$10bn And Counting

0:01Hello, welcome to the Media Club. I'm your host Matt Deegan. In the club today,$10 billion and counting. Is there any merit to Donald Trump's case against the BBC and can the corporation get it dismissed before the legal costs rack up? Charlotte Tobit, UK editor at Press Gazette, tells us the latest. Also on the show, the Oscars head to YouTube. What does the multi-year deal mean for broadcast television? Journalist and all-round digital maven Alex Hudson makes sense of it for us. All that plus DMG counts its pennies ahead of the telegraph sale, the government debates the BBC's future. And in the Audio Network Media Quiz, we're playing Schedule This.

0:40That's all coming up in this edition of the Media Club. Come on in.

0:47Hello both. Alex and Charlotte are here with me. I love it that you're not wearing Christmas jumpers. We have a very strict rule here in the Media Club about that. It's too hot in here. You're trying to make us think it's summer. It is. It's always warm here at the Media Club. Charlotte, welcome back. you're the journalist that writes stories about journalism but who would you like to induct into the club as your plus one this week so I know the club was kind of originally designed for unsung heroes but I've decided to pick Jeremy Vine by two reasons one we had our British Journalism Awards last week which Jeremy Vine hosted for us very capable league and I just kind of wanted to give him a shout out because compared to a lot of the kind of you know award ceremonies that get someone doing like a corporate gig and they're not very engaged you know I just feel like Jeremy's the absolute like gold standard for actually cares about the journalism that we're celebrating and kind of shouts out ones that he remembers from the year so that was really great but then also in the past week we've had the Joey Barton sentencing relating to kind of harassment of Jeremy and others.

1:58And I was just listening to him on the media show and I know he's talked about it elsewhere. And I just think he's dealt with it like very sensibly, but kind of honestly, he has raised concerns about kind of, you know, when free speech might go too far, but, and kind of warned about social media is kind of becoming really dangerous for a lot of people's minds. But yeah, just those two things were kind of on my mind. So that's why he came into my head. I was very welcome to join. Obviously only on a penny farthing or something like that, arriving at the Club HQ. Alex, who have you got to join us in the club?

2:35I want to try sneaking to both Vantigan, both terrible. So the first is Christmas. It's Christmas. Merry Christmas. My first is podcast co-host Chris Stockel-Walker. Yes. Because he did his journalism unwrapped all over X today. and he has published over 560 pieces of freelance content in a year, which I think is probably impossible. So I think that is incredible. And he does media three to four times a week. He does a podcast. He does infinite journalism. And the man is up at 6 a.m. doing crazy things every day. That's the first one. The second one is equally problematic because I know that he's already a member.

3:07So sorry. But Ben Zand was on today for a program this week. And he was talking about how to reach young people as part of the BBC. and the answer should have been keep ben zand who used to work for the bbc and so his work in trying to change the way that people think about that space and his new human youtube series is doing really great guns and he's talking about the correct sort of content and of course a variety of different things but some of his stuff is really really really interesting uh no he's an interesting guy and it's it's hard to make your name in that space sort of as more of a grown-up YouTube is sort of known for younger people people who are sort of YouTube native but he sort of straddles both kind of mainstream broadcasting the internet as well he seems to have a really good take on that world I think YouTube's grown up now as we're going to talk about later YouTube has the Oscars so I think YouTube has that and it's a serious platform and Ben is trying to make the most of it OK, in a moment the Oscars go digital we'll see you in a sec

4:10Welcome back to the Media Club. The Oscars are going to be YouTube exclusive from 2029, leaving terrestrial television. Alex, why is that? because YouTube wants the global rights. And so you're so used to there being this one country has this one deal, another country has this other deal, and it's about a million different deals for a million different prices. And nobody watches the Oscars. What? Don't tell anybody, but no one watches the Oscars live. But this means that suddenly it will be clipped up, clipped up, clipped up, clipped up. And YouTube is continually trying to solve the problem of how can it make long-form TV that people will watch on YouTube?

4:48So many people are watching YouTube, but then you think about the original content that's created as far as traditional TV. There aren't those examples necessarily, and YouTube is failing in that space. This is another attempt, one of many, many attempts, whether that be live sports or entertainment, all of these things. This is their next stab into that field. I thought it was interesting, the press release, obviously it's quite a few years away, so who knows what the world would be like. And they sort of made reference to YouTube TV subscribers, so people who kind of have their kind of cable version, and then sort of the rest of the world get it on kind of free YouTube.

