Planning for vulnerable beneficiaries with John Brenchley

0:00Pete Matthew: Financial planning for families with vulnerable beneficiaries. I feel like we're both struggling to say that. Vulnerable beneficiaries. Well, I've lost a different versions of it before we're finished. Again, you have to try and probe people to think about things differently. And you don't want to be a doom mongerer, but it's just that bit of going, oh, so do you like his wife? Beautifully put. You can see her thinking away. She's all right. She'll know who she is. And she kind of went, yeah. Hi and welcome back to Meaningful Money. This is session number 645 and today I'm joined in person by Mr.

0:38Pete Matthew: John Brenchley of Broadchield Solutions. Hi John. Yeah, thank you for having me. It's really exciting. It's very cool. You're the first in-person guest I've had in the studio. So that's a kind of a special treat for me because normally I'm doing this on Riverside through a video call. Yeah, well I wanted to be in person, I think some of it, to meet you in person and go i've watched you for years and understand things but also just to go there's some passion in what i talk about and i think that's harder over a screen than necessarily for sure and we've got the kit and you've got family in cornwall so yeah uh it's not too far extra for you to come only about an hour and a quarter probably yeah no it's not too bad yeah it's an excuse to come down yeah worth it so thank you for joining me man i'm really grateful we're going to talk about planning for vulnerable beneficiaries, which is a subject I don't know very much about, but you do.

1:29Pete Matthew: And so we'll get to the story of how we connected in a minute. But I just think it's going to be a really, really useful session just in the, we've just had lunch together before hitting record. And it's like, oh, this is going to be so useful for so many people. So thank you for joining me. If you're watching and listening, any notes and links that we talk about will be at the show notes. That's meaningfulmoney.tv slash session645. Everything will be there. So let's get into it. So look, John, just let's start by a quick sort of who you are and what you do. Yeah. So John Brunchley, I am now an independent financial advisor and I specialize in families with vulnerable beneficiaries.

2:08And that came out of my own life when I went, hang on a minute, I've had a great job. I've lived and worked in the Middle East and I'm okay, but my son may never work a day in his life. And right, how do I look after our lives now? How do I think about our lives in retirement? And then how do I think about his life when we are no longer around? And how do I plan for that? And that led me to go, right, let's investigate different financial advisors and try and figure things out. And then to a point where I went, I think I've got to do this myself. Yeah, for sure. Actually, I'm not getting the answers back that I think I should be.

2:51And so over a period of time when, right, I was a executive in the oil and gas industry and went, I'm going to leave that because this is what I think I need to do. Doing it for myself and then had friends go, oh, can you help us? Well, I'm not a financial advisor yet. This is what I would do. Or these are the questions that I would go and ask a financial advisors. If they come back with good answers, great. Away you go. Through to, right, I'm going to set up. I'm going to do this. I'm going to focus on families that go, when we're dead, what do we do there? Yeah, and that's the extra bit.

3:24Pete Matthew: Talking about questions, there was a particular question that when you were, I guess, seeking advice for yourself and your own family before you got into it, you asked a particular question of your advisor, and it was a kind of blank look, I think that you got this sort of set you on this path, wasn't it? Yeah, I think I was going for advice and wanted to know. And I think for many financial advisors, they do a great job and they know about what they know about in their particular niche. And I wasn't worried about the pensions or the ISAs or the other things there. I was worried about the next phase of life for our son.

4:01And so I said, well, what's the difference between a vulnerable person's trust and a disabled person's trust and got a blank look. And they kind of looked at me and went, oh, they sound interesting. And I was thinking, you should be telling me about this. And you may not have all of the details, but you should be aware of them. And that was sort of the flag that I went, I think I need to find somebody else.

4:25Pete Matthew: Yeah, of course. And I couldn't find somebody else. And they are nuanced differences and they work for different situations. Yeah, I'm not sure I could have answered that question. And so maybe now, but yeah, it is a niche difference, like you say. Yeah. And it's also, you know, when I've spoken to other people, they're like, oh, well, we can do a discretionary trust. And they're like, no, that's totally different. In principle, yes, the child doesn't own the money. There are trustees that look after it. But there's huge tax implications on a discretionary trust that aren't there on a vulnerable person's trust or a disabled person's trust.

