triggers your ability to go to the energy ombudsman. And then if they don't reply to the formal complaint, I would go to the energy ombudsman. Frankly, it is ridiculous that I should be suggesting this, but that's the situation that we've got there at the moment. But as for what you do in credit, so you may not know the billing situation. Before the meter cocked up, was the amount that you were paying in monthly direct debit about right? Yes. Well, in that case, you know, let's increase my wriggle room from one and a half months to three months yeah let's say let's do a safety margin of three months which would be 300 pounds in credit then i think you're probably pretty safe to ask for 500 quid back ask for 500 quid back and if you're worried put that five in get your mum to put that 500 quid in the savings account so she's earning interest on it so if ever they do call for the money because there's been a problem she's got the money sitting there ready to pay it but i would probably that would be my you have to understand this is seriously on the back of a fag packet mass because we don't have any data.

31:56But with everything you're saying to me, prices this time this year, you know, they're about 20 % higher than the price this time last year, but that wouldn't affect, that would mean your direct debit was 130. It wouldn't affect this level of credit. The price change over the last year doesn't affect the scale of magnitude of credit that you're in. So I'm not going to factor that in that much. So rough rule of thumb, I'd want 500 quid back as long as you're still paying a month of direct debit. Okay. Jill, best of luck with that. Love to your mum. Thanks very much for calling in. Thank you. Thanks very much.

32:27Bye now. Cheers. Julian says, what are the rules around backbilling if the energy the energy account by credit balance sit in your account? Can they grab that even if the bill is over 12 months old? No. I gave evidence recently, we talked about it on the show, to the Energy Select Committee at Commons about backbilling. One of the things that we had noticed is firms are not allowed to backbill you for more than 12 months. Let's be very plain what that means. If you have done everything right, you know, and they have not billed you for energy used more than 12 months ago, they cannot do so. I mean, in fact, it's not even you've done everything right as long as you haven't placed an unreasonable obstacle.

33:06Now, unfortunately, there are no definitions of unreasonable obstacle. One of the things I said in the evidence session was we need this is too much of a grey area and it needs to be more clearly defined. And we did that in a past podcast. I'm not going to re-argue it here. but one thing we noticed is firms when people were in credit were saying we can take the credit if we're back billing because it's not the same as taking actual money that is wrong they cannot do that under the regulations and legislation if they take your credit for a back bill where you have not had an unreasonable obstacle for a back bill more than 12 months old that is a breach of the licence conditions.

33:49You need to make a formal complaint. You need to go to the Energy Ombudsman. You should also record it. Send in a note to Ofgem. Not that I'll deal with your individual case, but we need as many reports. And let me via my team know and we will add it to our database of these errors that are going forward. So no, they cannot take your credit for backbilling unless you've provided an unreasonable obstacle so that they can't backbill you. Can we talk about shrink flation again? And I'll call a lot more Energy Direct debit questions that I'll do in the pod. So do have a listen to that if you're enjoying this conversation there.

34:20Yes, you do one because I've got to switch page. I'm just amazed how much there is. Most perfumes and aftershaves are no longer 100ml. They seem to be all 90ml, the same price. Aquafresh toothpaste in Sainsbury's gone from£130 for 100ml to£2 for 75ml. I've got one Paul here. Paul, and he sent him a picture of this. Over 30 years ago now, I was in engineering and was tasked with making the jig that put the cream into the custard cream biscuits in a lesser quantity so that the biscuit part had more biscuit and the cream was less cream. It was only a minute amount, but it saved huge amounts of money in the custard cream in the biscuit.

35:03OK. Having heard from Gillian Sunderland, we're moving only very slightly south to Cairn in Durham. who's got something for us on shrinkflation. Go on, Karen. Well, I'm just a tad older than Martin and so grew up in the 70s and 80s and I'm certain that Jaffa Cakes were in boxes of at least 15, possibly even 18s if they were marked three extra free, for example. So as an adult doing my own shopping, I've seen packs of 12 being reduced to 10 and earlier this week in home bargains, I saw a twin pack containing 18. That's nine per pack. I can easy eat nine myself in one go. Me too. Yeah, that's fair.