5:21But it's one of the questions. We just don't know what the world's going to be like for YouTube that far away. And that's the US thing. So if you're a YouTube TV subscriber in the US, and already the US has such a complicated relationship with cable and complicated relationship with Netflix and all of the sort of different streamers and how their TV is still even more important in the American home than it is in perhaps the British or sort of more European homes. So there's that. But it's free to air in all of the other countries from what I can understand, at least now. We don't know what will happen in four years.

5:51And I think that's the exciting bit of, okay, given that the Oscars is long and dull with clippable moments, what is YouTube's game there? Is it that suddenly these clips can't be shown on TikTok? Is it that you're somehow changing the news landscape and you're trying to own the IP around those three or four great moments? Or is it just that YouTube believes that genuinely in four years' time, people will sit down and watch this stuff? Do you think the kind of motion picture association have gone, you know what, broadcast telly, it's not important, or just that YouTube have come with the biggest checkbook?

6:26I think it's another example of the globalization. So if you look at MLS and the way Apple has bought MLS, it's not just a single country deal, it's a global deal. And the Oscars being that global moment, is it still a global moment? It's probably a global moment. It's harder and harder to create a global moment, and they still have one. and it saves them from doing 192 or however many countries different deals on all of these things. Charlotte, do you think it'll help the Oscars go younger? I think like everyone's on YouTube now or, you know, people from every demographic. And I can't remember the exact stat, but like most or many watchers are like older people on a TV in their living room watching YouTube, which, you know, then does make it more like your traditional Oscars viewing.

7:06anyway it's not the same but i mean i can definitely see you know the young people sharing it on youtube shorts and everything like that'd be so easy to clip but um definitely like we actually anything could happen with the platforms in the next three years so um yeah we'll have to see do you think abc are annoyed they've lost it they've lost a big live thing or no like what are you losing from not having the oscars you are losing the those viral clips which will be viral clips anyway and even if they remember the oscars they're not remembering which platform they watched it on particularly if it's free to air and so then all you're doing is you are saying oh i watched the oscars last night on which platform i don't know it was on the telly would it be a big night for advertising though for abc that's a good question but then how to what extent is that still your model in 2029 it's not quite the super bowl is it no it's it is a moment but it doesn't have the ratings that it used to.

8:03I mean, there's kind of bigger concerns in Hollywood with Netflix potentially taking over Warner Brothers Discovery Studios arm about what is a film when we get to 2029. What is a film? Will any of it be shown in cinemas? Do you think cinemas have much to worry about between now and then? None more so than they do already. Cinemas are dying. We know this. Cinemas exist as this community piece. You can now watch a film in as good a quality with as good audio probably if you care about film in your home living room it's that how much do people want to go and spend if tickets are 10 15 20 pounds and 30 pounds as they're getting up to now just so you can order a pizza from your seat is that a special event out or is it just the same thing you could do at home and there's no reason to go out anymore and netflix are buying making that big investment well one of two reasons netflix are either making it as a thing so nothing happens for the next two or three years so it gets ahead in the streaming wars or just so it dominates the ip so it can lower the needs for people to go to cinemas and they can watch films from their living room uh charlotte just to go to the movies so i'm one of the crazy people that just went to watch the new knives out movie in the cinema before it was on netflix so i'm definitely coming at it from from the you know i think there's still going to be a core amount of people that love cinema but will it be the same kind of scale loads of people going every week thing that it used to be?

9:27No, but yeah, I still go a lot. I think there is a potential for sort of a reboot of the movies as an experiential experience and you sort of go, you've got kind of a high-end you know, expensive seats, wine, no children screaming end of things but also you've got an end where actually if you're young, actually the young are the people that are holding up cinema usage because it's something that they can do in public space. If you look at the Minecraft movie and all the kids shouting about Chicken Jockey, that was clearly like a public shared experience. And again, that's the exception that proves the rule.

10:01So I think you're right. And there'll be those independent places that really want to champion this. And you would never hear about this thing unless a cinema said, this is great. And that's a whole separate thing. But ultimately, what's the next step for cinemas? It's experiential. It's the sort of come along, this interactive, immersive thing that no one has got right yet. That VR is still dreadful. So actually... I think we're supposed to be in the metaverse, aren't we? Aren't we just in the metaverse? Maybe we just didn't realise we were transferred in. I still wholeheartedly believe in the metaverse.