4:57And you go, well, actually, you can be vulnerable because your parents have died and you're a child. without a disability. But they function typically in very much the same way. But yeah, that was the question that made me go,

5:10Pete Matthew: okay, I need to think about something differently. Yeah, it would do, isn't it? And that was the trigger for you essentially deciding to do this yourself. So you've been how long in practice? Practice now for about five months. Yeah, it's a journey to get to that, isn't it? Yeah, doing all of the exams and you're doing that. So I was doing consultancy work and in and out of the Middle East studying to do this. And I was doing it not because I wanted to set up a business. I was doing it to go, I've got to find the answer myself. So that's why I'm going to study for it. And then as I started going through the journey, had people go, oh, can you help us with our family?

5:46And going, well, I'm not qualified, so I can't do this. But these are the questions that you should ask a financial advisor. It's not about percentages or money. It's about are they going to be okay when you're gone? And then getting to the point of going, well, why don't I set up something? here. There are far more people with vulnerable beneficiaries than you think of. And suddenly you go, oh my God, I'm five months in. I'm probably at my 18 month target of where I wanted to be. I'm busier than I expected to be. And I'm loving it. I wake up every day with a passion that, not I didn't enjoy my job before, but you go, why?

6:27Why am I doing this? And now I know why. And it's brilliant. And I love it. good and that comes across which is fab so we got to this point me and you sitting across the table

6:35Pete Matthew: from each other and i started with a q a episode with me and roj number 41 specifically do you want to tell a story about how that's happened and now we got here well somebody said oh because i listened to you i listened to a few others uh as i've been going through in terms of podcasts there and somebody said oh pete answered some questions about send families and vulnerable people probably I shouldn't have. And I listened to it and I went, I'm not sure he did, because actually he said you should go and speak to a solicitor. And I think he said, oh, well, I've Googled other financial advisors there, and there's this company, but I'm not sure they do it.

7:12I think they just talk about it, and that's it. And I reached out through the network, and that's the other thing with financial advice. There is a whole amazing community of people that go, that's not my niche, this is my niche, and you're better off speaking to them. So I reached out to Phil, who's the expert in sort of overseas and clients with money in different jurisdictions there, and said, oh, well, I'm going down to Cornwall to see my sister, going to the Manac. And Phil went, oh, hang on a minute. Right, you're going to see Pete on Thursday. Pop in and say hello, which led to the conversations that we've been having.

7:48And you're going, oh, okay.

7:49Pete Matthew: Yeah, I need to talk to you, John. Yeah, so that's Phil Billingham, mutual friend. and I think at least twice guest on this show in the past, sort of cross-border financial planner extraordinaire, brain the size of a planet, and a lovely guy to that. And so we ended up here. We had a conversation initially over LinkedIn, and then you popped in, and I said, look, we need to talk about this on air, because it is a subject that is obviously, I think I'm not even sure niche is the right word, because as you say, this is a huge need for a lot of families. but it's not something that your average financial planner does.

8:26Pete Matthew: It's certainly not a specialism for us. And I would be, well, I almost certainly would say this is not for us. You need to find a specialist. And so when a specialist walked into my office, I thought we need to talk about this. And one of the things that you've said to me in kind of preparing for this is that there's almost a kind of different starting point for financial planning for families with vulnerable beneficiaries. I feel like we're both struggling to say that. Vulnerable beneficiary. Well, I've lost a different versions of it before we finished. It's a different kind of starting point.

8:56Pete Matthew: So do you want to just say what you mean by that and how your thinking is on that? Yeah. And obviously, financial advice is different for everybody. There's so many different types of clients. But the most obvious thing is, I've got a number of pensions. I want to consolidate them. Yeah. Fairly straightforward. Right. Okay. Or I'm thinking about retirement. What do I do next? Or I'm in the 60 % tax bracket. These are the adverts that you see and you go, fairly straightforward. It's about you now. Then it's about you in retirement. Yeah. And, well, if there's anything left, okay, you'll pass it on to the next generation.

9:29Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And obviously more complex than that, but that's it. And when clients come and speak to me, just as I was, they kind of go, I don't care about me in retirement. I don't care about me now. It's about when I've gone.

9:44Pete Matthew: Yeah. So that is the starting point that you go, right, when you die, What do you need? When do you need it? How quickly do you need it? What is the needs of your vulnerable beneficiary there? Are they verbal? Are they nonverbal? Are they hospitalized? Or do they need medical care? What's the cost of that? And then it gets really kind of deep and emotional because you're going, right, what's the life expectancy? Yeah, sure. Right, okay, how do we plan for that? So let's try and figure out how much you think you'll need from when you die. And then you start talking about, so when do you think you're going to die?

10:22Right, okay, are there medical conditions there? How does that work out? So you get into the personal very quickly and you start talking about that before you've even talked about your money now.