35:48I mean, to be fair, I reckon I could go for 18 if you're challenging me. Martin, you're on. We need a challenge. We need a challenge. So we're down to nine on the Jaffa cake. I don't know. I tend to think the Jaffa cakes have got smaller. And this is a complete... I hope I'm not defaming Jaffa cakes because I don't know. but I think the amount of Jaffa that you get on the top has also reduced. Where are you on this one, Karen? I would agree with you. I think they're definitely smaller and there's certainly less Jaffery bit on the top. Some brands, supermarket-owned brands, I won't mention them, but some supermarket-owned brands tend to have more Jaffa bit on the top.

36:29If there is anyone listening, this is a Jaffa request. With an old pack of Jaffa cakes in the back of the cupboard. Can anyone validate whether... I think we're fine with Karen that the number of Jaffa cakes in a pack has reduced. And it's fascinating that you started by saying in the 70s you thought there were some packets that were 15 giving three extra and now you've just bought a twin pack that only has 18 in and that's a twin pack. So that's the sort of this shrinkflation walking is how I'll describe it. Each time they cut it slightly and they walk it down and it's then reducing, then they introduce a new pack.

37:01But what I want to know is can anyone validate has the Jaffa in a Jaffa cake reduced over the years? That's what your hunch is, not the total diameter. Well, that may have changed too, but I would like to know, because I suspect the Jaffa is the more expensive bit. I don't know, I may be wrong. And therefore, can anyone validate, are we now seeing less Jaffa in the Jaffa cake? OK, Karen in Durham, thanks very much for that. Thank you. Cheers, Karen. It just raises an interesting point. It's very difficult to do... I mean, you're all about like-for-like comparisons. It's very difficult to do that.

37:37And I was just thinking in a supermarket, could you put price per gram on each product? Now, that helps you if you did do that, and they do on some things, then you could compare it to the one next to it. But you can't compare it to what it was a year ago. No, but then again, I suppose my answer to that would be people compare on price because they remember the price, they don't remember the price per grams, and maybe we should focus more on the price per grams to do it as an individual. No, absolutely. Well, if they're shrinking it, then you have to. You're right. We don't do that. But we don't do that anywhere.

38:06It's like I always talk about, there's a good website called Camel, Camel, Camel, which tracks Amazon prices because Amazon often does reductions, but it doesn't show that that reduction might be from a higher price when it was cheaper in the past previously. So Camel, Camel, Camel for that data, you know, and there are, does do that. We don't have, unfortunately, the main supermarket comparison site, there's one now that's still available, but the main one that had been running for years went under. So I suspect that data was lost where you would have been able to do a shrinkflation piece of tracking.

38:34I might send a note to myself. I know someone who might be able to scrape it. Shrinkflation track, because I think it'd be fascinating. But no, you can't. And it's interesting, isn't it? Because the second question is, what is the supermarket? What is the retailer's role in all of this? I mean, they could sell themselves as the bulwark against rapacious. Well, I said Carrefour in France did start to label shrinkflation. But I think UK supermarkets are very powerful. And it would be interesting, of course, they're the ones who are pushing down the prices from the manufacturers and trying to get the, you know, to absolutely reduce manufacturers margins, increase their own margins and keeping going.

39:09So are the supermarkets there to police it for us? Or are they the ones who are responsible for pushing it down so that it works this way because they want to keep prices down? And it's worth, Karen mentioned their home bargains. I don't know specifically about home bargains, but it is worth noting. you can't assume that the product price of something is the same in every store. So many of the pound stores have their own sizes of products, sizes of coffee, sizes of packets of crisps. We talk about biscuit reduction. I mean, you buy a multi-pack of crisps these days and there's about four crisps in each packet because the multi-packs have less than the main retailed crisps.

39:48And often, even individual stores, one of the things that some of the pound stores did is negotiate slightly smaller packets so that they could have their, it's still being at their pound type level. So all of that fits in rather well, I think. We've got loads more of these. I just want to do... Susan, Waitrose own brand lavatory paper, bigger inner tube, fewer sheets, significantly poorer quality, that's her opinion, of course, and slightly lowered price. There was an online review thread that went on for weeks with multiple complaints. The Waitrose response to some made the misguided assumption that its customers are dumb.