10:29The metaverse is just not Zuckerberg's dream. It is what GTA 6 is. It is people farming in Red Dead Redemption 2. It's people putting on Hamlet in Grand Theft Auto. Grand Theft Hamlet is one of the best films out of the last couple of years. It's people engaging in the digital space to create a family or create their friends or create all of these things. The metaverse already exists, just not in a VR headset, Zuckerberg, without a real body sort of thing. And that, when we get that, people are living in those spaces, actually, then we get too nerdy about it. But that's the exciting bit. What we do with that for entertainment is a real next step that no one has got right.

11:01I think a floating Mark Zuckerberg head, always a worrying thing. OK, Donald Trump has filed his lawsuit against the BBC in a Florida court last week. The damage,$10 billion if the corporation lose the case. Charlotte what do you make of what's been presented so far Just on that I mean just because he says he wants 10 billion dollars doesn't mean even if he won that they would ever give him 10 billion dollars just to start I love the idea that everyone has to pay like a triple licence fee here it's like a triple rollover licence fee to pay off Donald Trump Would anyone though? Would we just be like well we're not paying Donald Trump but yeah I mean that is kind of what makes it so unusual as a case that kind of any damages that would be paid would be from licensed payers ultimately, not just like, you know, a media company's coffers.

11:52But I mean, I'm still pretty sceptical about his chances. So I know he's managed to get some broadcasters in the US to settle about various things that, you know, arguably they really shouldn't have done. But in this case, he's suing in Florida. um the documentary you know you it wasn't on tv in the us it wasn't um on iplayer he's saying you could watch it on britbox i mean really how many people but also i don't think you could yeah and like an episode was a panorama i think was on britbox but not this one okay yeah and then but and then he's saying but they could have watched it with a vpn it's like well you could say that about in any jurisdiction any ever then like how do you I mean in in the UK um it's actually more kind of claimant friendly and libel but he was too late on that because he should have um he would have had to file it within a year of the program uh and so that would have been October um but it's pretty telling that just no one had you know noticed or worried about it in that whole year and that's kind of why that law exists so that you can't just go wait a minute that was a bit unfair is in the if it was in the uk isn't there a limit on punitive damages like to 300k i mean it would have been yeah that would have been thousands yeah um i just really think that um um the bbc needs to um continue sticking up for itself and defending it and and not settle because um it's kind of a wider principle and just just quite a silly case yes the bbc did something made an error yes but that doesn't mean it it's that doesn't really mean it was that like you know hugely libelous or in a kind of litigious sort of way i mean alex the other media companies in the u.s uh they settled and they probably could have easily won their court cases as well um is it in the bbc's interest to uh settle with the prez that's such a difficult balance right Because it could be.

13:52It's Florida. No one knows. So I think there are a couple of things going on. I think the first thing is I know of many senior editors within many newsrooms that if it is under a certain figure, I'm not saying that publicly, but there's a number. If it's under that and you don't need to admit liability, they pay it to make it go away. And that happens across most newsrooms. And unsurprising, that number is significantly lower than$10 billion. dollars so there's that and the bbc according to i forget one of trump's allies on the today program was talking about uh if they paid 10 million it would go away but then suddenly the bbc is admitting and so at least the bbc for the moment while it reaches this is there a case to answer our right to fight but the second if there is a case to answer if it turns out the britbox did broadcast it in some way there were enough people in florida so desperate to watch a panorama documentary that they're willing to go number one they need to be a brick box subscriber number two they don't have too much power loads of vpns and even if they i guess even with the vpn stuff they can probably show how many people totally watched it and it's the trump's claim is that there's massive economic damage to his brand value and significant damage and injury to his future financial prospects so this is i've already been through a lawyer with this so we could according to forbes very careful to cite it the president has gained three billion dollars in wealth since taking office and trump managed a 50.5 percent of the popular vote in the 2024 presidential election compared to 46.8 in 2020 so i did very well in florida but then also it's florida so i went down the rabbit hole with this and there is a there is a statute within florida that essentially makes slut shaming um criminalized you can go to prison for slut shaming and it has been cited in cases as recently as 2023.

