The Fault Lines of Finance with Philippa Hann and Moira Somers

0:00Pete Matthew: Hi and welcome back to Meaningful Money. This is session number 640. I'm joined today by Dr. Moira Somers and Philippa Hann who have written a book. Here it is. It's called The Fault Lines of Finance and it's about why things go wrong in the finance world. Why good people do bad things. The tagline is understanding and preventing financial misconduct. so the conversation uh we were fraught with technical issues so actually as i record this top and tail i haven't actually checked all the output and everything but hopefully it's okay uh moira was over in calgary and in a hotel room slightly sketchy line so hopefully we're okay um but it's a brilliant conversation honestly this book is i feel like it's a sort of not a generational book but it's like it's one of these books that's gonna i think be really really important because it addresses some stuff that we don't talk about in finance why things go wrong how good people do bad things there are reasons right it's not because they're bad people and just what that means is sort of practically so it's a brilliant book uh anybody in the finance world in the sort of professional side needs to read it without doubt but actually it's a brilliant book for anybody uh to read definitely aimed at the profession but uh it's worth a read so So here is my conversation with Maura and Philippa.

1:25Pete Matthew: It is my pleasure and privilege to welcome Philippa Han and Dr. Maura Summers to Meaningful Money. Maura, Philippa, welcome. How are you doing today?

1:35Philippa Hann: Thank you. Thank you.

1:37Pete Matthew: Good. Great. And Maura, you're joining us from where, did you say? I am in a hotel room in Calgary, Alberta. Beautiful. I was in Canada very recently, actually in Toronto, to see my favourite band. and it's true what they say about Canadian people. They're just universally lovely. So Maura is having a little bit of difficulty with the connection. So I'm hoping that you will be able to make it through this, Maura. But I'm getting some sort of air conditioning noise, so I may just mute you in and out. So I hope you don't mind. But actually, while I've got you unmuted, Maura, can you just give us a little bit about your backstory really, who you are, what you do, and sort of how we've got to this point?

2:16I am a neuropsychologist by training. My interest has long been on what makes it hard for people to follow through with professional advice and their own best intentions. And some time ago, that turned from why people don't follow medical advice. I was affiliated with a medical school, and I got asked if I could bring some of that research to the financial domain. And that just led to a whole new ball of wax, as they say. And then I met this lovely colleague of mine at a conference and we turned our attention to how come sometimes people get involved in some unfortunate things in misconduct. That's what leads us to this place today.

3:07Pete Matthew: Fantastic. Thank you. Philippa, same question to you, please. Just your backstory, if that's all right.

3:11Philippa Hann: Okay. So I am a lawyer by training. I spent 20 years suing financial advisors, wealth managers and banks. And in 2023, I left my law firm where I was an equity partner. I was head of litigation. I was on the board. I was head of the financial service team. And I walked away actually due to the power of financial planning because my amazing financial planner said to me, you know, you don't have to do this anymore, don't you? So I left. And Moira and I spent a year researching and part writing the book. And then I started work as CEO of Paradigm Norton, a financial planning firm.

3:55Pete Matthew: I'm going to use this opportunity to say not just a financial planning firm, but one of the firms that I hold in extremely high regard and model what I'm trying to do at Jackson's on. So it's a real pleasure for me to have you on, Philippa. And we've met a couple of times in the past. and yeah love what you're doing with there and what barry uh the team have done in the sort of decades before that so you guys have written a book called the fault lines of finance which i mean is incredibly detailed but i can sort of why good people do bad things sometimes and a little bit about why this industry seems to potentially lend itself to things going wrong so why this book and why now philipa do you want to answer that one first and then i'll come to maura

4:37Philippa Hann: Yeah, I mean, after 20 years of, as I say, being involved in financial services litigation, there was a question that I wanted to answer, which was exactly that. Why do good people do bad things? Because the people I met on the other side of the courtroom or the mediation room largely were not psychopaths. I met the odd one. Largely, they were just really normal human beings who were slightly irritated about being, having a complaint leveled against them. And when I met Moira, really, it was this incredible conversation to try and answer that question. so for me it was initially a punctuation to the end of my legal career and it has morphed into a bit of a I wouldn't say crusade but I don't think other people are really talking about this there's a lot of stuff about why clients behave the way they do around money there isn't very much around why the why the advisors behave the way that they do and that's the question I'm really interested in.

