Too Expensive? Whole of Life Insurance explored

0:00Pete Matthew: Hi, folks, and welcome back to Meaningful Money. This is session number 638. Just me again. This was meant to be a Q &A episode, but Roger is a little bit poorly, a little bit under the weather, so I'm sure you'll join me in wishing him well. We're scheduled to record in another week now. So we'll be back to Q &As next week. So bringing forward a conversation with my friend Justin Harper, who has joined us fairly recently, actually only four or five months ago. And he is chief marketing officer at LifeSearch. You know, I have a great relationship with LifeSearch. We've worked with them for a long time.

0:32Pete Matthew: Lots of meaningful money audience members have got in touch with LifeSearch to help them arrange their life insurance, income protection, all that good stuff. But today specifically, we're talking about whole of life insurance and why I think it's underused. get the lowdown on why it might be a really smart idea. Spoiler alert, it's going to become for more people, many more people, a really smart idea. So we'll get into that. Now, before we get into it, right at the end, after we'd stopped, we'd pressed stop on the recording, Justin said, oh, I forgot to name check because Justin knows his stuff, but he's a marketing guy, right?

1:08Pete Matthew: And when I sent him the questions in advance, he definitely got some help. He was first to admit that but then he forgot to name check them so thank you to some of the teams at zurich and royal london as well as some of the expert advisors at life search who definitely equipped justin for this conversation and as i'm sure you'll agree uh it was totally worth it because he's very rapid fire really snappy but we cover a lot of ground so remember links as always are at the show notes meaningfulmoney.tv slash session 638 here's my conversation with justin harper of LifeSearch. I'm delighted to welcome back in fairly rapid succession actually for the second time Justin Harper.

1:47Pete Matthew: Justin how you doing bud? Very good thank you good to be back. Summer's behind us but great to be here. I know it's flown by hasn't it actually. So just remind folks who you are please and what you do. So my name is Justin Harper I'm Chief Marketing Officer at LifeSearch one of the UK's most favourite leading protection specialist brokers I have to get that in and we look after hundreds of thousands of people to make sure that they've sort their lives out properly should anything happen in their lives financially we're there to make sure they've got the solutions and things in place to make sure they're put right so yeah fantastic thank you for that so we're going to talk today about whole of life insurance you know i've been chatting with yourself and uh and in uh my main contact uh life search and we're just thinking right how can we, you know, explain stuff to people in a way that makes sense, that might make them think about taking action and just assess where they're at.

2:40Pete Matthew: And one of the things that we kind of came up with is that whole of life insurance, it feels like it used to be a really big deal. It used to be talked about a lot. And that's less the case now. That might just be my kind of experience. It's less the case now, but also it is to my mind quite quickly dismissed, particularly by you know folks who might be listening to this who are generally you know financially secure they're heading towards retirement or they are retired and it tends to get sort of dismissed I think so I'm quite keen to dig in a bit because I think it's actually an extremely valuable let's do that let's dispel some myths perhaps exactly so let's let's start the top what is whole of life how does it work and how does it differ from the sort of insurance that most people understand which is term insurance okay actually i'll start with but whole of life is a life insurance policy clues in the title and also it will pay out whenever you die so it's not restricted in the same way as term is which most people are familiar with term insurance which will pay out if you die within a certain specified number of years with whole of life same concept it'll pay out if you die but it's more a matter of when you die because we we all know we're going to die.

3:54So if you've provided and kept up your premiums throughout the term of the policy, then it will pay out. It's guaranteed.