15:41And so the Florida statute book and the Florida precedent book, and that's the reason that Trump has filed it there, it's because it's an unusual place when it comes to statute and precedent law and all manner of different places still exist. That particular law is from the 1880s, even before then. And so if there is a case to answer, then the BBC, either it gets into the deep weeds of what this case means or they settle, or they use it as marketing. And that's what Katie Raz at the BBC was saying actually if you want to reach a left-leaning US audience go against Trump suddenly you have the best advertising you could possibly imagine and that could be they're never going to say it publicly but that could be a genius master strike because it's not going to be 10 billion it's not going to be 5 billion.

16:22Charlotte if the BBC get away with it probably in Trump's terms do you think it will do bad things for the BBC operation in the US? No because I think I mean I agree with Alex and also the BBC are going for since July like an online paywall in the US so I mean again you kind of don't need everyone to love the BBC you need enough people that would pay for the BBC and there's there's certainly particular demographics that that you can then target that and there's definitely enough anti-Trump people I mean obviously that doesn't really fit with the BBC. The BBC doesn't want to be the anti-Trump people.

17:02That doesn't fit with their whole impartiality deal. But maybe it'll be an accidental byproduct. Yes. Okay, staying with the BBC, the government launched its green paper for charter renewal, laying out the parameters for discussion. Charlotte's Daily Mail's headline on this story was, BBC could scrap licence fee show adverts and put hits like the line of duty behind a paywall under labour reform. Is that a fair summary? I mean, that's all in there, technically. Labour, I mean, they were very, it was very couched and vague on like, these are all things we could do. It didn't really actually give a hint on what they were thinking.

17:42Obviously, they're just putting it out there and they want responses. But yeah, the things that stood out to me were we could have subscriptions for like historic content or maybe the more commercial content. Yes. Although it didn't really suggest how it would define that. Handy. Yeah. And then obviously being able to have commercial advertising just across the BBC news website, BBC website, did suggest that they would keep the licence fee but reform it somehow, but it didn't really explain how it would reform it. I thought it was interesting that they offered lots of options, lots of advertising options, lots of things the BBC almost choose to do.

18:28they weren't that open to changing the way the government bit was funded so they said it's not going to be direct taxation it's not going to be a household charge so lots of flexibility on one side very little flexibility on their own side yeah and there was a line about the bbc world service that basically just said explore new ways of funding the bbc world service and it was like great i thought that maybe you'd be slightly further along the process than that because that again is a bit that a lot of it comes from the government and has been really struggling over the past few years. Alex? I think they've only just got the World Service funding back so I think that's probably why because after I think they're trying to work out what they do next they're spending a lot of time trying to work out what they do with digital and how on earth they get the many different devices and many different places around the world and all of those things sorted but I think for the BBC it's 40 ,000 words long who has a green paper that's 40 ,000 words long it is so long that you can't ask an llm how long it is it doesn't know and it refuses to tell you and you have to copy and paste and download a pdf it's horrible so i only know that because it took me like 15 minutes to find out do better um should the bbc charter be renewed yes should the should the it be more progressive yes but all of their sort of original ideas were idiotic so well they're not idiotic but they're they're a lot of them you can't will have an impact on the rest of the market so you can if you want to put advertising on television or radio that's fine it does destroy the existing tv and radio advertising market you could add subscription but the amount of people that would do subscription is would be even if you halved it you would double the price which would sort of mean that people couldn't pay for it i mean fundamentally they haven't what they need to decide is what is the size of a public broadcasting operation that we the government would like they never answer that question do they no they don't but the bbc has had its license fee frozen and in real terms it is so far down on where it should be and i so since 26 i think since 2016 or 2008 to remember the numbers it's sort of 30 in real terms which is significant for any any organization let alone a media one and so the bbc's total revenue is i think 5.9 billion pounds and only just over two-thirds of that comes from the license piece of the rest comes from advertising and then in comparison netflix is now 39 billion dollars or 29 billion pounds uh disney not apples and apples but that's 94 billion uh comcast again not apples and apples 123 billion so if we're looking for the bbc to do so much stuff and be the matter of public record you can either have two options where one is it goes on the public sector route it informs it educates and entertains it doesn't have to think about the commercial pressures of making doctor who slightly better CGI and having to pay Disney to do it.

21:10Or you can have this commercial monster and then a lot of the stuff that makes the BBC this magical, wonderful place of holding power to account in an era where there aren't people in local courtrooms, there aren't people doing those deep dives into migration law and all the nitty gritty bits that there is no commercial imperative to do. No, there is no commercial possibility being able to do. Those will all be left behind because they won't make money. But nobody wants to pay for it. The government ideally doesn't want to pay for as little as possible so it can say to the public, oh, we've reduced the license fee.