5:47Pete Matthew: Yeah, I absolutely agree. It's not spoken about even remotely enough. Moira, is there a sort of a succinct answer to the question, why do good people do bad things? I feel like you're best placed to answer this. No, there's not really a succinct one. There's lots of reasons. And part of it is that we often stumble into it. We're humans, we make mistakes. We don't see it coming, including our own thinking problems. We age. We develop addictions. We get really busy, and we just fail to file or to sign. We try to help in situations that really are not ours to offer help in. so some of these things are really unfortunate circumstances and out of a sense of misplaced duty or out of a desire to just make it stop or go away we sometimes do things we ought not to for sure that was kind of the overriding message really is this it felt like there was no judgment in the book but really just a desire to explain i mean obviously there's some kind of outlier cases which we should be judging hard right but for most people like you say people fall into some of these things and maybe the situation makes that more likely um i agree philipa that we're not talking about this enough and i in reading the book i find myself sort of like nodding a lot saying yes absolutely and you make an early suggestion um that anybody working with other people's money should get their own relationship to money in order early on and i absolutely agree why is that such a important thing philippa do you want to take that one money is it's such an

7:43Philippa Hann: emotional thing isn't it it's it's not just a tool that we use to survive um you know animals don't have money it's a peculiarly um human thing isn't it and so we talk in the book about um just being aware whether you're using money to signal to soothe or to serve and there are all sorts of ways that we we can use money to comfort ourselves you we buy things to to feel better we buy things to show people how well we're doing there's no good reason to buy you know a Maserati really over a BMW it's it is a signal to the world um and we soothe ourselves with it as well so understanding your own relationship with money is a real key piece of work that you can do in yourself so that you are not stumbling into a reaction, a decision, a behavior, which arises out of unexamined stories that you're telling yourself about, you know, maybe you have a vulnerability around success, and you've worked so hard to be where you are, and you want the world to know how well you're doing very normal and natural type thing to do yeah what might you then be willing to overlook in order to maintain that success it's things like that yeah absolutely

9:13Pete Matthew: understood it's i feel like self-awareness is hard though right i feel like it's easier as we get older you know i'm in 50s now and i feel like i'm more self-aware than that's ever been is there is there a kind of trick to it or is there a way more that we can particularly younger folks in the financial services world is there anything we can sort of suggest to make this kind of self-awareness in this process of understanding our own relationships and money easier the first is to understand the waters that you're swimming in and that it's not just about self-awareness it's about situational awareness this is a domain that calls forth success strivings.

9:58There are certain ways in which you must look the part, and some firms call for that more than others, for sure. And some clients, some clientele or some client base calls for that more than others. One of the reasons that it's important to understand your own money history and your own relationship with money is because certain kinds of misconduct are actually triggered by certain kinds of emotions around money financial envy for example um financial need getting into financial hardship getting into indebtedness that is the number one predictor of whether you'll become embroiled in workplace embezzlement.

10:46Wow.

10:46Pete Matthew: Makes sense, doesn't it? It totally makes sense. It totally makes sense. And to realize that that happens across the entire income spectrum. It's not right. Right. Like you can get into financial trouble no matter how much money you're earning. So this willingness to look at how does money flow in and out of your life? How are you making the spending and saving and investing decisions you're earning? Who are you associating with? And who can you talk to about this stuff? It's not just a private decision. It's profoundly social. Yeah. Love that. Another reason to mentor younger, obviously my world is financial advice particularly, but to mentor younger advisors and to sort of tease this stuff out of them rather than just kind of let them sink or swim.

11:40Pete Matthew: We are obviously in a regulated world. Finance is, you know, regulated as well it should be. And so, you know, I just think the regulator's got a thankless task, right? You know, they can never do enough for consumers. And then those of us on the sort of professional side complain about how they get in the way all the time. So I was really interested to read that some folks on your side of the pond, Moira, are calling into question the future of FINRA, which I think is the main regulator in the US. complaining that it's been too strict i was like you're not shocked when i read that i mean is it actually possible for a regulator to be kind of too strict when the public's money is involved you know and and i wonder philipa press you can speak to this afterwards whether you see similar sort of calls for the fca to chill out a little bit more is that actually happening over there It happens in this very predictable, cyclical ways.

12:36Oh, really? There's some kind of scandal that happens. Calls come forth for heads to roll. And one of the ways that the government responds is for regulations to become tighter. And then there's a part of the economic cycle where people feel too constrained by that. And the calls go forth for, you know, to just release the hounds on all kinds of economic forces so that there isn't the same degree of oversight. So it goes up and it goes down. And it's usually in response to scandal or to some unfortunate lack of oversight. And so we just, I mean, you know, enough said about what's happening in the States in terms of the government fondness for oversight right now.