10:33Pete Matthew: Yeah, right. And then you start going, right, so who are the guardians going to be? Who are the people that are going to administer some of this? Right, what about trusts? How do we set things up there for that money to be available? and so you start working through that and vulnerability is as simple as they get very anxious or they're not great around money or they could be exploited all the way through to there's extreme medical conditions and this is what they're going to need so you've got to put all of that in context once you've got that sorted out you then start talking about wills letter of wishes, trustees, guardianships, how's that going to work?

11:16Maybe there's court of protection involvement as well. So you get all of that on the table and go, right, let's start mapping that out. And then you go back to, so where are you now? Right. Okay. What about a job? Okay. What about pensions? What about ISIS and insurance and the other things? And then it's about building that bridge from where you are now to where you need to be and then retirement kind of slots in between and and you've got to to live but also so there's the disability price tag so they say for a family with a vulnerable child on average it's about 1100 pounds a month extra costs that are involved either for for medical equipment or schooling or just okay day-to-day living there and you go, right, so you might also have the fact that your partner's not working.

12:09I was going to say that. Yeah, right. Okay.

12:12Pete Matthew: Yeah. That's coming out from both ends, isn't it? You've got lower income and a higher cost of living. Yeah, totally. And so you've got to throw all of that into the mix. And then there's other things that you go, right, do you get any state benefits now? What are they? How much are they? What level are they? Because that can determine whether you get a disabled person's trust or not based on the level of disability payments that you get in that classification. So you put all of that in the mix. And when you're talking about retirement, it might be that people go, right, well, I'm going to give up work then and I'm going to do this.

12:48But more often than not, it's a case of going, yeah, our son or our daughter is going to be living with us or they're going to be in some kind of home that we're going to be around and we're going to be supported. So there may be plans to go off and travel or to do different things, but there's always that additional cost coming in, even in retirement. So that's the bit that you go, right, we have to think a bit differently. We're not just talking about a pension that will get you through your retirement and anything that's left over is nice. And that's bonus for the kids. This is about going, let's plan for the kids from day one, how much, who, what's going to need to be done to just make sure everything's okay.

13:27and so when people say John what do you do for it for a living I kind of go I help people just sleep a little bit easier at night because it's that one thing that you go actually they're going to be all right when I'm gone right that's okay it's rewarding work yeah I love it I love it it's it's far harder than I thought it would be the financial aspects of it's relatively easy yeah but it's the conversations with parents and they're going well my son's going to live this long or my daughter's got this condition and this is involved and i get it and it's when you're in the community there's the black humor or the the sense of humor that you can say things that you wouldn't necessarily say to other people but it's also the bit that you know i might be talking to you and then your child might walk in and people would naturally feel like oh yeah sorry i got it

14:17Pete Matthew: My son's a bit spicy as well. And you just have kind of a flow that's different. And I've got one client that's like, I don't want to do anything sort of on screen or things. Can I just do it all by email? I'm normally up at two or three in the morning looking after my child because I do the night shift with them. And it's like, I'll have to see you at some stage. I'll have to check your passports and your identity and where you live. But if that's the way that works for you, I'll adapt to you. So yeah, no, I love it. Well, and that comes across, John. So I feel like a lot of financial planners kind of pay lip service to the multi-generational thing.

14:54Pete Matthew: But for you and for the families that you work with, it very much is the starting point. But like you say, we're starting almost at the point of transition from one generation to the next, because it's the vulnerable generation that this is kind of all for, and then work back. So I mean, that's a totally different starting point. But you mentioned the disability premium, did you call it? So it's typically the disability price tag. Price tag, right. Okay, so you mentioned that. But I imagine there's just many challenges that the families you're working with are sort of coming up against. You mentioned one of them.

15:29Pete Matthew: You mentioned exploitation or potential exploitation. Yeah, and some of it is. Like my son, I think, right, he would be great. knows, could talk, could speak to people there. But if he got money, he would spend it all in a heartbeat on whatever he's really loving at that moment. Or to make friends with other people, they could say to him, oh, can you buy me this? Can you buy me that? And I go, hmm. And I was talking with one client, and she was saying, our daughter's got a job, she's got a house, but she keeps getting into debt because she does keep just paying for other people. and we're worried that if we leave her a sum of money that her friends could say oh your your mum promised to buy me a car when when she passed away so you've got to buy me a car there and you go right okay that that's a bit tricky so we're not necessarily worried about her per se but we're worried about her being exploited so we had a conversation and so my brother-in-law ex-special Forces military guy had the nickname Uncle Scary.