21:41From an advertising perspective, none of the other operators want it to get into the advertising world. Punters, consumers, would rather not pay their license fee or would rather it was smaller. And that's the BBC's fault. It's a reframing, re-narrative shift. If you think about the way that the BBC is still held to people's hearts, BBC is the most trusted news brand. BBC is the most watched brand. BBC is the most loved brand. People, well, 94 % of people use the BBC in some way. Why is that happening at the same time that everyone hates the BBC and doesn't want to fund it? What is your marketing message?

22:12How do you build that entire public affairs policy around reframing it at the same time as your director general is leaving and your CEO of News is leaving because of some of the which is the lack of reframing and the lack of narrative shift around the BBC? And so much of the work Lisa Nandy has to do and the BBC themselves have to do is work out how to convince a public who love the BBC that they actually love the BBC. But we talked about this on the podcast before, the people who are against the BBC, to have the BBC News website, if it was smaller, if you're the Daily Mail or Telegraph or anybody else, that's a good thing.

22:47It is an aligned view that a smaller BBC does help competing news organisations. And as was pointed out in the paper, public trust in all news media has significantly dropped isn't it charlotte yeah very much um but yeah as alex says like bbc is at the top of that list um yes a lot of um the um kind of legacy news publishers in the uk um are generally very angry at the bbc for existing existing bit like yeah stepping on their toes with with some of the stuff that the digital operation does now but I would say the other side of the argument is that there are those types of stories that the real public service and investigative stuff that if it's not commercially as commercially viable and then you know a lot of the other news organizations are having a really hard time like that's what we're reporting on all the time so shouldn't there be a BBC that does do that stuff regardless of the commercial um benefit of it and that has to be some sort of funding as we're discussing but should it be just left doing the unpopular stuff should it just be doing the stuff that no one else wants to do and i think that's kind of what the news organizations want you know they don't want it to do the the stuff that's maybe more clickbaity or more fun or like more lifestyle stuff um it should just be doing the real um yeah public service the the kind of bread and butter of what that would have used to be.

24:21But I'm not saying, you know, which way is right or wrong, but that's kind of the two sides on the news side of things. And they're concerned about, they said this week, about, yeah, potential adverts on the website as well, and that would hit them even harder than just the BBC's existence already has. Every review of the BBC for the last 50 years has said the same thing, which is the licence fee is the least worst option. Will they manage to do it for the fifth time? it's not the least worst option i mean a more progressive thing where actually people were in the same way as income based and a more progressive tax would be on people's income so they could pay what they could afford so that's it's perhaps the most practical least worst option because we already have it and changing is against anybody i'm still i'm still pushing what i keep saying and i keep saying on the media club because this is obviously the way to influence all government opinion is it should be on council tax because it's progressive it's connected to the scale of your house but the government don't want to get into that because they've got their own problems with council tax.

25:20If you're trying to justify council tax as an equitable, sensible route of taxation, that's a whole different conversation. When we return, the audio industry receives an early Christmas present. We'll see you in a sec.

25:40Hello, Media Club listeners. Patrick here from Podcast Discovery, the podcast marketing company, where this week we've been thinking about going to the gym. That's because everyone's thinking the same thing, which is why podcast platforms and critics love to feature health and wellness shows all throughout January. Do you have one? Play your cards right and it could be you on the front page. Find out how by getting in touch at podcastdiscovery.com. That's podcastdiscovery.com. You join us in another of Podshop's new studios, supping our mulled wine. Well, it is Christmas. And if you like the sound or look of that, you should contact Podshop Studios.

26:15It's where we record the Media Club every week. Each studio has its own distinct look and feel. We've got a lovely sort of fireplace-esque set this week, complete with artificial daylight streaming through the set window. Behind me there. They're all professionally designed and fully equipped for broadcast quality video recording. Check out the whole range at podshoponline.co.uk. And they're offering Media Club listeners 25 % off your first booking, the perfect Christmas gift. just head to podshoponline.co.uk Welcome back here's a few stories we've been talking about in the club this week the audio industry will have a seat on the creative industries council the campaign headed by audio UK will mean the trade body can shape funding priorities workforce development and the future direction of the creative economy congratulations to the team for their concerted efforts this year SkyQ is on its last legs the satellite box can no longer be bought from the Sky store, but will continue to be supported by the broadcaster for a while yet.