13:35So who knows what will happen to some of the institutions that once did provide that oversight.

13:46Pete Matthew: More putting it like that, you can get a sense of that is also happening here in the UK. you know our regulator seems to work on this cyclical basis as well doesn't it

13:56Philippa Hann: yeah absolutely I mean the 20 years that I was litigating you could see that um that coming in you would have scandal and then tightening of regulation and then a desire for growth and a relaxation in response to people calling for it and then you would have a whole bunch of scandals again so I mean it was great for me when I was a lawyer because I would see that happening and I mean, slightly frustrating, of course, but absolutely just see that cycle again and again.

14:24Pete Matthew: I'm not sure there's an answer to that. I feel like it's sort of human nature built into the regulatory system there. And it's just always going to be the way. You call in the book for what you call the remoralizing of finance. So can you talk to me about what you mean by that and why there is a kind of moral angle to money and economics at all? I feel like some people just say, well, it's just a thing. But I agree with you, by the way. Can you speak to that, Philippa Fossey?

14:54Philippa Hann: Yes, absolutely. Okay, so if you walk out onto the street and you ask the average person, what is the point of business? What do you think they would say the point of business is, Pete?

15:07Pete Matthew: Well, most of them would say to make money. Exactly. For them and their shareholders, if it's a big one.

15:12Philippa Hann: Precisely. I fundamentally disagree with that. You know, society permits businesses to exist. So businesses are afforded by society through the state a limited liability. That doesn't happen for individuals. It happens for businesses. Businesses are afforded the ability to enforce contracts. That, again, is done through the state, therefore, on behalf of society. animals can't enforce contracts businesses don't exist it's just a made-up human thing and yet we provide it with a um a corporate personality um businesses benefit from uh educated workforce businesses aren't going and teaching nine time tables to eight-year-olds and yet we all benefit from a state educated uh workforce and businesses function benefit from a functioning market In return, businesses provide livelihoods.

16:16Philippa Hann: They provide status, opportunity, capital. Businesses solve problems for people. They provide services and products that people rely on. And so I liken the need for profits or the desire for profits. Really, you know, it is an essential part of being a business, the same as breathing is an essential part of being human. But breathing isn't the point of humanity. And therefore, profits is not the point of a business, whilst it is necessary. I think the point of business is to serve society. And I think it always was. Oh, preach.

17:00Pete Matthew: I'm so with you on this. I love to hear it said so clearly. That's fantastic. Maura, I'm assuming you agree with that. You know, I just I knew I'd found my person. Yeah, I get it. When she didn't. Yeah. But she didn't run screaming when I wrote that section about the need for. Boy, I'm getting feedback now. Oh, I'm sorry. oh yeah um we talk about the fact that business and beings and so there is a moral there is a moral component to it yeah thank you so yeah we're having a little bit of technical issues but hopefully we'll we'll sort of power through um you guys put together this kind of you call it an unofficial taxonomy of offenders, right?

17:55Pete Matthew: And you kind of give names to some sort of overall personalities of people who might be at risk of committing sort of ethics breaches in finance. There's quite a few of them. Obviously, I don't want to spoil the book, but there was a couple of ones. In fact, Philip, I just want to do one of them. Something called The Loyal Minion made me smile. Shades of despicable me.

18:17Philippa Hann: Yes, we've all come across The Loyal Minion. They are the people who take great pride in making sure that the people that they work with, things are done, things are completed. You know, they will carry out their work with an enormous amount of pride. And they can usually be persuaded to overlook things either for financial or actually, probably more importantly, emotional benefits. from the person who is asking them to do the thing so they are the people who will do anything for the people that they're working with um rather than applying their own ethical uh framework to to the work that they're doing so they are i think we've all come across people like that yeah i agree and it's particularly when you're younger right and you sort of fairly

19:16Pete Matthew: junior position that's i guess is is even more likely but not necessarily uh just that the case um i just i think when i was thinking of questions to ask you guys this is the one that i kind of um thought long and hard about so i'm really interested to know what you would say to this because you guys interviewed a body of people for the book and one of the questions you asked was what keeps you good? Great question. And I was pleased to read that one of the answers was a healthy dose of humility. I'm always banging on about humility, self-awareness, you know, awareness of your own failings in a healthy way.