4:01Pete Matthew: Perfect. Yeah, it'll pay out when you die, not if. Exactly right. But given that everybody does die, which is where I hate to admit it, I think sometimes, does that not make it? Bear in mind, the premise of insurance, for the most part, is that the premiums of many pay for the claims of the few. Given that everybody dies is it not just going to be phenomenally expensive um well expensive it's more expensive than term insurance let's say because you've got that guaranteed payout provided you pay the the premiums so back to the it's all a matter of when you die um costs are more than term insurance for sure i've got a few numbers i can share later which might add some color to that and i think what's important is that whole of life is perhaps particularly nowadays and more recently is being used for a different purpose to traditional protection if you're looking at term assurance typically that's great if you've got a family you've got a mortgage you're increasing your assets increasing your wealth and you want to protect that family situation should something happen whereas whole of life has a different role to play it's more about some of that those responsibilities may have moved away and dwindled it's more about you've got some wealth you've got your estate you've got your savings investments your pension now we'll come on to that no doubt it's about preserving that wealth and then in making sure you can pass it on and that's where whole of life has a has a critical role to play so it's more likely sort of later life i mean you can take it out whenever of course and i guess the earlier you take it out the cheaper it is on monthly basis um but you'll be paying it for longer so it's kind of sort of swings around about but so specifically then what do most people use whole of life insurance that that's changed a little we've been uh doing a bit of homework on this over the last uh week or so is that uh it is still a relatively uncommon product that's your point is that it may have been a big thing back in the day whenever that day was it's definitely been quiet for the last 10-15 years or so and there's a number of reasons for that around the the insurers if you're offering whole of life insurance as you can guess you're guaranteed to make a payout you're kind of making an assumption that not everybody will continue their policies right to the end but you have to set aside a shed load of capital as an insurer to make sure that if those claims do happen then you're in a position to pay them out and that caused a lot of capital strain among some of the insurers over the last 10-15 years.

6:33Life has changed a little, I won't go into the mechanics behind that, mainly because I don't understand them all but life is different nowadays. Premiums today are cheaper than they were five years ago for whole of life and there's some mechanics behind that. One of the things I did find is that actually the volumes, levels of whole of life policy sales have remained pretty much similar. They're only about 27 ,000 or so who sold a year, right? Which isn't, I think that's nothing. Compare that to term insurance, about a million policies are taken out every year. Wow. So relatively small. What we've seen, though, over the last two or three years particularly, and we'll come on to the reasons why, is that the purpose and use of those has changed.

7:13I'd say in more recent times, before the last three or four years, perhaps they were just a simple way of either paying for a funeral, a legacy, typically a lower sum assured or cover amount. So you've got something you can pass on guarantee to your two dependents if they need it as a kind of like a nest egg or security fund what's definitely changing now as we've seen particularly over the last three years is the level of cover for policies has increased significantly and that's all around driving and supporting and planning for inheritance tax and that's where we're seeing it's being used more and

7:48Pete Matthew: more for a whole host of different reasons yeah that's the sort of obvious kind of use cases now I think, because, I mean, for some cases, you can kind of self-insure, but you can't self-insure against a tax on your assets, can you? No, really not. Old assets, you're going to get taxed on them. And if you know what your liability is, or you think you know what your liability is going to be, if you've got enough to self-insure, you've got enough funds, then you need to put them somewhere and also make sure they're accessible for your dependents when that time comes. and there are also other planning routes as well but whole of life has a really important part to play in inheritance tax i think it's not the solution but it should be part of the solution for some are there any kind of scenarios like you say whole of life lends itself to inheritance tax planning making money available to executors to pay the inheritance tax so that the estate can be distributed but are there any sort of scenarios where somebody might come to you and saying i think i need whole of life insurance but where you might direct them away from that into an alternative uh if we're looking at inheritance tax planning particularly then yeah there may be alternatives i mean the great thing with whole of life i've become a bit of a whole of life advocate nut over the last week or two uh just realizing just just how good it is um because it's got a role to play but there are alternatives because whole of life is expensive I'll just quote a few Yeah, do that I'll give you a few, a case scenario So if you've got a couple Age 60, say, and they're looking to protect An inheritance tax Liability of a million pounds Okay, big old policy Yeah, that's a big old chunky inheritance tax Liability to pass on For their dependents to pay But the cost of Protecting against that, providing a Whole of life policy in a trust That can be used to pay off that liability is in the region of about£1 ,100 to£1 ,200 a month.