16:37It was a case of, you need an Uncle Scary.

16:40Pete Matthew: Right. So let's put the money into trust. But we've got to involve your daughter in that conversation, because it's not that we don't trust you. It's about going to take away the anxiety of you potentially having people asking for things that you're uncomfortable and you don't feel like you're able to say no, let's put the money in trust. And you can be a trustee and a beneficiary, but Uncle Scary can be a trustee as well. And so when somebody comes and says, oh, your mom said she would buy me a car, so you've got to buy me one, your daughter can then go, oh, okay, yeah, yeah. But we've got to ask Uncle Scary because he's the one that controls the money.

17:20So it's not her saying no, but it's her feeling like, oh, I'll tell him to say no. And then it's him saying no yeah so it's the do you have an uncle scary or an auntie scary or somebody that you can go they will always do the right thing for my child and let's have that conversation now so that it's not a surprise when you die that your daughter goes well hang on a minute you've put everything in trust because you didn't trust me or that you're having that conversation in advance and that's also a lot of what i do is is to go right what's the letter of wishes let me explain it to you? How does it work?

17:57Let's bring in the beneficiary there to explain to them, but let's have that conversation with trustees so that they're well aware of what needs to be done, how, what were your wishes or how you would like things to be done. So yeah.

18:12Pete Matthew: I feel like that's more important than ever. Expression of wishes, kind of getting this stuff down. It's not binding, but it's almost a kind of like a how-to. It's like a guide for, you know, of the particular needs of the beneficiary and their likes and dislikes and things like that. And just, I mean, what a gift to a trustee that is. Oh, totally. And that's why, for me, it's a service where I'll say, well, let's get the trustees around the table and have that conversation there that they can ask you why or what do you mean by that or get things down. Because it's not the will that's legally this is going to happen, then this is going to happen.

18:47And if that can't happen, then this happens. It's the conversation that you go, this is what I would like to happen. And if it's not possible, if the law changes, if circumstances change, then you know the thought or the meaning behind what we're writing there and you can adapt it from there. But also that thought of going, you want people of a similar age to your beneficiary because you can't choose people that are all your own age because they're not going to be around. So there's a lot of thought that goes into, if you're asking a particularly young person to take this on board. Help them out.

19:24Yeah, you don't want it to be a big surprise as well. And you want them to be able to ask you those questions and then know that this will change every few years. You update it just as you'd update a will there to go, actually, this is what I'd want for them now. And then it's just involving everybody.

19:41Pete Matthew: Yeah, so, so important. You also mentioned a case to me when we were sort of preparing for this where you've definitely kind of stepped above and beyond the sort of financial planning bit. This is the five families that you were talking to me about. Which I guess because you are deep in this with your own family, you have a view on this that might never have occurred to me. But do you want to just tell that story about these five families? Yeah, so this is, and again, so on my website I have a resources page. And part of it, a bit like you with the Meaningful Money Academy there, is to go, you can do as much of this yourself as you can.

20:18And if you want other things, here you go. So I had a client that was talking to me and she said, actually, there's five children that when we're gone, we'd like them all to live together because they all get on with each other. They all know each other. And how do we do that? And so automatically I start going into the corporate mode and go, right, do you want to set it up as a company or a charity? What do you want to do this? Are you going to have on-site medical care? And talking away and then going, so who's going to design the house? Because actually there's a SEND architect and she's phenomenal and she designs places with bed access so that you can get around.

20:57And actually there's another person that I know and what she does is she does interior design, not only for hospitals or for care areas there, but for people's houses because what you think is great might not be for a vulnerable person. and depending on that person's vulnerability, it will obviously be totally different as well. So there's a whole raft of different resources that you go, let's involve them, let's speak to them. Here you go. So the finances is a part of what I do, but it's that, like I say, are you sleeping better at night because, oh, actually, there's somebody that can do this, there's somebody that can do that.

21:35And that's all just there for free and to go, right. But also for businesses, so if there are anybody watching this that go, oh, we support vulnerable children, or we support different parts of the SEND community, get in contact. I'll put you on the website. We'll have a conversation first. But yeah, great, because it's the more that we can do to support the community overall, the better. And speaking of which, you're the only advisor on... The National Autistic Society database.

22:03Pete Matthew: I mean, it's great for you. That's astonishing, though, isn't it? It's sad. Yeah, it is. It's great, because I get all the phone calls. might change after this hopefully yeah in a way because it's the bit that i go i came out of this out of necessity but financial advice has been around since year dots and you think how can we be now at a position where i look and go there are no other financial advisors on the national Autistic Society database, what do you have to do? It's not difficult. You have to show that you know what you're talking about. You have to show a connection there. But there should be others.