19:53Pete Matthew: It's so important. But it strikes me that this is not the norm for our profession, right, for the finance world. And I wonder, and I have to ask you, is the fact that the finance world, at least from my perspective in financial planning, is the fact that it skews male anything to do with that you know are there any other reasons that humility is lacking in finance maura do you want to take that one first i'm not sure how much gender has to do with it i i think the fact that most of us have never had to really consider the need to steal to feed our families okay thank you right that that we have been in places where we have had access to vital resources.

20:45We have been born into families where there has been enough of the basics, including love. People talk to us about having been raised by parents who taught them the difference between right and wrong, who disciplined them appropriately, not overly harshly, that they weren't conversely raised with moral neglect. Sure. So there was an awareness that their whole upbringing contributed to a degree of moral uprightness and an ability to resist temptation. And they were aware that some of the people, the regulators were aware that some of the people who came before them had not been given those advantages, not the economic ones, not the parenting ones, not even the employment ones.

21:41that some of them, some of the people who came before them had the misfortune of becoming the loyal minion very early in their career. They, you know, it was like the employment version of a lothario who had, who had brought them under their wings and had them do things that they really didn't understand were unseemly or illegal. So that was a big part of what they all said. So many people, how many, we lost count, Philippa, but how many people said there but for the grace of God? Yeah. Yeah.

22:20Pete Matthew: Philippa?

22:21Philippa Hann: It was really interesting talking to the people that I spoke to because often, you know, there were a surprising amount of people who'd worked with the likes of, you know, people who got themselves into trouble and they later look back and said, oh, my goodness, you know, that really could have happened to me. And, you know, for me, there was a real thing around what we can do to protect ourselves in advance of any of this happening. So part of the reason why some of this stuff happens is because of that element of feeling uncomfortable. You know, in the moment when we're having to react to what's happening around us, and it might be that we have to say no to somebody and we are a bit of a people pleaser.

23:11Philippa Hann: I mean, I'm a terrible recovering people pleaser. And so the thought of having to say no to people makes me very uncomfortable in the moment. So having a little bit of moral humility, which makes me understand that I have this vulnerability, or, you know, no one likes to admit that they've made a mistake. We'd all much rather get it right all 100 % of the time. But having that moral humility to say, hang on, I made a mistake, can you help me, feels entirely different to denying it or trying to cover it up or, you know, that kind of thing. So that ability to soothe yourself by saying I'm not perfect and that's okay is really important in this striving to build an ethical life around you that feels okay.

24:08Yeah. Love that.

24:12Pete Matthew: you guys quote uh mia statman i'm not sure if that's how you say it uh who's a behavioral economy economist who urges financial professionals to consider not the sort of rational investor that we're we're kind of taught to think about but rather what he calls the normal investor and that person hopes to derive philippa you mentioned these things uh sort of one or more of three distinct benefits from any purchase the sort of stuff we buy so either utility what does this thing do for me what does this thing say about me expression and emotion how does this thing make me feel that's the stuff we kind of buy like you're saying you know the reason you might buy a maserati over a bmw or a ford or whatever i i figure we can identify that but in the book you actually go on to suggest that our investment choices also express our identities so i got to ask you for some examples of that because that was a an interesting sort of uh concept to me maura do you want to go first well some of us like to make investments in certain sectors that we believe are more ethical than others or avoid investments in companies that we believe are abhorrent for example so that might that that has an expressive uh component to it um some of us might also derive an emotional benefit from that.

25:41One of the things that we, the reason that we belabored the point perhaps in the book was some of us want to invest in things that we feel or have been led to believe might give us exclusive access to things that Only some people are allowed to invest in this particular thing. And when that message starts getting unrolled to you, know that you are, again, on sort of dangerous ground. Because often that is associated with a level of complexity and obfuscation that may be hiding some truly unsavory things.

26:26Pete Matthew: Yeah, for sure. So, Philippa, anything to add to that?

26:30Philippa Hann: Yeah, and it makes me think of the work that I did. To give you a specific example, around Ponzi schemes.

26:38Pete Matthew: Okay.