40:23They continue to highlight the lower price. However, unlike, say, a chocolate bar, having less lavatory paper does not equate to using less. You just have to buy more. There was an article about this in the Times, and eventually they brought back the better quality product, albeit in an uneconomical size. Trevor, I like this one because I think we can all relate there. Trevor, even bread, he says. Even bread. I thought the 800-gram loaf was sacrosanct. Now there are plenty of 700-gram loaves out there. And I'm going to write this from Danny in Braintree. He said, logically, where this will all lead.

41:01He said, if you keep a Freddo at 10p, it would mean it would actually become invisible. Yeah, well, I'm just going to do three quickly on the same basis. Jim, my shampoo, a Boto Balsam Apple, frequent use, have just redesigned the bottle shape, which contains about 10 % less for the same retail price. Andrew, I've noticed that the Dairy Lee dunkers I buy for the kids have remained the same price, but now you get three in a pack instead of four. Joanna, skimflation two. Five pieces of pepperoni on a pizza when they used to be six. With that, play the theme tune.

41:41And it's not actually the theme tune, it's the mastermind theme tune, but people understand. So the current score, Adrian in this three option multiple choice has got eight right and 15 wrong. So you're getting very back close to what just random chance or any slightly better than random chance at the moment. Now, many people got very excited about the viral trend of turning themselves into an AI Barbie doll, as did our Adrian. Having seen that, he took it a step further, though. He decided that there was a potentially lucrative merchandising opportunity where he could turn himself into the UK's version of Yoda.

42:20Forget virtual. He's going the whole hog without pausing for breath. He got his credit card out and ordered a thousand Adrian Childs boxed dolls, which when you pull the string on the doll, give out Adrian's own words of wisdom. There are three versions. The first one says, enthusiasm is just an optimist's view of impending failure. The second, if a horse asks for a carrot, is it a nag? And finally, the zen-like, I've never been very good at self-deprecation.

43:03It's good, but you can't enjoy your own jokes this much, Martin. I'm sorry. It's not a good... He's literally crying. He's crying with birth. I enjoyed writing it. My work is very precious. It's the one bit of... I've just enjoyed looking at you. It's like working with the laughing police. Now, this all cost Adrian a lot of money and sadly he hasn't sold any of the dolls yet, which is why he's looking for a balance transfer. There you go. Right. We're into the question. To shift the debt to a 0 % card. Yet, Adrian, my Padwan, And even Yoda won't help you here. The question, if a credit card firm advertises up to 32 months 0 % interest balance transfer, what percent of the accepted customers must be given the full 32 months 0 %?

43:54So they're advertising it as an up to 32 months 0%. How many people must get, who are accepted, must get the full 32 months? A, 66%. B, 51%. C, there is no set percentage. Hmm. Well, if there's no set percentage, then the law is an ass on that, surely. Because if you said up to, up to and including, is that... Yeah, up to and including, 32 months, 0%. How many must get the actual 32%, the headline offer, as opposed to a backup rate, which is what you call it when they give you a rate that's not as good as the headline advertised rate? Well, the cynic in me would suggest the answer is C, but surely it can't be.

44:47Enthusiasm is just an optimistic view of impending failure. I'm going for what the law should be, and it seems reasonable to me that more than half. So do get this. So you're going for B, 51 %? Actually, no, I don't think it is actually because 51 % is too high. So I reckon it's C. I reckon it's actually nobody. So when you get a loan or a credit card, it has a representative APR on it. Now, the word representative is an incredibly important word that people need to understand. Representative is technically defined as at least 51 % of people should get the APR advertised. Now, we used to have typical rate APRs, but then where a typical rate APRs meant 66 % of people must get the advertised rate.

45:41But due to EU homogenisation, for some reason, we homogenised down to a worse outcome for consumers where only 51 % of people get the advertised rate. And I'm still campaigning and think now we're out of the EU. We should go back to typical rates rather than representative rates. But those are representative rate APRs. there when it comes to zero percent credit card advertising length you are correct there is no rule give him the hallelujah

46:11enjoy it so i should need to go with my cynical side now i should note that because this is a financial product there are financial regulations called the consumer duty and fairness even though there is no rule. I spoke to the FCA on this and they said, firms must ensure all promotions are clear, fair and not misleading. However, we would have concerns if the headline rate or period were not available to a significant number of customers or if any limitations on its availability were not made clear. If only a tiny proportion of accepted customers got the headline rate, then there is also a potential argument under the protection from unfair trading practice provisions of the Digital Markets Competition and Consumers Act 2024.