9:50Pete Matthew: Okay. Or a million pounds worth of cover, yeah? That sounds immediately like a massive chunk. Yeah, but I mean, a million quid liability divided by, say, should we call it, say,£14 ,000 a year? Yeah, yeah. How long does it take to save? 71 years. Yeah. so it sounds like a lot doesn't it but and if you are in a position where you've got a million quid life inheritance liability you've got the assets which should be comfortably able to produce income to cover a whole life so it's relative expense isn't it it's you know you've got to keep it in perspective yeah and that's one of the things that you need to play well this is what a good advisor will help plan is that you might think oh well i'll be paying whole of life premiums well into my 80s and 90s what about income i'll be on a pension but then also you've got your other assets and pension planning alongside that where you can use those as you say to fund the premiums and the great thing with whole of life as it's becoming my whole of life is you can literally play one premium and then tomorrow your family get a million pounds if you were to try and save that 1200 odd every month and put it in a bank account not that you would but if you did it probably take you 30 or 40 years to get to that million pounds so exactly in some ways i wouldn't say it's an investment policy but in a way it is a bit of a savings vehicle guarantee premiums in guarantee payout right so yeah exactly right and probably a payout far in excess of the premiums you've put in.

11:24Pete Matthew: That's a good segue because back in the day, whole of life insurance and investment were kind of inseparably linked. And I've always had a kind of deep aversion to stuff getting mixed together. So I mean, back in my day when I was doing my exams, whole of life insurance very often had an investment element. And the purpose of that was to keep premiums low. It's like we'll hive off part of your insurance premium, invest in it, and hopefully it'll do well enough to cover some of the costs of the insurance and thereby keep your premiums down. But people have had some bad experiences with that and also things like reviews, like you get to the point where you get to age 65 and now we're going to review the premium every five years and it's going to skyrocket.

12:13Pete Matthew: So is that still the case today or is it a simpler thing? It's a little simpler now. And I think a lot of people got burnt from some of the challenges of investment-linked whole-of-life. Typically today, investment, if you wanted to buy an investment-linked whole-of-life, you couldn't find one. Today, most are guaranteed premiums. There still are reviewable options out there, and there may be good reasons for those if the circumstances are right. But with the reviewable premiums, you may pay lower, but you've got that degree of uncertainty later down the line in terms of how much will it be. So you need to balance your liability and your policy at the same time.

12:51But today, most policies are taken out on a guaranteed premium basis. So you know we're going to pay month in, month out.

12:59Pete Matthew: What factors are involved in calculating the premiums? Is it just sort of, I guess, the usual stuff, health and age? Yeah. Can they still take gender into account or not? Not anymore. So post the gender directive back in the day, all prices are the same, male or female so it is age is a big factor amount obviously and health so the actual product itself hasn't really changed over the last 20 years it is pretty simple if you're looking at your standard whole of life you pay money in, you get a payout at the end there's a few bells and whistles and options around the site but essentially that's it underwriting is improved over the recent years of course making more advanced quicker decisions and more flexible decisions around people's health but essentially it's the same you mentioned that it's still possible to get policies that where the premiums are reviewable and there may be circumstances where that might make sense you care to venture one or two well here we go let's try this one so um yes you can and i'm not sure how many viewable options there are out there now so only a small number i think five insurers actually offer all of life nowadays Wow, that's all.