26:40Philippa Hann: And, you know, when I was a lawyer, there was a particular Ponzi scheme where they were offering a, you know, it was that exclusive club. It was the person who talked about it in the pub, or actually there was a hairdressers. and hairdresser would say oh there's this amazing thing that you can get involved in people are paying off their credit cards they're buying cars they're paying off their mortgages oh you should totally do it and that wasn't about you know proper investment due diligence that was about excitement that was about the emotional benefit of it and and and that applies to it can apply to advisors as well um if they are if they've got access to selling to their clients something which feels very exclusive something which feels very exciting something which um appears to solve a problem for their clients that nobody else is solving for for other clients and so there is absolutely an emotional um element to investing both the client and the advisor when it comes to excitement.

27:51Philippa Hann: And on that emotional point, the point I want to make there is we feel before we think. And so one of the calls in the book is for us to start noticing our emotions rather than ignoring our emotions. Emotions aren't good or bad, They are just telling us something. So if you are feeling excited about something, maybe just pause for a moment and name that and go, I'm really excited about this. Why am I so excited about this? What is it about this? Or maybe I'm really worried about why am I really worried? Maybe I'm really angry or I'm embarrassed, I'm ashamed, whatever it is. Why am I feeling like that?

28:36Philippa Hann: We are not taught to do that as professionals, quite the opposite. We are taught to ignore our emotions and our call is the people to start noticing their emotions because their emotions are telling them something definitely so so important um god i could dig into that but

28:57Pete Matthew: i'm going to just briefly move on because i think well that one will land and i think people need to take that one very seriously and the book obviously uh it goes much deeper into that And, Philippa, most advisors, I think, have a, you know, we have a grudging acceptance of compliance oversight. We know it's a necessary thing. All right. We all know the jokes about compliance being the sort of business prevention department. Of course, that's all nonsense. But many advisors will see it as a sort of necessary evil. But you have a brilliant line in the book which says scrutiny done well is an act of stewardship.

29:31Pete Matthew: I love that word. Do you want to expand on that? What does scrutiny done well look like, Philippa, first?

29:39Philippa Hann: Okay, that might look like audits. It might look like monitoring. It might look like regular meetings. It almost certainly looks like data. And the reason why we say it is an act of stewardship is because done well, it keeps people safe. it keeps people safe and it provides a message to people that the things that we talk about as important we actually in fact regard as important so at any point in uh their career your people are asking two questions at any one time one what does good look like around here and two can I trust what you say? So if good looks like a tick box exercise, or if something goes wrong and it's never picked up, or somebody behaves badly, and that conversation never happens, if somebody's not following the processes and they're never corrected, then what good looks good around here is not doing the right thing necessarily.

30:53Philippa Hann: And if you are not practicing what you preach if you are not having those conversations then i can't trust what you say and so it's really really important for the people in the firm to trust the senior leadership team to have that leader follower values congruence do you really care about this stuff because if you really cared about this stuff you would do something when it doesn't happen so that's i think why that that phrase you know stewardship is is so important in that question love that uh i of course i agree

31:34Pete Matthew: and as a leader of people myself but yeah i know it starts with me and it's how we react when things go wrong how we make sure they don't go wrong in the future and how we kind of provide an environment to make sure that things don't go wrong hopefully that's obviously the starting point um laura anything to add to that? You know, Pete, we wrote this book for two broad groups of people, and one of them was for people who are just entering the profession. And they need to be stewarded themselves. They often don't understand that their firm cannot protect them, that the defense I was told to do it is not in fact a defense.

32:26And so if your firm is saying, this is how to do things, and oops, you didn't do that quite well enough here, this is how it's done. Understand that you are being protected by that act. And this is a good thing. If you have a firm that's not providing you with oversight, you need to gravitate to a better place to a friend that does to a friend that keeps you safe

32:51Pete Matthew: i had a conversation with a relatively new advisor i'm sure like like you i get lots of people asking to pick my brain since the relative new advisor who had been signed off for five months and had built a cash flow for a client and it's one of the more complex cases that he'd done to that point and he couldn't get anybody in the firm to check his cash flow for him decent sized firm nobody would give him the time to check entry you know check his findings and sort of outputs and so he ended up going to the cash flow software company and asking the tech team there to check his inputs and I said exactly the same thing I said you need to get out there man because you there is no protection for you there's no nurturing there's no mentoring and you are exposed there it's an unhealthy environment but it seems to me it's still far too much the norm well i'm busy you know everybody's busy i'm left to sink or swim i'm amazed that that was possible because of the risk it puts on on the firm if nothing else you know as an employed advisor but but anyway ladies what do you what do you want this book to do uh mori i'll come to you first you know you mentioned obviously younger advisors as well but um you know this is obviously a labor of love There's an incredible amount of work gone into it.