22:48There should be so many more. And there's got to be financial advisors with autistic children, with vulnerable children. Help other people. There should be more than me.

23:00Pete Matthew: One of the things people say to me quite often is, you know, we're coming to you, Pete, because we don't know what we don't know. You know, they're kind of into personal finance. They have an interest in it. That's why they listen and watch or whatever. But they want us, me, Jackson's to kind of take a look at their situation. And as somebody sort of one step removed, so we can just look and say, okay, have you considered this? And maybe they haven't. And I feel it's like, it's our job to do that. But I feel like there's a whole other layer of this potentially, because a lot of this is, as you said, is what happens after the parents or whatever have died or grandparents.

23:40Pete Matthew: And you had a situation which a lot of people listening to this might say, well, yeah, obviously. But it was a real kind of revelation to this lady. And it was the lady that left money to her brother, I think. Yeah. Well, she's got a vulnerable son and her and her partner had separated there. And she said, yeah, yeah, well, actually, when I die I'm going to leave everything to my brother he's going to look after our son and all the money goes to to him so if that was it fine yeah exactly and it's the bit that again you you have to to try and probe people to to think about things differently and you don't want to be a doom mongerer but it's just that bit of going oh so do you like his wife and you can beautifully put you can see her thinking away and she's all right she'll know she'll know who she is and she kind of went yeah and it's like well do you think you'd like her new husband if brother dies first yeah and it's the bit that you go because actually if you leave everything to your brother something happens to him it automatically goes to his wife unless there's a specific will there and and if she remarries potentially something happens to her all of your money then can go to her new husband And that's not saying that they'll be a bad person and they'll have bad intent.

25:01But actually, wouldn't you just want to control that from the outset?

25:05Pete Matthew: Yeah, you can't force your brother to make a will that looks after your son because that's his prerogative. No. But you can make your own arrangements. And so you can put the money in a specific trust there and deal with all of the issues that come with that and make your brother one of the trustees for that trust and have other people ready should something happen to him. But that money then will be locked effectively always to follow the wishes that you had for your son. And so that's the bit that you're just going to go, this is not about money. This is about the bigger sort of questions there that go, well, what if?

25:42What if that? What about that? Right. Okay. Now, should something happen, your son is always going to be okay. Right. Yeah. Strange situation. Yeah, exactly.

25:52Pete Matthew: But it's surprisingly common. What if is a very powerful question, I think, because you take people on kind of thought journeys then and it really makes them think. So you are obviously building a practice around this financial planning practice, Broad Shield Solutions. And you've come up with a kind of you call it your safe protocol. Safe being an acronym. I feel like, you know, this is I want to kind of prompt the listeners and viewers to kind of think about this stuff. rather than because it's so such a every family in every case would be different it's very difficult to say well okay you should do this and then that and then that but in building a protocol you've kind of um uh taken it a sort of a piece at a time and and this is how you kind of address these things so if you're happy to go through that uh let's start with s yeah it'll give just give some folks some things to think about so s stands for what so sabotage and state benefits And it's the thing that you go, okay, you potentially have spent years jumping through hoops to get a diagnosis.

27:01And that's something that you go, right, we've got it now. Brilliant. There's benefits that will be there for our child to help them. Right, okay. Some of that may be money. Some of that is just support with government services. if you die and leave money to your child directly, the government says, oh, okay, you've got more than£16 ,000, you get zero state benefits. You get nothing. And you lose that status. And you go, all right, okay. If it's more than£6 ,000, you proportionally lose that benefit there. And for some people, they could say, well, you know, the state shouldn't be paying for things.

27:43You've got the money to pay for it. Fair enough. Okay, I get that. But it's more about, right, how do you get those benefits back when you know the hoops that you had to jump through, and you're not there to jump through those hoops because you've passed away, and your child then is going, right, okay, I used to be able to do this. Yeah. And so the S is the bit of going, think about who you leave the money to. And for financial planning generally, trusts may or may not be the right answer there. But for vulnerable children, it's often, okay, yeah, it can be quite important on how and choosing the right trust there.

28:23And it's about going, okay, with this money, we can provide the nice little extras that are there. We're not doing the day-to-day living costs per se. We're providing the extras that make life just a bit more enjoyable for everybody or a bit easier for everybody. So, yeah, that's it. Okay.