14:12Pete Matthew: Yeah, so it used to be. Again, back to the challenges I mentioned earlier with some of the insurers, some of them moved completely away and out of whole of life. Some of them are more active now, for sure, given some of the changes that are happening around pensions and the increased focus on inheritance tax. But where you might use Reviewable, and typically how it works is you start off with a lower premium. there's a review period which happens after 10 years typically and then every five years thereafter and the great thing the wonders of illustrations nowadays is that your insurer will be obliged to give you an indication of what those premiums might be in the future they are an indication everything's dependent on what happens at the time and what's happened at the recent period in terms of their mortality and rates and everything else that goes on so it's not based on you individually it's based on their overall book and experience um but reviewable may have a a role because you know when its premiums are reviewed they're not going to go down they're going to go up yeah you manage that to a degree by if you're actively gifting would be a good example so you're starting you're making steps to reduce your the value of your state then yeah if have a reviewable whole of life alongside that then you can offset some of those increases in premiums by reducing the amount of cover i suppose yeah sure and that might be valid yeah if you've made significant gifts and reduced the value of your state that might actually you know your your uh iht liability might not be a million quid anymore it might be 800 grand or whatever in which case yeah you can then start to look to manage and offset your amount of cover with your premiums but there's a high degree of uncertainty that's of course yeah yeah um it used to be that you could take out sort of whole of life policies and the premiums would kind of stop they used to call it sort of making them paid up so they were still live still fully yeah would pay out when the time came um but i i'm wondering whether this is sort of old industrial branch type stuff i did surely does that stuff still happen uh i i don't think so there used to be premium cessation ages didn't What a lovely term.

16:23Yeah, typically around 85 or 90. I think with most guaranteed insurance, whole-of-life insurance policies now, you are paying for the duration of the term. It doesn't have that kind of paid-up value anymore.

16:34Pete Matthew: I feel like that's a bit of a carryover from when making it to 90 was pretty rare. Yeah, yeah. You know, with the, obviously, proven in medical care and greater longevity and stuff, it sounds like not a great deal for the insurers these days. And there's not normally any kind of surrender value, is there? No, not anymore. No cash in value or surrender value anymore. It is pure, pure insurance. Back to your point about investment related. There's no surrender cash in value nowadays. I suppose it's possible, you know, if I lived a very long time, that I could end up paying more in premiums than would be paid out.

17:14Pete Matthew: People raise that as a reason not to do it. but is that really something to worry about or is that just that's kind of a look at the door i think that that may apply more to the likes of a different type of hold of life which is the guaranteed non-underwritten hold of life which typically they appear on tv you know where where actually you're paying more in premium for the actual amount of cover because you're not answering any questions so the insurers make you know some assumptions and build that in In those cases, you're more likely to potentially pay more in than you get out. But if you're looking at underwritten whole-of-life plans, which over a longer term typically offer higher amounts, as I said, take that example, it'll take you, what, 36 years from outset to actually start to be paying more.

18:04And you've got that peace of mind in the interim that you've still got that million pounds available to your dependents. so yeah rare I think or not so common anymore no sure fair enough I was gonna ask you about

18:16Pete Matthew: over 50s plants because they are funny it's like you know no questions only get a free pen yeah well back in those days it was I remember there was parking his pen wasn't there and then oh yeah she had a pen nowadays I mean they they are generally I think that they'll be coming back there's some changes in regulation that I think will offer greater opportunity for for over 50s plans to come back in but um i think they are better for the older clients not as i say being well past 50 um i think now or very soon an over 50s type plan might be relevant but not for your typical 50 year old nowadays um yeah so but the offers and gifts are much higher than nowadays a bit more of a pen these days yeah yeah not so easily bought yeah good old pen and there was a kettle or whatever it was a bit like generation game but um yeah but they have a role they do have a wrong to play but misunderstood i think in many reasons sure i mean i think you know if it's about you know for like a low income low asset value family if it's a really easy way of providing some money for a good good funeral i'd almost rather that than a funeral plan not a massive financial plan i think they're not a financially great uh proposition so you know like 10 20 quid a month or whatever to provide the money to pay for a decent funeral is probably a better option Although that said, if you are 50 to 60, I'd say, and in reasonably good health, or even not in that good health, actually, go the under-earned route because you're going to get way more than you do under taxes.