46:54So the answer is there's no set rule, but it has to be a reasonable rule. Now, actually, I've noticed Barclaycard used to offer up to zero percents. I've changed the way I start to communicate it recently. And obviously, the work I do on the site, we get a lot of people who are going through these type of systems, where we now actively publish the backup rate. Now, Barclaycard was one of the worst firms doing a really low backup rate. So it might be offering 32 months, zero percent. But if you weren't accepted for the 32 months, you might be just getting 14 or 15 months 0%, which whereas some firms have a 32 months 0 % as their main on the up to, and the backup rate's 26 months 0%, which is not so bad.

47:31And we started going much louder on publishing the backup rate. And interestingly, last week, Barclaycard launched its first long guaranteed rate 0%, i.e. where everybody gets the 32 months 0%. And I do, when I talk about balance transfers or I write about them, I always differentiate between whether it's a guaranteed rate, in other words, if you're accepted, you'll get it, or whether it's an up-to rate. And it's important people are watching out in their marketing. They will call them up-to's. If it's an up-to, you might be accepted, but you may get a much worse rate and you should check out what the backup rate is before you apply for that card, because you might be better going for a guarantee.

48:07Right, time to do some of those pod-only bits. So I'm joined by Producer Simon. Welcome, Producer Simon. Maybe I'll just call you Simon. I mean, I don't when it's just the two of us call you, producer Simon. Now, you told me before when we were chatting before the pod, you did something good financial this week, didn't you? Well, yeah. So when I started producing this pod, every week you were chastising a hal about the fact that he didn't have a will. Correct. And this week me and my wife finally got a will. So we've got, I think it's called a mirror will. So we sort of did it together. So yeah, a mirror will is basically you and your wife have exactly the same will, but just mirroring so yours goes to hers and hers goes to yours in that case yeah yeah yeah but it was an interesting thing to do it's something we've been kind of putting off for ages and thinking oh we should sort out that that you know it's one of those things should sort out at some point because you've got little ones yes and it's particularly sort of since we started having children it's become a bit more at the forefront of our mind and there is like obviously there is a part of it where you kind of you have to sort of say who you would like to look after your after our daughter in a horrible situation yeah exactly yeah my understanding is basically if we don't have a will, it could end up in a bit of a court case.

49:16Absolutely. Awful. It's worth letting your preferences be known and having those conversations and having those discussions first. I'm interested, if it's not prying too much, who broached the subject, you or your wife with it? You probably, because you're working on the podcast. How did she take it when you first spoke about it? Because people don't like talking about wills, especially when you've got young children, the thought surrenders. No, so we came at it basically from the exact same place of me. I think I brought it up originally when I first started doing this. And, you know, I was talking about it.

49:46But we were both very much on the same page of, yeah, we definitely do need to sort that out. And then Blinda saw a thing. So she was the one that was like, yeah, let's do this. Let's book it in. Well done to both of you. Next, it's a power of attorney. Yes. Yeah. Lasting power of attorney. Heaven forbid one of you lost your faculties. You're both very young and hopefully fit and healthy and it won't happen. And I hope it's a complete waste of money because you never need it. but just in case it's worth doing. Anyway, we should probably move on to other things. Well done, Simon.

50:17Let's get on to energy. Have we got any more energy questions on the energy direct debit cycle that we need to clear up? Yeah, we did get a few more sent in. Nicola sent in asking, can you discuss variable direct debits? Can anyone request one? Do all energy companies offer them? I don't understand why customers cannot be trusted to pay for actual usage. I know at Christmas, I'll spend more on groceries, but I don't prepay the supermarket in May. So absolutely right. There are two types of direct debit, monthly direct debit, which is the main one most people are on, where effectively your estimated annual cost is split out over a year and you pay the same each month and variable direct debit, which is where you each month, based on your usage, your direct debit is taken to pay for the energy that you've used in that month.

51:05Now, look, I understand the question. And there are some people will like variable direct debit, but many people struggle with the cash flow in the winter if they need to pay all of winter's bills in winter and find that just paying the same amount each month is much easier for them. Now, if monthly direct debit works well, it is a great budgeting concept. It helps. And to make it work well, make sure if you don't have a working smart meter, you're doing regular meter readings and you're keeping an eye on it. And there are also is my direct debit fair calculators out there where you can check up whether your direct debit is set at the correct level.