28:40Pete Matthew: So sabotaging state benefits. I think unless you're in it, what you said just there about the time it can take to get a diagnosis, and you have to have that before all the rest of this stuff comes up. I feel like I wouldn't have a clue about that because I've never lived it. But you can't imagine what it would be like for then the vulnerable beneficiary. Parents died. It's like, well, okay, up to now I've experienced this, this help from these various different sources and benefits coming in, all that sort of stuff. And now, you know, where do you even start? I can't imagine that. It's deep, well, they're called vulnerable beneficiaries for a reason.

29:19Pete Matthew: So S is for sabotaging and state benefits. A is for access. And it's the bit that you go, you don't have to think about when you die. You also have to think about when your child turns 18. Yeah. Because then they're no longer a child. Yeah, I feel like people miss this as well. I know I would. Yeah, and it's the bit that you go, so they will always be your child, but legally, according to the government, they are no longer your responsibility. And that's the position that you go, right. Right. So what do you do if they are just vulnerable because they're going to be exploited? How can you help to protect them?

30:03Right. Okay. Maybe you can do a power of attorney and you can have the discussion with them to say, right, this is what we're going to do. This is why we're going to do it here. We can work with you on your money or health to make sure your wishes are carried out and you don't get exploited. or there are certain things that we can just be there for you and protect it. And then you go, right, but what if they're nonverbal? What if they don't have the capacity to understand that?

30:32Pete Matthew: Because you can't sign an LPA for them. Right, okay, so then you're talking about court of protection. And again, it's the kind of thing that you go, you can prepare for some of this, but until you get to that point, right, how are you going to work through that? So you have to think about when I'm alive, but actually they're over 18, right, how do we put other things in place to help and support them as well? And then if you're looking at going, right, and for the future with guardians that are going to be involved, maybe we need to do an LPA for them and go, right, okay, let's bring them involved as well.

31:13So it's the big thought of not just when I'm dead, as it were, it's the bit of going, right, what's the access that we need now to be able to keep life running for them smoothly?

31:24Pete Matthew: So important. And again, so easy, unless you're in it to forget and not to consider. So A for access. F for? Financial control. And this is the bit more about managing the money afterwards, the exploitation potentially that we talked about. And this is where Uncle Scary sort of slots in and goes, don't worry, I will step into that bit. I will be the person that says no. and also as I say looking at this to go who are the the young people of a similar sort of age that will be around for as long as my beneficiary is going to be around and they can help and support there because that financial control is important and as important as the emotional control so for our son we've got a nephew that is smarter than smart exceptionally well read up on finances and you go, that's great.

32:19Emotionally, got a totally different person. And we go, actually that balance of not only is the right thing to invest in for financial returns, but what's the right thing to invest in for emotional returns, for the benefit of our son, for what he would want going forward. You need that balance of things there. So yeah,

32:37Pete Matthew: F for financial control. So kind of expression of wishes or letter of wishes would be a part of that yeah i feel like it it's hard to find good trustees isn't it it's a big process yeah and and that's why like i say for me it's a case of going let's get them around the table and don't just leave it in your will that somebody goes oh i'm a trustee am i for the next 40 years yes Exactly. And you should also give them an opt out to potentially go, right, okay, you could do it for so long. And especially for families there, it may be that they go, well, their brother or their sister is happy to do that.

33:24Or maybe not. And saying that's okay. You know, you weren't born into this world to look after your sibling, but let's have that conversation that maybe you can understand the intent on certain decisions and you can be the go-to person that can help people think about certain things. But let's bring the people around the table. And as I said before, with that, it may be involving the beneficiary as well to say this is what's going to happen and this is why. And you know that if these are your triggers here, you're more likely to make a decision that may not be in your interest there. So everybody's aware that you've said it's okay if they step in at this point or if they say no to certain decisions at that point.

34:11So I think it's key to bring people around the table there.

34:15Pete Matthew: And I guess you're helping people draft these expressions, these letters of wishes, and just providing a thinking, a challenging partner to help them think stuff through. Yeah, totally, totally. So some of it is, I did think about going, oh, here's a template that you can take off the website. But it's more, let's have a conversation and I could effectively build a template for you and give it to you for free and go, here you are, this is it. These are the questions that you should think about. If people want to take that further and go, can you be involved, John? Can you sit there in the room?

34:47And because sometimes parents know certain things and don't realize what they do for their children. And I know when we were going through the myriad of forms that you need to do, had people say to us, but you don't realize what you do for your son. You think it's normal, for want of a better word, or natural, but actually you go above and beyond. And you can help translate that to the guardians when you're having discussions to go, yeah, it might be that, you know, you're cutting up their food and you think they're an adult. It might be that you're just there to have a conversation with them and go, I think we should take this decision now because you're getting a bit stressed, because something's not quite right.