34:04Pete Matthew: That's evident from it. This is a brilliant piece of work. What are you hoping is the output from it, the outcome from it? Maura first. We're hoping it will make ethics fun. Ethics. I love that. You know, that people will start saying, hey, let's talk about this in a different way, that it won't be this dry, dusty thing that, as Philippa says, is a tick box exercise. We start the book with why does standard ethics training just stink so much? It really does. Oh, my goodness. I hate ethics training myself, because it just it never touches you at the level where in real life, you are just in knots.

34:59It just never seems to deal with those circumstances. So we wanted to write a book that did not start with Aristotle and go through all of the major theories. We wanted it to be rooted in real life dilemmas with people who sometimes got it right and sometimes stumbled and talk about what to do both preventatively and in reaction to those stumbles. so we hope it will just create some great discussions and help to lead to the next best transformation of ethics training love that philippa

35:41Philippa Hann: yeah i think having been in a you know a similar profession and felt a lot of these pressures myself and you know in part um I wanted to answer for myself am I at risk how do I feel better about my day-to-day working life and so I think what I want for the book to do is provide relief to people who have a lot of noise happening in their heads I don't know how to deal with this where do I go with that I feel uncomfortable there's all this discomfort that I don't know what to do with and there's all this stuff so i wanted to give people some relief i wanted to give people a place to go and and we really wanted to give people the tools to do the work on themselves so that they can experience that sense of peace and and self-compassion and and moral humility and say it's okay to say i don't know the answer can you help me and to provide, you know, for the managers in finance, again, a toolkit to create an environment where those young people and they themselves can make making the right decision easier than making the wrong decision.

37:02Philippa Hann: And the point to make or to labour there, I think, is that at the end of the day, it feels really good to do good things and it feels really bad to do bad things. And we really wanted to help people feel good.

37:21Pete Matthew: Love that. It comes across that, which I think is brilliant. So what's next? I feel like there's some, like a training that needs to come off the back of this, really, a sort of practical application that may not be in hand. But what's next for you both? Philippa first.

37:35Philippa Hann: Yes. So we have our new website, which is Fortline's Finance. dot com where people can go and visit and yes we will have uh training available for people uh we're doing a lot of public speaking at the moment trying to spread the message and give people the opportunity to you know take some of some of this uh work that we've done so they can take it back into their own businesses they can take it back into their own lives um and i think there's probably some you know a paradigm norton of course i'm implementing all of this stuff and And it's so interesting to see how it's working. And I can promise you that all of this stuff just happens to be really good for business.

38:22Pete Matthew: Funny that, isn't it? Moira, what's next for you? A really nice holiday to record. Yes, we do hope to help people start implementing this, to do the workshops that bring this home to individual firms so that they can develop the systems and processes that will make the right thing to do easier and easier and easier and transform firm cultures. Love that. Well, Moira, Philippa, thank you so much for joining me. I'm sorry we've had some tech issues, but I'm super excited about this book. I absolutely adored it. I will definitely be revisiting it regularly as I seek to grow my own firm. So thank you so much for writing it and thank you for joining me today.

39:18Philippa Hann: Thank you.

39:20Pete Matthew: okay hope you enjoyed that i'm hoping that it was listened to a ball despite the technical issues because uh we covered some good ground there um definitely buy the book the fault lines of finance if you're in the finance profession at all in any capacity and particularly if you're a younger entrant if you're in your 20s and 30s um because chances are you're in a more junior position and you're even more at risk of some of these things than say I am running a company that might sound disingenuous but I believe it to be the case so definitely buy the book um if you get chance to hear Moira and Philippa speak on this subject just snap that up because honestly it will be probably a career defining moment for for anybody watching that certainly this has been a book that I've really enjoyed I devoured it actually made loads of notes as I went through which meant I had some questions to ask them.

40:17Pete Matthew: And I just think it's really, really, really important book. So thank you, Tamora and Philippa, for joining me. Thank you for listening. Next week, we're back to Q &A with my main man, Roger Weeks. But that's it for this week. Links, and particularly, I believe it's faultlinesoffinance.com. But the link, the correct link, just in case I've got that wrong, will be at the show notes for this episode, meaningfulmoney.tv slash session640. meaningfulmoney.tv slash session640. Hope you enjoyed my conversation with Maura and Philippa. Thank you so much for listening and watching. I'll see you next time.