51:38What's very good is that you were asking me about variable direct debit. What I often get for people who hate the monthly direct debit system, they don't like direct debits, or more often they've been burned because it hasn't worked well for them, is people shift to what's called payment in receipt of bills. Now, payment in receipt of bills is where you build and then you pay for what you use each month. Now, you might think, hold on, isn't that what I described when I said variable direct debit. No. Variable direct debit is where you get a bill for what you use and the money is automatically taken by direct debit.

52:11Payment in receipt of bills is where you get the bill and you make the payment. Now, it sounds like a nuance different. It isn't. It's a big difference because direct debit is far cheaper than payment in receipt of bills. On the price cap, the price cap rate on average for someone in payment in receipt of bills is 6.5 % higher than it is for direct debit. Now, direct debit includes both types, monthly direct debit and variable direct debit. So in other words, for every£100 of energy you pay for on monthly direct debit or variable direct debit, it would cost you£106.50 in payment in receipt of bills.

52:51So if you really don't want monthly direct debit, then check whether your firm offers variable direct debit. But unfortunately, it isn't universally offered. it isn't necessarily offered on every tariff you just need to check whether it is available whether you can go there and that's the reason some will also settle for payment in receipt of bills because they can't get the variable direct debit it's worth noting while we're talking price cap prices anyway the very cheapest way to pay is prepayment which these days is fractionally cheaper than paying by direct debit only fractionally cheaper though and if you are on prepayment you get far less choice of tariffs to switch to which tends to mean that on average people on prepayment will be paying more because those on direct debit will have far more choice and will be able to get the better deals that are available out there.

53:33But yeah, variable direct debit is well worth a mention and I'm glad we got that question. Anything else? Yeah, Jane asks, would be good to clarify what the actual law permits when it comes to energy companies and what they do when it comes to increasing direct debits. I've spoken to so many people who feel they just have to accept whatever figure is presented to them. Well, no, you don't. I mentioned it earlier, condition 27 of both the gas and electricity supply licence rules. Number one, they must set up fair direct debits. And number two, they must give a clearer explanation. Now look, again, all of this assumes that they've got the right data.

54:05So you're working smart meter or you're giving your meter readings. If you're doing that and you find your direct debit is building up too much credit across the year, then you have a right to call them up and say, I'd like you to lower my direct debit. They also should be explaining if they think that you shouldn't lower your direct debit, why not? If not, you have a right to a fair direct debit. So you have to be reasonable too. Your direct debit should be making sure that it covers the cost over the year. You know, so if you estimate and remember, prices can change, although they actually tend not to factor in future price changes.

54:39So in July, we're expecting to see the energy price cap drop by about 7%. That won't be factored in your current direct debit. And anyway, that's too fine a margin. If you're within 5-6 % over the year, I haven't got a problem. 5-6 % over the year, I haven't got a problem. them. But yeah, I mean, you have a right to a fair direct debit and they must explain to you why your direct debit is too high if you're challenging them. And again, I'm afraid all I can say if not is make a formal complaint and go to the Energy Ombudsman. But I think firms are getting a little bit better at this when challenged.

55:07So challenged. And that is your direct debit set about right calculator is very useful for you to work out roughly what you should be paying based on your kilowatt hour usage to measure that up against what the firm is suggesting that its estimate is. Perfect. We started this podcast bit in credit when it comes to energy questions, but we're now down to being all square.

55:34And Simon, while we're wrapping everything up, let's unwrap a few more of our shrinkflation tellers. I've got some that I had beforehand. I think we've also had some messages in during the programme that you've got, haven't we? Yeah, yeah. We've got quite a few texts in. Actually, a few on the Jaffa Cake thing. Okay, yeah. A lot of people were backing up. Are we allowed to call it Jaffa Cake Gate? Jaffa Gate? Jaffa Cake Gate? Jaffa Cake Gate. Yeah. And one person bringing up the, was it involved in that? Do you remember the sort of cake versus biscuit situation for tax purposes? Yes, I do. Yeah.