19:45Pete Matthew: Way more for your money. Yeah, interesting. Okay. So we talked about the sort of primary use case for Hall of Life, particularly for folks in the sort of target audience of meaningful money, being inheritance tax money. So we obviously need to start with some kind of assessment of the liability, which is fairly simple maths. Most of us could do that. The problem, such as it is, is that IST liabilities can change. Now, we've kind of touched on that in that, you know, if you're proactively making gifts and reducing your estate, then that's fine. But of course, many people's estates are going to take a significant jump next April when pensions come in.

20:26Pete Matthew: so how do we kind of review this stuff and sort of keep an eye on it and is there kind of an obvious kind of process for that or any recommendations that we might yeah i think definitely worth a review uh and we're no doubt you might be in a similar position with uh jackson's is that you you may be receiving customers coming to you saying i'm a little bit worried about all i've heard about the pension changes oh yeah maybe and we saw some of that off the back of you remember when they did the whole announcement about farms and clerks and getting on his rightfully on his high horse about that, we had a number of agricultural clients come to us who typically never would come to us to talk about these sorts of things.

21:07And I think we may come on further to pensions, but that's definitely an opportunity. Well, it's not an opportunity, but such a significant change is that a whole host of people who would not have fallen into inheritance tax liability were even worried about it very quickly and suddenly overnight be potentially trapped by inheritance tax. But your point was more about actively reviewing. I think there is, with any plan, as I said, the protection piece is part of the plan that if you know you've got a liability or you've got a liability that you need to pay off and you don't have the means of paying that off, then the whole of LIG plan has a role to play.

21:50But it should be considered alongside other measures you might be taking, gifting or putting other things in trust. So you're constantly, not constantly, but regularly reviewing how that overall plan's performing. So I would say, and most financial advisors like yourselves will conduct an annual review of their customers, and then you should definitely take a closer look at estate planning over i'd say at least every two

22:14Pete Matthew: to three years things change i agree definitely i agree it's part of a sort of a rolling two-year review process for us with clients you know because you you don't want to deal with necessarily everything every year because it would be quite a lot potentially to deal with but so we kind of break the meetings and the subjects across the two-year kind of rolling thing and my view and my sort of preach if you like or meaningful money is always like formally annually is great take a look at everything make sure everything's positioned right make sure the numbers still stack up or whatever and that might trigger an action you know whatever make a gift get in touch with life search whatever um but also sometimes ad hoc because something happens like a rule change um or you know a family change you know new grandchild comes along and suddenly it's like right, okay, I've got somebody else I can give money to now.

23:07Pete Matthew: Maybe I'll address that. So sometimes ad hoc sort of hack-ins are important too. Now, pensions obviously coming into the regime for inheritance tax is a massive deal. I mean, you know, for years now we've been saying, right, spend all your other money, leave your pension fund intact because that's outside your estate, pass it to your kids tax free. After April 27, that's not going to be the case. So let's say somebody, you know, has to this point insured the liability excluding their pension fund. Is there a sort of, you know, with some insurances, mostly term insurances, I guess, there's a sort of like guaranteed insurability option.

23:43Yeah, GIOs, yeah, yeah.

23:45Pete Matthew: Yeah, right. Is there anything like that on Hall of Life? Are we talking full underwriting? Pretty much full underwriting. There are occasionally some GIOs, guaranteed insurability options, but typically they come with some checks and balances. normally you'd have to be accepted in the first place on standard rates and not rated at all which may not be the case if you're a more uh sort of of older age if you've been through life been through the wars of life um and you have to do it within a specific period of a certain event changing so some do i think it's well worthwhile because as i said 30 000 policies sold a year it feels like it's a great opportunity just to revisit the whole plan and then consider where the whole of life or another option might be might be the right route for you sure trusts are obviously really important aren't they because well why are they i'm saying they obviously are let me rather than me say it why don't i pass that to you why people like me bang on about trusts all the time particularly when it comes to inheritance tax planning and protection why is that the case three three main reasons why you'd like why trusts are a good idea one is certainty of paying it out to the right people you want to pay it to.