35:26And yeah, so bringing people around the table to do this. And this is why, for me, this process, like I say, that the finances is part of it, but it's a long journey before you even start looking at finances to go, right, now we're set. We understand what you're going to need. We understand how it's going to be managed. The people are comfortable to do this. We've thought about a few more questions. Right, okay, now let's have a look at the bridge from here to there.

35:53Pete Matthew: It feels like there's a lot deeper foundations needed, wider perhaps. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And sort of covering off as many bases as you can kind of think about ahead of time. So that's F for financial control. Yeah. And E finally for? So E is the estate and probate delays. Okay, yeah. And again, you think standard financial advice. Yeah, you've done your pension, you've had your life, you die. Right, okay. And you can talk about, okay, inheritance tax and tax-free and how much is going to be available. But typically you go, yeah, but that probate period could be six months, 12 months, longer if there's complexities there.

36:35But your child can't wait. Maybe they've got medical conditions that you go, they're going to need this funded. So that's where I talk about a two-bucket strategy that's not just getting you through your life and if the stock market goes up and down. Yeah, so a cash flow ladder that we would talk about.

36:51Pete Matthew: Yeah, right. Not just that. No, but this is the bit of go, there's money now, and there's money that will go through probate and through the will. And it's also maybe if you've got two children, like I say, maybe one of them's NeuroSpicy and maybe one of them's not. NeuroSpicy, love that. But yeah, so you talk about that and you go, this will come to you over time, da-da-da-da, but your sibling needs support now. So, right. Right. That's when we're going to, and with pensions coming into the estate. Yeah, it's not going to help, is it? No, that's massively different. And this is where we can work with, say, grandparents or other people to go, right, there's whole of life insurance.

37:33And that, you're either alive or you're not alive. So there's a payment. You do have to pay until the day you die, as it were. And you've got to be able to go, there's that money there to do this. But it is a far quicker payout than going through payment. So you can have potentially a trust set up already with an amount of money in there, or you can have money that goes, this will cover this and that's going to be okay. But the insurance money is going to be the big part of it. That will pay out into trust. It will be a vulnerable person's trust or a disabled person's trust that will be there ready.

38:07And that will cover at least the few years that the probate could take to get through there. So it's that part that you go, right, okay, we know that there's going to be something available relatively quickly to help through. We know the rest of it is going to go through the ordinary probate position and take its time. And I think, again, for some people that you'd go that they live a standard life, they don't want to give money away because they go, well, it's my money and I want to look after it. and I may need it for care home costs or for other things. Or they go, well, I don't want to put it into trust and then not.

38:51Access, yeah. Yeah, but this is where you could go, okay, maybe what the grandparents could do is go, you've got some excess income. You could have a whole-of-life insurance policy that pays out to look after this vulnerable beneficiary. That's a great gift that you could do there. And let's make this a family solution to a big problem rather than just the parents going, well, I can't afford this or I don't know how to do that or I don't know how to do other things. So, yeah, how to manage those. We need some money quickly with, OK, the rest of it is going to go through the standard probate process of wills there.

39:33So, yeah.

39:33Pete Matthew: Yeah. No, it's some good lateral thinking there. I like it because like grandparents particularly, it's like, OK, how can I help? what can I send the money to? And you wouldn't automatically think of a whole-of-life policy, but actually you could really get quite a lot of bang for the buck there, potentially subject to underwriting and all that. But I agree, bringing pensions into the IHT regime, I mean, we all know the government has not thought this through, this sort of six-months kind of limit to get the tax worked out, paid. I feel like that's ambitious. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And there's likely to be longer, isn't it?

40:11Pete Matthew: And so it's a factor. Whereas it used to pay out really quickly. And again, you'd go, well, it can pay out outside of the estate and go straight to whoever you want it there, and that's it. And so now not only is it going to be hit by tax potentially, but it's going to be delayed by so much longer. So that's the bit where, yeah, you need to start thinking a bit more creatively in terms of what do they need? How much do they need? How long are they going to need it? Right, let's have a look at your estate. What can be done there? to not impact your day-to-day. Because there's some families where I'll talk to and go, actually, are you getting the match from your employer?

40:46Is your pension right? Okay, you should potentially spend more time with your child. You should go on more holidays. You should do more things there and maybe put less money into your pension because there are going to be other ways to sort things out. And this is how we can give you the best memories for you, but also for them. because it's not just about the financials. It's about tax relief, is it?