27:19It does signal the end of satellite TV, with Sky pushing customers to sign up for the Sky Stream dongle or a Sky Glass TV, both being internet TV solutions. And just as we were putting the show out last week, the British Journalism Awards were announced. A scoop of the year went to the newsagent and the Daily Mail, who revealed the huge data breach affecting thousands of Afghans. Channel 4 won the lion's share of the top prizes. Links to all of our stories are available on our sub stack. Just go to themediaclub.com and sign up for free. You'll get a weekly update about the show and the brief newsletter talking about all the other things that media podcasts have been gabbing about in the past seven days.

28:01Sign up for free at themediaclub.com. Charlotte, the Journalism Awards, that's your thing. good night, you talked about it earlier worthy winners? oh yeah, I mean obviously I've got to say that but some really really good ones the kind of big moments of the night that I would highlight, so Cathy Newman of Channel 4 News got journalist of the year and interviewer of the year for her work on the John Smythe scandal and her interview with Justin Welby which led to him being the first forced resignation of an archbishop um and she spoke really um movingly on stage like a she had a message from one of the victims of john smythe and kind of um you know why it mattered so much that channel 4 news had pursued this for years and kind of got the story out there um in a similar vein um a producer called keaton stone um and uh the team he worked with at the bbc won investigation of the year for their work on the al-fayed um abuse allegations and that that's something that um yeah keaton stone had been working on for years and years by himself and then like five or six years and then eventually took it to the bbc kind of had to you know as you with the bbc that's not like a quick process so kind of after a while got them um found the right team to pick it up and then um kind of made this amazing documentary like loads of people had tried to do al-fayed stories before and um like legally really struggled so um he he was really disappointed that they'd only got it out after uh it was about a year after he died but he's still glad that kind of that um kind of corrects the narrative about him i suppose um and also al-fayed was like aware of it before he died because he was already getting all the legal letters and everything and then the third one I would just highlight was a journalist called Malek Al-Tantes who's a Palestinian journalist and she was the Guardian's Gaza correspondent for about 18 months she's now come to the UK to study journalism and she got the Marie Colvin Award and the New Journalist of the Year Award and she was clearly so overwhelmed by how surreal it must be to suddenly be in this room where 500 journalists are giving you a standard ovation and a couple of months earlier you know she'd been in this actual war zone like absolutely bizarre but um very well deserved like her if you read her her work on the guardian it's it's definitely you know it's just some of the best kind of from the ground um in terms of like relaying that emotional um um what's actually going on um to to real people great and alex i know that um coming up on your podcast crashed you're doing some predictions for 2026.

30:48How would you know that? I don't know. What themes came from your contributors and yourselves? So I think there are a couple of anonymous ones that are most important. I think the end of human, or the reduction of migrants' rights is a really big prediction. That's not really directly related to tech, but it will be the 2026 is likely to be the year of comeuppance. So actually 2025 has been seen as this year where ChatGPT didn't really launch anything new. Apple launched an iPhone that was slightly better. All of the AI policy is nearly there, but not quite. And so 2026, for media, this so-called Google Zero that was definitely meant to happen.

31:26By the end of 2026, I think I've probably been on this podcast saying that Google Zero was going to happen. So Google Zero is basically when they stop linking out to websites and start giving you the answers directly. If you look at the top of most of your results, it'll have that sort of AI smush at the top, some of which is useful, some of which is nonsense. and so it was expected that AI would move and LLMs would move quicker and that you wouldn't need to click through, it would give you the answer. And it's expected now that next year, but then we could say this every year, it's going to be where things really start moving towards that and it's where there will likely be a number of AI companies floating on the stock market and that's when it really gets serious.

32:00That's when the big money comes out and that's when it gets really big, particularly for media, which is already struggling. If you look at where traffic is already shrinking, it's going to get even worse if you think the average news site, you'd know this better than me, is that 40 % search traffic, something like that? Yeah, depending on what study, but around that, yeah. That's going to shrink. And so 40 % of a site's traffic just vanishes into the abyss. What does it replace it with? And publishers haven't been quick enough into direct traffic, into working out community and building out Web3, all the fragmented communities and building out relationships that way.