25:02And you can organise that through a trust. And there's a degree of flexibility in that should life change. Second one is speed, for sure. Is that because it sits outside the estate, it doesn't have to fall into probate. It can be released immediately. And we know, particularly with the forthcoming pension changes, is that if it's coming out of the pension change, you've got six months to sort it out and settle your bill. or then you start paying interest which is bonkers um it is bonkers but uh so that speed certainty in terms of who it goes to and in this instance the important one is it it's designed in a way so it sits outside the estate so um it's not subject to to inheritance tax but it can be used

25:42Pete Matthew: this speed thing i don't think i mean i'm quite certain the powers that be haven't really thought this through but i mean six months is not a long time no to get the numbers together particularly not if there are you know half a dozen pension pots which many people have yeah yeah no i mean it's if anything even more of an argument towards consolidating yeah so i mean just to get right your executives will have to get the figures from all your pension companies do all the calculations you know work out the proportional split as to what fund is paying what and get that paid to the revenue all within six months or interest is going to be paid that's not a long time and sometimes it takes us six months to get information back from yes from a pension provider when we're on behalf of the client get the right your own money back yeah let alone yeah right and talk to others as well and the other factor to bear in mind too is if you have got pension investments and some of those might be in commercial property, for example, it may be really difficult to actually release those funds and convert them into something more liquid within that time.

26:52So it is crazy. As I understand it, I think there's still some further guidance to come out, but they don't seem to have waved on this timeframe at all today.

27:03Pete Matthew: They don't, do they? And it's still the responsibility of the personal reps, I think. Yes, it is. What a huge responsibility that is. Yeah. I know there was sort of talk about should this responsibility not sort of pass to the pension trustees to get the numbers out in time and everything. But I mean, they were never going to accept that. And they've obviously got lobbying clout as well. But it is a huge responsibility, which puts further onus, I think, onto the individual, the couple, to firstly keep very tight records. And, you know, I honestly think one of the best gifts you can give your estate and your beneficiaries is kind of clarity around stuff.

27:38Pete Matthew: where everything is contact details policy numbers you know yes like i said property all the paperwork to go with that um and then obviously amounts and keep those updated regularly life insurance written in trust i mean this is i think probably more than any time the value of having the right amount of cover in trust to pay out quickly to your personal representatives so that they can pay the revenue give them then the breathing space to do all the rest of the work you know it's like do the maths pay the revenue at least they're happy and then we can get on with distribution i think the value is only going to increase i think um i think i think if advisors particularly are not laboring this point going forward then they are negligent and so i think if you're working with an advisor particularly in this instance we're looking at you know as estate planning as well where you know there's or you know there's going to be a liability the clock will start ticking so it's about setting it up properly and you can do the right work now then it makes life shed load easier when the time comes so you know keep good records and consider life insurance because you know even if you have sufficient liquid assets there's still going to be some work to do in realizing that uh whereas it can literally just drop into a pot uh for you ready to pay so yeah for sure is there anything that we've missed just anything that we need to address and get across uh i think there are alternatives to um okay whole of life as well which again uh being being the renewed whole of life advocate i think they potentially have a role to play uh and cost is an issue and particularly if you're looking at newer clients coming towards this particular problem off the back of the pension changes, then this may be something that may work for them because they may not be at that retirement age yet, but it may be coming.

29:38And I know a number of my colleagues are, again, in the right times and right places, using joint life, second death term assurance.