56:05I mean, did that affect the profit margins and why they might have changed? I can't remember what the actual result was, whether it was a cake or a biscuit. So I'm not going to answer that. I'm pleading the fifth. Has anybody got in touch to say that they have any way of proving whether there's less Jaffa in a Jaffa cake than there used to be? No, a lot of people were backing Karen up on there have been less Jaffa cakes in the box. Yes, I think we're pretty rock solid on that. It's the amount of Jaffa. So Simon, you're the one who monitors the inbox for the pod. You can get in touch with us via martinlewispodcast at bbc.co.uk So if anybody out there having listened to this, can validate the, is there more, less or the same amount of Jaffa in a Jaffa Cake than there used to be?

56:50Then, Simon, I want you to keep your eagle eye on that and we will return to Jaffa Cake Gate. Right, let's do a few more translation things. Ah, dear. Andy, Cadbury Double Decker Multipack, gone down from 10 to 9 and again down to 7 and gone up from£1.50 a couple of years ago to, I think,£3 last time I was in Tesco. I've just stopped buying chocolate. Kathy, Cadbury cream eggs used to be in a multi-pack of six, like a normal egg box. Now you just get five. Valerie, tea bags often now have 70 to a box rather than the 80 per box, which has been the standard for decades. DeKat, Robinson's Cordial used to be one litre bottles, now 750 millilitres.

57:32Same price. What else have you got? Yeah, well, Taylor says that Coca-Cola is now all about the 1.75 litre bottles instead of two litre bottles. Exactly, they have shrunk that down so that the standard seems to be the 1.75. Interesting. And actually on Softdrinks, Marcus says, Softdrink, you used to be able to buy packs of 24 cans and now the normal size you see is an 18 can for basically the same price. And also, it's worth throwing in... I'm going to look out for that. Yeah, yeah, I think he's actually right on that. And they kind of brand it as a fridge, like it's ideal for sticking in the fridge.

58:03Yeah, it's the big multi-pack, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. And the big multi-pack was always 24, yes. And Gary from Brackley, he actually got, he texted in saying, and spare a thought for pubs and other size critical products. They can't shrink pints, etc. Yeah, that's interesting. So they are regulated that they have to put the price ups. And the truth is, the reason that firms use shrinkflation is because it works. Yes, our eagle-eyed listeners to this pod have been brilliant in reporting all the shrinkflation issues that are going on out there. And I'm sure there are many, many more as well that we haven't touched upon.

58:35But I would suggest they're probably in the minority. most people intuitively think something's smaller but don't have the actual detail to hand whereas if you're going in a pub where you know there's a legal measurement of what is a pub but what is a shop their only option if their cost base has gone up is to put the price up and then people are frustrated about the cost of things so yes i think it is interesting that we have regulated sizes on one thing but not on another thing of course the the solution as adrian mentioned earlier is that we have the price per gram when you buy stuff in the supermarket but even that is i mean it's very difficult to monitor that.

59:07I did put my note to see if I can find a way of doing it, but I don't know if the data's available. Fascinating. And my final one on shrinkflation comes from David from Twitter, who was a chocolate engineer and talks about chocolate thinflation. Start out with a very expensive set of 2000 plus 250 gram moulds. The marketing would then say, oh, can you do 225 grams or 200 grams instead? You hit a practical limit and then need new moulds for 180 grams, etc. Eventually, someone would blink and the market would reset to a thick chocolate like a Yorkie bar. So there you go. Someone who's actually worked in the manufacturing process and see that they shrink it down and then they go back the other way and they use it as a marketing, as a sales technique.

59:54Thank you, David. And thanks to everybody who sent in their shrinkflation tellers. Is that it? Are we done on shrinkflation? Yeah, perfect. Okay, it all fitted to size and scale exactly as it should have done.

1:00:10That's it for this week. If you've enjoyed it, please tell your friends you've been listening to the Martin Lewis podcast and suggest that they do too. We tend to put out a new episode every Thursday. You can subscribe to keep up to date and hopefully your pockets will be pleased with you. And if you haven't enjoyed it, as I often say...

1:00:30I got meals. I got to pay. So I'm going to work for the world every day. I got a mouth. I got a feed. So I'm going to make sure everybody eats. Martin Lewis is the founder of moneysavingexpert.com. But of course, other consumer and price comparison websites are available. You can get in touch with Martin's podcast production team by emailing martinlewispodcast at bbc.co.uk. The offers and rates mentioned in the podcast are correct at the time of recording. However, if you are listening on demand, it's worth double checking as details can date. Remember to subscribe on BBC Sounds and leave us a review however you listen.