41:10Pete Matthew: No, no, no. In fact, it's not even remotely about that. Anyway, but I think particularly for these families, the conventional wisdom says, well, it's free money. Get the tax relief. Might not be the right thing. No, no, no. Context is everything, isn't it? I feel like your kind of journey started with that question that you asked the advisor, what's the difference between a disabled person's trust and a vulnerable person's trust? Care to answer that? So you could be vulnerable just because you are a child there with no disability, but your parents have died. So regular child, as it were, non-neuro-spicy, but just there, but vulnerable because you are a child.

41:52A disabled person's trust, you'd go, right, you typically have a level two or above disability. So for a PIP payment or a disability living allowance payments, they're graded one to fall there. So if you've got two or above, then you would qualify for a disabled person's trust there. And when you put money into a trust, and again, you'll know better than I will, there's an amount of tax that you typically pay on putting money into a trust because the government goes, actually, you're setting up a discretionary trust. Who's it going to be for? We don't know. So we're going to tax you from day one.

42:26Pete Matthew: Punitive rights. Yes. And you go, right, you're hit with that. With a disabled person's trust, they go, okay, you won't be hit by that. Yeah. And every, I want to say 10 years, but every 10-year period, the trust is going to be reassessed and the government's going to go, we want a chunk of that as well if it's a standard discretionary trust. With a disabled person's trust, that's not involved as well. So there are significant, shall we say, financial benefits as well. Kind of as it should be, I would say. But there's also limitations that the government goes, right, you can only spend a certain amount on the management of that trust.

43:03so you can't have the trustees that will go off to Barbados and have a meeting and that's good as well isn't it yeah protecting the beneficiary exactly so it's got to be used for that but what it does mean is that it can only be spent on certain things there and again that's the bit that for some people it's not right because it can be quite restrictive and it can say right it's not used for the day-to-day living expenses it's used for the little extras to do things to be able to to make life even better. Right. Okay. And for some people they go, no, no, we want them to have full access and control.

43:38We're going to go for. So a standard discretionary.

43:40Pete Matthew: Yeah. Standard discretionary trust there. So fascinating. I really enjoyed this, John. I mean, honestly, I feel like we could talk for hours and I'm sure we've barely scratched the surface, but I also think we've probably given, you know, perhaps families who are, you know, just becoming aware of a diagnosis for their child or whatever. And suddenly like their world is changing. massively hopefully giving them some hope yeah um and some things to think about and um what we need to do now is to give them somewhere to go so how can people find out more about the brilliant work that you're doing thank you so just www.broadchild.solutions you can look up on linkedin john brenchley uh and i'm there but also as i say there's the resources page so it's broadchild.solutions forward slash resources.

44:26Have a look, find some information there. There's all sorts of different things. And if you want, contact me and I can add more information on there. But there's also broadsheet.solutions forward slash legacy hyphen quiz. Okay. And with that is a set of questions. And I don't see the results. But basically, you go through and it will ask you questions like, do you have a will? Yes, no, maybe thought about it. right okay and do you have a trust yes no thought about it what happens if there's a set of really simple questions at the end of it you get a report that it says okay you've scored x out of 100 okay and it will highlight some areas that you may need to to think about it'll highlight other areas that you're doing quite well right what you do with that that's up to you like i say i don't capture the results of those quizzes and if you say john i want to book an appointment and have a chat I'll say, okay, what did your score show?

45:26And what are the areas we need to talk about? But also, if you're going to go and speak to another financial advisor take that with you and say And ask them the questions

45:37Pete Matthew: Yeah, this is, or not even ask them the questions They can answer them Yeah, but go help me with this This is what I think I need You know, I'm not going to speak to every family with a vulnerable child Most financial advisors, if they can be aware of these things and I say many of them will be use that to help them out through there. Yeah, for sure. John, your passion is evident and obviously understandable with your own family situation. And I love talking to people who are zealous for a cause. You know, it makes for a great conversation and it means I can just kind of tee you up and let you talk.

46:13Pete Matthew: But I've really enjoyed chatting with you. Thank you so much for joining me. I'll make sure that all those links are in the show notes. So that is it. No worries. Thank you very much. That is it for this week. show notes are at meaningfulmoney.tv slash session 645. Next week, me and Roger are back, another Q &A. Got some big changes coming up though in the new year. Lots of cool things happening at Meaningful Money, so stay tuned for that. But I really hope you enjoyed it. My thanks again to John. Thank you for watching. We'll see you next time. Thanks, Pete.