29:47Pete Matthew: Okay. So, and if you're looking, if I take my£1 million example for a couple, 60 years old each, and we looked at an equivalent convertible term, the cost of hold of life was like£1 ,100 or£1 ,200. The convertible term would be£400 or£500, so significantly less. What you're giving up in cost is you're paying in terms of certainty because it's term assurance, so you have to make sure, you have to engineer it so that both of you die before the end of that term. But again, if you're actively gifting and managing your estate, you can reduce that liability over time. And you're pretty sure that you don't necessarily need a sum of money at that point.

30:33Then that's an option.

30:35Pete Matthew: Yeah, it is an option. That could really focus the mind on a gifting regime. Yes. Yeah. You know, obviously you need to bear in mind some new rules. Yeah. And some bits you can switch out and carve out into a, I'm not sure many of your listeners will be familiar with this, but Gift into Vivos, what a classic product name that is. But, you know, that kind of tapered term assurance. And with these joint life, second death term assurance, there are options where you can mix and match and carve bits out. So, again, it's part of an active bit of planning, not one you just put in place and forget about.

31:06Pete Matthew: Yeah, this is quite a sort of in-the-round holistic thinking. You mentioned convertible term assurance. You know, it's not just the roof down, no? Convertible means what? Two types, actually. Convertible may mean that if there's two of you, typically joint life, second death, and the first person dies, first spouse, the other person can convert that policy into a single life policy. And again, lots of checks and balances. You have to be in standard terms and everything else. But you can then extend the term and increase the cover if the liability is approved. Because as you know, between married couples, there's no inheritance tax liability from one spouse to the other.

31:46the liability will hit on the death of the of the of the surviving partner so yeah that's something

31:52Pete Matthew: to bear in mind yeah okay you said two types or did i first one yeah and the other one is is uh this is pretty rare i think there's only one insurer that does this as a minute at the minute where you can convert term assurance at a certain point to whole of life oh wow yeah that's an interesting i mean i'm sure the uplifting premium would be accordingly but so what you know it's That's flexibility. As your circumstances change, so you may take it out at younger age, particularly as more of a family protection, but you don't have to convert it. Family protection, say mid-40s, early 50s, probably still got a mortgage, probably like myself, still got kids hanging around.

32:28So you've got that to pay off. But as you switch out of that part of your life and more towards looking after my legacy and making sure that's passed on, then that conversion option could help.

32:40Pete Matthew: Yeah. Yeah. Bro, I think we covered a lot of ground in only 30 minutes there. Man, that was very succinct. And honestly, I think this is going to be a big deal and a bigger part of more people's lives going forward. So Meaningful Money and Live Search have got a great relationship. We've been working together for quite a long time. I was going to ask you how people get in touch. Nice and simple. You can visit livesearch.com. It's the simple way. We're on the internet. You can find us very simply. Speak to one of our advisors. for telephone based but always available to speak to people and help them with their problems just mention meaningful money when you get in touch absolutely yeah if you do agreement then yeah absolutely yeah yeah it helps keep the lights on at meaningful money it's an affiliate arrangement so you don't pay any more um but life search share the commission with me that's right and it's important we keep both parties in the loop as well as looking after our shared customer for sure meaningfulmoney.tv slash live search will also get you there so Justin as ever man we're going to be doing this a few times over the coming months and years as we sort of be a bit more deliberate about sharing this stuff because it's great to talk to an expert but I'm delighted to have been a bit of a trigger for you becoming a whole of life kind of zealot in the last week and speaking to you I get why yeah yeah brilliant well it's good that means people know about it thank you for joining me man I appreciate it good to see you okay that was great wasn't it i feel like we covered a lot of ground pretty quickly there uh nice and succinct and thank you justin again for joining me roger's back with q a next week but that's it for this week remember show notes are at meaningfulmoney.tv slash session 638 it's hard to say you know 630 episodes ago i decided to put the word session in the pretty link so that it was easy for you to remember but it's always really hard to say meaningfulmoney.tv slash session 638.

34:36Pete Matthew: Everything you need to know is there. Thanks again to Justin. I hope you enjoyed it, folks. Me and Roger will be with you next week. Cheers.