32:34Charlotte, is everyone worried about Google Zero? Is anybody really grasping the little? um I mean yes definitely it's still like a huge amount of what what people talk to us about and what comes up in interviews um some of the worst effects so far like Forbes for example are like consistently at the moment like double digit down year on year and I interviewed their CEO um recently and um you use that word community that is what they're trying to focus on so I've kind of said it already a couple times in this podcast um about different things but like it is about um not trying to have everyone that you possibly can in the way that it used to be it's about how do you monetize a smaller group of people that that really love what you do and will stick around um so that's the only real way to to survive it it's like um brands like the bbc you know with the public service journalism etc probably still have to try and reach as many people as possible but other brands um you know so like um the ft telegraph the times they all do you know pretty well financially but they're all subscription businesses they're not the biggest news websites in the UK so I think and that's why the ones that have historically been going for that scale and just and the advertising yeah so I mean Reach for example that as lots of people know they love an ad banner yeah exactly but now they're they've started Manchester Evening News and Liverpool Echo so far introducing premium paywalls which has extra content and is ad light So that's their kind of response.

34:09Is a Reach ad-like website just like 17 ad units and not 35? How are you going to get to the subscription module within a Reach website, within a Reach property? I don't understand. All of their user experience makes it impossible to enjoy. And I love a lot of the stuff that Mirror does and a lot of the stuff that Reach does. But their UX, their user experience, don't fall too far down the acronym rabbit hole, is unreadable. Well, speaking of giving value to people who are sticking around, I think we've just enough time for the Audio Network Media Quiz.

34:43This week's quiz is called Schedule This. No news stories to guess this week. Instead, a parlour game because it's Christmas. The rules are as follows. I'm going to give you a hole in the TV schedule. You have 30 seconds to come up with a format fit for it. using the traditional technique of choosing a talent then throwing them into an unlikely situation or format point. I'll judge which is the best and award points accordingly. And here, as it's a Christmas treat to score today's game live, it's Alex from Audio Network. Hello, hello, hello. Come and perch. Yes, Alex Audio Network is here. To live score today's game.

35:34It's lovely to know that you're real. That's excellent. That's great. Okay. Everybody ready? They look shocked, which is what we like on the Media Club. Here's your first hole in the schedule. Both can use phones to help them. With Strictly over for another year, we need a new shiny floor show to fill 7pm on BBC One. something that lifts the spirits possibly with a national treasure at its heart so 30 seconds for strictly strictly replacement in the new year your time starts now and Alex from Audio Network please find a theme tune for that as well so Alex from Audio Network what are you thinking typing away to get to that so when I think strictly I think showbiz glamour glitz so Big bands, orchestral, slightly funky as well.

36:32Maybe that can be helpful for you too as well. Okay, I think that's probably 30 seconds up. Alex Audio Network, give us a blast of what you found.

36:45Trumpets. Glanner.

36:51Pretty good. Have we got a name for that? That is called The Player. The Player. Okay, what do our players have for this round? Charlotte, what are you going to pitch us? My national treasure is Bob Mortimer. Oh, good, good. And he is going to have to be herding dogs. Well, he's not really, but the talent are dogs. They're doing a dog show, essentially, but there's kind of some dancing elements. I'm picturing some cute little skirts on the dog. And then we'll probably have some people like Jason Manford doing the judging. I like it. That sounds adorable. you've channeled that Alex what have you got Ross Kemp's drill fiasco okay so Ross Kemp national treasure particularly now he's in the quiz scene is it a quiz if you're walking over yeah there are quiz questions in there drill underrepresented on national television oh the music drill yeah drill deeply deeply underrepresented on national television so I'm not sure the theme tune is quiet and you can have other celebrities being deeply deeply flawed and not understanding anything and it really ages people terribly But it will show emerging talent.

37:56And then they can be shown how to really engage with drill music in an effective, pluralistic manner, rather than just assuming it's just for bad people. I thought it was going to be about drill bits and about drills that went wrong. That's not prime time. That's late night TV gold. OK, that's good. Both excellent starts. And way better than I'd expected, to be honest. I think the music can be adapted like a drill version. Yeah, maybe. Yeah, just layered on top. Okay, I think 20 points each. We're going to start off high, 20 points each. Okay, question number two. I need something for the 8pm New Year's Day slot on ITV1.

38:40I guess Alex Audio Network, we're looking here for something dramatic. A chance to introduce a new character to the nation. Maybe some intrigue. Are we going drama? It doesn't have to be, but it's special. It's New Year's Day. So there's an opportunity to either launch something new or have a one-off. The Traitors, I think, previously had a big New Year start, so they were trying something different. So I think that's probably about 30 seconds. Alex from Audio Network, what have you managed? Give us a blast. I chose something with pensive strings, something with a bit of a build.

39:19I can see dark moors. I can see someone escaping from something, a hospital. all could fit it all. It's good. It's good. Other Alex, what have you managed for ITV 8pm New Year's Day? I've gone for something more reality show and it's Wayne Lineker's Hangover. Wayne Lineker's Hangover, okay. It is an as-live broadcast of exactly what happens in Wayne Lineker's house at 8pm on New Year's Day after Wayne Lineker is more Wayne Lineker on New Year's Eve. I feel that the music is how we would all feel after watching that. That's good, that's good. Charlotte, what have you managed? Okay, well, I really just let into the cliches, so it's got to be Martin Compton, and he's a new dad, and his wife has been kidnapped, and it's all on him to find out what's happened.

40:08That's excellent. I think both can work. I'm going to give you 15 points for that, because it's aligned with the music. Yours is better. And they pay our bills, and just 10 points for their other Alex. Okay, one more to go. a one-off stunt documentary for Tuesday night at 9pm on Channel 4. So we sort of saw this year, Channel 4 always likes jumping on a bandwagon or two. Maybe Alex from Audio Network, I'm thinking dark and moody underscore, taking down a rabbit hole, something like that. Chuckling, that's always a bad sign. Right. A lot of hard work from the teams there. I think that's probably about 30 seconds.

40:53Alex, Audio Network, what were you thinking? I'm thinking building drama, mysterious guitars, very building. So this is called Steady State.

41:10Good for some VO. It would be excellent. Okay, Charlotte, what have you got? So this is a one-off stunt documentary, Tuesday night, 9pm Channel 4. The conspiracy theories for the hot air ballooning world. Someone died falling from a balloon. Why are you laughing? Was it deliberate? Was it an accident? But actually, who's funding these balloon trips? Big balloon. It's all about big balloon. Ian McEwen is funding that particular. Alex? I've gone for more reality shows. Celebrity first date, Winter Olympic special. So a stunt show where the dates happen on the toboggan, happen on the downhill slopes.

41:50and they could only talk mid-event. So they can find romance only in the luge. I've watched that. You've gone very broad on one-off stunt documentary, but 15 points because in telly in 2026, you've got to think outside the box. Well, it started off as Celebrity First Age on Ice, but I thought that wasn't quite stunty enough. Okay, well, I get 15 points for you for trying something different and 10 points for you, which means it's a draw for everybody because it's Christmas. I feel like you've been hard done by it. congratulations for your hard work uh thank you alex more dear network lovely to see you in person and of course anybody can do this themselves can't they yeah so they can just submit a brief to our website and me and a few other creatives can help them find the perfect tracks for their projects and thank you all uh so um before we break for christmas how can people keep up with your uh with your good work uh alex not from audio network uh so first thing follow crashed podcast on any good podcast platforms or on any of the social networks at Alex Huds, A-L-E-X-H-U-D-S.

42:53And what's in Crashed? It's the tech podcast about everything else is our little tagline. So we talk about everything from the death of democracy to Mr. Blobby to all sorts of stuff around what happens when Keir Starmer is challenged in May and what that means for the tech sector and what the tech US trade deal means, all of this, anything to do with technology. And it's really broad remit around philosophy and around arts, around politics, around policy and everything else. Great. And Charlotte? pressgazette.co.uk as always I'm guessing people listening like podcasts so we've got one called the future of media explained which is fortnightly and I don't post on social media much but LinkedIn's the most likely so come find me and add me there and Alex I guess audionetwork.com yeah there's a contact us page on our website so you can just submit an email that way lovely and thank you for joining us as well I've been Matt Deegan the producer was Matt Hill It was a Rethink Audio production with video support from Podcast Discovery.

43:48Have a great Christmas and New Year and we'll see you in 2026.

44:16On Thursday, Britain's first black member of parliament, who was surprisingly pro-slavery. And on Friday, long before the national mourning for Princess Diana, the nation stopped for Lord Nelson's funeral. That's Today in History with The Retrospectives. Ten minutes each weekday, wherever you get your podcasts.